Buying a 996 / 997 - independent inspection or dealer - Page 2 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Hi, I'm looking to buy my first Porsche later this year. Probably a 996 but maybe a 997 if the pennies equate to one of those by time of purchase. I do know my way around a car but as it's such a relatively expensive (to me) purchase and well documented issues I feel i'd like to get an independent inspection or buy from a dealer who specialises in the cars. An independent inspection could open up the second hand market to me so has anyone got recommendations of a mobile type service that would do this? And for those that buy through dealers who are the go to people to buy 911s from in the 996/997 age bracket? I'm based near Cambridge but would travel anywhere for the right car. Friends Green isn't far away and in my relatively inexperienced Porsche eyes they appear to prep the cars well but charge top end for it too, no bad thing in my eyes as I'd rather buy right first time. Any other ideas welcomed on sourcing the car. Dream is an early 996 Aero kitted manual Carrera 2 (or 4) but aiming for £19-22k bracket it may not be possible. Cheers

Buy a Hartech inspected (or better still, repaired) or just don't bother. If it't not already gone bang, it's upcoming.

p4cks said: Buy a Hartech inspected (or better still, repaired) or just don't bother. If it't not already gone bang, it's upcoming. Have thought about that and adding £10k (by loan) to my search price and buying a 997.2 instead which appear to not have issues.

VeeReihenmotor6 said: p4cks said: Buy a Hartech inspected (or better still, repaired) or just don't bother. If it't not already gone bang, it's upcoming. Have thought about that and adding £10k (by loan) to my search price and buying a 997.2 instead which appear to not have issues. Great shout!

p4cks said: Buy a Hartech inspected (or better still, repaired) or just don't bother. If it't not already gone bang, it's upcoming. I wouldn’t necessarily agree, but it’s a point of view I understand and largely all down to risk. For £19-22k, if you can’t stretch to a 911 but fancy a Gen 2, Cayman would be the answer. Otherwise, I’d get an early 996 3.4 and be very wary of 997 3.8s. Re: inspections. Do not discount OPCs - they’d be able to do a go-over for you (they did for us, when looking for a 968 and did a detailed report on the chain tensioners, which was a model-specific foible they knew all about). Indeed, there’s a tech at OPC Cambridge that the 996 register of the PCGB recommends reaching out to with tech queries.

A friend of mine has had a great experience recently buying and also selling a car with William Francis who are based nr Cambridge. He sold his Hartech engined 996 on SOR through them and bought a Cayman GTS they had. Their level of preparation was impressive for an independent & Charlie is very knowledgeable on 996/997s & I can say their range of cars they have for sale is quite impressive too & it's worth a trip out to see them.

I'm in St.Albans so not far. Indies I'd suggest: - Portiacraft, Mill Hill (my first 3.2 Carrera) - 911 Virgin, Iver - RSJ Sportscars, Slough (my 996 turbo) - RPM Technik, nr Leighton Buzzard - Ashgood, Horton nr Heathrow - JZ Machtech (Less low end cars) - Cameron Cars, Bath Portiacraft are no frills but will have the 996 and 997's. I'd call the others as they may get the odd car in if you give them a spec e.g. manual, coupe, 2wd. Edited by g7jhp on Wednesday 8th February 21:02

Nice one I will check out those dealers. RE the Cayman .2 that was/is also a consideration and perhaps use it as a stepping stone to a 997.2. The only trouble is a 911 is a little bit more practical and my small kids are still at an age where they would just about fit so the car could be used more often on say the school run, clubs, errands as my kids aren't old enough to stay at home alone yet. I do need to give some more thought about what I am going to use this car for. It's defintely not a daily and I'm consolidating 3 old modern classic cars and their parts to get a Porsche and tbh most of my trips were alone but then again I didn't really drive them as they were always being renovated - welding, bare metal resprays, engine rebuilds - I don't really want to be in that constant cycle anymore. With the Porcshe I am hoping to get use out of it by getting involved in the Porsche community as have seen it is pretty active with events and trips, perhaps some track days and enjoy cleaning it.

MrC986 said: A friend of mine has had a great experience recently buying and also selling a car with William Francis who are based nr Cambridge. He sold his Hartech engined 996 on SOR through them and bought a Cayman GTS they had. Their level of preparation was impressive for an independent & Charlie is very knowledgeable on 996/997s & I can say their range of cars they have for sale is quite impressive too & it's worth a trip out to see them. I did come across them and they looked good too, they also have a aero kitted carrera 2 in stock that they have prep'd and sold before in my budget but not ready for another month or 2.

From PPE, purchase and servicing i have used 9e in Horley and highly recommend. The previous owner used OPC from day 1 and the list of items that needed correcting was dismal. Personally go for an indie as they will look after you so much better IMHO. Re the Hartech comments yes agreed but not every 996/997 engine has gone pop and they charge 5 figures for the engine rebuild and you pay alot more for cars with their engines.

Out of the 996/997 group I think the 997.1 is the sweet spot but you should worry about the engine and factor that in. A clear bore scope at purchase doesn’t mean you won’t have a problem 5000 miles later. My choice would be 997.1 with full Hartech rebuild or buy a car with a future rebuild in mind. I pick ours up from Hartech next week. It is a 65k 997.1 C4s that needed a new clutch and coolant lines etc so we went for a pre-emptive rebuild and upgrade to 4.1. And, lo and behold, on stripping down it had scoring in cylinder 6. Pampered from new, over serviced and symptomless. Sorry about the photo. .

Discombobulate said: Out of the 996/997 group I think the 997.1 is the sweet spot but you should worry about the engine and factor that in. A clear bore scope at purchase doesn’t mean you won’t have a problem 5000 miles later. My choice would be 997.1 with full Hartech rebuild or buy a car with a future rebuild in mind. I pick ours up from Hartech next week. It is a 65k 997.1 C4s that needed a new clutch and coolant lines etc so we went for a pre-emptive rebuild and upgrade to 4.1. And, lo and behold, on stripping down it had scoring in cylinder 6. Pampered from new, over serviced and symptomless. Sorry about the photo. . Cheers for that and coincides with a Hartech build youtube series I was watching last night about a guy that went from 3.4 to 3.7. The total cost was about £23k. Having spent similar numbers on bodywork on various old cars in recent years that is not somewhere I want to end up anytime soon. The more I think about it a 997.2 or 987.2 makes more sense for an easier life though the cayman doesn't have the rear the seats I might need and the 997.2 is out of range without borrowing or dipping into other savings pots which I do not want to do. Edit to add perhaps a 997.2 is possible if I compromise on miles and get one with 90-120k on it, seem to start around £28.5k with full history. Edited by VeeReihenmotor6 on Monday 13th February 08:42

Personally, if you’re wanting to stick to budgetary constraints, I can’t see the wisdom in a low mileage original gen1. I’d be going for a cheap high miler and factoring a rebuild (or a mint 987.2).

I am also in for a 911 and based on lots of research I am eying a late ('07 /'08) 997.1 manual. I intend do keep the 911 for a long time as I expect the 997.1 keeps the value. How is your experience with the named independent dealers in terms of their pricing. The better ones are a tack more expensive but you get also the service I hear. Are their car prices fixed or can you still negotiate with them? The good independent apparently have immaculate cars to offer..

The dealers do tend to price higher than say a private sale. Some dealers seem to spend a lot of time and effort on preparing the cars for sale and that's reflected in the price (friends green for example). I've sold my corrado for more than I expected but now have the horrible task of sorting through loads of parts to sell off. If I buy I am only interested in ones that have had the full rebuild at Hartech as they appear to only be a few grand more.

VeeReihenmotor6 said: The dealers do tend to price higher than say a private sale. Some dealers seem to spend a lot of time and effort on preparing the cars for sale and that's reflected in the price (friends green for example). I've sold my corrado for more than I expected but now have the horrible task of sorting through loads of parts to sell off. If I buy I am only interested in ones that have had the full rebuild at Hartech as they appear to only be a few grand more. That's exactly what I see in the market as well. I was just wondering if there is still room for negotiation or are their prices pretty much fixed? Also, do for example RSJ Sportscars, Slough also sell rebuild by Hartech or do you find those cars more on the private sell side? Furthermore, some independent also state "FSH plus we carried out a full engine rebuild to eliminate bore scoring" or "FSH we have carried out a bore check", but I guess that's not the same as it would have been done by Hartech (those are statements on currently on sales cars by Portiacraft. I am reluctant to buy private, even if they have a documented Hartech rebuild. I am just missing the deep knowledge. Thanks for the good feedback here!

I've also had a read of Portiacrafts website and they have a helpful section on there about IMS, bore score and also for cars they sell they offer a cap at £4k on an engine rebuild if bore score happens. A nice "insurance" or at least known palatable cost if the worst did happen. They mention that the liners come from with Hartech or Westwood. For me and my risk adversion a dealer is worth paying a premium on the car to have some of this assurances.

Good afternoon all, Coming back to this thread as I am still looking. I visited a few specialists the past few months and had some good experience. However this one is quite far and I cannot find any information so I was wondering if somebody came across this specialist? Does anybody have experience with https://www.elmstoneclassics.co.uk/ ? Seems a family run business but I can find very little information. Can be a good and bad sign. Thanks for sharing if anybody has experience with them.

p4cks said: Buy a Hartech inspected (or better still, repaired) or just don't bother. If it't not already gone bang, it's upcoming. No disrespect but you're perpetuating a myth. Yes it happens, but we only tend to hear about the issues when something goes wrong. You don't hear when things are fine, for example my cars - 1998 996 Carrera 2 manual, aero kit - 87k miles, not gone bang, IMS changed at 65k miles and guess what nothing wrong with the one taken out 2000 996 Carrera 4 Tip, 109k miles, original IMS, not gone bang Done over 25k miles across both cars in the last 3 years To the OP, my advice for what little benefit it may be is look at plenty, don't jump in, ask around PCGB (Porsche Club GB) and TIPEC (The Independent Porsche Enthusiasts Club), join their local Facebook Groups, see if you can go to the odd meeting. More than often than not someone in a group is selling a car and you'll invariably find these cars are well looked after and also used regularly which is equally important. Alternatively if you are in the North West my C2 aero is going up for sale soon as have an Aston shaped itch to scratch ! Good luck

JEMAutomotive said: No disrespect but you're perpetuating a myth. I getcha, and apologies for the confusion... I was referring to the borescoring on the 996.2 and 997.1 which are most definitely not myths as opposed to the IMS issues on the earlier cars

I’ve had my 997.1 a while now (bought it in 2016). I was looking for over a year for the right car, found a couple that seemed good and had inspections done and they turned out to be duffs. Finally I found a dealer (not specialist) with a Hartech rebuilt car for sale. I went through the service history with a fine-toothed comb and checked every detail, to the extent of ringing Hartech for a chat and also speaking to the Indy that had been servicing the car. They were very helpful and gave me lots of information. After buying the car, I took it to Northway in Reading for a post-purchase inspection. They went over the car in detail and gave me a long list of things that needed attending to. I had been expecting some issues, so it came as no surprise and I had a slush fund for work to be carried out post purchase anyway. I had been prepared to return the car to the dealer if it had significant problems, but Northway assured me that it wasn’t a bad car and prioritised the work that needed doing for me. Getting that inspection done was well worth the money, as I then had a list of things to work through. One thing I wasn’t prepared for was that every car I looked at had been clocked. The value of lower mileage cars is so much more than higher mileage ones, that it just seems to be rife and unavoidable. It’s only when you get the car on a lift and go over it that you realise that the mileage isn’t correct. Of course, you might be able to tell from the interior, but I remember one mechanic having a car on a lift and telling me there was no way that car had only done 35,000 miles - it was being sold by a reputable local Porsche dealer too, who had suggested I go and look at it while they were inspecting it! I walked away from that one. You need to be prepared to wait for the right car to come along and get it checked thoroughly so you know what you’re looking at. I’m glad I did it the way I did - it’s worked out well. Edited by Bluesgirl on Wednesday 7th June 22:26

p4cks said: JEMAutomotive said: No disrespect but you're perpetuating a myth. I getcha, and apologies for the confusion... I was referring to the borescoring on the 996.2 and 997.1 which are most definitely not myths as opposed to the IMS issues on the earlier cars No worries, understand where you coming from on borescore, I had the issue on a 987 with the 2.7 ! My recommendation is Gen 1 996 all the way, less prone to borescore and double row IMS

JEMAutomotive said: No worries, understand where you coming from on borescore, I had the issue on a 987 with the 2.7 ! My recommendation is Gen 1 996 all the way, less prone to borescore and double row IMS Don't hear of many scored 2.7s, that must be really bad luck? What did you do,repair, move on etc?

Before purchasing a 996 4s, 1 owner full PSH, low miles i took it to 9excellence in Horley who did a ppe, they gave me an a4 list of items most were age related but a couple were OPC f k ups (cross threaded sump plug!!) i bought the car and have now sorted 95% of the list and very happy with the car. 9e have dealt with the mot servicing etc and come highly recommended by me a very satisfied customer. No i have no link to the company and no i do not get a discount on their bills....

deebs said: JEMAutomotive said: No worries, understand where you coming from on borescore, I had the issue on a 987 with the 2.7 ! My recommendation is Gen 1 996 all the way, less prone to borescore and double row IMS Don't hear of many scored 2.7s, that must be really bad luck? What did you do,repair, move on etc? You don’t hear of many Metzger engines with borescore nor 997.2 engines, etc. they’re out there, the owners choose to cry in their beer and moan down at the pub rather than on internet forums. There are also cars with signs of bore score that have gone on the clock up 40k miles without issues, while some cars with clear a clear borescope develop borescore 5k miles down the line. My view and I’m often wrong, is if there are clear signs of an issue like a sooty tailpipe, clattering engine and high oil consumption, the car has a problem now! What happens tomorrow is very difficult to predict, although someone will happily take your cash to predict what [i]might[/] happen.

I wanted to thank you for all the helpful comments you've shared here. I really appreciate your insights, and I'm taking them into account as I continue my search for the right car. I have one more question for you. Do you think the market for 997.1s is decreasing? I recently came across two 997.1s with engine rebuilds but over 100,000 miles for 22,000-23,000 (both early '04/'05). I'm wondering if these are good deals? click Is there anything I am missing? I know it's difficult to say for sure however, this example is from a reputable dealer who also includes warranty. Prices tend start at around 25,000 for a non-rebuilt high mileage cars and can go up to the high 30,000s. Of course, the exact price will depend on the condition of the car, the mileage, and the options, but they both had full service history without gaps at specialists, good options, etc. I did not see anything being "wrong" except the price (or not?).

I've only just looked back at this thread, but here are my thoughts. There will inevitably be fewer 997.1s around now as they age and some owners can't afford or aren't prepared to keep maintaining them. Buyers looking to get into 911s will often be looking at much newer models with (arguably) fewer issues, probably as expensive to maintain but they'll have lower mileage etc. Some owners will be keeping them indefinitely (as will I), as they're generally well thought of, debates about IMS, bore-scoring etc apart. The current economic situation means that some owners will be getting rid of their toys for a while, I imagine. That model you've linked to looks good, but I see it's sold now - did you buy it? Personally I wouldn't choose an auto or a coupe (although many wouldn't have anything but a coupe). The warranty is another issue entirely. If the dealer will warranty it themselves or there's a Porsche warranty with the car, then that's fine. But all these after-market warranties seem rarely to be worth paying for. Incidentally I bought one on my 997.1 but only because I wasn't going to haggle with the dealer, I wanted the car that much! I went into the deal thinking that I'd never even try to claim on the warranty, I couldn't be bothered with it. That's why the post-purchase inspection I had done was so vital and well worth doing.

Hello Bluesgirl, Thank you for your valuable response. No, I did not buy this car however, I came across a very similar car (but private sale), perhaps even better considering the history. Same mileage, same colour, Tip and engine rebuild by JZM incl IMS 60k miles ago (it's a 04 model, too). Lot's of new parts recent and last service 3 month ago, no advisories. Specs are great, more than what I would wish for. The only thing is the colour is not my first choice however, as you say cars are getting rarer every day. I just wasn't sure if it's too cheap, it's also available for a while now (wonder why). Some 996 are more expensive. Perhaps it's worth having a look, I am not in a rush.

I think once these cars (and any cars probably) get to 100k miles, their buyer catchment will reduce considerably, so that'll affect the price and length of time to sell. If it's the one in Hastings on AT you're looking at, 8 owners in nearly 20 years is probably average for these type of cars, they tend to turn over much more quickly than the family saloon. Have you driven one yet? That's got to be the next step, try a tip and a manual. They're very different and, at this age, these cars can vary hugely in drive experience. Some will feel (and sound) like a box of loose nuts and bolts just about hanging together (or not) and others will feel tight and reliable.

Good advice from Bluegirl as you need to test drive, alot of people rave about a manual box but for me i wanted tiptronic as it s a sunday toy and suits my lazy driving style, each to their own..