GT3RS 3.8 the pinnacle of driving - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

According to EVO http://api.app.evo.co.uk/editions/uk.co.dennis.evo...

Defining quote... "The epic Speciale proves the future is in good hands, but looking back over the last 200 issues the GT3 RS is the defining car – the pinnacle of an extraordinary era". Pocty

Whilst not being unduly upset about the final decision, it was as almost as big a forgone conclusion as is possible to get. I knew who the winner was going to be before ever reading the article.

Only surprise for me was that the 4.0 wasn't there instead. Any idea why? Too extreme?

Lox said: Only surprise for me was that the 4.0 wasn't there instead. Any idea why? Too extreme? Probably difficult to find someone who will loan you one for the test...

pocty said: Defining quote... "The epic Speciale proves the future is in good hands, but looking back over the last 200 issues the GT3 RS is the defining car – the pinnacle of an extraordinary era". Pocty Which means the 4.0 is even better They didn't ask to borrow a car... TBH, if a speciale was included (given that it is a limited edition of a 458) then the 4.0 could also have been included...

that auotmatically makes the 996RS the real winner then which we all knew anyway as you were !

strange choice of cars

jackal said: that auotmatically makes the 996RS the real winner then which we all knew anyway as you were ! Ah yes - I see what you mean there Did they even consider one? But seriously, these reviews are just a bit of fun when it comes to that 'one car'. I think they could do a category A (top ten across different uses), category B, etc. One car just makes it too difficult.

gaz1234 said: strange choice of cars agreed... and quite predictable winner. not that I mind. LFA was clearly there to please the japanese crowd so the millions of miata owners have something to identify with, GT40 for the american muscle car aficionados.

I don't have a 3.8 but I do have a 4.0 - I can completely see why it won. I really think that these modern RS' are the pinnacle of road cars. Just unsurpassable in terms of pedigree, involvement and integrity.

, this is the only manual GT3 with shorter ratios :-) Porsche finally thought to make this one usable. Shame it now has a 130k entry fee.

It didn't surprise me to see a Ferrari, Renaultsport and Porsche make it through to the final and some token cars of other genres from the EVO mag fan boys. One of these was always going to win. But to be fair I do think the RS is a far more involving drive than the Speciale, which is good when you're on it, but pretty boring when you're not (too clinical). The same can be said of the R26R. How that got through I'll never know. Especially in front of the DC2, which is an infintely better drivers' car. Unfortunately the world of cars is turning digital, and the easier it is to extract speed from one, the more accolades a car seems to get. So for that reason, hallelujah that the RS won. A truly engaging car, any road, any speed and one that requires skill to get the most from it.

mrdemon said: , this is the only manual GT3 with shorter ratios :-) Porsche finally thought to make this one usable. Shame it now has a 130k entry fee. It's really not that different to the 997 3.6.

why didn't the e46 CSL get a look? I too, don't get the R26R inclusion.

I thought it was a very well considered bunch of cars.Personally I think the Speciale is clearly awesome and its fag paper differences we're talking about here. The Megane is a fantastic car from ,IMHO the masters of FWD with a superior back catalogue of chassis, good as Honda are. Not sure I agreed with the principle of mixing up different classes of car in the various groups, personally I'd have grouped them together by type and selected 4 winners and a wild card

HokumPokum said: why didn't the e46 CSL get a look? I too, don't get the R26R inclusion. evo said: The initial idea was to assemble every eCoty winner, but after Jethro nearly turned himself inside-out laughing at the thought of a 911 group test, we sketched out an idea based around the cars we thought best represented "The thrill of driving". The maximum age was 16 years because that’s when the first magazine appeared. They did four groups with five cars each. Only one car of each group made it to the "final". The E46 M3 CSL was in a group with a Caterham R500, Lotus Exige S1, Subaru Impreza P1 and the Ferrari 458 Speciale (which won that group).

HokumPokum said: why didn't the e46 CSL get a look? I too, don't get the R26R inclusion. Becuase it's a hot hatch, meaning an important categorie of cars for Evo. Besides it's what most people consider the affordable choice.

Dblue said: I thought it was a very well considered bunch of cars.Personally I think the Speciale is clearly awesome and its fag paper differences we're talking about here. The Megane is a fantastic car from ,IMHO the masters of FWD with a superior back catalogue of chassis, good as Honda are. Not sure I agreed with the principle of mixing up different classes of car in the various groups, personally I'd have grouped them together by type and selected 4 winners and a wild card This.

pocty said: Defining quote... "The epic Speciale proves the future is in good hands, but looking back over the last 200 issues the GT3 RS is the defining car – the pinnacle of an extraordinary era". Pocty "The pinnacle" or their Pinnacle............. But they favor the "digital" Speciale over the first "digital" 911 Gt3, the new 991 Gt3... Wonder what they make of the new 991 Gt3 rs....................and how they find a way to favor that over a Ferrari.

DeltonaS said: This. Absolutely not. I had an R26R from new for 3 years. It never ever engaged like a DC2 does. Got bored with it and sold it. Also owned a Clio 197, lasted 2 weeks. One of the most overrated pile of s t ever. No doubt the Megane was efficient and effortless, but if I want quick and effortless, I'd take a train. More recent Renaults generally do not engage the driver in the same way some of the old stuff does. This was clearly an attempt to get some good cars together and produce a story. Which is fine. But gospel it is not.

These glib and rather stupid statements do little for the credibility of Journalists or the magazines that print them.

Easy to pick fault in the 20 cars but if you take a read then you can see why they got to what they did I guess. IMHO a 22B is better than a P1, A V6 Exige SC is better than an S1 Exige and I strongly suspect a 4.0 RS is better than a 3.8 RS. Great to see a CSL in there over an E30 M3 as whenever I read of the E30 getting best M car ever it just bugs me as its just plain not. Interesting to hear an owners view above on the R26R as its a car on my list to own but I cant get my head around the low power it has. kinda sorta maybe agree with the winner as the 7.2 GT3 RS was deemed to have the 'thrill of driving' and it being the best car there with a manual shift there wasnt much could compete.

nigelonich said: Interesting to hear an owners view above on the R26R as its a car on my list to own but I cant get my head around the low power it has. The power can be sorted, but wasn't the issue for me. It's just too clinical, too easy, too "digital". Don't get me wrong, it's certainly not a bad car, but if you like to be involved in the drive, it's not that great. Having said that, it still feels special in some ways. The seats, harnesses and damping are really good, GT3 esque. I'd rather have a low powered car that involves and entertains than 5 gazillion boring horses.

pistolp said: I don't have a 3.8 but I do have a 4.0 - I can completely see why it won. I really think that these modern RS' are the pinnacle of road cars. Just unsurpassable in terms of pedigree, involvement and integrity. Is that the pinnacle of road cars with the rock hard suspension, dodgy ground clearance and has to stay in the garage quite a bit? The rs is too compromised to be the best ever road car. It might be if you get dropped off by trailer to your road/track of choice in the heights of summer. And to be the pinnacle, it needs to stop traffic and I can't get over the fact that they strapped scaffolding to the back of it and sprayed dodgy decals all over it.

Carl_Docklands said: pistolp said: I don't have a 3.8 but I do have a 4.0 - I can completely see why it won. I really think that these modern RS' are the pinnacle of road cars. Just unsurpassable in terms of pedigree, involvement and integrity. Is that the pinnacle of road cars with the rock hard suspension, dodgy ground clearance and has to stay in the garage quite a bit? The rs is too compromised to be the best ever road car. It might be if you get dropped off by trailer to your road/track of choice in the heights of summer. And to be the pinnacle, it needs to stop traffic and I can't get over the fact that they strapped scaffolding to the back of it and sprayed dodgy decals all over it. With pistolp on this one...the 7.2 GT3 RS consummately delivers the "Thrill of Driving"...Evo's criteria.. there is a real sense of occasion in deploying it... both to the driver..and remarkably to the many who give it a hearty thumbs up - and rest assured its the thumb being used..- such reflecting a non trivial amount of goodwill...and genuine excitement...when the decals (actually stickers)...pass.

Carl_Docklands said: Is that the pinnacle of road cars with the rock hard suspension, dodgy ground clearance and has to stay in the garage quite a bit? The rs is too compromised to be the best ever road car. It might be if you get dropped off by trailer to your road/track of choice in the heights of summer. And to be the pinnacle, it needs to stop traffic and I can't get over the fact that they strapped scaffolding to the back of it and sprayed dodgy decals all over it. I wish more people agreed with you, then I'd buy one as they wouldn't be 150k!

I don't care what any one says, I would want this one.

Carl_Docklands said: Is that the pinnacle of road cars with the rock hard suspension, dodgy ground clearance and has to stay in the garage quite a bit? The rs is too compromised to be the best ever road car. It might be if you get dropped off by trailer to your road/track of choice in the heights of summer. And to be the pinnacle, it needs to stop traffic and I can't get over the fact that they strapped scaffolding to the back of it and sprayed dodgy decals all over it. Although an RS is more compromised than other softer road cars, I do not agree with the extent to which you are outlining here. The 3.8 and 4.0 RS do not require trailers to go around. In fact they are probably the most road friendly of all the RSs. ...may be it is what you are used to - a 996 RS in my case which is more extreme. If you are used to say an Aston then yes, all 911 GT cars will be too extreme.

I'm not sure I can agree with the compromised road use statements in relation to the 997.2 GT3 RS... I drove mine 3,000 miles in just over a week in all conditions (sun, rain and even snow at the top of Alpine passes) in the Alps and on the Autoroutes and Autobahns and it is a car for every occasion. Epic in the mountains and on B roads and as civilised as you would want on a motorway cruise. But it always feels special. The ride is more compliant than you might think and the engine and gearbox combination is as good as you might have heard - it is the certainly the greatest car I have ever owned or driven.

mrdemon said: I don't care what any one says, I would want this one. On what basis? Have you driven one? Status, looks?

mrdemon said: I don't care what any one says, I would want this one. I can just see you in an MG

So am I safe to assume that the honorable mention caused my CSL to appreciate about £5k?

Alpinestars said: On what basis? Have you driven one? Status, looks? Looks.. yes, noise.. yes, performance.. yes, looking at vids of it... yes http://youtu.be/hQmmJXm2hCA?list=UUFwzOXPZKE6aH3fA...

mrdemon said: Alpinestars said: On what basis? Have you driven one? Status, looks? Looks.. yes, noise.. yes, performance.. yes, looking at vids of it... yes http://youtu.be/hQmmJXm2hCA?list=UUFwzOXPZKE6aH3fA... Fair enough...it certainly ticks those boxes. I'd still have the RS though ...wouldn't say no to a Speciale.

Alpinestars said: DeltonaS said: This. Absolutely not. I had an R26R from new for 3 years. It never ever engaged like a DC2 does. Got bored with it and sold it. Also owned a Clio 197, lasted 2 weeks. One of the most overrated pile of s t ever. No doubt the Megane was efficient and effortless, but if I want quick and effortless, I'd take a train. More recent Renaults generally do not engage the driver in the same way some of the old stuff does. This was clearly an attempt to get some good cars together and produce a story. Which is fine. But gospel it is not. Mmm, the R26R is way way more than efficient, its properly sorted. Just sublime bit of chassis tuning by , consistently, the best FWD team in the business. The Clio 200 is a fantastic drive (Way ahead of the woefully under -torqued 197) and every iteration of the current X85 Megane is a superb drivers car. The new R will be a very special bit of kit I have no doubt. Don't know what to make of demons talking up of the Speciale. If you think a GT3 is too high geared and licence losing on UK roads then that pretty much rules out the Ferrari completely The group of cars is slightly eclectic i agree but even when we have experience of many of them over time, its still interesting to read about how they compared to each other back to back on the same day.

the Ferrari has VERY short ratios, they don't fudge their cars for Co2,sound etc like Porsche do. if you can get to the power then you can use it, I used every bit of my TTRS 430BHP and 430LB's of torque because it was there. I am not saying the 458S is usable as I have not driven it, but they do have nice short ratios. Again the PDK cars Porsche make have Shorter ratios but still no where near the 458. 458 in 3rd gear max 89mph GT3 is about 125mph (RS a bit shorter I guess) !!! But a 458 cannot even do that in 4th gear. Edited by mrdemon on Monday 11th August 16:19

Lox said: Only surprise for me was that the 4.0 wasn't there instead. Any idea why? Too extreme? No more extreme than 3.8RS

Some one has to lend there 400 mile car to a mag to let it add another 1.5k miles, so it's not going to happen is it. Even that new Blue one for sale as only done circa 1k miles PA.

mrdemon said: Some one has to lend there 400 mile car to a mag to let it add another 1.5k miles, so it's not going to happen is it. Even that new Blue one for sale as only done circa 1k miles PA. 4650 miles I think. But Ferrari V8s are not torquey things and feel much more off boost than a similarly high revving GT3 motor. Fact is you can embarrass yourself quite effectively in Scuderia if you're in too high a gear. Speciale may be different but I would expect its character to be in line with other V8 Ferraris

I doubt anyone has bought a 3.8RS to master UK B-roads... I was fortunate to drive a pals 458 Speciale this weekend - we swapped cars and did 200miles or so through the Peak District which was a mixture of A/B & minor roads. Relative to manuals I'm not that familiar with PDK/DSG type auto boxes - maybe about 8,000miles in total - so I left it in auto mode, and selected Sport rather than Race (mainly because Race results in show-boating type down-changes & unnecessary noise). First Ferrari I've ever driven and there were some nice aspects - I liked the steering wheel in the main, especially the indicator buttons, however there was a load of unnecessary bling in there too, as well as around the car - in particular the fake exhaust tips were just depressing - simply don't understand why they have them that way. In terms of driving - it was someone elses car, and worth the thick end of £300k so I drove with some respect, although the engine did sing! However from a drivers perspective I just didn't think all that much of it - it was fine, however I didn't feel like I needed it in my life, and was glad to jump back in my RS for the run home. It could be that this was too short a drive and in fairly constrained roads - we're planning a longer trip to France later this summer so will try it again then, or it could be that the RS has spoiled me for other cars - it's bereft of bling, it's functional, and simply makes me feel great when driving it, from the heft of the gearchange, to the noise and the steering feedback - it's just perfect - to me. My pal however felt the interior was dreary and the controls heavy - and was glad to jump back into his 458 - I'll see if i can get him to write up his views!

I challenge anyone not to get a 'fizz' watching this - the way an RS grips, turns, brakes and accelerates is mind blowing! And it sounds better than a 458!.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VQd8xp4YKs

mrdemon said: Dblue said: 4650 miles I think. But Ferrari V8s are not torquey things and feel much more off boost than a similarly high revving GT3 motor. Fact is you can embarrass yourself quite effectively in Scuderia if you're in too high a gear. Speciale may be different but I would expect its character to be in line with other V8 Ferraris GT3 is lacking below 6k so the same issue if you floor it at 3k revs its a dead horse. 458s 400lbft at 6k 997.2 RS 320lb/ft at even higher 6750 give or take on the figures. thing is what speed are you going in 2nd gear in each at those peak torque figures ? let alone 3rd gear. see why I don't think a GT3 is that usable on UK B roads !!! In my, substantial, time spent in 997 and 996 GT3s and the Scuderia the Ferrari is much less able to pull cleanly from low revs in higher gears. That is just absolutely how it is to drive despite the peak torque figures and lower gearing. They do not lug well at all, you need it buzzing or it can be genuinely embarrassed by a decent turbo diesel. That is not true of a GT3. Both engines are ballistic above 6k but its between say 3k to 6k where the Porsche has the advantage

Dblue said: 4650 miles I think. But Ferrari V8s are not torquey things and feel much more off boost than a similarly high revving GT3 motor. Fact is you can embarrass yourself quite effectively in Scuderia if you're in too high a gear. Speciale may be different but I would expect its character to be in line with other V8 Ferraris GT3 is lacking below 6k so the same issue if you floor it at 3k revs its a dead horse. 458s 400lbft at 6k 997.2 RS 320lb/ft at even higher 6750 give or take on the figures. thing is what speed are you going in 2nd gear in each at those peak torque figures ? let alone 3rd gear. see why I don't think a GT3 is that usable on UK B roads , ie, what I like driving one and hence why they don't work for me. Edited by mrdemon on Monday 11th August 19:08

Interesting, and I cannot argue as I have not driven a 458 in any form. But I felt like that with the GT3, if the Fezza is worse then it's a no go, I do need to try and drive a f430. The R8 V10 takes a bit of get go to get moving also. maybe I should stay with my R till Porsche have GT4 specs to look at. Edited by mrdemon on Monday 11th August 19:18

For low rev pull that gives you a punch, you may find that forced induction is the only solution. Almost all modern track/sports cars are high revving ...unless you get to forced induction or high cc GT cruisers.

Dblue said: Mmm, the R26R is way way more than efficient, its properly sorted. Just sublime bit of chassis tuning by , consistently, the best FWD team in the business. The Clio 200 is a fantastic drive (Way ahead of the woefully under -torqued 197) Always interesting to get different views, but many would say the GTR is properly sorted, amazing etc etc. No doubt it's quick, but like the R26R, I never ever woke up wanting to get it out of the garage and go for a blast. Out of interest, have you driven a DC2?

LaSource said: For low rev pull that gives you a punch, you may find that forced induction is the only solution. Almost all modern track/sports cars are high revving ...unless you get to forced induction or high cc GT cruisers. Or you are into bigger displacement....think Vette v8... Huracan v10.... Zonda v12....Vantage V12....

Alpinestars said: Dblue said: Mmm, the R26R is way way more than efficient, its properly sorted. Just sublime bit of chassis tuning by , consistently, the best FWD team in the business. The Clio 200 is a fantastic drive (Way ahead of the woefully under -torqued 197) Always interesting to get different views, but many would say the GTR is properly sorted, amazing etc etc. No doubt it's quick, but like the R26R, I never ever woke up wanting to get it out of the garage and go for a blast. Out of interest, have you driven a DC2? No, I've only passengered in one although I have driven a dc5. I've also only had an R26R for a weekend,admittedly on the very same roads in this feature. But I thought the R26R was pretty wonderful in those circumstances though the Hondas engine is better and its gear change.

Alpinestars said: mrdemon said: I don't care what any one says, I would want this one. On what basis? Have you driven one? Status, looks? Desirability pure and simple If someone asked me to pick this or a 3.8RS I would chose this very time, no offence to the Porsche. Has a £15k ever won one of these Evo COTY type things over a £100k+ selection? They should offer 2 or 3 winners depending on price point

Dblue said: No, I've only passengered in one although I have driven a dc5. I've also only had an R26R for a weekend,admittedly on the very same roads in this feature. But I thought the R26R was pretty wonderful in those circumstances though the Hondas engine is better and its gear change. You must try one. They are epic. The DC5 is nowhere near as good.

mrdemon said: I don't care what any one says, I would want this one. D, this isn't a good look for you mate. I don't see it working personally. Much too glamourous and antinerd in its persona. You need a 365 day tan, film star looks and a whole wardrobe from Jil Sander and Lanvin to make it work. M&S just won't cut it !

Jim1556 said: I challenge anyone not to get a 'fizz' watching this - the way an RS grips, turns, brakes and accelerates is mind blowing! And it sounds better than a 458!.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VQd8xp4YKs Two great GT3-at-Monza videos in two days.

LaSource said: For low rev pull that gives you a punch, you may find that forced induction is the only solution. Almost all modern track/sports cars are high revving ...unless you get to forced induction or high cc GT cruisers. Or shorter ratios :-) I don't need low rev punch if I can get to the high revs at B road speeds. Hence why I don't get why people have an issue with me saying this. Or are so stupid to see it... I need to exit tighter 2 nd gear bends at good torque levels, the gt3 sucked at it. Then on top of that I could not rev it out in 3rd to get to the next load of real power. So it's not about low rev pull really. I know how to change gear to be in the right gear :-) I would say the 991gt3 is so fast not because of PDK but because of the ratios porsche gave the PDK. The 997.2 RS goes some way to help but every other GT3 is not geared right. Even the manual 981 has stupid ratio's vs the PDK car.

Do you want a 7 or 8 speed manual then? Listening to the Monza video posted above (where the driver gets to 6th on track) the ratios all sound sensibly spaced; 6th is geared such that the car hits top speed around maximum power. What do you propose to do about the higher gears if you shorten 2nd and 3rd? Or maybe like other people say (many times...), the GT3 is the wrong car for tight B roads that you think are the only roads that a GT3 should be judged on?

mrdemon said: I would say the 991gt3 is so fast not because of PDK but because of the ratios porsche gave the PDK. The 997.2 RS goes some way to help but every other GT3 is not geared right. As a road car, the boggo GT3' are fine, but the 991 GT3 is supreme.

Adam B said: Alpinestars said: mrdemon said: I don't care what any one says, I would want this one. On what basis? Have you driven one? Status, looks? Desirability pure and simple If someone asked me to pick this or a 3.8RS I would chose this very time, no offence to the Porsche. Has a £15k ever won one of these Evo COTY type things over a £100k+ selection? They should offer 2 or 3 winners depending on price point What he said.

Carl_Docklands said: Adam B said: Alpinestars said: mrdemon said: I don't care what any one says, I would want this one. On what basis? Have you driven one? Status, looks? Desirability pure and simple If someone asked me to pick this or a 3.8RS I would chose this very time, no offence to the Porsche. Has a £15k ever won one of these Evo COTY type things over a £100k+ selection? They should offer 2 or 3 winners depending on price point What he said. There's been several Renaults featured in the top few on many occasions and a Clio 182 finished 3rd once. I don't see too much concern with price tag in EVOs work and its better for it IMO. Fact is a Speciale is twice as expensive as a 3.8 RS and that being said would you still choose the Ferrari? Or would you choose a Zonda over the Ferrari at 500k more again?? Or a P1 or 918 which IMHO personally are in another league desirability wise to even the Speciale

Yes they always chuck in a few affordable cars but they never win Think the Huaraya won as did the Zonda IIRC. Strange how they beat £15-20k hot Focus and Clios/Meganes when the journalists don't actually have to pay he asking price. (I like Evo and have subscribed of many years), just think pitting these cars against each other is a nonsense

braddo said: Do you want a 7 or 8 speed manual then? Listening to the Monza video posted above (where the driver gets to 6th on track) the ratios all sound sensibly spaced; 6th is geared such that the car hits top speed around maximum power. What do you propose to do about the higher gears if you shorten 2nd and 3rd? Or maybe like other people say (many times...), the GT3 is the wrong car for tight B roads that you think are the only roads that a GT3 should be judged on? Makes you wonder how CUP cars can race on track then :-)

Alpinestars said: Really? Great if you've got nice clear roads, a total PITA in most situations on UK roads. Probably one of the reasons it is so relatively cheap. Couldn't agree more. I count myself as an above average driver (despite poor results this season!?) and eh opportunity to cane a GT3 on the open road is few and far between. Ever the more so with a CGT given its dimensions, LHD layout and packaging. The GT3s are just so much more practical, useable - whatever you want to call it. I can really drive my GT3/RS on the road with real intent. Of course it's rarely legal, but its possible some of the time. That's why it's the pinnacle for me. It's not as rewarding as flat out circuit driving for obvious reasons - but it's still spirited, rewarding and involving driving. As much as you can ask these days.

Alpinestars said: Yellow491 said: Are you realy seriouse,the gt is a special occasion to drive every time,unlike a gt3.its probably the most practical user friendly supercar there is, Really? Great if you've got nice clear roads, a total PITA in most situations on UK roads. Probably one of the reasons it is so relatively cheap. While I definitely would not go as far as yellow491 to call the cgt the most practical and user friendly supercar around, it isn't quite that bad on most situations surely to call it a pita. One really does not want to be stuck in a traffic jam in the car and to a lesser degree, traffic lights on an incline due to the clutch admittedly and the car is quite low but otherwise, while not any worse than any other wide high performance car? While wide, it's not more so than say a 458 whose mirrors extend quite a bit more.

isaldiri said: While I definitely would not go as far as yellow491 to call the cgt the most practical and user friendly supercar around, it isn't quite that bad on most situations surely to call it a pita. One really does not want to be stuck in a traffic jam in the car and to a lesser degree, traffic lights on an incline due to the clutch admittedly and the car is quite low but otherwise, while not any worse than any other wide high performance car? While wide, it's not more so than say a 458 whose mirrors extend quite a bit more. Lhd, the width and especially that clutch kill it as a road car for me. Feel a complete idiot driving it at lights on an incline. I'm sure there's a technique, but it shouldn't be so recalcitrant. A 458 is like driving a Fiesta in comparison.

Alpinestars said: Lhd, the width and especially that clutch kill it as a road car for me. Feel a complete idiot driving it at lights on an incline. I'm sure there's a technique, but it shouldn't be so recalcitrant. A 458 is like driving a Fiesta in comparison. Width wise i know it is dimensionally only slightly larger than the 12c although behind the wheel it does feel considerably larger i admit. Interesting to see different opinions on just how troublesome the clutch is though. The auto-throttle does feel quite unnatural and i agree definitely unnecessarily stressful at lights in general and on an incline in particular but it wouldn't be a definite deal breaker for me given what the car offers. That values remain relatively low is a good thing!

Alpinestars said: Really? Great if you've got nice clear roads, a total PITA in most situations on UK roads. Probably one of the reasons it is so relatively cheap. Thank you for correcting my spelling with a ?,i must try harder! Pita,so cheap,just because of uk roads,do i need to say anything further,you do need to concentrate on driving a drivers car,thats what is great about the car.

isaldiri said: While I definitely would not go as far as yellow491 to call the cgt the most practical and user friendly supercar around, it isn't quite that bad on most situations surely to call it a pita. One really does not want to be stuck in a traffic jam in the car and to a lesser degree, traffic lights on an incline due to the clutch admittedly and the car is quite low but otherwise, while not any worse than any other wide high performance car? While wide, it's not more so than say a 458 whose mirrors extend quite a bit more. The cgt,is fine at traffic lights,traffic,narrow roads,inclines etc.It makes the gt3 feel tame and a walk in the park. What is even more practical than most of the other so called supercars is the build quality,durability,and service costs .

pistolp said: Couldn't agree more. I count myself as an above average driver (despite poor results this season!?) and eh opportunity to cane a GT3 on the open road is few and far between. Ever the more so with a CGT given its dimensions, LHD layout and packaging. The GT3s are just so much more practical, useable - whatever you want to call it. I can really drive my GT3/RS on the road with real intent. Of course it's rarely legal, but its possible some of the time. That's why it's the pinnacle for me. It's not as rewarding as flat out circuit driving for obvious reasons - but it's still spirited, rewarding and involving driving. As much as you can ask these days. Very well said,and agree completely

RDMcG said: Very well said,and agree completely You have excellent taste in cars and are obviously a very sensible chap! People like us are in short supply however, just like 3.8 RS'!

pistolp said: Alpinestars said: Really? Great if you've got nice clear roads, a total PITA in most situations on UK roads. Probably one of the reasons it is so relatively cheap. Couldn't agree more. I count myself as an above average driver (despite poor results this season!?) and eh opportunity to cane a GT3 on the open road is few and far between. Ever the more so with a CGT given its dimensions, LHD layout and packaging. The GT3s are just so much more practical, useable - whatever you want to call it. I can really drive my GT3/RS on the road with real intent. Of course it's rarely legal, but its possible some of the time. That's why it's the pinnacle for me. It's not as rewarding as flat out circuit driving for obvious reasons - but it's still spirited, rewarding and involving driving. As much as you can ask these days. Have you driven a CGT? I'm a lucky boy, in my toy box I currently have a CGT, 996 GT3 RS and 430 Scuderia. I love my 6RS very, very much and think it is a wonderful involving drivers car. I also race (an E36 M3) and I'm usually on the podium so I like to think I understand a little bit about what makes a car special from a drivers point of view. I can hand on heart say there is no way an RS is better than a CGT. I accept the clutch takes some getting used to, but once you've got it it's fine - a bit like riding a bike. Yes it's LHD, but again you get used to it. As long as it on the right tyres it is the most engaging car I have driven on the road. The engine, feed back, chassis balance, gearbox and sheer speed of the thing are in a different league to the RS. It also has that wonderful Porsche aspect of requiring the driver to think about what they are doing to unlock the best from the car, and it will bite you if you are stupid with it. To boot you can also take the roof of it without compromising the driving the experience, it's a proper hyper car and it sounds like the devil when it's wrung out. Drive them 150 miles back to back around the lake district or Scottish highlands and then ask your self honestly which one you prefer. It's a no brainer to me.

I am sure its good. But to me a great car is a one that you can just open the garage door and take out on any road and in any conditions. There are no imperfections such as the clutch or whatever. It's just a weapon. I also love the size and balance of 911s. At the end of the day I've never seen a CGT being drifted around a wet roundabout. In fact I'd wager most owners pootle home with their cheeks clenched when its wet. That's why I prefer 911s. I'm not saying its better full stop. But to me a great car never be a supercar. I just can't treat them as just a car like I can with my 911s.

pistolp said: I am sure its good. But to me a great car is a one that you can just open the garage door and take out on any road and in any conditions. There are no imperfections such as the clutch or whatever. It's just a weapon. I also love the size and balance of 911s. At the end of the day I've never seen a CGT being drifted around a wet roundabout. In fact I'd wager most owners pootle home with their cheeks clenched when its wet. That's why I prefer 911s. I'm not saying its better full stop. But to me a great car never be a supercar. I just can't treat them as just a car like I can with my 911s. I can relate to that viewpoint. But would not mind a CGT for those special events.

pistolp said: I am sure its good. But to me a great car is a one that you can just open the garage door and take out on any road and in any conditions. There are no imperfections such as the clutch or whatever. It's just a weapon. I also love the size and balance of 911s. At the end of the day I've never seen a CGT being drifted around a wet roundabout. In fact I'd wager most owners pootle home with their cheeks clenched when its wet. That's why I prefer 911s. I'm not saying its better full stop. But to me a great car never be a supercar. I just can't treat them as just a car like I can with my 911s. I get your point of view, but trust me if you had the choice of which keys to pick the CGT wins every time, irrespective of weather. It's not as intimidating / big or cumbersome as you think, and you can drift them if you are patient enough to learn it's chassis balance and they are on the right tyres that telegraph the break away progressively rather than just let go. But each to their own I guess, that's what makes this an interesting place

Slightly off the Pork piste, but this sums up what's happening to hot hatches as time goes on, and why for me the DC2 is miles better than the R26R. http://mobile.pistonheads.com/doc.asp?c=52&i=3...

ravi355 said: I get your point of view, but trust me if you had the choice of which keys to pick the CGT wins every time, irrespective of weather. It's not as intimidating / big or cumbersome as you think, and you can drift them if you are patient enough to learn it's chassis balance and they are on the right tyres that telegraph the break away progressively rather than just let go. But each to their own I guess, that's what makes this an interesting place I had a fair amount of experience with the CGT, though never owned one. It took me a good hour to get used to the clutch when I first drove it though. I had the choice of accelerating like a 90 year old Miami Crown Vic driver, or a drag-race takeoff. The tires were definitely an issue and needed to be warm, no question. ( I am told that there is a huge improvement with modern rubber, but have not experienced it, to be honest. Relative to the RS it was really too much car for me and my sense was that it took immense skill to get the best out of it. I had it up to about 285km/h at one point once it was warmed up, and the sound was simply glorious. It is a brilliant car, but I am quite happy in RS land for my particular skills.( and wallet ) Here is an Autoweek review I wrote the first time I drove it. http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/taming-tiger-...

Let's see some onboard of wet weather drifting in the CGT? Next time it rains I'll get the gopro and post some up (privately) of me doing as described in one of my RS', which all get the proper treatment. There is proper balls out drifting and there is making a quick correction....for me the 911 is awesome at the former. They are ridiculously forgiving.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iR2nVOK0WZU I think some need to drive the cgt,mine was on the road all year,open the garage any time and drive,even white with salt at times.The tyres let the car down in cool weather,but like most cars drive it correctly and it will reward you. Plenty of owners drift there cars wet or dry in controlled environments,tim in the link is a good example. Sorry the gt3 is not in the same league and never will be.

pistolp said: Let's see some onboard of wet weather drifting in the CGT? Next time it rains I'll get the gopro and post some up (privately) of me doing as described in one of my RS', which all get the proper treatment. There is proper balls out drifting and there is making a quick correction....for me the 911 is awesome at the former. They are ridiculously forgiving. The CGT is simply on another level to any 911 derivative (I've owned 964RSCS/993RS/993GT/996GT2/997GT3RS 3.8). I agree a 911 is a great car to slide about, you can take some big liberties with them and be brutal. The CGT needs a more delicate approach, but given time, effort and patience it can reward like no 911 I've ever driven: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD76NPAluvE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UptGlHigYks After 8 years with the CGT, the 911's I've had have all come and gone (except my 4.1 litre MK1 GT3), don't miss them at all but would be devastated to part with the CGT. It's provided the most thrilling driving experiences I've ever had.

RDMcG said: I had a fair amount of experience with the CGT, though never owned one. It took me a good hour to get used to the clutch when I first drove it though. I had the choice of accelerating like a 90 year old Miami Crown Vic driver, or a drag-race takeoff. The tires were definitely an issue and needed to be warm, no question. ( I am told that there is a huge improvement with modern rubber, but have not experienced it, to be honest. Relative to the RS it was really too much car for me and my sense was that it took immense skill to get the best out of it. I had it up to about 285km/h at one point once it was warmed up, and the sound was simply glorious. It is a brilliant car, but I am quite happy in RS land for my particular skills.( and wallet ) Here is an Autoweek review I wrote the first time I drove it. http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/taming-tiger-... I saw a certain person once who had the car sideways with in 15 mins or so on a test drive,the poor sales guy has never been the same since;)bloody brits chewing up our roads!

Well we can't all be right. The guys at Evo have a fair idea what they are talking about. For me, I agree with them. Nothing beats the 911 for me. I've owned and driven pretty much every modern supercar so I'm confident that I've not overlooked anything. I nearly bought a CGT about 3m ago but decided against it as I just don't think I'd use it. For all the reason stated. But it's not meant as a slight to the car, so please don't feel the need to go defensive.

pistolp said: Well we can't all be right. The guys at Evo have a fair idea what they are talking about. For me, I agree with them. Nothing beats the 911 for me. I've owned and driven pretty much every modern supercar so I'm confident that I've not overlooked anything. I nearly bought a CGT about 3m ago but decided against it as I just don't think I'd use it. For all the reason stated. But it's not meant as a slight to the car, so please don't feel the need to go defensive. I dont think any one is being defensive,its just wrong to assume most owners drive clenched when wet,the car is easier to slide in the wet,and needs respect.There is a cgt owner in italy who uses his gt every day and well over 70,000 miles now. Most journos don't spend enough time with the cars to get to know them properly,and make regular bold assumptions,based on a few hours of driving them.Ask Tim schrick what he thinks of the cgt,if you think a gt3 is good ,you should try a cgt,you would not be disappointed.I am looking for another to enjoy,before i get to old! Rsr feedback is the truth.

Yellow491 said: I dont think any one is being defensive,its just wrong to assume most owners drive clenched when wet,the car is easier to slide in the wet,and needs respect.There is a cgt owner in italy who uses his gt every day and well over 70,000 miles now. Most journos don't spend enough time with the cars to get to know them properly,and make regular bold assumptions,based on a few hours of driving them.Ask Tim schrick what he thinks of the cgt,if you think a gt3 is good ,you should try a cgt,you would not be disappointed.I am looking for another to enjoy,before i get to old! Rsr feedback is the truth. Paul, is that you? If it is you're already too old;-)

993rsr said: Paul, is that you? If it is you're already too old;-) How did you guess;)thanks mate.i thought the spa vid had no driver,as i could not see you driving Hope you are well,we must get out to play.Over your way at classics at the castle early sept.

Yellow491 said: How did you guess;)thanks mate.i thought the spa vid had no driver,as i could not see you driving Hope you are well,we must get out to play.Over your way at classics at the castle early sept. All good mate, hope you guys are, may pop up in Sept.

I keep meaning to buy one before they get caught up in this market silliness. They are still quite sensible given what they are. I didn't mean to sound antagonistic by saying defensive, I just didn't want to get into a sparring match over which car is best! They are great cars I'm sure but I had an F50 and just never felt like driving it. It was just too big and so hard to wring out. There was never the right moment. And when there was it just felt even more illegal than in my dainty little RS'. The CGT is breathtaking to look at that's for sure. I can believe that it only gets better once you get rolling.

pistolp said: I keep meaning to buy one before they get caught up in this market silliness. They are still quite sensible given what they are. I didn't mean to sound antagonistic by saying defensive, I just didn't want to get into a sparring match over which car is best! They are great cars I'm sure but I had an F50 and just never felt like driving it. It was just too big and so hard to wring out. There was never the right moment. And when there was it just felt even more illegal than in my dainty little RS'. The CGT is breathtaking to look at that's for sure. I can believe that it only gets better once you get rolling. Do it

This has really got me thinking. I think the market is toppy but they are still reasonably sensible. Which is mad. They could justifiably be double what they are in these mad times.

pistolp said: This has really got me thinking. I think the market is toppy but they are still reasonably sensible. Which is mad. They could justifiably be double what they are in these mad times. So why are they not? Market is the ultimate arbiter?

The market doesn't make sense to me on many counts. The CGT is but another example of how illogical it is.

Its just not a great looking car....i have a 2rs and it just draws me in, aesthetically. Put all the driving dynamics, power, etc in a box for a moment and think about kerb appeal. A 911 has more kerb appeal. CGT has never done for me in that dept.

pistolp said: Well we can't all be right. I think we can. Best drivers' car is by definition, subjective.

In reply to pistolp Dont forget they are not exactly rare,in rare porsche terms ,not the best car to leave parked up in a collection,they need using. They also need a thorough check up at reading,low mileage can be a risk with expensive leaks etc Edited by Yellow491 on Saturday 16th August 21:34

I'm not a 'racing driver/ better than average/multi podium' poster, so feel I shouldn't really be commenting , but as regards why the CGT hasn't moved up in value ......it's massive, bites back, left hand drive, too quick to thrash safely and expensive to start with. Sort of falls into the Murci role for me. I like them, but would never buy one.

Robbo those are exactly the reasons why I haven't bought one. But I'm being seduced by it now for some reason. Right as they are getting ££££

Robbo66 said: I'm not a 'racing driver/ better than average/multi podium' poster, so feel I shouldn't really be commenting , but as regards why the CGT hasn't moved up in value ......it's massive, bites back, left hand drive, too quick to thrash safely and expensive to start with. Sort of falls into the Murci role for me. I like them, but would never buy one. Go and drive an F40, it fits with everything you have written plus has comedy turbo lag, but they have doubled in value in the past 4 years. There are also more F40's than CGT's produced. Its a very strange market - CGT is a very cheap car at the moment.

pistolp said: Robbo those are exactly the reasons why I haven't bought one. But I'm being seduced by it now for some reason. Right as they are getting ££££ Pistolp they have been 300K for the last 3 or so years and have just started to creep up. The last one Edward Lovett sold had 5 UK bidders on it. If you are in the position to, buy one. Worst case scenario is you scratch an itch and move it on with a minimal loss and maybe a small profit, best case scenario you see the light and can't stop driving the thing

pistolp said: Robbo those are exactly the reasons why I haven't bought one. But I'm being seduced by it now for some reason. Right as they are getting ££££ I don't think they are an investment.....easy to get a rise out of a £80-£140 car , as the market has shown. Doesn't mean the CGT will follow, and it hasn't. No racing pedigree either. Where on earth would you use it ?.

ravi355 said: Robbo66 said: I'm not a 'racing driver/ better than average/multi podium' poster, so feel I shouldn't really be commenting , but as regards why the CGT hasn't moved up in value ......it's massive, bites back, left hand drive, too quick to thrash safely and expensive to start with. Sort of falls into the Murci role for me. I like them, but would never buy one. Go and drive an F40, it fits with everything you have written plus has comedy turbo lag, but they have doubled in value in the past 4 years. There are also more F40's than CGT's produced. Its a very strange market - CGT is a very cheap car at the moment. The F40 was on the wall with the Debbie Harry poster....it has huge following and a far greater brand appeal in Ferrari. Can't compare in market terms. 9 out of 10 would take the F40 regardless of the inferior drive....

Robbo66 said: The F40 was on the wall with the Debbie Harry poster....it has huge following and a far greater brand appeal in Ferrari. Can't compare in market terms. 9 out of 10 would take the F40 regardless of the inferior drive.... Your right, but my point was in comparison to other cars of similar standing it's a very cheap car - F40, F50, Enzo, Zonda. I don't think it's an investment, but when 993 turbo S's, and RS 4.0 are changing hands for £250K and £350K respectively a GT at £320 to £370 is very good value given it's a modern usable super car.

ravi355 said: Your right, but my point was in comparison to other cars of similar standing it's a very cheap car - F40, F50, Enzo, Zonda. I don't think it's an investment, but when 993 turbo S's, and RS 4.0 are changing hands for £250K and £350K respectively a GT at £320 to £370 is very good value given it's a modern usable super car. Ravi, there's not another car of 'similar standing' to the CGT , and that's the issue. No benchmark. Agree re the 4.0 market....going East though where most right hookers head. Silly.

Robbo66 said: Ravi, there's not another car of 'similar standing' to the CGT , and that's the issue. No benchmark. Agree re the 4.0 market....going East though where most right hookers head. Silly. Depends on your yard stick. In 2004/05 there were many group tests for Enzo, CGT and Zonda. They just made more CGT's than the other 2. I'm looking at it from a drivers point of view.

ravi355 said: Robbo66 said: Ravi, there's not another car of 'similar standing' to the CGT , and that's the issue. No benchmark. Agree re the 4.0 market....going East though where most right hookers head. Silly. Depends on your yard stick. In 2004/05 there were many group tests for Enzo, CGT and Zonda. They just made more CGT's than the other 2. I'm looking at it from a drivers point of view. Those were both still twice the price +++ of the CGT from memory. The CGT has it's own microcosm as regards market terms...no one knows where it sits...so values plateau.

I've had two F40's and an F50. The F40 is great but it's pretty unreliable and now they are just too expensive. The F50 was just useless on most roads in most circumstances. I fear the CGT would be the same. I certainly don't look at it as an opportunity to make money, but you could buy one and probably not lose any. Having said that I think its a bit frothy to say the least. I think I'd just like one because it's an occasion car, awesome to look at it and much better engineered than the over priced Italian equivalent.

Robbo66 said: I'm not a 'racing driver/ better than average/multi podium' poster, so feel I shouldn't really be commenting , but as regards why the CGT hasn't moved up in value ......it's massive, bites back, left hand drive, too quick to thrash safely and expensive to start with. Sort of falls into the Murci role for me. I like them, but would never buy one. Not a racing driver and make no claims about being an above average driver but having been fortunate to drive one a couple of times, i could not agree more with 993rsr above. I genuinely don't quite understand the statement made quite often that the car is massive. It is ~10cm longer than cars like the 458/12c and 5cm longer than the 991gt3. It is about the same width as the 458/12c as well. as for too quick to thrash safely.... That applies to any of those 3 cars above and any really high performance car these days. It is a good thing imo values are remaining uncrazy (sorry owners). It makes the car still a viable purchase for an enthusiast and also viable to use without thinking the usage is costing you a fortune. That said, if pistolp did not like the F50 that much compared to the gt3s, perhaps the same would apply to the cgt.

My two cents: CGTs represent good (relative)value to my eyes given the looks, performance and scarcity in terms of the number you see on the roads and on the market. I think it seems to me a little misunderstood by the market and will come good in terms of values given where they started from, but that's just my opinion. I have always lusted after them and now am looking to buy one. I have a 3.8 RS and it is a remarkable car and whether it's on track or hacking around local roads, it's an absolute delight. I totally see why Evo gave it their accolade. It's an incredible all rounder. However, reference the comments on this thread re the two cars, for me the CGT is a notch above in terms of desirability and the fact that it is perhaps a little challenging to master is an attraction. For me it is the ultimate porsche thus far. Friends who have them certainly don't comment on the size of the CGT being an issue on UK roads. Personally am delighted the prices are not at F40 levels- hurrah!

Batster said: My two cents: However, reference the comments on this thread re the two cars, for me the CGT is a notch above in terms of desirability and the fact that it is perhaps a little challenging to master is an attraction. ! I agree what the CGT is definitely more "special". It is a true exotic with nothing in common whatsoever with the other cars in the range. While I still find the RS a better all round car to drive,and more practical for a normally talented driver, it is certainly less exotic than the CGT.

CGT is mega money to run and look after so it's not all about the buying. hit a speed bump in the CGT and it's prob going to be 18k worth of Carbon, some of the parts prices are telephone numbers on these cars, so you will need very deep pockets.

Lordy Lord http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

Alpinestars said: Lordy Lord http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... Chancer surely.

I half-jokingly offered mine (with lower mileage than the one that’s advertised) to a friend for £160k a while ago – I may have to reconsider my position! I can’t see it making the ‘ambitious’ asking price, but it does seem that prices are still on the up even with the onset of Autumn…

The question is "Is a 4.0 twice as good?" I get that they are far more limited in number than the 3.8, but we've seen more than one 4.0 go for very nearly £350K. In comparison a £180K 3.8 sounds like a bargain.... Shirley!

Alpinestars said: Lordy Lord http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... Thats the same car and advert that was up a while ago for £149k and didnt sell.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... Seems a firm bid.....

pete a said: Thats the same car and advert that was up a while ago for £149k and didnt sell. As long as the opportunity costs are close to zero the owner/trader has no urgency to shift this car hence the inflated asking price - quite a common factor in the classic car market these days.

Alpinestars said: mrdemon said: , this is the only manual GT3 with shorter ratios :-) Porsche finally thought to make this one usable. Shame it now has a 130k entry fee. It's really not that different to the 997 3.6. I've owned both 997 RS 3.6 and 3.8. Driven the 4.0L The 3.8 just does everything slightly better than the 3.6. Evolution rather than revolution. The 4.0L is the demonic youngster and as with so many of these cars it is actually getting more and more difficut to enjoy on the public road. Living in the SE of England doesn't help with shell cratered roads and 3rd world driving standards seemingly increasing (glad I don't ride a motorbike). Track days are getting more difficult as fewer insurers in the market increase their prices and the noise police get ever more control. Probably also explains why when we do escape to the continent so many of us get nicked for speeding. Many owners are stashing the cars away as prices soar and they start dreaming about such things as Boxster GT3 and Cayman GT3 which both offer a more sensible solution at a more affordable (for some). The 3.8L handles better and is faster than the 3.6L. It also has better equipment with updated PCM and other goodies. The 4.0L is quicker still but the suspension upgrades make it a less comfortable car to drive. If you have to be the fastest 997 on track the 4.0L is the one to have. For overall driving pleasure the 3.8 does as EVO describe in their article.

GJB said: The 4.0L is quicker still but the suspension upgrades make it a less comfortable car to drive. If you have to be the fastest 997 on track the 4.0L is the one to have. For overall driving pleasure the 3.8 does as EVO describe in their article. I suspect we are talking relativities here. I find the 4.0L completely comfortable for the cruise...no stiff suspension issues at all. I think if you put your self in 'waft' mode then it is no different to a german saloon. Albeit, if you then lean on it, it is a stiff setup...the damping is superb I guess. But then, I am used to a 996 GT3 and 996 GT3 RS

I actually find the 4.0 less stiff than the regular 997.2 GT3 (not RS) that I had before - so a bit more comfortable on UK roads. On the other hand, the noise level is quite a bit higher...

RDMcG said: I had a fair amount of experience with the CGT, though never owned one. It took me a good hour to get used to the clutch when I first drove it though. I had the choice of accelerating like a 90 year old Miami Crown Vic driver, or a drag-race takeoff. The tires were definitely an issue and needed to be warm, no question. ( I am told that there is a huge improvement with modern rubber, but have not experienced it, to be honest. Relative to the RS it was really too much car for me and my sense was that it took immense skill to get the best out of it. I had it up to about 285km/h at one point once it was warmed up, and the sound was simply glorious. It is a brilliant car, but I am quite happy in RS land for my particular skills.( and wallet ) Here is an Autoweek review I wrote the first time I drove it. http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/taming-tiger-... The only faultless Porsche