GT4 video of 7:42 Nordschleife - Supertest sport auto - Page 4 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Video of the 7:42 run now available on youtube! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB9qJlpHvEs Enjoy / discuss...

Holy sh*t, that looks committed. I'm no expert on the ring but it looks like he was giving it some around there. Would be nice to see some of the numbers generated but I guess that will be in the magazine. Thanks for posting

Be a lot less effort with a PDK box Pretty hairy at the Angst Kurve mind

looked spectacularly unspectacular. I suppose that's mid engine cars for you. more of a concern was how often he was using 2nd, it certainly looks overgeared. oh well, bit late now, I'm getting one - although for another 20 grand one can have a mid engine car from the same stable (VW) with almost another 200 ponies in the back ! http://www.audi.co.uk/used-cars/used-car-locator/r...

seawise said: ..more of a concern was how often he was using 2nd, it certainly looks overgeared._ 10 to 15% shorter axle ratio will sort that for me.

Mermaid said: 10 to 15% shorter axle ratio will sort that for me. and likely void your warranty whilst you are at it!

AdamV12V said: Mermaid said: 10 to 15% shorter axle ratio will sort that for me. and likely void your warranty whilst you are at it! If they ever find out Coming out of Karussell and exiting Brunchen - 3rd gear seems to do it all.

Is that on Cup 2s? So same time as a 997.1 GT3, expect the GT4 corners and brakes a bit better on Cup 2s, so the 997 GT3 will probably be a little quicker in a straight line. Not bad for the money really, good time.

Mermaid said: seawise said: ..more of a concern was how often he was using 2nd, it certainly looks overgeared._ 10 to 15% shorter axle ratio will sort that for me. Sadly there are no options available yet! Not even for the standard 981.

Looked very undramatic and resolved as a machine, what would PDK take out of the time?

truck71 said: Looked very undramatic and resolved as a machine, what would PDK take out of the time? 5 seconds, subject to ratios?

scz4 said: Sadly there are no options available yet! Not even for the standard 981. Racers in the states of 987s where the 3.8 engine is fitted can use a 4.222 diff. Whether it fits a 981 with a 3.8 I have no idea - nor whether it is suitable for road use or too noisy I don't know. If anyone is keen to lower the gearing, it might be worth investigating.

I wonder what the official time will be?

not much time to be found on that lap, agree it still looks long geared.

thats a pretty impressive lap, car looks like it has bags of turn in, the first thing I thought before i watched that vid through Is i wonder if the GT4 has the same gearbox as a 981 S S, coming from a PDK I find mine ridiculously long legged, 2nd gear takes me to 83mph and pretty sure 3rd is 123 mph ? I could do pretty much do Croft circuit using 1 gear !! the next Sport Auto video autoplayed after that vid and its one of a 911 turbo, looks like it must be on a set of Nankangs, its understeering like a cat on a wood floor in comparison to the GT4 . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNTk8UloZW8

seawise said: looked spectacularly unspectacular. I suppose that's mid engine cars for you. more of a concern was how often he was using 2nd, it certainly looks overgeared. oh well, bit late now, I'm getting one - although for another 20 grand one can have a mid engine car from the same stable (VW) with almost another 200 ponies in the back ! http://www.audi.co.uk/used-cars/used-car-locator/r... True, but after you get it you can probably punt it on for another £10k and then only need a further £10k for the R8 V10

PorscheGT4 said: not much time to be found on that lap, agree it still looks long geared. Looked like a tidy lap - but quite a bit of time to be made by flat shifting gearchanges - certainly a few seconds - if you don't mind rebuilding the gearbox after a few laps.

Nearly as quick as a 991 C2s

Mermaid said: 10 to 15% shorter axle ratio will sort that for me. How easy Is that sorted ?

The fellow can peddle and incredible how flat the GT4 is everywhere. Looked long geared and needs another 120-200 bhp for the expert driver. Looked too easy to drive in this fellows mits

Phooey said: Nearly as quick as a 991 C2s That's a good comparison - same horses for different courses kind of. I suppose £15k difference between the two, and two child seats. & the 911 name.

2nd/3rd gear seemed to be the only 2 he needed (I didn't see him using 6th once, or did I blink & miss it ? ) EVO magazine complained bitterly that the Cayman gts was over geared, and Chris Harris said the same during his Hoon in the gt4. Unless you habitually spend your time on the Autobahn (surely not this cars intended forte ? ) what is the point in such high gearing. There were a few times on the vid where the car sounded a bit "flat" (as in sound, not as in flat-out) & yet it is only in 3rd, surely a car like this with a manual gearbox should be geared to zip through the ratios ? At least make 1-5 much closer & leave 6th as an "overdrive/autobahnstorming" ratio . . . well, too late now I guess.

no 6th gear on a Nordschlieffe lap....... WTF!?

Probably the longest and hence worst gearing I've ever seen in a car at the nurburgring.

Olivera said: Probably the longest and hence worst gearing I've ever seen in a car at the nurburgring. The old Audi S4 4.2?

In a GT3 at the ring there is only one corner where I could use second - wehrseifen...and even there you can get away with third on some laps. ...and you do need sixth on the Dottinger Hohe straight

When i saw him selecting 2nd before the Adenau exit i thought 'oh dear', perhaps they detractors have a point over the gearing! Who gives a toss about emissions and official fuel economy stats on a GT4? What a shame the budget didn't stretch to some shorter ratios.

Looked a little too aggressive to me, turned in too early on a few corners as well, perhaps he's used to a car with a little more understeer? I reckon a smoother driver would have 3-4secs off that time - as would better (shorter) gear ratios... I think a lot of cars only need 3rd gear from Hohe Acht to Eiskurve, lots of short, sprint, stamp, turn, repeat sections, I love that area...

Jim1556 said: perhaps he's used to a car with a little more understeer Even more understeer!? Correct me if I'm wrong but the car in the video seemed to have massive amounts of understeer for a mid engined platform.

Like I said, it depends what he's used to... FWD Golf R? My point was, he obviously knows his way around and has oodles of confidence (you have to to take Angst Kurve at that speed), but, he was turning in very early on some corners meaning he then had to back off on the exit... Either that or it needs a £10k suspension refresh...

Mermaid said: 5 seconds, subject to ratios? Porsche claimed the pdk on the 991gt3 improved the ring time by 15 seconds. Motwyw.

franki68 said: Porsche claimed the pdk on the 991gt3 improved the ring time by 15 seconds. Motwyw. that would make it not that great a car in manual then !

How difficult is it to modify/shorten the final drive? I thought as opposed to single gears ratios it was relatively simple to achieve ? Also the last 997.2 GT3 suffered from same issue which was solved in the the RS by lower final drive and longer 6th to compensate. I think I had heard of GT3 owners fitting the RS final drive and leaving the 6th alone as 300kmh+ opportunities don't abound in real life. Or is it an impossible mod to achieve economically ?

PorscheGT4 said: franki68 said: Porsche claimed the pdk on the 991gt3 improved the ring time by 15 seconds. Motwyw. that would make it not that great a car in manual then ! The M3 CSL SMG & M3 manual are examples of how this can work out: M3 CSL 7:50 & the M3 is 8:22 = 32 seconds. However there are differences - less weight, cup tyres on the CSL, faster rack, better brakes and about 5% more power.

franki68 said: Porsche claimed the pdk on the 991gt3 improved the ring time by 15 seconds. Motwyw. That can't be possible. 15s on just the upshifts is way too much. 5 seems more likely to me.

isaldiri said: franki68 said: Porsche claimed the pdk on the 991gt3 improved the ring time by 15 seconds. Motwyw. That can't be possible. 15s on just the upshifts is way too much. 5 seems more likely to me. but its not just time changing gear, ratios on the PDK are a lump lower than the manual or they are on the two cars I currently own, think 2nd gear is something like 20mph shorter on the PDK to the manual . Pdk would give you a much better gear selection for each corner and at the ring there is a lot of corners .

Best advert for a PDK I've ever seen.

Excellent lap and very exciting to watch. Gearing does seem to be a bit on the long side but I'd hope the 3.8 makes up for it off the track. Is it the camera perspective or does this driver sit extremely close to the wheel? I've noticed this in all of the videos on the channel, it seems like the wheel is just 15 cm from his chest.

Mermaid said: That's a good comparison - same horses for different courses kind of. I suppose £15k difference between the two, and two child seats. & the 911 name. The time for the 991 was a fully specced car if I recall correctly,power kit,ceramics,dynamic chassis thingy ,every 'driving option' available.a long way from only 15k more expensive.

Very frenetic lap from that chap. Was it the dodgy audio of was there loads of tyre screeching ?

isaldiri said: That can't be possible. 15s on just the upshifts is way too much. 5 seems more likely to me. Porsche figures ,I think it is very feasible on such a long track,If the difference between shifting in a manual and pdk is between lets say 0.2 and 0.4 seconds that would mean anywhere between 37 and 75 gearchanges would result in the difference.

swimd said: Excellent lap and very exciting to watch. Gearing does seem to be a bit on the long side but I'd hope the 3.8 makes up for it off the track. Is it the camera perspective or does this driver sit extremely close to the wheel? I've noticed this in all of the videos on the channel, it seems like the wheel is just 15 cm from his chest. Race drivers do generally sit closer than you would normally do on the road, but I have to agree, even my granny (if I had one) wouldn't sit that close.

franki68 said: Porsche figures ,I think it is very feasible on such a long track,If the difference between shifting in a manual and pdk is between lets say 0.2 and 0.4 seconds that would mean anywhere between 37 and 75 gearchanges would result in the difference. If I am bored, let me count timo kluck's gearchanges on the factory 4.0 RS lap later... 15 seconds still sounds a lot though. That would mean outside of gearbox and tyres, the 991gt3 would actually be no quicker than the 997.2 gt3 despite all the various other electronic bits widely held up as big performance improvements.

Does the 987 manual gearbox have shorter gearing than the 981?

isaldiri said: If I am bored, let me count timo kluck's gearchanges on the factory 4.0 RS lap later... 15 seconds still sounds a lot though. That would mean outside of gearbox and tyres, the 991gt3 would actually be no quicker than the 997.2 gt3 despite all the various other electronic bits widely held up as big performance improvements. My son often looks at how much time is lost in gearchanges and it can be 1 or 2 seconds a lap (on a typical 1 to 2 minute lap) compared with a really brutal manual racing change - and obviously PDK is faster still. So there might possibly be 15 seconds compared with a sympathetic manual gearchange and PDK on a near 8 minute lap - but like you I think it seems a lot. The GT4 driver certainly isn't being as brutal as someone really going for it might.

So... How a car, not built to be optimal around a pointless ribbon of tarmac in Germany, goes around said pointless ribbon of tarmac really does define what people want these days. Thank you for contributing to the problem. Porsche can't win. PDK gives 15 secs WE WANT PDK. But PDK is less involving WE WANT MANUAL. I know the solution is to offer both. But still, I find it amusing. Also, let's get back to the Nurburgring. Those who find 15 seconds, so a little over 1 second a mile, reasons to go on about PDK or the super long gearing (that no-one noticed on the first two generations of the car) seem to be missing the point that it's a circuit that probably 1% of track drivers can actually set consistent fast times on. Mainly because it's so f king dangerous, it requires you to either be massively talented with big balls, or just a psycho with no fear of death. Alternatively we can all just get our knobs out and slap them on the table and see who's got the biggest cock once and for all, because that's ALL that this is. It's utterly f king irrelevant unless you're planning on racing it, and if you were, one of the first things to go would be the gearbox anyhow, along with all the options people fret over, and the resale value. Basically this is a car that's designed for lucky, wealthy peeps to driver over to Spa, do a few laps with some chums and drive back again. How fast it goes round is irrelevant isn't it as long as it's a blast? Because there's always going to be some b d in a Radical or slicked up Caterham that's gonna be way quicker anyhow. So what's the actual point in arguing over a little over 1 sec a lap when they'll be 10sec up a lap around Spa, never mind the Ring. I really do wonder what people want from cars these days and what pleasure they derive from increasingly lardy, grippy, powerful machines that we, as consumers, keep demanding. When will it end? We're already at 200mph & 600+ hp on estate cars for f ks sake.

Mermaid said: PorscheGT4 said: franki68 said: Porsche claimed the pdk on the 991gt3 improved the ring time by 15 seconds. Motwyw. that would make it not that great a car in manual then ! The M3 CSL SMG & M3 manual are examples of how this can work out: M3 CSL 7:50 & the M3 is 8:22 = 32 seconds. However there are differences - less weight, cup tyres on the CSL, faster rack, better brakes and about 5% more power. Lol, I think the differences you list would pretty much some up why the csl was 30sec faster than a standard m3 never mind the smg gearbox over the manual!!

swimd said: Does the 987 manual gearbox have shorter gearing than the 981? no but yes as the 981 wheel tyre combo is bigger so speed in gear is higher in a 981 over a 987 noticeable as well having driven both back to back.

juansolo said: So... How a car, not built to be optimal around a pointless ribbon of tarmac in Germany, goes around said pointless ribbon of tarmac really does define what people want these days. Thank you for contributing to the problem. Porsche can't win. PDK gives 15 secs WE WANT PDK. But PDK is less involving WE WANT MANUAL. I know the solution is to offer both. But still, I find it amusing. Also, let's get back to the Nurburgring. Those who find 15 seconds, so a little over 1 second a mile, reasons to go on about PDK or the super long gearing (that no-one noticed on the first two generations of the car) seem to be missing the point that it's a circuit that probably 1% of track drivers can actually set consistent fast times on. Mainly because it's so f king dangerous, it requires you to either be massively talented with big balls, or just a psycho with no fear of death. Alternatively we can all just get our knobs out and slap them on the table and see who's got the biggest cock once and for all, because that's ALL that this is. It's utterly f king irrelevant unless you're planning on racing it, and if you were, one of the first things to go would be the gearbox anyhow, along with all the options people fret over, and the resale value. Basically this is a car that's designed for lucky, wealthy peeps to driver over to Spa, do a few laps with some chums and drive back again. How fast it goes round is irrelevant isn't it as long as it's a blast? Because there's always going to be some b d in a Radical or slicked up Caterham that's gonna be way quicker anyhow. So what's the actual point in arguing over a little over 1 sec a lap when they'll be 10sec up a lap around Spa, never mind the Ring. I really do wonder what people want from cars these days and what pleasure they derive from increasingly lardy, grippy, powerful machines that we, as consumers, keep demanding. When will it end? We're already at 200mph & 600+ hp on estate cars for f ks sake. Totally agree. These cars should be about fun, 'ring time is interesting but hardly the point. If you want the fastest thing since sliced bread on track, then get that new Ultima Evolution. Costs the same as a GT3 but will absolutely destroy anything on track with 1020hp and 950kg

franki68 said: Mermaid said: That's a good comparison - same horses for different courses kind of. I suppose £15k difference between the two, and two child seats. & the 911 name. The time for the 991 was a fully specced car if I recall correctly,power kit,ceramics,dynamic chassis thingy ,every 'driving option' available.a long way from only 15k more expensive. Power kit is 10% more power - how long before that is offered on the GT4. That would an even more enticing package

juansolo said: So... How a car, not built to be optimal around a pointless ribbon of tarmac in Germany, goes around said pointless ribbon of tarmac really does define what people want these days. Thank you for contributing to the problem. Porsche can't win. PDK gives 15 secs WE WANT PDK. But PDK is less involving WE WANT MANUAL. I know the solution is to offer both. But still, I find it amusing. Also, let's get back to the Nurburgring. Those who find 15 seconds, so a little over 1 second a mile, reasons to go on about PDK or the super long gearing (that no-one noticed on the first two generations of the car) seem to be missing the point that it's a circuit that probably 1% of track drivers can actually set consistent fast times on. Mainly because it's so f king dangerous, it requires you to either be massively talented with big balls, or just a psycho with no fear of death. Alternatively we can all just get our knobs out and slap them on the table and see who's got the biggest cock once and for all, because that's ALL that this is. It's utterly f king irrelevant unless you're planning on racing it, and if you were, one of the first things to go would be the gearbox anyhow, along with all the options people fret over, and the resale value. Basically this is a car that's designed for lucky, wealthy peeps to driver over to Spa, do a few laps with some chums and drive back again. How fast it goes round is irrelevant isn't it as long as it's a blast? Because there's always going to be some b d in a Radical or slicked up Caterham that's gonna be way quicker anyhow. So what's the actual point in arguing over a little over 1 sec a lap when they'll be 10sec up a lap around Spa, never mind the Ring. I really do wonder what people want from cars these days and what pleasure they derive from increasingly lardy, grippy, powerful machines that we, as consumers, keep demanding. When will it end? We're already at 200mph & 600+ hp on estate cars for f ks sake. Accepting entirely that the ring time is totally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things and no reason to buy or not buy PDK, manual or a GT4 at all - it doesn't stop it being a topic some of us are interested in talking about - even if the discussion is purely academic and will have no impact on our personal buying decisions.

juansolo said: So... How a car, not built to be optimal around a pointless ribbon of tarmac in Germany, goes around said pointless ribbon of tarmac really does define what people want these days. Thank you for contributing to the problem. Porsche can't win. PDK gives 15 secs WE WANT PDK. But PDK is less involving WE WANT MANUAL. I know the solution is to offer both. But still, I find it amusing. . Bad excuse to go on an anti ring time rant surely. So far, the main issue noted seemed to be that the gearing looks overly long and then it got into a discussion into how much pdk would change the ringtime rather than lamenting lack of pdk makes it slow (7:42 hardly is slow either....) Most people don't seem to be clamouring for pdk to make the car quicker, merely shorter ratios to make the car a better one to drive....you can't possibly not be surprised by the amount of the lap done in 2nd gear and think the car might be better with shorter ratios, not just faster but better full stop.

We'll see a quicker time than 7:42. I'd like to see the driver of the Megane Trophy R @ 7:54 have a go

Phooey said: We'll see a quicker time than 7:42. I'd like to see the driver of the Megane Trophy R @ 7:54 have a go I am not going back there for a while :-)

PorscheGT4 said: Phooey said: We'll see a quicker time than 7:42. I'd like to see the driver of the Megane Trophy R @ 7:54 have a go I am not going back there for a while :-) Seriously I doubt the "average" PH driver, with a clear track, can get below 8:20 with the GT4.

PorscheGT4 said: Phooey said: We'll see a quicker time than 7:42. I'd like to see the driver of the Megane Trophy R @ 7:54 have a go I am not going back there for a while :-) If it wasn't for them pesky GT3 boys getting in the way.... and you stopping for a p i s s....

Mermaid said: I doubt the "average" PH driver, with a clear track, can get below 8:20 with the GT4. GTFO. I could pi55 8:20 stopping for a bacon buttie at Tiergarten

isaldiri said: juansolo said: So... How a car, not built to be optimal around a pointless ribbon of tarmac in Germany, goes around said pointless ribbon of tarmac really does define what people want these days. Thank you for contributing to the problem. Porsche can't win. PDK gives 15 secs WE WANT PDK. But PDK is less involving WE WANT MANUAL. I know the solution is to offer both. But still, I find it amusing. . Bad excuse to go on an anti ring time rant surely. So far, the main issue noted seemed to be that the gearing looks overly long and then it got into a discussion into how much pdk would change the ringtime rather than lamenting lack of pdk makes it slow (7:42 hardly is slow either....) Most people don't seem to be clamouring for pdk to make the car quicker, merely shorter ratios to make the car a better one to drive....you can't possibly not be surprised by the amount of the lap done in 2nd gear and think the car might be better with shorter ratios, not just faster but better full stop. I find people complaining about the ratios comical when they're the same ratios we've always had, just with a more powerful and slightly higher revving engine. Be happy it's got a manual. There's just no pleasing people. Which I expect is exactly what Porsche's motorsport division would feel reading this thread.

juansolo said: I find people complaining about the ratios comical when they're the same ratios we've always had, just with a more powerful and slightly higher revving engine. Be happy it's got a manual. There's just no pleasing people. Which I expect is exactly what Porsche's motorsport division would feel reading this thread. Simple question - do you think the gt4 could be a better car with shorter ratios? I am glad the car is manual only, however i don't see any contradiction hoping it could be the best it could be.

Mermaid said: Seriously I doubt the "average" PH driver, with a clear track, can get below 8:20 with the GT4. I was only 34 secs off that in a 15yr old E36 with 220bhp... As for Mr 'pointless ribbon of tarmac', he's obviously not been!

Phooey said: Nearly as quick as a 991 C2s No, quicker. Here are the same driver’s times in other cars. The GT4 2 seconds ahead of a 991 C2S. EricE said: Even more understeer!? Correct me if I'm wrong but the car in the video seemed to have massive amounts of understeer for a mid engined platform. In stock config, it does have a bit of safety understeer with the default anti-rollbar positions. Set the front anti-roll bar in the soft position and the rear one in the stiff position and it'll be a lot more oversteer. The Cup2s, significantly increased section width, and different suspension (compared to the “Sport Chassis”/X73 Sport Suspension) keeps the GT4s a LOT more hooked up than an S/GTS. "Sport Chassis"-equipped cars are deliberately set up to be very slidey (ask me how I know! ) JeffC said: but its not just time changing gear, ratios on the PDK are a lump lower than the manual or they are on the two cars I currently own, think 2nd gear is something like 20mph shorter on the PDK to the manual . Have a GTS which is geared identically to a GT4. Nowhere near that huge a difference. 82-83mph is top of 2nd in a manual, 78mph in PDK. Third is more pronounced, where top of 3rd in the manual is around 112mph whereas it's around 103mph with PDK. Supposedly the reason for 2nd's gearing being kept the same in the GT4 is Andreas Preuninger likes passing slower traffic on normal roads at full chat, which that gearing always allows him to do. Moreover, watch the comparison between a GT4 and a PDK-equipped 991 Carrera4 GTS. Unsurprisingly the Carrera4 GTS takes it to 60mph (AWD, PDK, greater rear weight bias, more top end, more torque), but the GT4's 60mph-150mph is quicker -- by the time the Carrera4 GTS PDK hits 240kph, the Cayman GT4 has nearly caught up at 238kph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Do0JR__ZA84 Edited by Goofnik on Sunday 19th April 00:25

rosino said: How difficult is it to modify/shorten the final drive? I thought as opposed to single gears ratios it was relatively simple to achieve ? Also the last 997.2 GT3 suffered from same issue which was solved in the the RS by lower final drive and longer 6th to compensate. I think I had heard of GT3 owners fitting the RS final drive and leaving the 6th alone as 300kmh+ opportunities don't abound in real life. Or is it an impossible mod to achieve economically ? The 997.2 RS only had a lower final drive (3.89 v 3.44). The 6 gear ratios themselves were the same in the GT3 and the RS. As for the difficulty in shortening the final drive for the Cayman. Someone needs to make one first. AFAIK there is no one with a reliable R&P for that gearbox and I haven't heard of anyone looking into doing one. You could re-gear the box to get round the ratios to some extent. I know GT gears made a set of gears for BGB in their rolex Cayman that had good longevity. I am totally off reservation here as Caymans aren't my thing, but as I understand it, this gearbox has the same issue that all the street gearboxes have; namely that 2nd gear is fixed to the main shaft along with 1st. The race gearboxes have them removable. This means that you cannot change out 2nd gear in a simple fashion but instead are required to work around this fixed point. How big an issue this is will depend on what you want to run on the rest of the gears and what you want from the car but it's worth a mention. That being said, the other gears already exist as does an LSD that does something rather than the "do nothing, let the brakes act as the diff LSD" fitted if one actually wanted to look at sorting things out. On the flip side of all of this is the hard reality that that guy managed a 7.42 in the stock car with the stock ratios. If a new owner can't put that in then they probably don't need to be worrying too much about the long gear ratios holding them back just yet. Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 19th April 01:28

fioran0 said: The 997.2 RS only had a lower final drive (3.89 v 3.44). The 6 gear ratios themselves were the same in the GT3 and the RS. As for the difficulty in shortening the final drive for the Cayman. Someone needs to make one first. AFAIK there is no one with a reliable R&P for that gearbox and I haven't heard of anyone looking into doing one. You could re-gear the box to get round the ratios to some extent. I know GT gears made a set of gears for BGB in their rolex Cayman that had good longevity. Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 19th April 01:28 987 Caymans in the Pirelli World Challenge series are allowed a 4.222 diff - so presumably one exists, though whether it is suitable for a 981 road car I've no idea.

juansolo said: So... How a car, not built to be optimal around a pointless ribbon of tarmac in Germany, goes around said pointless ribbon of tarmac really does define what people want these days. Thank you for contributing to the problem. Porsche can't win. PDK gives 15 secs WE WANT PDK. But PDK is less involving WE WANT MANUAL. I know the solution is to offer both. But still, I find it amusing. Also, let's get back to the Nurburgring. Those who find 15 seconds, so a little over 1 second a mile, reasons to go on about PDK or the super long gearing (that no-one noticed on the first two generations of the car) seem to be missing the point that it's a circuit that probably 1% of track drivers can actually set consistent fast times on. Mainly because it's so f king dangerous, it requires you to either be massively talented with big balls, or just a psycho with no fear of death. Alternatively we can all just get our knobs out and slap them on the table and see who's got the biggest cock once and for all, because that's ALL that this is. It's utterly f king irrelevant unless you're planning on racing it, and if you were, one of the first things to go would be the gearbox anyhow, along with all the options people fret over, and the resale value. Basically this is a car that's designed for lucky, wealthy peeps to driver over to Spa, do a few laps with some chums and drive back again. How fast it goes round is irrelevant isn't it as long as it's a blast? Because there's always going to be some b d in a Radical or slicked up Caterham that's gonna be way quicker anyhow. So what's the actual point in arguing over a little over 1 sec a lap when they'll be 10sec up a lap around Spa, never mind the Ring. I really do wonder what people want from cars these days and what pleasure they derive from increasingly lardy, grippy, powerful machines that we, as consumers, keep demanding. When will it end? We're already at 200mph & 600+ hp on estate cars for f ks sake. I think it is simple we want a new category for manuel cars with 3 pedals. I hear about the HP, but fast cars can still be involving much as slick on race cars can be fun. To those that want the ultimate, isn't it great? To those that don't need it or predominantly use them on the road, there's a whole variety of cooking versions that will do nicely w/o the manhood display.

juansolo said: isaldiri said: juansolo said: So... How a car, not built to be optimal around a pointless ribbon of tarmac in Germany, goes around said pointless ribbon of tarmac really does define what people want these days. Thank you for contributing to the problem. Porsche can't win. PDK gives 15 secs WE WANT PDK. But PDK is less involving WE WANT MANUAL. I know the solution is to offer both. But still, I find it amusing. . Bad excuse to go on an anti ring time rant surely. So far, the main issue noted seemed to be that the gearing looks overly long and then it got into a discussion into how much pdk would change the ringtime rather than lamenting lack of pdk makes it slow (7:42 hardly is slow either....) Most people don't seem to be clamouring for pdk to make the car quicker, merely shorter ratios to make the car a better one to drive....you can't possibly not be surprised by the amount of the lap done in 2nd gear and think the car might be better with shorter ratios, not just faster but better full stop. I find people complaining about the ratios comical when they're the same ratios we've always had, just with a more powerful and slightly higher revving engine. Be happy it's got a manual. There's just no pleasing people. Which I expect is exactly what Porsche's motorsport division would feel reading this thread. long ratios not bad on track, less shifting.

isaldiri said: juansolo said: I find people complaining about the ratios comical when they're the same ratios we've always had, just with a more powerful and slightly higher revving engine. Be happy it's got a manual. There's just no pleasing people. Which I expect is exactly what Porsche's motorsport division would feel reading this thread. Simple question - do you think the gt4 could be a better car with shorter ratios? I am glad the car is manual only, however i don't see any contradiction hoping it could be the best it could be. You've got to accept that it's never going to be everything it could be due to it's position in the product range. So in a way, it is the best it could be...

Jim1556 said: As for Mr 'pointless ribbon of tarmac', he's obviously not been! I have, twice (photographic evidence here from the first time: http://juansolo.co.uk/motas/bbt5.html). Still think it's pointless for many reasons. Firstly it's not representative of any road or other race track out there, in that respect it's unique and in the real world proves nothing. It's unique nature means building a car to go fast around there compromises it for everywhere else. Which is why when people put so much emphasis on lap times there, it makes me wince. The only point of the Nurburg ring is willy measuring. Even Derek Bell reckoned Stefan Bellof disconnected his brain to set that lap around it. It's an experience, don't get me wrong, and I suspect if you lived near there, it'd be a lot of fun. But from the point of view of actual track driving, Spa or Mugello makes it look s t. Edited by juansolo on Sunday 19th April 09:00

bcr5784 said: 987 Caymans in the Pirelli World Challenge series are allowed a 4.222 diff - so presumably one exists, though whether it is suitable for a 981 road car I've no idea. Note that I said "reliable" in my post. I know of one car that ran a shorter R&P in World Challenge last season though there could have been more. They were only managing to get a single race out of the R&P.

fioran0 said: Note that I said "reliable" in my post. I know of one car that ran a shorter R&P in World Challenge last season though there could have been more. They were only managing to get a single race out of the R&P. Odd that a team has just requested and been granted permission to run that diff in the GTS class http://www.world-challenge.com/index.php?option=co... so it will be informative to see how they get on.

juansolo said: I have, twice (photographic evidence here from the first time: http://juansolo.co.uk/motas/bbt5.html). Still think it's pointless for many reasons. Firstly it's not representative of any road or other race track out there, in that respect it's unique and in the real world proves nothing. It's unique nature means building a car to go fast around there compromises it for everywhere else. Which is why when people put so much emphasis on lap times there, it makes me wince. The only point of the Nurburg ring is willy measuring. Even Derek Bell reckoned Stefan Bellof disconnected his brain to set that lap around it. It's an experience, don't get me wrong, and I suspect if you lived near there, it'd be a lot of fun. But from the point of view of actual track driving, Spa or Mugello makes it look s t. Edited by juansolo on Sunday 19th April 09:00 Fair enough, it's not for everyone. But it is a Damn good comparison for highlighting a car's weaknesses though. Plus, the atmosphere, people you meet and cars you see there - no other place like it...

bcr5784 said: Odd that a team has just requested and been granted permission to run that diff in the GTS class http://www.world-challenge.com/index.php?option=co... so it will be informative to see how they get on. Jack Baldwin ran a shorter R&P last year in his car in WC. It was made by EMCO and they were getting a race out of one. It doesn't seem to be any secret as far as I can tell. I'm sure if you ask around you can find out more. As I previously said, Caymans aren't my thing so I'm off reservation with them to some extent. This was just something I knew from wider discussions. Given the WC races are capped at 50 mins. An R&P that knocks itself to death over a race weekend give or take is not something I would consider reliable in a wider context. Should make a great mod for a GT4 or other road going Cayman!! Regarding your link, an optional final drive has always been allowed as per the rules in WC afaik. All that VTS change request seems to be doing is fixing the optional final drive allowed as per rules section 2.5.2 to a ratio of 4.22. The Cayman VTS sheet for 2015 now lists 3.875 and 4.22 as being the approved options for those cars. Note it was PMNA that requested this, not a team. Odd in what way? Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 19th April 12:51

fioran0 said: Jack Baldwin ran a shorter R&P last year in his car in WC. It was made by EMCO and they were getting a race out of one. It doesn't seem to be any secret as far as I can tell. I'm sure if you ask around you can find out more. As I previously said, Caymans aren't my thing so I'm off reservation with them to some extent. This was just something I knew from wider discussions. Given the WC races are capped at 50 mins. An R&P that knocks itself to death over a race weekend give or take is not something I would consider reliable in a wider context. Should make a great mod for a GT4 or other road going Cayman!! Regarding your link, an optional final drive has always been allowed as per the rules in WC afaik. All that VTS change request seems to be doing is fixing the optional final drive allowed as per rules section 2.5.2 to a ratio of 4.22. The Cayman VTS sheet for 2015 now lists 3.875 and 4.22 as being the approved options for those cars. Note it was PMNA that requested this, not a team. Odd in what way? Edited by fioran0 on Sunday 19th April 12:51 Thanks for that. Interesting and informative stuff. As you say an optional diff ratio is allowed in the regs - I only thought it odd that there was a request to use this particular ratio if the diff in question was known to be unreliable.