New (To Me) 981 Cayman S - Poor Handling - Page 5 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Hi Everyone, Thank you for all the help in my other post. I have recently purchased a 981 Cayman S with 40k miles and whilst the car is amazing (sound, engine, gearbox!) I am finding that the car feels quite unsettled at speed, especially on B roads and seems to be particularly bad when pasm is on The issue is hard to describe, but the car feels like it is wandering left to right, "un-settled" in the corners and the steering wheel has more twitchy movements than I would expect for this sort of car (for reference previous cars are E46 M3, F87 M2, V8 Vantage) My current thoughts are that is can only really be alignment, tyres, suspension, or worst case, accident damage. My plan is to work through the most likely (and cost effective) options first, starting with an alignment I have experimented with tyre pressures (not extensivley yet) and this dosn't seem to have helped. When I picked the car up, all pressures were set at 35, I have reduced fronts to 33 and rears to 34.5, but no noticeable difference The car is on p-zero's all round, the rears are brand new, however the fronts only have 2-3mm on them and crucially were manufactured in the middle of 2016 so it's possible that this could be an issue - would appreiciate thoughts My first steps are probably to a) replace front tyres (I would like to go michelin PS4, but not sure if I should run PS4 on the front and P-Zero rear) b) get an alignment done c) get the suspension inspected by a decent porsche indy who knows what to look for Would appreciate thoughts / advice on the tyres and the issue in general! Thanks

Sounds like some new tyres like ps4 or new conti sport 7 and a hunter 4 wheel alignment should sort the problem.

I'd get the alignment checked first, at somewhere who specialises in getting it spot on. That's your cheapest and most likely culprit I think. They should also be able to check the major suspension and steering components at the same time...

Oh, and PASM is always "on". Pressing the button puts it in sport mode, which is firmer, so not the best choice for a bumpy UK B road.

I had issues with my 981s when I first had it but mine had brand new PZeros all round. I set the pressures to 33 all round, it seemed to like that. I also had an alignment done at JZM which really, really helped. After that the car was superb. I'd set the pressures, new fronts (I was fine with N spec PZeros but I appreciate many do not like them) and get the alignment done. Just to add mine suffered from the following: Vague turn in The back end was skittish under hard braking The front would go very light (excessively so I thought) in off camber corners and high speed corners Dan Edited by dans160 on Sunday 5th June 14:29

I swapped my V8V for a 981 cayman S last year and have personally found the handling of the porsche to be a big step up! I have PS4S on the the cayman so would recommend changing the tyres. From what you're describing checking the alignment would be worthwhile too

Thanks for all the replies so far, I am going to start with alignment and get some PS4 on the front and go from there! I will report back here once they are done

As Twinfan said PASM is always 'on'. By pressing the button (and illuminating the light) you are putting the dampers into their stiffest setting. I hardly ever use that setting as it can make the car a little skittish on anything other than pristine tarmac. I'd recommend any new Boxster or Cayman owner gets the alignment checked by a specialist as it can make an enormous difference to the way the car handles. Just be careful who you choose to do it. I ditched my P Zeros as they were terrible in anything other than 20 deg C plus temperatures. I went with Goodyears.

SE24 said: …..but not sure if I should run PS4 on the front and P-Zero rear That does not seem like a sensible thing to do to. Better to write off the rears and get PS4’s all the way around

I'd also look at your suspension links - coffin arms and tuning forks especially. They seem to be a wear and tear item and if you can verify they are all ok then you have taken a big possible variable out of your equation. Swap first if needed and go to alignment afterwards. My 981CS with similar mileage is a different car after that process. I changed front tuning forks and rear coffin arms with poly bushes from Spyder Performance. https://www.spyderperformance.co.uk/shop/suspensio... Car is a lot quieter now as well. Edited by andygo on Monday 6th June 12:35 Edited by andygo on Monday 6th June 12:36

If you can I’d highly recommend a booking at Centre Gravity. Do a search here and you will see nothing but positive reviews. I took my 997 there as I had similar issues at higher than average speeds and they completely changed the feeling of the car. I took my 991 there the other week and didn’t think I’d see much improvement as I was pretty happy with it but they worked their magic and improved what I didn’t think could be improved. If you can’t get to them look for a specialist near you. The key here is that it needs to be a 4 wheel alignment. I’d be surprised if this doesn’t solve all your issues.

Boardingnath said: If you can I’d highly recommend a booking at Centre Gravity. Do a search here and you will see nothing but positive reviews. I took my 997 there as I had similar issues at higher than average speeds and they completely changed the feeling of the car. I took my 991 there the other week and didn’t think I’d see much improvement as I was pretty happy with it but they worked their magic and improved what I didn’t think could be improved. If you can’t get to them look for a specialist near you. The key here is that it needs to be a 4 wheel alignment. I’d be surprised if this doesn’t solve all your issues. You still need to ensure all your suspension bushings etc are in tip top shape though otherwise setting the geo up is a bit pointless. At 40,000 miles there is likely to be some significant wear on them so checking and replacing now is only pre empting what will need replacing bits sooner rather than later anyway.

OP, good advice above, check suspension components, alignment and get some PS4s tyres on as soon as possible. P Zeros are vague in comparison.

Before you spend any cash, allow for the possibility that there is nothing wrong with the car. I don’t know about the AM, but the Cayman is a very different car to drive than your BMW Ms. If not long bought you may still be transitioning!

My 997 GT3 didn't handle as well as I'd expected when I first got it. Took it to Center Gravity for a check and geo and it's transformed! If you don't fancy travelling as far, I cam also highly recommend Matt at Porschecare in Stevenage. Deffo worth getting some who knows the cars to give it a once over, as a 981 Cayman should be one of the best handling cars out there.

andygo said: Boardingnath said: If you can I’d highly recommend a booking at Centre Gravity. Do a search here and you will see nothing but positive reviews. I took my 997 there as I had similar issues at higher than average speeds and they completely changed the feeling of the car. I took my 991 there the other week and didn’t think I’d see much improvement as I was pretty happy with it but they worked their magic and improved what I didn’t think could be improved. If you can’t get to them look for a specialist near you. The key here is that it needs to be a 4 wheel alignment. I’d be surprised if this doesn’t solve all your issues. You still need to ensure all your suspension bushings etc are in tip top shape though otherwise setting the geo up is a bit pointless. At 40,000 miles there is likely to be some significant wear on them so checking and replacing now is only pre empting what will need replacing bits sooner rather than later anyway. +1 for Center Gravity, transformed a 986 for me. They will recommend replacement of any worn items that will prevent the required set up and carry out such replacement if instructed.

Those symptoms certainly sound like geo rather than worn components to me..

I would start with those front tyres. There are getting to the upper limit of what Porsche recommend, ie Max 6 years old. But I wouldn't mis match your tyres. The safest thing is to have the same tyres all round. Are your new rear P-Zeros N1 spec tyres, or are they the generic version? ( or worse news , a P-Zero for a different car altogether - I had terrible handling on my e46 M3 when the tyre place fitted Audi spec PS2s instead of Star spec for BMW. ) If they are the N1 version of P-Zero then get some fronts to match and you will have matching tyres all round. The current spec P-Zeros are much much better than previous versions so do not be put of. Yes, I would prefer Michelin PS4S tyres (not the PS4 by the way) but its not a big difference now. matching tyres would still be better. Get a proper alignment done at the same time and hopefully all will be well.

Thanks for all the replies and advice so far! By way of update, I have ordered a full set of PS4s and booked into Hendy Performance (local to me and also decent, have used them before) for an alignment. Depending on the alignment results I will work out my next steps. If it requires a lot of adjustment, then tyres and adjusting might be enough. If not, I will proceed to go to a porsche specialist and ask them to look over the suspension. Centre gravity defo a future option, but about 3 hrs drive for me. Alignmment is booked for Tuesday morning (a week today) so I will keep everyone updated! Ps. If anyone can recommend the best place to sell a pair of 365/35/20 P-Zero's (N1) which have done about 200 miles, that would be great Edited by SE24 on Tuesday 7th June 19:54

SE24 said: Thanks for all the replies and advice so far! By way of update, I have ordered a full set of PS4s and booked into Hendy Performance for an alignment. Depending on the alignment results I will work out my next steps. If it requires a lot of adjustment, then tyres and adjusting might be enough. If not, I will proceed to go to a porsche specialist and ask them to look over the suspension. Alignmenment is booked for Tuesday morning (a week today) so I will keep everyone updated! Ps. If anyone can recommend the best place to sell a pair of 365/35/20 P-Zero's (N1) which have done about 200 miles, that would be great Is that wise? going to a place which is not either a renowned Porsche Indie that offers top notch wheel alignment, or Center Gravity. I would rethink it otherwise the paperwork won't look great (should you ever come to sell).

I don't know about the Cayman, but the rear camber adjustment on a 997 needs a special tool which most alignment places are unlikely to have (a dog leg ratchet to reach an otherwise inaccessible nut on the end of the eccentric bolt).

julian987R said: Is that wise? going to a place which is not either a renowned Porsche Indie that offers top notch wheel alignment, or Center Gravity. I would rethink it otherwise the paperwork won't look great (should you ever come to sell). Lol... He needs to check the alignment is in spec not perform an engine rebuild!

testdrive said: julian987R said: Is that wise? going to a place which is not either a renowned Porsche Indie that offers top notch wheel alignment, or Center Gravity. I would rethink it otherwise the paperwork won't look great (should you ever come to sell). Lol... He needs to check the alignment is in spec not perform an engine rebuild! sure i get that, but I still think it wiser to take it to a specialist.

Fitting PS4s and a decent alignment will hopefully solve your issues. On the subject of Centre of Gravity, is it possible to get their ‘settings’ and get someone local to set the car up. I fancy their fast road set up, but it’s a long drive from Ireland. I have no issue paying for their data, just don’t fancy an overnight and a boat trip.

anonymous said: [redacted] Not unless I’m looking for the standard Porsche settings.

julian987R said: Is that wise? going to a place which is not either a renowned Porsche Indie that offers top notch wheel alignment, or Center Gravity. I would rethink it otherwise the paperwork won't look great (should you ever come to sell). It's a good point - if the alignment is miles out and they correct it, I might be all good. If it isn't it will go to a porsche specilist for suspension inspection. Even if the alignment is out and gets much better after alignment, I can still go to a specialist afterwards

P. ONeill said: Fitting PS4s and a decent alignment will hopefully solve your issues. On the subject of Centre of Gravity, is it possible to get their ‘settings’ and get someone local to set the car up. I fancy their fast road set up, but it’s a long drive from Ireland. I have no issue paying for their data, just don’t fancy an overnight and a boat trip. The settings aren’t that special, I don’t mean this in a bad way but there’s not much black magic with geo numbers. The magic is in how accurately they apply the numbers and despite sounding simple that can be very hard to replicate.

Steve H said: P. ONeill said: Fitting PS4s and a decent alignment will hopefully solve your issues. On the subject of Centre of Gravity, is it possible to get their ‘settings’ and get someone local to set the car up. I fancy their fast road set up, but it’s a long drive from Ireland. I have no issue paying for their data, just don’t fancy an overnight and a boat trip. The settings aren’t that special, I don’t mean this in a bad way but there’s not much black magic with geo numbers. The magic is in how accurately they apply the numbers and despite sounding simple that can be very hard to replicate. I get you. I’ll be over later in the year, I’ll get the car booked in to coincide with the trip.

Here is my print out from my latest geo setup. Car is so much better now. no tramlining, back seems more planted. Turn in better. I don't thing the settings are a million miles from COG... I'd recommend buying a couple of the eccentric bolts from Porsche that are used to change the rear camber as they can seize. Front camber was the max I could get by loosening the 3 top mount bolts and sliding them inwards. One side could get a bit more than the other, but had them set to lowest common denominater. I could file the bolt holes to allow more inward movement but to be honest CBA. Eccentric bolt p997733121703 t(wo req). Eccentric washer PPAF007648. Probably optional, but might as well have them.

I had PZero N0 all round when I bought mine. Horrible things. Your change to PS4S will improve things I'm sure. I've been on them 5k Miles. I have PASM, and in Normal mode it should be quite comfortable. Sport mode is too hard for everyday driving. I bought an E46 330ci many years ago with Bridgestones which would similarly want to send me off the road left or right. A switch to Contis solved the issue entirely.

DJMC said: I had PZero N0 all round when I bought mine. Horrible things. Your change to PS4S will improve things I'm sure. I've been on them 5k Miles. I have PASM, and in Normal mode it should be quite comfortable. Sport mode is too hard for everyday driving. I bought an E46 330ci many years ago with Bridgestones which would similarly want to send me off the road left or right. A switch to Contis solved the issue entirely. Yes, no idea what Porsche thought when they fitted Pirellis, they must have been given them or something. Horrible tyres, especially in cold or wet conditions. MP$'s's will transform the car.

I'll just concur with Andygo about asking your garage to check bottom arms ( coffin arms) and bushes. Mine needed replacing at a hair under 30k miles to enable a proper alignment to be carried out. It felt pretty sure footed prior but certainly a lot better with the alignment done. Ime unless the pirellis were really on there last legs thats not the problem. They are not a good as others but certainly not bad tyres and won't cause your 981 to handle badly. The one main point in 99% of 981 reviews is the stability at speed so i do think you have something going wrong somewhere.

Why is your rear toe not to spec after the alignment?

Kawasicki said: Why is your rear toe not to spec after the alignment? The rear toe 'may' be similar to COG spec and is what I asked for. Car is much better at the rear end now. Remember the standard Porsche setup is dialled in to promote understeer. I wanted to reduce that tendency.

andygo said: Kawasicki said: Why is your rear toe not to spec after the alignment? The rear toe 'may' be similar to COG spec and is what I asked for. Car is much better at the rear end now. Remember the standard Porsche setup is dialled in to promote understeer. I wanted to reduce that tendency. I drove a cayman S with standard settings and it was hilariously fun in corners. Not really understeery. I asked because not enough rear toe also reduces the linearity/precision of the car…

Kawasicki said: I drove a cayman S with standard settings and it was hilariously fun in corners. Not really understeery. I asked because not enough rear toe also reduces the linearity/precision of the car… Slow speed understeer after applying throttle can be a thing. It was in mine whilst competing in a sprint. The addition of anX73 rear roll batr form a GTS also helps apparently. I also tweaked front and rear camber as well. None of the tweaks are massive and to be fair, the Cayman understeer isn't a huge thing anyway as ever, it's only noticeable when pressing on. Edited by andygo on Friday 10th June 21:10

Andy, If you are changing your alignment again you could always try a bit of rear toe in and a smidge of toe out on the front. That's what gives you a really good turn in and no understeer. Probably considered more of a race setup than road though. Toe out at the rear can be used on a FWD to promote oversteer but for MR toe in is required imo. Too much toe out on the front though and it's terrifying over bumps I can dig out specific values if you are interested Apologies for going off topic, nothing to add to the sound advice already given to the OP. Cheers, Dunc.

dunc_sx said: Andy, If you are changing your alignment again you could always try a bit of rear toe in and a smidge of toe out on the front. That's what gives you a really good turn in and no understeer. Probably considered more of a race setup than road though. Toe out at the rear can be used on a FWD to promote oversteer but for MR toe in is required imo. Too much toe out on the front though and it's terrifying over bumps I can dig out specific values if you are interested Apologies for going off topic, nothing to add to the sound advice already given to the OP. Cheers, Dunc. I agree. A mid engined car gets sloppy when there isn’t enough rear toe.

Kawasicki said: I agree. A mid engined car gets sloppy when there isn’t enough rear toe. Thats interesting. I pinched that geo setup from one of the porsche forums where a COG setup was posted. I'll try it next time although it does seem good at the mo though. Thanks for taking an interest though.

dunc_sx said: Andy, If you are changing your alignment again you could always try a bit of rear toe in and a smidge of toe out on the front. That's what gives you a really good turn in and no understeer. Probably considered more of a race setup than road though. Toe out at the rear can be used on a FWD to promote oversteer but for MR toe in is required imo. Too much toe out on the front though and it's terrifying over bumps I can dig out specific values if you are interested Apologies for going off topic, nothing to add to the sound advice already given to the OP. Cheers, Dunc. Hi Dunc, would be interested in suggestions for specific values as I am getting the alignment done on Tues morning. The advice is I have had so far is to increase camaber to a maximum of 2.0, maximise front toe out (but stay at top end of spec) and then 0-0.5 toe in for the rear. Based on the specific alignemnts Andy posted, I was thinking to ask for similar, with a touch of front toe out as mentioned Thanks!

andygo said: Kawasicki said: I agree. A mid engined car gets sloppy when there isn’t enough rear toe. Thats interesting. I pinched that geo setup from one of the porsche forums where a COG setup was posted. I'll try it next time although it does seem good at the mo though. Thanks for taking an interest though. It is interesting. It depends what you want from the car really… and no bother… I am genuinely curious!

Kawasicki said: It is interesting. It depends what you want from the car really… and no bother… I am genuinely curious! Well my front toe is set to zero, so not a million miles out there TBH. It's all a bit subjective I think, as you may have noticed, corners vary massively in camber, surface and well, everything. It's only on a race track do you really get any repeatability unless you are a mile out on your settings. There's always lots more to come from the driver. I remember a story about Timo Makinnen, one of the original rallying flying Finns. He was testing wheel and tyre combos for Ford back in the day. Eventually he found a setup which he thought was perfect, reflected in the times. Turns out he was running 13" wheels on one side of his car and 15" rims on the other... Go figure.

SE24 said: Hi Dunc, would be interested in suggestions for specific values as I am getting the alignment done on Tues morning. The advice is I have had so far is to increase camaber to a maximum of 2.0, maximise front toe out (but stay at top end of spec) and then 0-0.5 toe in for the rear. Based on the specific alignemnts Andy posted, I was thinking to ask for similar, with a touch of front toe out as mentioned Thanks! Hi, If Andy's settings work well for him and have been recommended elsewhere then there's no harm in trying, I wouldn't mix and match to add toe out on the front and rear. I've never heard of anything like that and it may be a disaster. Toe out on the front introduces instability, so add that to the rear toe out and it's not sounding good at all. I can only comment on what I'd be comfortable with personally and that would be (similar to your original recommendation): For easy going road use: (Standard settings) For fast road use: Front toe = 0 Front camber = -1 to -1.5deg per side (ideally camber should be set to tyre temps across the tyre, or tyre wear) Rear toe = 0.1 to 0.3 deg toe in (total) Rear camber = -1.5 to -2deg Race use: More -ve camber and a touch of toe out on the front. TBH it's a bit of a mine field alignment settings since most people want different things, and drive differently, and get recommended different things by the garage aligning the car etc. etc. A quick google to verify I'm not talking too much b ks gives this good advice on toe: https://brscc.co.uk/suspension-secrets-how-to-tune... (setting toe section close to the bottom) Hope this helps, good luck in the mine field Dunc. Edited by dunc_sx on Monday 13th June 13:33

dunc_sx said: Hi, If Andy's settings work well for him and have been recommended elsewhere then there's no harm in trying, I wouldn't mix and match to add toe out on the front and rear. I've never heard of anything like that and it may be a disaster. Toe out on the front introduces instability, so add that to the rear toe out and it's not sounding good at all. I can only comment on what I'd be comfortable with personally and that would be (similar to your original recommendation): For easy going road use: (Standard settings) For fast road use: Front toe = 0 Front camber = -1 to -1.5deg per side (ideally camber should be set to tyre temps across the tyre, or tyre wear) Rear toe = 0.1 to 0.3 deg toe in (total) Rear camber = -1.5 to -2deg Race use: More -ve camber and a touch of toe out on the front. TBH it's a bit of a mine field alignment settings since most people want different things, and drive differently, and get recommended different things by the garage aligning the car etc. etc. A quick google to verify I'm not talking too much b ks gives this good advice on toe: https://brscc.co.uk/suspension-secrets-how-to-tune... (setting toe section close to the bottom) Hope this helps, good luck in the mine field Dunc. Edited by dunc_sx on Monday 13th June 13:33 Thats pretty much what I have Dunc: front camber=-1.3 Toe =- Zero Rear camber -1.3 rear toe= -0.3, 0.5 total

By way of update, I now have PS4s's on, wheels balanced, and new alignment done, with the specs below (thanks for all the replies and help so far): The good news is that the alignment was quite a way out beforehand. I have only had a short drive on the back-roads, but I can the car feels more stable and predictable now, although maybe a little "floatier" than before. I will do some proper testing over the coming days and report back Slightly annoyingly, the steering wheel is no longer perfectly centre when car is going straight, so I am taking it back tomorrow morning for them to sort that out, they are saying it requires the entire alignment to be done again, does that sound right? Edited by SE24 on Tuesday 14th June 19:01

SE24 said: By way of update… Slightly annoyingly, the steering wheel is no longer perfectly centre when car is going straight, so I am taking it back tomorrow morning for them to sort that out, they are saying it requires the entire alignment to be done again, does that sound right? Edited by SE24 on Tuesday 14th June 19:01 Yes, I think it will be a complete alignment of the front. But, it’s their mistake. They should have known that you wouldn’t accept a bodged steering wheel alignment and shouldn’t have released the car to you in that condition. I had this once. Just kept taking it back until they got it right. But mine wasn’t a specialist.

SE24 said: Slightly annoyingly, the steering wheel is no longer perfectly centre when car is going straight, so I am taking it back tomorrow morning for them to sort that out, they are saying it requires the entire alignment to be done again, does that sound right? Edited by SE24 on Tuesday 14th June 19:01 Not the entire alignment, in fact all they should need to adjust are the front track rods. Absolutely no way adjusting this can effect camber on either end, or rear toe. But they will most likely need to mount all the alignment kit again. Good to hear it's driving nicer, sounds like the comments about rear toe may have been the most germane. Liam

SE24 said: By way of update, I now have PS4s's on, wheels balanced, and new alignment done, with the specs below (thanks for all the replies and help so far): The good news is that the alignment was quite a way out beforehand. I have only had a short drive on the back-roads, but I can the car feels more stable and predictable now, although maybe a little "floatier" than before. I will do some proper testing over the coming days and report back Slightly annoyingly, the steering wheel is no longer perfectly centre when car is going straight, so I am taking it back tomorrow morning for them to sort that out, they are saying it requires the entire alignment to be done again, does that sound right? Edited by SE24 on Tuesday 14th June 19:01 If you have just had the PS4s's fitted, they may feel lighter until scrubbed in. Also, what tyre pressures are you running, they may be all over the place.

If they are good you will not need the entire alignment (front and rear) doing again to resolve this ... unless they got it badly wrong. When it goes back on the same ramp, with the same fuel etc, it should yeild the sames (or very very close figures) to what they gave you merely days ago. I suspect the steering wheel wasn't centre correctly last time they adjusted it (see my previous post). Should only be a little adjust to both track rods at the front (not just one), thats it. If they go around fiddling with everything then clearly they messed up last time. As someone said above check all tyre pressure and especially ensure side to side match front and at the rear,

Put some masking tape on the steering wheel boss and the shroud of the steering column. On level ground, level up the steering wheel where you believe the wheel is level ... then check with a torpeod level across the spokes ... then mark the tape. Tell the technician this is where the steering wheel is to sit when adjusting front toes. I say this because, your perception of level is the one that you will always judge the steering wheel in the straight ahead position. Also the technicail is often either hanging half in the car on the ramp and trying to find centre, or they knock the wheel as they get out or clamp it up. A line across two bit of tape is fool proof. Also, some aligners use a level which clamps into the inside of the thumb rest of the steering wheel. On my 718 there was more leather/padding on the left thumb rest than right, hence even when the level was level, the wheel wasn't. This was my expeience at Center Gravity who have aligned many cars for me. Took it back and Pete sorted - about an eighth of a turn on each track rod was all it took (still used thei Hunter) - but it was a lesson learnt. Remember once set true the steering wheel will rarely be level on "straight" roads due to the road crown, so typically you'll be fractionally steering right even when traveling straight. That's the result of gravity, sensative steering and road camber. Edited by churchie2856 on Tuesday 14th June 23:05

By way of update: I went back to the garage this morning to get the wheel straightened up. The first tech I speak to tried to fob me off by saying that the agressive camber will cause the wheel to not be perfectly straight. I tell him I'm not happy with it, he calls in the second tech (the guy who actually does the alignment) and they agree to re-do it I collect the car this eve and ask for the new print out of the final alignment, the first tech says that they didn't do one, but that the second tech (who did the alignment but has now gone home) was "definitely happy with it"... At this point I decide to cut my losses and move on so I just say okay and leave. Take the car out and the good news is that the steering is now perfectly centered. The bad news is that I am not sure what the alignment values actually are now. The car does feel VASTLY improved however, compared to when it went in and is giving me a lot more confidence, maybe it has a touch of understeer on initial turn in now but it is way, way better than before it went in So, my plan now is probably just to find the time to take it to center gravity when I can, and get it done properly! Don't think I'll be going back to the above garage I've used this time around, even though they have been good in the past for me Edited by SE24 on Wednesday 15th June 18:51

Chris and Pete at Center Gravity are great. Well worth the journey.

SE24 said: By way of update: (Stuff) Edited by SE24 on Wednesday 15th June 18:51 Not ideal but one would assume they just tweeked the front toe (and maybe front camber as the settings changed) with the steering wheel clamped central this time. So hopefully it's near enough the same as your initial print out Dunc Edited by dunc_sx on Wednesday 15th June 22:30

dunc_sx said: Not ideal but one would assume they just tweeked the front toe (and maybe front camber as the settings changed) with the steering wheel clamped central this time. So hopefully it's near enough the same as your initial print out Dunc Edited by dunc_sx on Wednesday 15th June 22:30 That what I am hoping, glad someone else thought similar

SE24 said: By way of update: I went back to the garage this morning to get the wheel straightened up. The first tech I speak to tried to fob me off by saying that the agressive camber will cause the wheel to not be perfectly straight. I tell him I'm not happy with it, he calls in the second tech (the guy who actually does the alignment) and they agree to re-do it I collect the car this eve and ask for the new print out of the final alignment, the first tech says that they didn't do one, but that the second tech (who did the alignment but has now gone home) was "definitely happy with it"... At this point I decide to cut my losses and move on so I just say okay and leave. Take the car out and the good news is that the steering is now perfectly centered. The bad news is that I am not sure what the alignment values actually are now. The car does feel VASTLY improved however, compared to when it went in and is giving me a lot more confidence, maybe it has a touch of understeer on initial turn in now but it is way, way better than before it went in So, my plan now is probably just to find the time to take it to center gravity when I can, and get it done properly! Don't think I'll be going back to the above garage I've used this time around, even though they have been good in the past for me Edited by SE24 on Wednesday 15th June 18:51 Why on earth do these technicians try and fob you off with such obvious nonesense as moew camber will make the wheel appear off centre?

The good news is that you are now happier with the car, I hope you are getting full enjoyment from a Porsche! I agree that you shouldn’t go back to that garage and when you can get into CG. I took my 991 down to Le Mans last week a week after going to CG. On some spirited driving down French country roads it was absolutely spectacular, I’ve never been so happy with the handling of a car.

The thread has been interesting reading. My car's geo (981 GTS) was really off from an independent garage. OPC Burgess said it was massively off and adjusted it. Not sure who was telling the truth tbh :P

SE24 said: I have taken the car out this weekend for more of a proper B road drive and whilst it is better, I am still not happy with how it handles. The best way to describe it currently is that the car is moving slightly when the steerign wheel isn't, and this requires lots of micro corrections, makign the car hard to place precisely and not giving the confidence I would like If the geo's been done I wonder if it is just that generation of EPAS which was heavily criticized ? True some owners seem to like it, but if you've come from something with a better 'feel' or / e.g. hydraulic it is quite different.

I have taken the car out this weekend for more of a proper B road drive and whilst it is better, I am still not happy with how it handles. The best way to describe it currently is that the car is moving slightly when the steering wheel isn't, and this requires lots of micro corrections, making the car hard to place precisely and not giving the confidence I would like My next steps are to get booked into a specialist, get all the suspension checked over and then go to centre gravity for alignment set up. I would go to CG straight away, but I am worried that if any suspension part are casuing the issue (by being past their best), it will be a wasted trip as no amount of alignment will correct worn components I will update back here in due course! Edited by SE24 on Sunday 19th June 13:50

Demhcs said: If the geo's been done I wonder if it is just that generation of EPAS which was heavily criticized ? True some owners seem to like it, but if you've come from something with a better 'feel' or / e.g. hydraulic it is quite different. Certainly possible, but I would like to rule out suspension past it's best before reaching that conclusion. Car is 2014 and 40k miles, so I am guessing that bushings and the like are past their best, even if they are not shot to bits

SE24 said: My next steps are to get booked into a specialist, get all the suspension checked over and then go to centre gravity for alignment set up. I would go to CG straight away, but I am worried that if any suspension part are casuing the issue (by being past their best), it will be a wasted trip as no amount of alignment will correct worn components Edited by SE24 on Sunday 19th June 13:50 CG will be able to look after these tests/repairs if you want them to, they wouldn’t try to set anything up with slack in it.

Steve H said: CG will be able to look after these tests/repairs if you want them to, they wouldn’t try to set anything up with slack in it. That is good to know, I will give them a call in the week, mention my concerns re suspension and see what they recommend

My 981 failed MOT due to worn ball joints on both Coffin of pass side. This was in 2018 when car on 40k. I changed them myself. Car uses 997 spec arms on front and 996 on rear - from the factory. If you have excessive movement it should be easy to feel if you jack car up and grip the wheel and try to wiggle. Basically thats what any COG type place will do. Push the wheel or arms while car stationary and look for movement. I'm not saying COG rubbish just that looking for movement is easy to do. I have a 996 which is fully poly bushed and my MOT guy always comments that the rear wheel is tightest of every car he has ever had his hands on.

andygo said: I changed front tuning forks and rear coffin arms with poly bushes from Spyder Performance. https://www.spyderperformance.co.uk/shop/suspensio... Curious why only forks on front and only coffin on rear. Also do Spyder supply these with the poly inserted or loose as per their pics?

Just to update, car is booked in with specialist next thurs to inspect all suspension for any worn components Having spent a bit more time in the car in the last couple of weeks, I think the issue is actually more to do with the steering than with the handling of the car per se, although the latter still does not feel brilliant The best way I can describe is that it feels like the steering wheel is making it's own micro adjustments without me doing anything, especially noticable at higher speeds, when travelling straight and when on a less smooth b-road than a smoother road like the motorway (although still noticable even on a smooth road). I then feel like it need to correct these, which is not giving much confidence in the car when pressing on. For example once speed is above 100 units, it is quite un-settling as the steering wheel is making mini jerking movements left and right I will report back here once the specialist inspection is done, but in the mean time if anyone has any thoughts, or similar experiances, I am all ears. I know this is the first gen electric steering as it does have a bad rep, but it's hard for me to believe what I'm experiencing is totally normal

OP, whereabouts are you based? I have a BGTS set up by CG and it’s sublime. Could be interesting to compare cars on the same road to see if/how they differ.

AW10 said: OP, whereabouts are you based? I have a BGTS set up by CG and it’s sublime. Could be interesting to compare cars on the same road to see if/how they differ. That would be brilliant to be honest as it would help to definitivley know if there is an issue or it's just the car. I am based in Hampshire (at the bottom), how about you?

Could the wheels be out of balance? The only time I've had what your describing but in a totally different car was down to the wheel weights. I could feel tiny little movement in the steering wheel and so was forever counter moving which became intuitive over time. This was a car with hydraulic steering. My 981 certainly doesn't do that although did feel a little floaty with the worn coffin bushes.

ATM said: Curious why only forks on front and only coffin on rear. Also do Spyder supply these with the poly inserted or loose as per their pics? I swapped the bits that were worn, rest were fine. Spyder charge £7 to put the bushes in.

andygo said: I swapped the bits that were worn, rest were fine. Spyder charge £7 to put the bushes in. Ok thanks

OP, did you ever confirm your tyre pressues? The correct pressure for the 20s on my 981 is 30psi F & R for speeds less than 250kph which is the case most days. And best set your PASM to normal, not sport, for British roads.

SE24 said: The best way I can describe is that it feels like the steering wheel is making it's own micro adjustments without me doing anything, especially noticable at higher speeds, when travelling straight and when on a less smooth b-road than a smoother road like the motorway (although still noticable even on a smooth road). I then feel like it need to correct these, which is not giving much confidence in the car when pressing on. For example once speed is above 100 units, it is quite un-settling as the steering wheel is making mini jerking movements left and right What you have described here sounds to Me like something wrong with the EPAS system. I dont see how the wheel would make micro adjustments like this over 100 units if tyre pressures were off or a bush was worn or a wheel was buckled. Unless something is seriously loose somewhere - which I presume you have checked for and there nothing is - it has to be a rack issue in my opinion.

The OP and I are trying to meet up to compare how each other's cars compares over the same roads. Might happen Saturday morning. I drove my BGTS for about 6 hours yesterday and I don't think I got any car/road induced steering wheel movement at all; it just goes where asked without drama or fuss. It's on 20s with the X73 suspension.

AW10 said: The OP and I are trying to meet up to compare how each other's cars compares over the same roads. Might happen Saturday morning. I drove my BGTS for about 6 hours yesterday and I don't think I got any car/road induced steering wheel movement at all; it just goes where asked without drama or fuss. It's on 20s with the X73 suspension. Yes My 981 just works too - spec is irrelevant. Surely all 981 should just work. This one is clearly not right.

Wasn't there a period of a few years (when the 991 and 981 were launched) when the early EPAS system wasn't actually very good? I recall journos mentioning this and also quite a few PHers (you can probably find some threads). Not sure when things improved but I wouldn't be surprised to find Porsche improved the calibration for every new model year.

Not wishing to diagnose via the internet but I found this thread interesting https://www.porscheclubgb.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=1083...

Interesting thread that, thanks. Occasionally I get ideas about removing the power steering from my 981 but I have absolutely no idea what would be involved. After some 'diagnosing' via that internet thread above it looks like the electric motor is just bolted to the rack like a starter motor is to a bell housing. So maybe it could just be removed and then the rack would have to move under its own steam, or the steam applied by the powerfully built PH'er driving it.

I'm guessing the steering effort would be v high without the assist. If you're really interested in that try disconnecting the (substantial) power cable to see what it feels like; probably easier than trying to remove the motor.

Olivera said: Wasn't there a period of a few years (when the 991 and 981 were launched) when the early EPAS system wasn't actually very good? I recall journos mentioning this and also quite a few PHers (you can probably find some threads). Not sure when things improved but I wouldn't be surprised to find Porsche improved the calibration for every new model year. The 991.1 early or late has an oddness in the steering but the 981 doesn't, it still has little feel but the parts are the same software is not. I think the journos just decided to keep quiet about it after the initial reviews of the 911.

I think a trip to Center Gravity will be well worth both your time and money. Chris and Pete know exactly how the car should drive, because they’ve driven thousands of Porsches over the years - they road test every car before and after with the customer. If they think it’s not right (EPAS, suspension components, tyres, whatever) they’ll tell you and what is need to resolve it.

Just to update, specialist inspected the suspension components, said everything was fine I have also reduced tyre pressures down to 30 from 33 and I think this helped a small amount, but the issue is certainly still there The best way I can describe it is that the steering wheel feels like it's moving on it's own, making subtle (but definitely noticeable) twitches / movements mid-corner or when going straight Specialist said the alignment looked like it was out, esp front camber, so potentially the debarcle at the last garage left the alignement out. I am going to try one more alignment locally, and then as posted above I think the best course of action is just to take it to center gravity, explain everything and see what they can do with their vast experience of these cars

You are wasting your time and money having it done locally. Get it to C of G and get it done right. I haven’t read every post but have you changed the tyres yet?

SE24 said: I think the best course of action is just to take it to center gravity, explain everything and see what they can do with their vast experience of these cars https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/geometry-setups/

Is the car just communicating with you and you don't like it?

I wonder if it’s just the earlier EPAS which was heavily criticised on 981s? Maybe there is a software upgrade now to resolve?

i think it is that Porsches are more spritely than any of the posters previous cars (BMW cruisers) and that s/he is just not used to the eccentricities (by comparison) of Porches.

I have spoken to and booked in with centre gravity this morning. They are currently booking for start of Oct (!) but clearly the lead time is driven by their reputation They gave me a lot of confidence over the phone in terms of their experience and all the things they check / what happens depending on what needs to be done, so hopefully they will be able to make some improvements I will of course report back here on how that goes, thanks for all the help so far in the thread

SE24 said: I have spoken to and booked in with centre gravity this morning. They are currently booking for start of Oct (!) but clearly the lead time is driven by their reputation They gave me a lot of confidence over the phone in terms of their experience and all the things they check / what happens depending on what needs to be done, so hopefully they will be able to make some improvements I will of course report back here on how that goes, thanks for all the help so far in the thread errrr, but what about https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/geometry-setups/

julian987R said: errrr, but what about https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/geometry-setups/ Hi Julian, RPM looked good too, although I didn't see or recieve any recommednations for them. By contrast there have been loads for CG. For the sake of another hour up the road I thought I might aswell go to what appears to be the absolute best place for my issues

SE24 said: julian987R said: errrr, but what about https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/geometry-setups/ Hi Julian, RPM looked good too, although I didn't see or recieve any recommednations for them. By contrast there have been loads for CG. For the sake of another hour up the road I might aswell go to what appears to be the absolute best place yes but a 2 month wait? seems an awfully long time to wait considering the reputation of RPM is very high - and from what i can tell RPM Geometry operations and apparatus look far more modern than CG. But hey was just an option rather than wait 2 months. Hope it works out all well.

Just to update on this thread - yesterday I went to centre gravity and they were excellent, as expected The car had too much toe out (roughly half a degree) and Pete thinks it was likley set when the fuel was close to empty, excaccerbating the issue when fuel is in the car CG said all suspension components are tight / fine (confirming what local garage said re components) On the road test and drive home, the car is miles better. I need to spend a bit more time with the car on roads that I know to form a full conclusion, but overall the difference is vast so it was well worth the trip! Will report back here with a fuller update once I have had more chance to drive the car

Glad it’s been sorted! Please post the before and after alignment sheet from CG.

AW10 said: Glad it’s been sorted! Please post the before and after alignment sheet from CG. This My back street alignment shop always insist on putting massive water containers on my lovely leather seat whenever I go there and it always annoys me. So far the seat has remained unmarked. I've asked if they can do it without this but they say no as they need to simulate the driver weight.

anonymous said: [redacted] Why?! CG’s settings are nothing secret; they’ll be within factory spec. They’ll just be done carefully and methodically with L/R symmetry, resettling the suspension after every adjustment and road testing the car when done to confirm the result.

anonymous said: [redacted] You cant have secrets on the internet. CG business model isn't secret settings. Its their care and attention to detail. I've seen lot of other CG settings posted but personally I'm not too bothered about seeing them. It's not like we will rush out and reset our cars to match those posted.

We like discussing cars here and surely discussing one's geo is a genuine subject for discussion so I dont see the harm in it but dont want to put any undue pressure on the OP who may feel it is secret. I think its safe to say we are all pleased it was a simple fix and hopefully the OP can just enjoy his car now. Gratuitous pic of mine ....

luverly colour that! truth be told I'm most interested in the "before" settings to try to understand what led the OP to feel the car was twitchy

AW10 said: luverly colour that! truth be told I'm most interested in the "before" settings to try to understand what led the OP to feel the car was twitchy OP said it has too much toe out. I think there should be no toe out and instead toe in. Some people like to run as near to zero toe as poss but in reality you need to err on the side of caution and toe in a little because toe out is never good.

Quite a bit of negative camber before and after. I would have thought these have positive camber on the front OOTB?

Thats pretty much the same as my 981 GTS setup after RPM Technik set my car up for a trip to Spa. I have a tiny bit more camber, but the toe stiings are nearly identical. I think the slight nervousnesss you are getting is down to the fact you are driving a properly set up Porsche and, with greatest respect, not a heavy mass market saloon car. Enjoy the drive, if there was any worn components, CofG would have clocked it and told you!

Hi Everyone, Just to report back with final findings and geo settings. As mentioned car is vastly improved although there is still a slight hint of un-predictability. It's very small and certainly not enough to ruin the experience of the car (which is where I was when this all started) CG said this might be down to the tyres a) being almost new with lots of tread (PS4S) and b) being un-evenly worn due to previous geo (approaching half a degree of toe out) and would likely improve over time as the tyres wear more evenly with the new geo Overall my experience with Center Gravity was honestly excellent and I would happily be going back there in the future I also wanted to post my before and after geo settings as I know lots of people were keen to see them Before: After: Finally, a big thank you from me to everyone who posted and helped in this thread and through private mesages - I think that community and collective love of cars is something that makes these forums great and in the end it's helped me get to a good result with this issue Edited by SE24 on Tuesday 10th January 12:57

andygo said: I think the slight nervousnesss you are getting is down to the fact you are driving a properly set up Porsche and, with greatest respect, not a heavy mass market saloon car. Exactly what I was thinking. -ve camber and very little toe. Will be pointy.

ATM said: Exactly what I was thinking. -ve camber and very little toe. Will be pointy. And great to drive...

ATM said: Quite a bit of negative camber before and after. I would have thought these have positive camber on the front OOTB? happy to be proven wrong but is there any car on the road today running radial tyres calling for positive camber? Porsche’s minimum negative camber is 15 minutes front and 80 minutes at the back?

my CG "after" numbers on an X73 BGTS

There was nothing even in your original geo that scares me, ok it's off but the new ps4s on the other hand can and do feel strange, I recall mine feeling like it was light at the back for quite some miles on my first set. Keep driving it!

The OP cited the car being unsettled at speed and twitchy. Given the original figures reveal the toe out (-ve toe) on the front, I think this was the cause above all else. I think only a minority of drivers would enjoy a road car with the original geo on British roads, 99% of the time. CG know their craft. Hence why I and so many PHers use them for our cars (not just Porsches) and continue to recommend. Glad the OP got it sorted. Enjoy.

I've got 2 x 996 and both of these arrived to me with toe out. So maybe its quite common witj used Porsches. The first was a bit liary at speed with a lot more negative camber than the second. The beat way I explain it to my friends who are not car nerds like me is this. At speed - but this just made it more noticeable - if you took your hands off the wheel then the car would dart around - so change course or direction. If you've never experienced it then it's perhaps hard to imagine. So with your hands on the wheel and driving normally you effectively compensate for this constantly by readjusting the course or correcting it. Edited to add - I think the science behind this is that as the weight at the front shifts from one side to the other or the camber or undulations of the road surface change then each front wheel can sometimes have more grip than the other and therefore the car will follow that lead tyre's direction. Toe out is where the front wheels are pointing away from each other or out. So as this grip shifts from one side to the next the car will turn in that direction and it will never want to go straight. Edited by ATM on Wednesday 11th January 07:23 Edited by ATM on Wednesday 11th January 07:24

churchie2856 said: The OP cited the car being unsettled at speed and twitchy. Given the original figures reveal the toe out (-ve toe) on the front, I think this was the cause above all else. I think only a minority of drivers would enjoy a road car with the original geo on British roads, 99% of the time. CG know their craft. Hence why I and so many PHers use them for our cars (not just Porsches) and continue to recommend. Glad the OP got it sorted. Enjoy. Agreed - the car was running a lot of toe out - it would be nervous on anything other than a billiard table. And eating front tyres at a rate of knots.

Looking back at the beginning of this thread we can see everyone basically saying alignment from day 1. Group pat on the back lads.