Porsche GT Nurburgring Times --- drivers and tyres! - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I thought this might be an interesting discussion ... Look at how the times have changed ... drivers and tyres !!

I believe 718 GT4 time is missing from the above. The data I have says: Porsche 718 GT4: 7:28 Same time as 991.1 GT3RS time?

It wasn't on the Wikipedia summary of times ... the above is a screenshot of a spread sheet ... I'll add confirmed times with tyres and driver information ... Thanks !

Porsche announced today the 718 GT4 RS has set an official lap time around the Nürburgring Nordschleife of 7:09.3 at the hands of development driver Jörg Bergmeister. Onboard video of the lap can be seen above. The only modification, Porsche says, was a racing bucket installed for the driver's safety. The lap was set on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R tires, which will be available to customers as an option once the car goes on sale. That 7:09.3 time was set using the modernized method for recording laps, which includes the straightaway at the beginning of turn 13. If Porsche were going by the old method of recording 'Ring laps, which removes that straightaway, the GT4 RS set a lap time of 7:04.5. That's 23.6 seconds quicker than the normal 718 GT4 and less than 10 seconds slower than the mighty 918 Spyder. The above was reported by Road and Track ... So does the MR note on the GT4RS above need removing ? I guess it does ... And I'm guessing also that the 718GT4 was not on 2R's ?? 7.28:1 ?? But this makes the 911.1 GT3RS look suspiciously slow ? 7:20 is the figure from a 2015 car on Fastest Laps ... which must have been Cup 2's ... Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 14th January 10:21

718 GT4 was on Cup 2 N1 - official time, no video. 4RS was on Cup 2 R - official time, published video 4RS MR was on Cup 2 R - official time, published video Edited by TDT on Sunday 14th January 10:57

As for 991.1 vs 991.2 GT3 RS… Cup 2 vs Cup 2 R respectively and also major resurface of N’ring between those car generations and Kevin Estre in the 991.2 3RS

Good point. The ring does slowly change as surfaces are relayed / changed in sections of the track.

I was really surprised when the 991.2 GTS managed 7’23.8’’ back in 2017. Not bad for a regular model.

Updated ....

My former Cayman S 2.5L Turbo was at 7.46:70

So for 718 GT4 owners, the only GT3s worth upgrading to, performance wise are from 991.2 upwards. That is, if one sees this as an upgrade in the first place?

Interesting thing to throw in… 981 GT4 MR did 7m29 So taking that same improvement and applying it conservatively to 718 GT4 - say 10secs,(not factoring circuit improvements) puts the 718 GT4 MR at 7m18 on Cup2 N1? No official time was ever announced/published for 718 GT4 MR.

TDT said: Interesting thing to throw in… 981 GT4 MR did 7m29 So taking that same improvement and applying it conservatively to 718 GT4 - say 10secs,(not factoring circuit improvements) puts the 718 GT4 MR at 7m18 on Cup2 N1? No official time was ever announced/published for 718 GT4 MR. Impossible to say I'd have thought. Perhaps a big chunk of the gains of the 981 to 718 standard car were already realised in the 981 MR from setup/suspension improvements. The 718 MR gains might be more marginal over the 981 MR as it would be mainly engine/circuit changes with little to gain on setup/damping.

It would be interesting to see what the older cars such as 996 and 997 could do on the current surface with the latest Cup 2 tyres.

thegreenhell said: It would be interesting to see what the older cars such as 996 and 997 could do on the current surface with the latest Cup 2 tyres. Yes really there need to be a super test with same tyre, driver, day, conditions, or some super algorithm to apply a correction factor. It would be really interesting though, as we see some older gen cars on up to date rubber going very well these days.

isaldiri said: TDT said: Interesting thing to throw in… 981 GT4 MR did 7m29 So taking that same improvement and applying it conservatively to 718 GT4 - say 10secs,(not factoring circuit improvements) puts the 718 GT4 MR at 7m18 on Cup2 N1? No official time was ever announced/published for 718 GT4 MR. Impossible to say I'd have thought. Perhaps a big chunk of the gains of the 981 to 718 standard car were already realised in the 981 MR from setup/suspension improvements. The 718 MR gains might be more marginal over the 981 MR as it would be mainly engine/circuit changes with little to gain on setup/damping. Without a published time it’s hard to say, true, hence the presenting of the argument. I’m not sure I agree that 981 MR improvements were directly applied in the 718 GT4 as base car. The time improvement between the 2 base cars comes from engine, aero and tyres. The 981 MR spanned this gap, and in addition to package the car in the published lap also had some bodyweight lightening, lightweight forged wheels, Trofeo R and upgraded LSD… all of that to get to 7m29 which is still a little behind the bog standard 718 GT4 MR. It’s reasonable to suggest that the 718 gained more from the kit, which for this car includes more aero parts to make the already improved aero effect (over 981) work better, allowing higher cornering speeds and more stability. 718 GT4 with MR on Cup 2 N1 has higher cornering speeds in the published videos than standard 4RS on Cup 2 R, and the 4RS had Herr Bergmeister at the wheel. Edited by TDT on Sunday 14th January 19:40

Both Evo magazine and Fastestlaps.com list the 7:42 time for the 997.1 as being for the RS. Evo also quotes the RS as being 3 seconds faster than the non-RS, but I can't see any other sources for the non-RS time. The wikipedia page is ambiguous as the spec description could apply to either. https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/6461/porsche-911

TDT said: I’m not sure I agree that 981 MR improvements were directly applied in the 718 GT4 as base car. The time improvement between the 2 base cars comes from engine, aero and tyres. The 981 MR spanned this gap, and in addition to package the car in the published lap also had some bodyweight lightening, lightweight forged wheels, Trofeo R and upgraded LSD… all of that to get to 7m29 which is still a little behind the bog standard 718 GT4 MR. It’s reasonable to suggest that the 718 gained more from the kit, which for this car includes more aero parts to make the already improved aero effect (over 981) work better, allowing higher cornering speeds and more stability. 718 GT4 with MR on Cup 2 N1 has higher cornering speeds in the published videos than standard 4RS on Cup 2 R, and the 4RS had Herr Bergmeister at the wheel. I didn't say the 981 MR improvements were applied to the base 718 gt4. I meant that there was possibly less to gain for the 718 MR over the 981 MR than the 718 gt4 base car over the 981 because there would be little if any setup related gains to be eked out. Every gen of gt car has had damping tweaks for the new car over the old that has worked (sometimes considerably) better. The 991.2 gt3 for example i think is considerably better damped than the 991.1. It would not be a surprise if the 718 has had at least some of that improvement over the 981 in the same way. thegreenhell said: Both Evo magazine and Fastestlaps.com list the 7:42 time for the 997.1 as being for the RS. Evo also quotes the RS as being 3 seconds faster than the non-RS, but I can't see any other sources for the non-RS time. The wikipedia page is ambiguous as the spec description could apply to either. https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/6461/porsche-911 It was the sportauto superlap time that was the same I believe with von Saurma. 'Official' PAG literature claimed the 3s faster. Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 14th January 20:09

And then we try to factor in improvements in the track surface .... All very interesting and I'll update the list .... I may take out the interlopers that were there for context, they of course will stay above. A question for T ... do you think that the MR aero benefits of the 718 would be greater than those on a 981 .... and apart from the capacity difference of a 718 over a 981 (5%), what might be the effect of engine / transmission tuning on a fast circuit such as this ? And finally, why does the 991.1 GT3RS appear to be so much slower than the 991.2 which increased downforce by 8% and power by 4% ?? Cup 2R's and a better track surface ? Or braver drivers ?? Too many question which though interesting, we may not be able to answer. Interesting also that the increased aero on the 992GT3RS on this very fast circuit gains a little more in the corners than it loses in the straights ... around ? seconds more ?

And then to the next question, where will P find more pace for the next GT3 ? Hybrid boosters ?? Or will they brand an "MR" kit ??

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ChrisW. said: A question for T ... do you think that the MR aero benefits of the 718 would be greater than those on a 981 .... and apart from the capacity difference of a 718 over a 981 (5%), what might be the effect of engine / transmission tuning on a fast circuit such as this ? 981 MR aero was only the larger rear wing and increased AoA. 718 MR is comprised of increased AoA brackets and gurney flap for rear wing, along with underbody air guides from the GT2RS Clubsport, these make the rear diffuser more effective. Of course the underbody air guides can be added to a 981, but there is no diffuser to interact with. In any case we are not talking about real aero performance, rather than a better stabilising effect, but whatever it is, the 718 has ‘more’.

In terms of pace ... I was a middle runner in the Porsche Club Championship ... My modified 981 GT4 (not in its final version) has done 1.54's at Oulton, 1.58's at Zandvoordt, 2.47's at Spa, 1.19's at Donington ... 2.27?'s at Silverstone ?? ... I forget the rest ... My most fun scalp was at Zandvoordt with a 991.1GT3 driven by a racer at Zandvoort (my friend was in his passenger seat!) ... and very recently at Oulton Park overtaking a 997 GT3 4.0RS (also on Cup2's) driven by a better driver than I am ... (and instructor). One must therefore conclude that the GT4's provide a lot of options ... short of a 991.2 GT3RS ??? But we have to stop being shy about modifying ... it is after all mostly what Porsche (and Manthey) do for their next model ...

isaldiri said: I didn't say the 981 MR improvements were applied to the base 718 gt4. I meant that there was possibly less to gain for the 718 MR over the 981 MR than the 718 gt4 base car over the 981 because there would be little if any setup related gains to be eked out. Every gen of gt car has had damping tweaks for the new car over the old that has worked (sometimes considerably) better. The 991.2 gt3 for example i think is considerably better damped than the 991.1. It would not be a surprise if the 718 has had at least some of that improvement over the 981 in the same way. Definitely true that standard 718 GT4 has different type of ride performance than standard 981 GT4, giving a wider operating range, but there is still a significant step between that and what has been achieved with other packages, when it come to focus for track work. Front end rate is increased bringing a massive stabilising effect to the front and the rear. Rebound control is also much better so tyre stays in contact with the road and body movements more comprehensively managed. Ok yes for MR to MR gain… I agree and think that the performance gain for the suspension might be less, than the full gain it was in the 981. But the base car with PASM and too ‘soft front’ was already faster than 981 MR. I still think we are looking at 8-10secs down the road for car overall. Edited by TDT on Sunday 14th January 21:33

So the GT4 is a very good platform for development ... and in the event of a mistake much cheaper to repair than a GT3 ... And the learning is in the journey (P.S. I forgot Knockhill ... .58s ... ) (P.P.S In 34000 miles and 8 years I have never had a warranty claim ... but as shown, the car has been over-serviced). (P.P.P.S. How much has my specialist servicing saved me over OPC servicing to cover the unexpected ??) Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 14th January 22:01

ChrisW. said: In terms of pace ... I was a middle runner in the Porsche Club Championship ... My modified 981 GT4 (not in its final version) has done 1.54's at Oulton, 1.58's at Zandvoordt, 2.47's at Spa, 1.19's at Donington ... 2.27?'s at Silverstone ?? ... I forget the rest ... My most fun scalp was at Zandvoordt with a 991.1GT3 driven by a racer at Zandvoort (my friend was in his passenger seat!) ... and very recently at Oulton Park overtaking a 997 GT3 4.0RS (also on Cup2's) driven by a better driver than I am ... (and instructor). One must therefore conclude that the GT4's provide a lot of options ... short of a 991.2 GT3RS ??? But we have to stop being shy about modifying ... it is after all mostly what Porsche (and Manthey) do for their next model ... Last season, first full season in the 718… Zandvoort 1m54.4 Oulton 1m54.4 Goodwood 1m24.1* Donington 1m17.2* Silverstone 2m23.2* PCGB days with ‘mixed’ traffic, therefore appropriate caution and courtesy applied.* The car has plenty pace left in it that I can access with more good seat and without taking huge risk. The main thing with modifying is Porsche GB and dealer approach to warranty. Which is understandable but also kinda anti-Porsche as you have alluded to. Edited by TDT on Sunday 14th January 22:03

N-ring has got faster over time, I understand, which make comparison between models even more difficult

Agreed and as mentioned by T ... I wonder if there are any direct comparisons ?

I don't believe there are any same day, same driver comparisons for the ring, and even then, I suspect an hour or 2 of sun on the track, could change the laptime by a few seconds. I did find an article by Motortend testing a 991.2 gt3 pdk & manual on Willow Springs, both on Cup 2 tyres. Rand Pobst was the driver and he managed 1.24.66 in the pdk car, which had PCCB brakes and buckets, so was actually lighter than the manual car with sports seats & steel discs, which set a time of 1.24.86, only 2 tenths slower. Surprisingly close. Randy didn't use the flatshift feature either, which may have closed the gap further.

Tyre compounds change too….one Cup 2 might not be the same as a later one. I listened to an interview with a tyre tester a while ago. He said the tyre BMW homologated for the latest M3 was a PS4S but it actually was a composite of Cup 2 and PS4S rubber….basically half the tread width was Cup 2 and half PS4S. That’s worth a few seconds a lap but because we all see that it is still running PS4S it looks like the improved lap time is down to BMW’s engineering and not Michelin tyre tech……

Agreed ... hence the successive N numbers from Porsche ... and these being quoted where available on the times ... I am hoping that the track surface work / time advantage might be easier to decipher !