Do I need PDK or Manual? - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

So after 12+ years in my manual 996 turbo I'm looking for it's replacement - and apologies now for the waffling you might carry on and read! Considering a 718 GT4, 718 Spyder or 991.2 GTS, the 991's being even fewer on the market with a sticky cog changer. I don't do track days any more and it's not a daily driver, but will see use in nice weather and a few alpine road trips. I appreciate it's all subjective regarding which side of the fence you're sat on with this matter, but have any of you guys made the switch to PDK and embraced or regretted it? In my head, I feel I still need a manual, you know, more involving and all that but after using a DSG Golf as my daily for the last 4 years I can't help but love it for wafting around. I' know the advice will be go drive them but can't help feeling a half hour test drive, especially in a PDK, will tell the full story. Hence why I'm seeking input from the converted, or the remainer's!

Of no help whatsoever, but I've decided to give dct a try in my Emira that's on order. I'm a died in the wool manual gearbox man! I test drove a slushbox auto Evora and surprised myself that I liked it! ETA I still have my fix though, two manual single seaters, a 1963 lotus elan GTS and two 7s!!

I'm always a bit on the fence with this having been a manual gearbox fan for pretty much forever(I have a 370Z with a manual gearbox still). However I've had a M4 for 2 years and 17k miles with a DCT and I still love the car/gearbox big time(it is a daily though). Plus I recently drove my BILs 911(a 991.2 with the PDK) and I was absolutely blown away with how good the gearbox was. So I'm not much help either, but all I can say is that there is still fun to be had with only 2 pedals I reckon, and there was definitely a time where I thought that I'd never say that to be fair.

Historically I’ve only stuck to manuals pretty much all my life for weekend cars, apart from an F430 and a 458. The 430 manuals were +£30k at the time and I didn’t feel the difference was worth it. The 458 was DCT only so no decision to make. Changed back to manual Porsches for the next 4 years or so, then tried a GTS PDK and loved it. Banging through the gears definitely gives you the mini race car feel when you’re going for a blast. Great fun when pushing on and equally brilliant when you’re just cruising around. Probably the best ‘box out there IMO. On my second PDK now and not missing the manual gearbox in the Spyder, although I do have a couple of manuals as well. For me and what I use the car for (similar to your usage by the sound of it), it’s just perfect. If I get another Porsche, the rest of the spec would be more important for me now, the gearbox isn’t really a consideration as they’re both so brilliant. As said, try one. You’ll know pretty quickly if it’s for you or not. Have fun with the search

I had a 996 turbo for 4 1/2 years and was considering a change to a 981 Cayman S (this was back in 2015). 996 was a manual and that's what I wanted in the 981. Before buying anything I thought I'd try a pdk having read so much about them. Drove 3 in the end and bought the 3rd. Owned it for nearly 6 years and loved it. Went back to a manual 996 after that as we had got a dog and needed the space. Had to move on from that sadly as the dog hated travelling in it, and a manual for me was the wrong choice also. I've had 3 manual Porsches and the pdk Cayman is the car I miss most. Suggest you try both pdk and manual, but make sure you use the pdk in sport/sport+ (if optioned with chrono) in manual mode. Don't just leave it in auto mode. Cayman is a great euro touring car with the 2 boots and space above engine cover. Very practical car.

I only ever drove manuals ,but went for a pdk with a 991.2 gts and then with the gt3 . I would say looking at the cars you are thinking of the consideration should include factors like the gearing.The GT4 gearing is crazy and realistically you end up not changing gear that often so I found the manual in the gt4 to be a bit frustrating because it was mostly a case of using one or 2 gears. Just try a pdk but remember you can use it in a manual manner ,a fact many seem to ignore

I find the 718 GT4/Spyder 4.0 engine to be pretty torquey so you don't have to rev it out everywhere to make progress. You can short shift and row the gears if you so desire and so I don't find the longer gearing, which works great on track, to be an issue. Each to their own though of course!

I have both - I keep one manual for those times when I want a solo back roads drive. However, with increasing traffic density whee I live I drive the PDK mainly and also on track -my modern RS do not offer manual anyway and I do not miss it.

Whilst my left leg works and I don't tend to drive in traffic when in the 'special' car.....it's manual. But then I'm never gonna drive it more than 5k miles a year and I need it to make me 'feel' good every time, and the matching of foot, revs and hand over just revs and hand makes me 'feel' better... like you say, all very personal. If I did more miles, sat in more traffic or did any track work, then yeah I'd definitely consider PDK...and with luck I have plenty of time to move onto a good auto later in life...

I’ve had both manual and PDK 911’s and GT4’s. I really can’t help you with this decision. I love both. However, in the PDK cars I literally never drive them in auto. Get in, start the car, select drive, then push the lever to manual mode. Just moved from a manual 718 GT4 to a new PDK 718 GT4 and have to admit that the PDK really does suit the GT4. I am enjoying more than I expected. But I’d be happy with either. Clear as mud, I know….

For a weekend car that only does leisure trips clearly should be a manual. But if you actually plan to use it to go anywhere, commute, City drive or even track it I prefer PDK.

Thanks for all your feedback so far and some interesting comments. Seems very positive for PDK with no negative comments really, and no regrets either. I've heard the manual GT4's have a leggy gearbox with tall ratio's and picked up on RPM Technik offering a smaller crown & pinion to overcome this, ideally fitted of course when you need a clutch but that could take a few full moons to arrive at that point in ownership. Definitely need to experience both, and that's easier said than done without looking like a tyre kicker, and who knows I may end up liking it! If anyone's based in North Yorkshire, well ok it's a big county, let's say close ish to York and fancies taking me out in theirs I'd happily throw you some beer tokens. Keep 'em coming! Cheers.

I bought mine from RPM, and budgeted to have the gear ratios sorted at the time of purchase. They effectively 'refused', insisting I live with it a year or so to make sure its something I actually need rather than doing something off the back of hearsay. I'm 6 months in and just over a thousand miles of motorway stuff and up and down Wales stuff... I have yet to actually feel short changed by the ratios... (and that's coming from an S2000....) and am actually grateful for RPM's attitude with regards to the issue.

All I'll say is this: If you haven't driven a PDK, you need to try it for yourself. I was always on the "I'm never owning an automatic" side, until I tried some modern automatics. BMW M DCT & PDK are nothing like the awful 3 speed slushboxes from 20 years ago. Even the ZF8 found in a lot of cars now is a very different thing to those ancient autos that a lot of us think about. I still have a manual in my toy car (Boxster S), but for my day to day car I've switched over to auto. If I was only running one car it would be auto now, either DCT / PDK or even a ZF8.

I have had a few of both. Most recently I changed a manual 718 Spyder for a PDK Spyder. Night and day the PDK box is a better fit for the Spyder. Apart from the slightly lower gearing which as others have said is not a massive issue, the thing I noticed most in back to back use is the response of the PDK on the motorway and in normal open road driving, when the traffic clears or you want a quick getaway it is so much nicer to be instantly on it rather than having to poke about and find a suitable gear. The other big difference is the fuel economy, the PDK is way better than the manual. Not that this matters to the powerfully build PH types obviously. Top down, arm out of window, slushbox working away, banging tunes on full blast, what’s not to like.

Clearly there are no absolute right or wrong answers to this one, it's all opinions so here's mine I had a manual 996 Turbo before a series of M cars with DCT (M3 SMG, V8 M3, M4 Competition) because I felt I really needed those faster gearshifts. I don't do track days but I do a big Euro trip at least once per year and decided I'd be rocket fast in to the mountain hairpins whacking down the gears with a twin clutch. And indeed, I'm sure I was quicker than in a manual. However, the longer I had a twin clutch the more I began to feel it was all a bit easy, a bit clinical, particularly the upshifts. I felt myself leaning back towards manual so bought a new manual M2 Competition, which I absolutely fell in love with. It was a cracking little car and so engaging with the manual box. So with apologies for all the BMW ramblings and to bring it back on track I recently bought one of the cars actually mentioned by the OP, a 991.2 GTS manual. I cannot believe how good it is, which I appreciate simply means it meets all my criteria but by any objective standards it's a cracking piece of kit. It has the factory shortshift which gives it such a lovely snickety snick shift and of course it has rev matching so I'm just as quick in to those pesky downhill hairpins as I ever wanted to be. For the use I put it to (ie virtually never in town) I would definitely take it over the PDK, it has all the engagement I could wish for. But as I said, it's just another opinion

I also have both in 9A1 Ge n 2's and agree with RDMcG and Ohio7274 - for a sporty drive = manual seems more exciting but for normal road use definitely PDK. only exception is my 4 litre Gen 2 which has so much torque when you "kick down" and is so quick in "manual" it seems to cover both driving options. If I couls onlt have one it would have to be PDK (and can also use to left foot brake - unlike tips). Baz

Magnum 475 said: All I'll say is this: If you haven't driven a PDK, you need to try it for yourself. I was always on the "I'm never owning an automatic" side, until I tried some modern automatics. BMW M DCT & PDK are nothing like the awful 3 speed slushboxes from 20 years ago. Even the ZF8 found in a lot of cars now is a very different thing to those ancient autos that a lot of us think about. I still have a manual in my toy car (Boxster S), but for my day to day car I've switched over to auto. If I was only running one car it would be auto now, either DCT / PDK or even a ZF8. I can't believe how much I've changed with this too. I love the M DCT in the M4, and I was completely blown away with how good the PDK was when I tried it as well. I don't even use the paddles or the gearshifter in the M4, but I still think that it is a really good gearbox though.

The PDK is the best auto box in production, and I love it in my Macan, but for me the manual with GT4 short shift in my Cayman wins hands down for an involving road car experience. Tracking/commuting may be another story, but that doesn’t concern me.

I've had two Macans and now a 530D Beemer (don't ask). As the head of Ferrari said when questioned about them ditching manuals, 'They are a nostalgic choice'. Given the huge number of vehicles on the road coupled with road works, jams and 'smart' motorways, pushing a pedal and waggling a stick is an inconvenience. If folk like to do that, that's fine but a PDK box is so good, it makes a manual almost a barve choice. Resale market is smaller for manuals too.

I’ve just bought a MY07 911 manual to add to my MY05 SLK 55 and MY22 BMW I3s. I drove the Porsche back to London from Leeds and wondered, honestly, what all the fuss is about manuals. Neither of my autos are the best on the market but autos make so much more sense than manuals in today’s over congested roads. Don’t get me wrong I’m glad that I have the manual over the TIp but this is only for resale. I’ve been driving manuals since the 1970’s - the world has moved on yet for some reason folk hanker after these things for normal daily driving. That said, check how much it costs to repair a PDK gearbox if it goes wrong and decide from there.

Lots of great feedback but the only person that really knows is you. Given your use case I would definitely give a lot of thought to a manual gearbox and how much that adds to your enjoyment of driving. As you can see some people really don’t like the manual gearing in the 718 GT4 and some have absolutely no problem with it…I guess it’s about what you enjoy as a driver.

I’ve a manual 718 Spyder and went to the PEC for a half day in a PDK GT4. I now have a 718 Spyder PDK incoming. I found the PDK-S in the GT4 so fast and reactive that I really enjoyed it and thought the engine really suited the box. I am planning on keeping the manual car for a while just to be sure but I think I know already which one I will be keeping long term. Would really suggest you take a half day at the PEC and try the car including in some local roads cos as Cheib said, there’s a lot of love for both but only you know which one suits you.

Red wine or white, meat or fish, St Moritz or St Tropez, football or rugby, brunette or blonde, city or country, tea or coffee ……? Life is about preferences.

If you prefer manual you are getting one of the very best manual boxes around ,likewise if you prefer pdk you are getting one if the very best dual clutches around .

LeighB said: So after 12+ years in my manual 996 turbo I'm looking for it's replacement - and apologies now for the waffling you might carry on and read! Considering a 718 GT4, 718 Spyder or 991.2 GTS, the 991's being even fewer on the market with a sticky cog changer. I don't do track days any more and it's not a daily driver, but will see use in nice weather and a few alpine road trips. I appreciate it's all subjective regarding which side of the fence you're sat on with this matter, but have any of you guys made the switch to PDK and embraced or regretted it? In my head, I feel I still need a manual, you know, more involving and all that but after using a DSG Golf as my daily for the last 4 years I can't help but love it for wafting around. I' know the advice will be go drive them but can't help feeling a half hour test drive, especially in a PDK, will tell the full story. Hence why I'm seeking input from the converted, or the remainer's! This is a single datapoint: I owned a Panny 4S with a PDK gearbox and was really underwhelmed by it. When you’re moving and leave it to shift for you, it’s super smooth to shift. It’s probably super quick too but it’s so smooth it’s quite hard to tell - it made me wonder what difference it offered over a conventional auto. I was surprised that when you leave it to shift it will pull away in 2, not 1. If you switch to shifting yourself you find that 1 is and incredibly short gear. And when you shift yourself, yes, it’s very quick to shift, but it still feels disarmingly like driving a good modern full auto box on the paddles. And it will creep when the car has stopped so you have to hold it still on the brake. In the end I could not work out why the PDK is thought to be so great. For reference I had manuals either side of the Panny, which were far more engaging to drive, and alongside all three cars I’ve had a single clutch automated manual which is - for me - the best of the bunch despite getting regularly panned by motoring journos. If the PDK in a 991 or 718 is set up differently, well fair enough. But I’d suggest a bit of sample driving to help you decide.

BlackWidow13 said: LeighB said: So after 12+ years in my manual 996 turbo I'm looking for it's replacement - and apologies now for the waffling you might carry on and read! Considering a 718 GT4, 718 Spyder or 991.2 GTS, the 991's being even fewer on the market with a sticky cog changer. I don't do track days any more and it's not a daily driver, but will see use in nice weather and a few alpine road trips. I appreciate it's all subjective regarding which side of the fence you're sat on with this matter, but have any of you guys made the switch to PDK and embraced or regretted it? In my head, I feel I still need a manual, you know, more involving and all that but after using a DSG Golf as my daily for the last 4 years I can't help but love it for wafting around. I' know the advice will be go drive them but can't help feeling a half hour test drive, especially in a PDK, will tell the full story. Hence why I'm seeking input from the converted, or the remainer's! This is a single datapoint: I owned a Panny 4S with a PDK gearbox and was really underwhelmed by it. When you’re moving and leave it to shift for you, it’s super smooth to shift. It’s probably super quick too but it’s so smooth it’s quite hard to tell - it made me wonder what difference it offered over a conventional auto. I was surprised that when you leave it to shift it will pull away in 2, not 1. If you switch to shifting yourself you find that 1 is and incredibly short gear. And when you shift yourself, yes, it’s very quick to shift, but it still feels disarmingly like driving a good modern full auto box on the paddles. And it will creep when the car has stopped so you have to hold it still on the brake. In the end I could not work out why the PDK is thought to be so great. For reference I had manuals either side of the Panny, which were far more engaging to drive, and alongside all three cars I’ve had a single clutch automated manual which is - for me - the best of the bunch despite getting regularly panned by motoring journos. If the PDK in a 991 or 718 is set up differently, well fair enough. But I’d suggest a bit of sample driving to help you decide. I'd imagine they're set up pretty differently, PDK doesn't creep on GT3s for example

BlackWidow13 said: This is a single datapoint: I owned a Panny 4S with a PDK gearbox and was really underwhelmed by it. When you’re moving and leave it to shift for you, it’s super smooth to shift. It’s probably super quick too but it’s so smooth it’s quite hard to tell - it made me wonder what difference it offered over a conventional auto. I was surprised that when you leave it to shift it will pull away in 2, not 1. If you switch to shifting yourself you find that 1 is and incredibly short gear. And when you shift yourself, yes, it’s very quick to shift, but it still feels disarmingly like driving a good modern full auto box on the paddles. And it will creep when the car has stopped so you have to hold it still on the brake. In the end I could not work out why the PDK is thought to be so great. For reference I had manuals either side of the Panny, which were far more engaging to drive, and alongside all three cars I’ve had a single clutch automated manual which is - for me - the best of the bunch despite getting regularly panned by motoring journos. If the PDK in a 991 or 718 is set up differently, well fair enough. But I’d suggest a bit of sample driving to help you decide. Gt3 pdk > other porsche pdk.

Mach said: So with apologies for all the BMW ramblings and to bring it back on track I recently bought one of the cars actually mentioned by the OP, a 991.2 GTS manual. I cannot believe how good it is, which I appreciate simply means it meets all my criteria but by any objective standards it's a cracking piece of kit. But as I said, it's just another opinion 100% agree. It's very good.

Thanks again for all the really good responses to this, much appreciated! Test driving a manual GT4 and PDK 4.0 GTS Cayman tomorrow morning, wonder what I'll think........

LeighB said: Thanks again for all the really good responses to this, much appreciated! Test driving a manual GT4 and PDK 4.0 GTS Cayman tomorrow morning, wonder what I'll think........ I think you'll be happy with either of those in your garage.

I note that a couple of the comments are that a PDK is great where people still have a manual car(s!) in the garage. I'm in that camp. I can't not have a manual, so if I have one fun car it has to be manual. It's hard to describe why but maybe it's simply the engagement factor. I've driven a couple of great handling autos but I have no desire to get up early to take them for a drive. I have been surprised how strong a feeling that was. So for a fun car I have to have one that has engagement and tactility and that absolutely must include a manual gearbox. If I had my 911 and a Caterham and was considering a third fun car...

Hi Leigh, I used to have the yellow Boxster S, we talked in York in a jam a few years back? I’ve had a 991.1 GTS now a 991.2 GTS. Changed purely because of the manual box. The PDK is brilliant, but it just isn’t as satisfying to use. I don’t care that’s it’s quicker, that’s not the point for me, I do track them but I’m no racing driver so the enjoyment bit is most important. As for the cayman (had a 981 GTS) vs 911? They’re very different, the balance of the Cayman chassis is an absolute delight, you need to balance power through the corners rather than the 911 approach, but the feeling when it pivots rounds your waist? Magical things. I’d try the GT4, and wouldn’t discount a GTS tbh- they’re 90% of the car, before making the call. For me the 911 was always a want, also with a small child is a little bit more practical. Anyway hope you’re well and good luck in the decision making. Edited by ellroy on Saturday 3rd June 15:13

ellroy said: Hi Leigh, I used to have the yellow Boxster S, we talked in York in a jam a few years back? I’ve had a 991.1 GTS now a 991.2 GTS. Changed purely because of the manual box. The PDK is brilliant, but it just isn’t as satisfying to use. I don’t care that’s it’s quicker, that’s not the point for me, I do track them but I’m no racing driver so the enjoyment bit is most important. As for the cayman (had a 981 GTS) vs 911? They’re very different, the balance of the Cayman chassis is an absolute delight, you need to balance power through the corners rather than the 911 approach, but the feeling when it pivots rounds your waist? Magical things. I’d try the GT4, and wouldn’t discount a GTS tbh- they’re 90% of the car, before making the call. For me the 911 was always a want, also with a small child is a little bit more practical. Anyway hope you’re well and good luck in the decision making. Hello matey, been a while and yes, keeping well and trust you are too. Be good to catch up again and have a look at the GTS. Maybe look me up on FB?

Well it was a worthwhile exercise with Porsche York organising a couple of cars to try. First I went out in a 4.0 GTS PDK and what a car it is, lovely place to be and the gearbox is just excellent, hardly found myself needing the paddles though did try them. Went very well performance wise, felt really planted and as an all rounder, what a great car. The sport and sport+ modes really alter the car's character depending on your journey and mood. Neither car I drove at ten tenths but was never asked to back it off! Manual GT4 next and as it was so busy around York on Saturday, we agreed just on a few laps of the estate where Porsche is and that is all that was needed, What a car! And with the manual box it makes you feel alive in it, so involved and it's action is rifle bolt like with such a short shift to the next cog, truly amazing. So now it's down to GT4 or a Spyder - love each of them for different reasons whilst underneath they are essentially the same car. And after all that in case you hadn't sussed it, the exercise was mainly to discover which type of gear changer I'd go for and it's manual all they way.

LeighB said: So now it's down to GT4 or a Spyder - love each of them for different reasons whilst underneath they are essentially the same car. . I’ve had two of each and both transmission types. They really are not essentially the same car! They are subtly different in quite a few ways. I was expecting the Spyder to be a convertible GT4 and I was wrong. The Spyder is just more laid back and gives more sensory feedback than the GT4. The Spyder is set up differently (10MM higher ride height for example) and you really notice it. I find the GT4 cabin to be a tiresome place to be on longer trips, lots of noise and drones. The Spyder is much nicer to live in day to day especially with the top down, the little flying buttresses on the hood do make a lot of wind noise with the hood up especially over 70MPH but I very rarely drove either of mine with the hood up, hood down it’s really good. The Burmester audio upgrade in the Spyder is fantastic (not available in a GT4). The Spyder does not have all the track day software as the GT4, for example the tyre pressure monitoring on the Spyder does not have the track setting of the GT4. The GT4 is unquestionably better on track. Little things but it all adds up. I prefer the Spyder it’s one of the best cars Porsche have ever made in my opinion.

What he said and it's rarer....not that you see fleets of GT4s.... road or track biased... open top or coupe I mean it's win win with fine margins for preference. Love mine to pieces.

bigmowley said: The Spyder is set up differently (10MM higher ride height for example) and you really notice it. That isn't true for the 718 though, which is what the OP is looking at? Suspension setup is the same for both 718 models I believe, although the PASM software may be a little different but Porsche haven't openly stated that I don't think.

Twinfan said: bigmowley said: The Spyder is set up differently (10MM higher ride height for example) and you really notice it. That isn't true for the 718 though, which is what the OP is looking at? Suspension setup is the same for both 718 models I believe, although the PASM software may be a little different but Porsche haven't openly stated that I don't think. Both my 718 Spyders went straight into my garage. Both my 718 GT4s scrape the splitter lip on the way in. I will absolutely guarantee that a GT4 is lower than a Spyder.

The splitter lip is slightly longer on the GT4, not sure about ride height

Personally I think when you go above 400 bhp you are better off with PDK/ DCT. Manual has a place but in a sports car or hot hatch not a supercar IMHO

LeighB said: Hello matey, been a while and yes, keeping well and trust you are too. Be good to catch up again and have a look at the GTS. Maybe look me up on FB? In France this week so apologies for not replying sooner. Happy to let you have a nosey will see if I can find you on fb.

Having driven 4 of the big Swiss mountain passes today, I fell totally in love with my pdk gearbox on the 991.2 GTS, a manual box would have been a real pain and a lot slower.

Busa mav said: Having driven 4 of the big Swiss mountain passes today, I fell totally in love with my pdk gearbox on the 991.2 GTS, a manual box would have been a real pain and a lot slower. I think what you actually mean is "you" would be a lot slower in your opinion and what you refer to as a real pain, I see as a real joy. I'm taking my manual 991.2 GTS to do those same passes in September and I rather doubt I'll be "a lot" slower than anyone, certainly not if the only difference between the cars is a PDK gearbox. The difference is marginal which means the best gearbox is whichever one you prefer

...and also.... I personally don't want to be 'faster' in the Swiss Alps. I want access to speed If/when I want, but I mainly want to enjoy the actual drive and everything that surrounds me... in fact the longer the drive can last the better....

Mach said: I think what you actually mean is "you" would be a lot slower in your opinion and what you refer to as a real pain, I see as a real joy. I'm taking my manual 991.2 GTS to do those same passes in September and I rather doubt I'll be "a lot" slower than anyone, certainly not if the only difference between the cars is a PDK gearbox. The difference is marginal which means the best gearbox is whichever one you prefer ?? I wouldn’t want PDK on our S2000 , I actually enjoy that , but as you say, whichever you prefer Going to Stelvio in a few days . Edited by Busa mav on Monday 12th June 16:29

Mach said: Busa mav said: Having driven 4 of the big Swiss mountain passes today, I fell totally in love with my pdk gearbox on the 991.2 GTS, a manual box would have been a real pain and a lot slower. I think what you actually mean is "you" would be a lot slower in your opinion and what you refer to as a real pain, I see as a real joy. I'm taking my manual 991.2 GTS to do those same passes in September and I rather doubt I'll be "a lot" slower than anyone, certainly not if the only difference between the cars is a PDK gearbox. The difference is marginal which means the best gearbox is whichever one you prefer Exactly.