Highly modified GT3 Twin Turbo just won't sell... - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

No mystery Modded Porkers are sales death unless they're from a very well known tuner ie Ruf or, err... Ruf. Is this your car ? Link ? Edited to add: we've had modded 911s for years, they've never been an 'investment' to say the least Thank goodness mum rejected the option of a 'Sport' retro-fit on the 959 >> Edited by jaydee on Saturday 9th August 15:32

Oh cheers, Dad! (Congrats, btw ) Unfortunately, it is not a contraption of derestriction although I must confess a strange yearning when considering it's dilithium content! It's quite interesting to acknowledge the mindlessness of branding bias within the steroidal 911 ranks: I'm sure you're right but I'd have thought Gemballa has a certain kudos and in fact, it's interesting to note (sure I've mentioned this on a threda before) how much component sharing/sourcing/swapping occurs within this specialist, Germanic fettling community. But yes, there is a certain desire to keep things 'officially stamped' as it were but if you ain't planning on selling on, well... Scotty...some more crystals, if you please! Oh dear.

I agree wholeheartedly that the branding issue is given too much weight. I'm not sure that even Gemballa would have the necessary kudos with many Porschistas. FWIW I'd view a 600bhp claim with some caution, the press Ruf R (which I had the misfortune to drive *) grenaded at 12k, with all driving having been 'supervised' by the works driver and that developed 520bhp with 546lbft *I've driven many iterations of the air-cooled and water cooled 911 and this was the first one that, on well maintained Swiss mountain roads in perfect weather, felt as though it was doing it's utmost to launch me backwards through the Armco. It also had that 'natural frequency' effect of some highly tuned cars, whereby it's not really happy at all under 150mph >> Edited by jaydee on Saturday 9th August 15:51

Sounds immensely entertaining! From my limited experience and what certain 'Porsche people' have told me, there are what you might call 'notional limits' below which, the primary stress loads which might otherwise cause the sort of meltdowns you refer to...in the case of the 993, this appears to be about 550 bhp. (Which is suitably convenient!) Re the natural frequency: again, good point; the 550 993 I recently tried certainly seemed tractable at all speeds but I must acknowledge, my car gets into a kind of 'hunkered down' stride at 'a certain speed' too... All good fun. They're clearly stupidly hardy things (as you'll obviously be aware) but with 493 bhp, as an example, mine's on it's original clutch (with 38k miles up). >> Edited by derestrictor on Saturday 9th August 16:17

For the track For the road...it was way faster than me The 'R' is built up from a 996, but I suspect the limits may be similar. That's impressive. Unless you're not trying hard enough ... ...which seems unlikely

Jaydee, I tell ya, I've done so many early morning Sunday 0-whatever mph blasts over the local moors that if the thing was made of anything less than weapons-grade, alien sourced titanium, it would have given up the ghost some time ago. That said, stage 4's 550 conversion will see a Countach-spec, calftastic unit replace the OEM unit. Shame the 959s never came in RHD. (Speaking of which, what WAS the crack re the 450 versus 550 differential I've read about? Any ideas?)

I dunno There are alledged to be different transmission specs on different cars, but Porsche deny all knowledge.

DeR. I think the standard 959 came with 450 bhp, but the factory made a few 550bhp versions. One of which was recently for sale at autoclassica, silver bodywork - nice, scarlet red interior overload - ghastly, built for Royalty of some kind according to the advert. I don't know if it was modded turbos etc.....or just tweaking electronics in the same way many aftermarket tuners do today. Jaydee, congrats on the nipper, hope he sleeps well for the benefit of yourself and the Mrs. Oh, Porsche do a nice line in mini Boxster pedal cars, I bought one recently for a two year old cousin, he loves it. DAZ DeR, would you prefer to spend 80k on a modded GT3 or 90k on a GT2? even if the GT3 is modded by Gemballa. >> Edited by dazren (moderator) on Saturday 9th August 16:53

Whaddya you think, Kaiser? Enjoy your p1ss up...

I think you'd buy the 600bhp GT3, get bored and then move onto one of the 750bhp Nurburg specials (probably in the same colour and style etc so Mrs DeR doesn't realise you've changed cars yet again) DAZ

Correct, mein West Country General. Indeed, I do like the context of an entirely standard looking 993 with that kind of power. Only the bucket seats, roll cage and latest edition copy of the Domster Cupholder Guide atop the fat extinguisher might suggest an altogether unseemly prescence of thoroughly illicit grutwoldt von schnellentropp.

Interesting point, but not suprising, modified Porkers always bomb come re-sale. Why, I think it's the potential cost likely to frighten even lottery winners when that highly stressed engine, clutch, gearbox & all implode after one BLAST too many!!! We all know the horrendous labour rates attached to Porkers & this is what stops me going down the "an extra 100bhp sir..no problem just plug in this chip" route !!! Porsche design tolerances aren't what they used to be & how much extra can you feed through the beastie without affecting reliability, air filter, exhaust mods fine beyond that, no thankyou ??? I love cars but the bloody things all loose money far too fast without throwing a holiday home at them in modification costs. I'd still like 600BHP mind, but if it could be done reliably why don't porsche do it themselves ????

The sport (as opposed to komfort) model had the same power, but lost 200+lbs in creature comforts. A number of cars had an retrofit power boost to 550bhp, but 959 PNM (the car to which you refer I think) isn't one of them. 'CanCan colour theme' orangey red (think tomato soup...) I wonder if they've offloaded it on some mug found it a new home yet ? BTW, and again assuming it's the same car, not 'built for royalty' unless the person who commissioned it has been crowned since the last time I spoke to him Remap, different airboxes, new intercooler, retuned suspension. One of my neighbour's kids has one The Mercedes pedal car's cooler though IMO.

Another factor that i feel influences modified porker values is that if a standard car wasn't enough it has been modidfied for more power,therefore it will have had a hard life. This is not always strictly true as some like the kudos of spending money on their Porsches. Although I appreciate the feel of mega grunt must be wonderful on a Turbo,I don't totally get this voracious appetite for extra horse. An X50 is a great car...I know this and Autocar says so...so there! but is it not about driving the things and pushing ones personal envelope of ability? What I am trying to say thet is rather than spend £000's on the car,it may make sense to spend £hundreds on driver tuituion.That way you may be able to make better use of what you have or indeed equip yourself for a future 600bhp monster. Point in case,nobody was keen to take 9M on round a trackin a 2wd car with under 400bhp... Der, another possibility for the 993 ...after the lighter seats,,don't forget RS models have an aluminium bonnet...

Obviously, it is very much horses for courses but only a d1ck would take on Crazy Colin in his particular killing machine, on track more than anywhere. The track tutoring idea makes immense sense but alas, whilst handling delicacy is a wonderful thing, for mere mortals, not to mention northern monkeys like what I is, sledgehammerism does take on an attractive glow and in Turbo form, to which you allude, Paul, the fix is generally a worthwhile end in itself. Grant - I think the tuning houses are merely reflecting mainstream, future power levels: with Audi's Bentley VW-Phaeton V10/V12 thing going on, BMW Motorsport looking at a 4-550 bhp field next time and Merc just, well, losing the plot(!), Porsche will have little choice but to up the ante considerably to maintain not just a handling dominance (now being challenged by the Audi Gallardo, perhaps?) but a straight line slap to those impertinent Stuttgartians. The debate about stress levels will always generally favour the original specifier but as Brabus have had no problem establishing themselves, so the Porsche tuners are hardly 'just' Max Power type chip shop boys: of course there is more pressure on a modified car but when you factor in the raft of physical component upgrades, the worry is greatly reduced. In just over 3 years of ownership, most of which has been uprated (and if you exclude my dormency in the battery stakes ), then the car has genuinely been more reliable than my 18 month old Lexus LS. It is totally spiffing; not as polished as you boys with the techno jewel, natch but still possessing of enough vomit & brimstone that Paul von Clubben Sportivissimo might deign to alight and abuse. Perhaps tellingly, it was my conviction with the basic car's indominatability, that I knew, without any doubt, that it was not just 'the car for me, forever' but, the basis for perfecting the mix, liberating the most satisfaction. Then again, it's entirely subjective... Sorry about that, chaps.

Have you been drinking That last post was florid even by your usual standards "The debate about stress levels will always generally favour the original specifier but as Brabus have had no problem establishing themselves, so the Porsche tuners are hardly 'just' Max Power type chip shop boys: of course there is more pressure on a modified car but when you factor in the raft of physical component upgrades, the worry is greatly reduced." Absolutely, but, sadly, I suspect it's a case of I know that, you know that... and that aftermarket work is doomed always to devalue a car. I'd be interested to know what effect it has on other prestige brands, I don't know if a Brabus-ed Merc retains the value of the work done thereto, for example ?

DeR, ever driven an early 930 turbo ( 1975) , completely standard?

If you modify any car you will achieve two things when you come to sell: 1. Lose 50% to 75% (or more) of the cost of modifications. 2. Make it much harder to sell. It is often better to return a car to standard trim (if possible) and sell the parts separately. This will often get more money back. I can speak of some experience with my tuned Skylines, I spent £82,000 over 2 years on the modifications (which included 3 blown engines!) to my 700bhp R34 and come re-sale it only added about £15,000 to the value - ouch!. Most people view modifications with a suspicious eye and hence you only have a small audience come re-sale time. It also doesn't help that UK insurance does not understand and therefore penalises modifications. It is often better to buy a car that has been modified and let someone else carry the cost. The R32 GTR I had (owned between me and GTRHenry) cost us £25k, but had had approx £120k worth of parts and labour spent on it. It ran 1018 bhp (yes over one thousand genuine UK bhp) at the wheels a few weeks ago for the new owner, but then exploded necessitating another rebuild at circa £15k. As for Porkers, another mate of mine was seriously going to buy the GT3TT in question, but was advised against it, since although it has the engine done, it was not certain that all the addtional bits necessary to ensure longevity had also been done ie does it have uprated gearbox, diff, driveshafts, coolers etc etc. There are many reasons that a GT2 is over £40k more expensive than a GT3 and it's a lot more than the cost of a couple of turbos. It's the parts you don't see that have been upgraded that matter the most......! (eg larger diameter gearbox input shaft) The issue of brand is very important when it come to modifications to Porkers. If you only have an exhaust then it doen't really matter, but a full-on upgrade does. In this context there is only really one name that counts - Ruf. This is not just due to their quality of work, but their customer back-up and service and their status as a registered manufacturer of new cars ie the new cars are Rufs NOT Porsches. Their conversions are also warrantied and I believe they have never had a warranty claim for an engine. Oh, and yes, before you ask, I have been talking to Ruf about upgrading the GT2 with their 550bhp/580TQ conversion......... Guy

Another point.... Do not ever consider modifiying anything but fastest model in the range. There is no point turning a GT3 into a GT2 since it will never have the originality and value of a GT2 come re-sale. My advice is if your car is too slow, then get the faster model, you will do better in the long run. The only exception to this is if your car is cheap enough and the costs of modifications are small. eg if you can source a 993TT lhd from Germany for £30k, then spent £5k on chip and exhaust to get 500bhp, then it is a great car for £35k (as was the Ruf modded 993TT sold here recently for £36k). Guy

Guy, I don't disagree that RUF are currently the default consideration for porkists contemplating entry into the modifier's realm but I reckon that's just marketing: Gemballa are no less worthy and then you have TechArt and indeed, the raft of component manufacturers/respected programmers like CarGraphic, RS Tuning and TTP et al and the whole thing is greatly symbiotic. None of my mods were carried out by Ali G's mate Dave, wiv a quick Supach1ps sponsored dose of Max Power butchery at the last Toyota Supra burnout, down the Staines central Tesco car park...indeed, had not PCGB's very own motorsport supremo, Steve Kevlin, recommended the 'techie' outfit I do entrust ops to, I certainly might have simply taken the Alois/Uwe path. Nevertheless, everything's been continually matched so that nothing uprated here causes an embolism over there; indeed, when I finally go properly ballistic, structural changes such as ballsier clutch and driveshaft will go hand in hand with re-uprated blowers, cams, coolers etc, etc. Depreciation? You buy cars as some kind of investment? I can't imagine ever tiring of my current 993 association; like many owners of this and other strains of the breed, occasional moments of bliss conspire to deliver just the right conditions and just the requisite road and...yes, I think I'm getting there...slowly: learning to live with the forces at work is such a buzz and as my saliva-less tongue sensually licks further the raggedy egdes of the misstress's envelope, so further titilating reciprocation can only be gleened by more and more power. Issue 17 of EVO: "There's always been something that sets the 911 Turbo apart from the rest of the range. They've always had a feel of their own; a special quality that's quite distinct from the delicate responses of the more nimble, less brutal, normally aspirated models. The Turbo is a bigger, heftier experience...a feast of strong flavours: huge power, massive reserves of grip [read 'dry only' sans PSM!]...and simply incredible brakes." Which sort of sums up how I feel about 'em. So I'll have spent the same as a GT2? I don't care: with over 550 bhp of vaguely stable, decently raw, nicely vocal, utterly reliable 4wd 993ism at hand, I'll have just the perfect blend of aesthetic and tactile rapture for me. So as I say, horses for courses.

Der you do put up a very credible and desirable case for Uber Pork...Are you at 550 on your current mods? I thought you were just under 500 at last count? In terms of modding,,I know the '97 model year 993TT are more suitable to modding as they have a more sturdy gearbox input shaft than the earlier models.It is good to see Porsche are pre-empting the thoughts of owners.

How come you're CLUBSPORT in capitals these days, Paul??? DeR is currenlty at 490bhp, IIRC, but has a 550 strategem brewing. That said, my Cupholder Guide to Things You Can Ditch From a 911, may come in handly. Upping the power to weight always makes sense. It is cheaper to ditch weight than add power in DeR's case, I suspect. The trick is not to kill resale or purpose with such a luxury hypermobile.

Then you could go for the Techart CF doors. Or not...

Dunno Dom...just looked at my profile and it looks like normal scrpt ??? maybe i logged in with caps lock on....I agree on the weight thing obviously...i pointed out to Der that RS models have ali front luggage compartments....I think with rear seats out,lighter non electric seats,you could easily strip 60kg out of a 993 TT...When you are at this incremental level of adding horses,that has got to be a cheap way to go as well. Yes looks like the caps lock thing,,,don't worry not getting ideas above my station. >> Edited by clubsport on Monday 11th August 11:18

Chaps, I'm with GuyR on this one,he echo's my first post, but he clearly has more first hand knowledge on the subject.Having said that if you don't mind loosing larger bucket loads of cash over & above the usual depreciation, you can certainly have a great deal of "FUN" with major mods. But the only other point I would make is how much is enough ? Unless you are into drag racing or track day's the standard Turbo's,GT3's & GT2's are up to frightning speeds so quickly you really can't use their full potential in standard trim on the roads , let alone adding mods. I can see that POWER is a slippery slope, having started my car thing many years ago with an 8v golf GTI, which turned into a 16v & then a Cosworth & then a SupraTT, followed by Porkers each one faster than the next, but with the 996TT I think that is as FAST as I could possibly want for the road and if I wanted a track day car then why not a Caterham or Radical with the money I would spend on Modding the TT to be quickest on the track !!!

That's OK, you can have caps if you want Ted doesn't charge extra yet

I am with you on the power thing Grant..I too think a TT is enough,,,if not too much on the road...But please let's not discourage these Guys,it is fantastic that they mod the cars and having seen some serious runs at Brunters it makes a lot of sense.If you can try to get along to the next one even as a spectator.

'Enough' power? Possibly you can, per se but ito of tractable power, I don't think circa 550 is excessive. Yesterday, I had one of my best drives ever , bombing immensely along choice sections of the A66 ( ) during the pre-numpty roaming hours and later in the day, having indulged in some power oversteer at the helm of some JCB excavational machinery at 'Digger Land' (ludicrous, btw), frapped up the A691 towards Consett, nipped up the B6309 and A695 into Hexham and then had the most wonderful workout ever on the A686 down to Alston and thence southbound from Penrith. It was bone dry, the scenery nothing short of inspirational and the road...the road... that road! A great descent, brakes begging for mercy and more chattering from the ABS than I can remember; riding the line, cresting fully sighted brows, dispathing crawling caravan trails with bloody great slugs of schnellic ecstacy, the speeds were all over the place, the back end twitching, slithering, tyres chirping in protest and gear lever smoking with abuse. At the end, thoroughly elated, I pulled over and studied the terrain, surveying the windscreen splatisma, the silence of God's arena interrupted only by the engine's post coital Marlborough pinking... ...I think I'd just done an EVO road...and it felt good, f@*king great... Only buckets and a whiskey cap more grunt could have intensified the session. The envelope has been teased back, just a tad and the contents are looking fine.

Clubsport, I'd like to visit a future "Brunter's" bash, I'll keep my eyes open on the site for future dates.The only problem is it probably leads to another slippery slope, e.g... GuyR spending £80k in Skyline mods in 2yrs..phew !! Dazren be careful, if you get knocked off the top spot by the RUF or modded GT2 you'll be opening that wallet for the next visit!!!

I think in terms of power modifications, it has been proved time and again that the flat six engine can take quite significant power hikes over and above stock. And besides, if you crave more power and you have the wherewithall, why the hell not? I simply don't subscribe to the notion of "usable" car plus "track" car - in some respects its nicer to have a car that one can drive ot the track, spend a day there and then drive home again. Agreed, there MUST be a ceiling whereupon continual money throwing seriously affects the longevity of the engine internals. I would hope that with respectable tuners such as Tech9 or Mr Beltons establishment, you would get plenty of forewarning that you were approaching that line.

Apologies having been busy working today. Interesting comments being made on the tuning and depreciation costs, we can easily comment on the person buying the GT3 that had been modded (in the first post) having done his brains on depreciation. What no-one has mentioned is at the time the GT2 was not available so he didn't have the choice of going for the quicker standard model. In which case I salute th chap as a Hoonatic of the highest order. Grant take it from me there will be no money spent on modding my porker. If I had spare cash for motors I'd be chopping the barge in for an ML55 or buying an Atom for trackdays, no roof = no helmet problems ; also fun for the half a dozen days a year when it's warm. A true go-kart for adults. DAZ

Bit of a mystery to me, this one. The wonderful world of William Loughran have had this car for sale since the middle ages. To say it's a bit special would be like saying Daz 'quite likes' bombing runs. It has a colossally impressive specification and with a claimed 600 bhp, looks uncommonly fine value at fifty sovs under the eighty big 'uns mark. So why is it still sat there? Theories on a Heinkel 111, if you please.

Dear All. I have been hunting back on the history of my car, I think you are all talking about my GT3. I bought the car in 2011 from Paul Stevens,Essex Specialist Porsche dealer. Yes, it is believed to be the only one in the UK, but I know it is the only one in Scotland. To-date the car has only done 19,000+ miles, I bought the car with 15,000+ on it. The engine and driverain are near bullet proof, never had any problems other than at present. Both Turbo´s were leaking oil, so I removed them myself and sent them back to TTP in Germany for Rebuild & Upgrade. I don´t know why people are rabbiting on about being modified, it´s a race car now(road legal) not a tampered GT3 but all said, it´s still a Porsche and a very reliable one. I only have the Porsche Dealer do a standard service, oil & filter / AC Filter,check fluids and thats it. but only after I have shown them the car, they touch nothing else. I like my car it´s unique.

BILLGTR said: Dear All. I have been hunting back on the history of my car, I think you are all talking about my GT3. I bought the car in 2011 from Paul Stevens,Essex Specialist Porsche dealer. Yes, it is believed to be the only one in the UK, but I know it is the only one in Scotland. To-date the car has only done 19,000+ miles, I bought the car with 15,000+ on it. The engine and driverain are near bullet proof, never had any problems other than at present. Both Turbo´s were leaking oil, so I removed them myself and sent them back to TTP in Germany for Rebuild & Upgrade. I don´t know why people are rabbiting on about being modified, it´s a race car now(road legal) not a tampered GT3 but all said, it´s still a Porsche and a very reliable one. I only have the Porsche Dealer do a standard service, oil & filter / AC Filter,check fluids and thats it. but only after I have shown them the car, they touch nothing else. I like my car it´s unique. That is some EPIC lurking there! 101 months and 1 post? So, whats this turbo GT3 all about then? A TURBO? On a GT3!? Do you have any pictures you can post?

I'd be interested in seeing this also. I had a 993 C4S with a TTP conversion, 450 bhp and 450 lb of torque. It was ridiculously quick, they really know how to put some boooooost into an engine!

I´ll put some before & after pic´s in once I have re-fitted the turbos, I must say the TTP Exhaust system is a work of art. As I said it´s a road legal (Race Car), it´s no longer a Mk1 GT3 Clubsport. By the way,never been smoked in, still smells like new when you open the door. I have no idea why the first owner converted the car, but I would like to thank him for doing so, also previous owners touching nothing. The pictures will show you what the car is all about.

If you are talking about an Iris Blue metallic 996 GT3 Turbo, I met the first owner soon after he had the modifications done (1999/2000?), scared himself silly in an outside his local Porsche dealer in an incident (whilst I was there on a Saturday morning) and sold it to William Loughran soon afterwards. Awesome 911 if you can drive it properly

V8KSN said: That is some EPIC lurking there! 101 months and 1 post? So, whats this turbo GT3 all about then? A TURBO? On a GT3!? Do you have any pictures you can post? Epic thread revival too, this thread was on here before he registered! Welcome to PH Sir, now please tell us & indeed add lots of pics so we can appreciate what you have.

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Top man!

Yes, that's the one I remember. Was owned by a young guy that worked for Yahoo.com who went from an 200+ bhp Alfa GTV 3.0 into 600bhp+ 911 and explored a hedge/ fence/ grassy bank backwards shortly after. Well repaired and ended up at William Loughran for a year or so after. Still a damned unique 911

Got to be this one pitted agaist my old bitsa Turbo and featured in 911 and Porsche world May, which only seems to come out upside down no matter how I format it? Edited by charge on Wednesday 11th November 22:35

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GTR 600 going even faster. Race turbo’s upgraded, 3 years ago. 22,500 miles on the clock, still smells new inside.

And you posted the pictures inside of 8 years

More pics pls

Only sees sunny days.

Cool. V.interesting 911.

What a wonderful thread - what a car!