Driven: 1988 930 - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

It's an aquired taste, but surprisingly fulfulling once you have cracked the clutch/gearchange. Other bits are insignificant IMHO

Have to say that most supercars of that age had bad driving positions,some a lot worse than the 930.You would be surprized how quickly you become acustomed to it.I am amazed that you found the steering light,mine was very heavy! As Danny says,its an aquired taste. Steve >> Edited by sb930turbo on Monday 6th January 21:54

In 1991 I owned a 1986 one of these things. I had wanted a 911 Turbo for years but when I should have been able to afford one (the late 80's) the prices went through the roof (the yuppie era). When the dream was finally realised I survived for 11 weeks with it and was very happy to sell it. I replaced it with a 928GT which was twice the car. Again,in 2000, I decided a 993 would be needed. It survived a deal longer but still, aside of the looks, I really don't know what the fuss is about. I conclude that some people are just not cut out for 911 things, and despite a basic liking of them, I do get fed up with their shortcomings fairly quickly. Along with TVR's my wife has been instructed to hit me over the head with a silly stick if I suggest I might buy another !!

RUF 3, we are obviously very different, I own a TVR as well!

Thom - you don't mention the most important attribute of this car, it's performance! Surely this cannot have left you unimpressed? No disrespect to 944s (which I have driven and are great cars) but a 930 must surely have felt like a rocket by comparison? The rest of the things you mention are quirks which in my opinion give the car character and make driving it different to most other things on the road. I do most of my day to day driving in a boring 3-series Touring and taking out my 930 is always an event. Still, life would be boring if we all valued the same things in a car! Chris

Interestingly, in the 911's defence, the attributes vary enormously from model to model. An early 3.2 Carrera feels a different car completely to a 993 - although Thom may still dislike a few 'family' elements, like the floor mounted pedals or fixed steering wheel. Anyway, Thom's points applied to a 964RS... 1° appalling driving position Nope, it's just about perfect. The Recaro race seats help. Pedals are slightly offset and floor hinged, though, and the switchgear may take a little getting used to (but remember it is not as insane as some 911s as it has less switches for electrical items). I'd give it 8/10 - you can even heel and toe with a bit of practice. 2° loooooooooooong gearlever stroke Not so in the short throw G50/10 - or even a normal 3.2, 964 or 993 variant of the G50. Lovely feel and action, very precise, and nicer than a 944's - and as Thom knows, I owned a turbo and S2 for a couple of years. Perfectly judged ratios for a sports car - pulls top speed at the rev limiter according to a friend who saw 175 on the clock in his. 3° loooooooooooong clutch pedal stroke Not long in mine. This can normally be adjusted anyway. Floor mounted action a bit strange however. 4° no rest place for the left foot I had a foot rest in mine, mainly to brace yourself when cornering hard. Plenty of room for one as pedals slightly offset. Mine was in boy racer drilled alloy. 5° pedals not aligned with the steering wheel True, but never a massive problem. Not as bad a BMW M1 I drove! 6° funny ventilation LOL, yeah, but the 964 onwards has a more modern climate control system, and my only comment was that it never got cold enough on hot days. Air con solves that, though. You get hot air more rapidly on a cold day through a 911's system than a water cooled car's. And my 964RS even had the excellent windscreen demist 'superblower' function. Brilliant. This gets rid of the mist problem you encountered, Thom. 7° Wooden brake feel (car fitted with no ABS) Again, try a 964RS or later model. Superb brakes, tons of feel. Fade free. The 964RS has 965 Turbo four pots at the front and Cup car four pots at the back, slowing down something weighing 1190kgs. So don't hate 911s just yet, Thom >> Edited by domster on Tuesday 7th January 10:49 >> Edited by domster on Tuesday 7th January 12:30

If you are not happy with the driving position/pedal offest of a 911 try a LHD car, you will find that although not perfect, things do fall to hand or foot rather better IMHO

That is a good point, although I presume Thom drove a LHD 930, as he lives in France.

Actually, not. I guess that's because I had the opportunity to get in other pretty faster cars already. I suppose you haven't been in a 944 Turbo Cup, you would understand what a really fast car is edited: I wish I'll have the opportunity to sample other models of 911 in the future, just to make sure they really are cars from another era; sorry but apart from the nice light steering, driving this 930 was even worse than what I had expected >> Edited by Thom on Tuesday 7th January 21:57

No never have. I did have a loan of a 944 Turbo for a weekend once though and that was a lot of fun and plenty fast but (though it might seem a strange thing to say) everything was a bit easy. I think what I like about the 930 is that it is challenging and I know that I have got a long way to go to master it. I reckon if I still have it in a couple of years time I will still be learning how to exploit it. With the 944 Turbo I found its limits in a weekend. Fun while it lasted but would pretty soon cease to be exciting. All IMHO of course! Chris

I'm sure Derestrictor's 490bhp Turbo 4, or Daz's 996TT would impress you more in the performance stakes, Thom. As you say, it will be worth you driving a few more 911 variants. I've still got a 10 Euro note on you owning a 911 in the future at some point, BTW

"Good luck, Jim..."!

I once had a lift to the station in a Ferrari 355. it was raining and the wipers didn't clear the whole screen, can you believe it? What crap cars Ferraris are, you'll never catch me buying one, I bet the F40's just the same too...and the 288 GTO and forget the Enzo too...to coin a phrase "I really don't know what the fuss is all about". Dom, sold the RS then? Wotugotinstead?

Rubystone. WOW! You have actually been in a FERRARI?!? I'd give my right nut for a go in one of those!!! Don't know why everyone gets so excited about these Porky type cars though. Bloody 'orrible if you ask me. Seems that Domster has realised this and thus sold his one rather hastily. He'll get a Caterham next you wait and see. Yep, a proper bloody car with a bit of heritage!

Still. How can you make your mind up about any car after 20 minutes?? Unless you are me of course. Made my mind up about plenty of cars without even being in them. Surely the thing hadn't even warmed up by then though??

Yeah, I wouldn't slag off Ferraris rubystone - they sound nice at 8k revs, and they use less Fiat Uno bits than they used to. I'm a fan, for sure. SL - I have already owned two Caterhams (used to commute in them for two years), and was indeed tempted to go for a Superlight R at Red Baron time. However, it looks like the Red Baron will have to go to make way for: 1) House deposit, or rather 'garage deposit'. 2) Ultima starter kit, as these are a tad safer than Caterhams I reckon (my biggest worry with them these days) and have a lot more top end. This is why the garage is needed. 3) BMW E36 3 series V8, professional conversion using a 4.0l BMW engine, as a runaround/something interesting until the Ultima gets assembled. Cheers Domster

Domster, Hope you're going to give early warning here if/when you do decide to sell the RS. I could potentially be interested. I must have listened to you sing the praises of RS's for long enough that I'm getting tempted to try one! Presume the V8 in the E36 must be tuned otherwise isn't it going to be less powerful than an M3 Evo which you can pick up for sensible money? Chris

Hi Chris If it goes on 'the open market' I have a few people to email, and will include yourself. It looks like my mechanic may buy it and turn into a trackday monster, though, and I am happy for this as it will 'keep it in the family' and let me have a play in the Red Baron now and again. Sadly, sensible house purchases and mental Ultima projects are tempting me to sell. The 911RS is the best 'sporting' Porsche I have ever driven, by a country mile - far better than a 993 C2, 964C2, 965 Turbo, 3.2 Carrera , 944 Cab, 944 Turbo, 968 etc. IMHO. The BMW will push out around 300bhp, in between the 286 and 321bhp outputs of the M3s, but will have more torque than any variant. It will also be nicely different. Cheers Domster

...and a steal at £9k eh Dom? Was tempted myself at that price too - is the conversion a top notch professional job?

I haven't made my mind up completely yet. It's just that it felt even worse than what I had imagined. I'm not even willing to give it another try actually, they're cars I dislike from the start: - ugly shapes - awful noise So no matter how fast and good the later models actually are, they just don't fill the bill with me. edited: I admit I was biased because I bought a 944 but even if I sold it now a 911 would definitely be the last car I would buy. >> Edited by Thom on Friday 10th January 18:39

Thom, me old mucker; I can't stay silent any longer. All the cars usually discussed on PH have certain distinct strengths (and shall we say 'characteristic quirks,' too!) but your critique of the most successful performance road car of all time is frankly harsh. Ok, I accept it's your opinion and I understand that aesthetics form part of any car buying decision making process. But, even if you're no huge fan of the uber beetle per se, to sound so dismissive of so historically significant an automotive species is tanatmount to profound sacrelige. The 911 really is like a fine wine (no bull, honest!) and the bouquet of the performance envelope ripens gloriously with time. Dynamically, the only cars I'm aware of that beat later 911s are newer 911s and perhaps, some of the silly Japenese EVOs ans Skylines. Criticising 911s based on the drive in a car from the late 80s is akin to writing off Maranello's current finery because the 328 had shoddy brakes or the 348 was just a dog... Domster's the man for this particular season and the current standard bearer is Dazren but as much as I love the plethora of automotive megadom that's around today, the (993)911 remains one of the very finest things I've ever piloted... Frankly, if it was crap, I'd have ditched it long ago. Cheers, DeR. P.S. Apologies if that appeared like 'lesson from bearded Porsche bore in ropey woollen jumper!'

Whatever you say, Derestrictor. I'm no Porsche enthusiast and it makes me a bit upset that you British folks can be so impressed by them. Please let me explain my point; Regarding motoring matters Porsche is EVERYWHERE in France; in people's mind it is the first car maker which springs to mind, and when I say "people" it ranges from the average numpty who thinks a sports car is only a provocation from wealthy persons to the merely well off wishing to have some events on four wheels even though he couldn't tell what the capacity of the engine and where the oil filler cap are. As a young petrolhead who has had the luck to receive what I would call now a "decent motoring education" from both Father and Uncle - Uncle runs a Lola T290 and currently rebuilds a Chevron B8, if ever someone cares; both have spent thousands of hours in mechanical company of the finest post war four-wheeled machinery from Great Britain (IMO) - I find quite depressing to see such an enthusiasm for the car which undeniably represents one of the greatest engineering prowess on the motoring scene of the last century but as such also embodies rather an easy "way out" to choose the ticket for entering the sports car world whereas there are quite other interesting cars on offer on Her Majesty's sacred land, if you see what I mean Tastes are what they are, no problem with this of course, and all of the above IMHO. Please forgive me for giving the impression to live in another century but I'm convinced there is a lot of fine people out there wasting their time on cars which (IMHO again) do not deserve to be owned by so smart blokes... >> Edited by Thom on Friday 10th January 21:21

Hey Derestrictor, as you can see, my irony was wasted completely on young Thom. I gathered from his postings on the Cayenne debate that his opinions were not garnered from personal experience but more from what he'd read...I've driven some real moosy 944s and they're bags of shite in that state...doesn't mean the 944's a dog though does it?...Equally I've driven tired old 911s and they're not pleasant either. Thom, in the UK it isn't too difficult to blag a drive of a 996 from your local OPC, try it sometime and then report back on your 911 experience - you owe it to yourself...

Hi Thom, I'm talking from a perspective of having lived with (and for protracted periods, without) a Cerbera. As well as a Chimp. I sincerely believe that Porsche, in some quarters, are a victim of what one might call psychological associations and this can predispose some people to negativity. Without wishing to start the Tiv v. Pork tedium for the nth time (I think both are sublime for the record), I simply cannot fathom the logic of opposition amongst some performance car fans to (at least) some of Stuttgart's output over the years. Ito road car 911s, what do we have? My earliest memories were of the lightweight, early 70s Carrera RS, replete with 'Carrera' decals amidships. A classic as surely as any contemporary Dino 246. Then, as Ferrari's Boxer and Ferruccio's wow-mobile fought for supremacy, everyone was stopped dead by this upstart interloper, the first turbocharged Porsche. It created a stir that has became a benchmark which to this day (extreme exceptions aside) is usually the zenith of the supercar dynamic. Later on, the 964RS was almost dismissed for being 'too' raw! Now, as track days blossom and people lay claim to being serious drivers, the awesome joys of that particular monster are being re-realised by the congescenti. The 4WD system that first debuted on the 993C4 raised the dynamic pole vault still higher and in the mid-late 90s, my own little energised bundle came flying into the performance car consciousness. What was the car that the magazine of the same name saw fit to do battle with the Diablo SE of 1995? Relatively understated (in the extreme) by comparison, it was the 993TT. In that article, the reviewer commented on how, every time the Bolognese devil goaded him into right hoofed temptation, he couldn't help noticing how the little car was pegged onto his pitch forked tail... ...and years later, when the Murcielago streaked ahead of F575M and Aston's Mondeo, sorry, Vanquish (that was uncalled for - really sorry), exactly the same thing happens - this time 996TT, resolutely welded to Satan's butt. It's not just pure speed though, of course. The ubiquitous terminology of 'race bred heritage and pedigree' genuinely does shine through and what the RS started the 993GT2 certainly carried on and even the later version, not to mention the GT3, have all rightly assumed modern classic status because of their genuine race series associations. There are no bigger patriots than me, Thom but trade is an unavoidable fact of island life. Whether it's a Kenyan boar's head on a platter, mounted in the vestibule, or a 928S4 in the garage, both would have been acquired because of what they were, not what some vague xenophobic subconcious impulse dictated I thought they said about me or my rutting capability. Anyway, when you buy arguably the most British of British and find the climate controls from a BMW staring back at you, I do rather think the argument dissolves. Don't let your passion for Tivs - which I genuinely share, believe me - obscure innate greatness. Sorry about that.

As many have said before a 911 has to be driven for some time to fully appreciate its many attributes.The more that it is driven the more it grows on the driver. This certainly applies to the 996(and the 930)anyhow. Steve >> Edited by sb930turbo (moderator) on Saturday 11th January 10:44

You didn't like the car then Thom. Oh well opinions vary, just look at the residuals. Someone wants em! I've currently got a modern porker, easy to drive and brutally efficient, but when finances and garage space allow I would still like to add a 1980's Carrera 3.2, either cabrio or speedster to the "harem". I drove an 87 cabrio a few years ago in Spain (in something called sunshine, anyone remember it), it had a lot of character, some may call some of the characterisitcs flaws, I believe you fall into this camp?. Some people like em, some people don't. You pay your money and take your choice. Enjoy your motoring. DAZ

My weekends are too precious to respond in length to such drivel. The 930 rocks.

My weekends are too precious also. I've just remembered what I've got in the garage. VROOOOMMM VROOOOOOM DAZ Going for a blast. cheers UV

Derestrictor, beautiful prose 'nuff said

Thank you, Rubystone. I hope the weather not too inclement on the morrow that my blackest, accelerative intentions are way laid. Hail to thee.

So you're going to trash the bollocks of your car then Dropped the car off at Chiswick OPC, saw a 993 Ruf Turbo R. Ummmmmmm.........

Derestrictor, Your points are a "cliché" (at least as much as mine, btw) I'm not interested in such a lecture so please next time don't bother making so many efforts to save a "lost soul"

Derestrictor's points are based on fact - the only thing cliched is your impressions. I beleive you admitted yourself that your impression of the 911 is based on driving just one example of a car you've never driven before. If the 930 you drove was only a 4 speed then your driving impressions are going to have been coloured to an even greater extent than if it was a 5 speed. I'm not going to try to save you Thom I think it's too late for that - I just hope for your sake Porsche build another front engined car for you to graduate to from your 944...hey, you and the Cayenne might be suited to one another you know...

I've often read that people who drive 944s are rather unimpressed by 911s of a similar vintage, but given the chance to sample a 993/996 find them a lot more to their liking. I think in Thom's case its also the styling that doesn't appeal, but i'd be interested to hear his opinions on a later model. I bought my 944 because of the following: RWD, sportscar styling, excellent handling, reasonably fast, practical, reletively cheap to maintain, reliable, great driving position, value for money - oh and it's a Porsche Have to wait a few years for a decent 993 to cost less than £10k though!

Thom, I got up early yesterday, carefully warmed my 930, then took it for a good blast on nice quiet roads bathed in lovely sunshine (being careful to watch out for frosty bits in the shadows!) As I enjoyed myself I actually thought of your posts (briefly!) and what you are going to miss out on if you close you mind to 911s in general and turbos in particular. I remembered the first time I ever drove a 944 and my impressions - very nice at the time but looking back not that different to some of the warmish everyday cars I was running around in at the time. Comparing that to my first time driving a 911 - a mate's 3.2 Carrera. Talk about culture shock! - it was just so different to anything I had been in to that point - I was completely underwhelmed. For a while (I'm ashamed to admit! ) I even convinced myself the whole 911 phenomenon was some kind of wierd mass hysteria. Anyway time passed and more exposure to the aforementioned and other 911s completely turned me around. The key is keep an open mind, one day you will get bored of the accessibility of the performance of your 944 and seek something more. When that day comes try spending a decent amount of time in a 911 then reconsider your opinions. I for one promise not to say told you so. The best things in life don't come easy and certainly not within a few minutes! Anyway hope this doesn't sound condescending, it's not intended that way. I just wouldn't want anyone to miss out the way I nearly did! Chris

The 944 is the last Porsche I will have owned. This "Porsche mass hysteria" really is getting on my nerves

Then why start a thread if you don't want anyone to respond to your point of view? Or is the problem that no-one agrees with you? Lighten up a bit! Chris

Thom, no offence meant seriously. In fact if I still had a 911 I'd let you have a go - I lost count of the number of anti 911 people who moved over from the dark side having driven my cars...admittedly one of them did have a relapse and went through a phase of owning 944 turbos...(fine cars and all that) but I'm happy to report he's now fully recovered and owns a Pewter 204 SC. ;-)

The aim of this thread was only to show that there was some people out there who were not ALL 911 enthusiats, that's all. I didn't even want to start any "debate" of any sort and really did not expect "off topic" answers. Anyway, if you don't mind I'm wishing not to take it any further as everybody wishes to have the last word. Enough said

I don't.

My 2p worth - short form: I drove a G50 Carrera 3.2 a few years back, not impressed, wouldn't spend my money on one. I drove a 92 Carrera 4 (964) about 2 years ago - thought it was expensive for what it was, wouldn't spend my money on one. Drove a beaten up 993 Carrera 4 last April and fell in love, bought my 993 C4S in August and sincerely think that the 4wd 993 is my perfect car. I'm about to move to the US, my toughest decision is whether to get another C4S or a 993 Turbo when i get there. So whilst i would never buy a 1988 930 i'd happily spend twice the money on a 993 and say it's good value. Some people just get on better with some cars than others. Doesn't mean anyone is right or wrong, just DIFFERENT. Thank goodness, what a boring place the world would be if we were all the same. www.VerySideways.com

I do apologise for airing my thoughts, based in no small part on experience of ownership but Thom, you must accept the repetitive nature of pro-911 eulogy - like Ferrari in a broader sense - it is an icon, so much of what was said was always going to be quite unoriginal. If you are so resolutely anti-911, for reasons that seem to be based on a combination of limited experience and illogical prejudice (other than 'not liking the shape or interior'), then fine. I think the pertinent point is/was that I probably share your immense passion for Blackpool's finest but am not so violently pro that or anti something else that I cannot entertain the possibility that another manufacturer might just make something similarly meritous at some point. Being 'a lost soul' sounds like an excuse for keeping one's eyes (and possibly ears) shut.

Sorry to go off topic for a post, but to reply to Rubystone... yes, it is good value and the conversion cost considerably more. Very professional job with 535i gearbox and uprated diff to cope with the torque. Schnitzered suspension, and an exhaust note to put even an M3 engine into the shade... Anyway, I think Thom has probably had enough pro-911 diatribe, and only time will tell whether he'll ever own another Porsche, let alone a 911... If he wants me to close the thread, I will do so, but some interesting points have been mentioned, so thanks to all who've contributed. Just say the word, Thom. >> Edited by domster (moderator) on Monday 13th January 10:22

Dom, they trust you to be a moderator?...I guess I might as well give up now ;-) Go buy the BMW and let's have a blat then - I'd like a go too, have been thinking about finding a decent E30 M3 Evo for every day use too.

It's alright Mark. I have nothing against ex-owners of pink cars, so you are perfectly safe here Good idea for blat at some point. Send me an email through my profile. I lost your email address when my office moved. Dod you mean E30 M3 or E36 M3? They did Evo variants in them both, but mine's an E36 and that's the better everyday proposition. The E30 M3s are good, I drove a Schnitzered up one which was fun, but they are very dated now. The E36 M3 never really excited me, but hopefully a stonking V8 will help on that front. Laters D

Yup I meant the E30 - I'm with you on the E36s - too soft, too much understeer for me and even in Evo guise didn't feel partucularly fast either. I've also heard that the brakes aren't up to much either but you can't aruge about the bang for the bucks they offer now. Have you actually bought the coupe yet?

No. Deal has been agreed, but sorting finances as we speak. This, and collection, will mean another week or two before I get it. Might be ready for Virginia Water meet.

Dom, Not a dark blue one badged as a 318iS is it? Pete www.VerySideways.com

Nope, it's black and has M badging, IIRC. I will get it debadged though. Cheers Pete D

Well well well... I wish I hadn't reported this driving impressions. Some of you have to understand I have no reason to change my point of view because this 930 I drove indeed felt very far from being what I call an "awesome" car (even though its owner insisted his car was a "clean" one). I admit it has been a bit easy from me to judge a car on such a short drive - and as such I fully respect Derestrictor's point on the "experience" provided by spending hours at the steering wheel of any given car but I doubt I will ever manage to enjoy a car I dislike from the start when it comes to the way it looks and to the way it sounds, regardless to its road and track abilities. Take an example: among the people here who reckon the Morgan Aero 8 body shape is "beyond a joke" (if ever there are some), do any of them actually have driven one? If so, have they changed their presumably negative opinion on the car after having found out about its fine handling? In other words, would they consider mentioning it on their "must have" list? I bet not. Of course the 911 falls in this category of very few sports cars which have achieved maturity through a constant development programm - like the Lotus Esprit, and like any given Porsche actually - and as such highly deserves respect for what it has achieved on the competition scene for the last 30 years until it died with the 993. But we all know this and it has been said a thousand times before, hasnt' it Derestrictor? As it happens I don't limit myself to praising a car on its on-paper credentials, on-the-road performance, on the engineering efforts that have been put into it and on the numberous races it has won. As a self-respecting PistonHeader I suppose I am not the only one to think that way. There is something else that makes us appreciate cars, like "flair", "presence" or "character". Of course everybody adjust these three ideas to their taste, and as such I am afraid I do not share the same passion as most people here in the PH Porsche forum, let alone the passion for the Porsche brand. Thinking of this 930 back again I even feel ashamed to know my 944 was designed and built by the same company who bothered developing this evolution of the VW beetle instead of dropping it while it was still time to do so. That is one of the reasons why today I am sad not to find a VW, Audi or any other badge on the bonnet of my 944 when I open the garage. Anyway I feel sorry some of my previous messages have made some people here wince. However my opinions are what they are and I stand by them; As Domster suggests I will try to drive some late 911 (964 or 993) if opportunity allows but I really doubt it will change my mind. Just please forgive me for being different in my tastes and in the way I (try to) express my ideas. We may be from the same planet but we definitely not belong to the same (motoring) world...

Besides it's YOUR opinion, which is relevant only to you.

20 minutes spent a the wheel of this...thing I will start with the bad points, if you don't mind: 1° appalling driving position I felt like seating at the bar; even though the seats are pretty much the same as that of the 944, it was impossible to move them back enough. (people might have been smaller in 1988 ) 2° loooooooooooong gearlever stroke Approximately twice as long as the 944's, extremely unprecise and "kaschlunk" feel 3° loooooooooooong clutch pedal stroke At first I thought I was too close to the pedals (see point 1) but when I pushed the clucth I found out I was not close enough! 4° no rest place for the left foot 5° pedals not aligned with the steering wheel 6° funny ventilation Even though I moved the seat forward in order to cure point 2°, I was not close enough to see out of the windscreen because the ventilation proved totally unable to get rid of enough mist 7° Wooden brake feel (car fitted with no ABS) Good points: 1° Light steering, so light I thought it was PA, which was not the case 1bis° Front of the car very light, virtually no understeer at all A good experience, after all. I had never driven a 911 before but now I can criticise in the know edited to add: why they sold more 911 in 1988 than 944 I definitely don't know... >>> Edited by Thom on Monday 6th January 20:28