996 V 993

Hey guys - 996FLT6 strayed onto the 993 forum and issued an enduro challenge, his 996 against a 993 - he agreed to arrange track and time. This challenge has been accepted but so far no response from 996FLT6! Come on guys, perhaps someone else can pick this one up? Location seems to be centred around So Cal. Check the thread. Its good to talk. PJC

Hi PJC, Good initiative with the posting here. Let's hope someone videos the race! Cheers, David <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

That guy is an idiot. He's been spamming CFG's board and trash talking about this board. He's been name calling 993 owners and whining about them being elitist, etc. blah blah. Everyone on that board made complete fun of him and laughed him away. He even sent me an anonymous email (like I didn't know who it was) insulting me and my wife. He's a total moron. Just ignore him. Also, I'd be willing to bet lots of $$$ that he cannot drive worth a #$&* anyway, so what would it prove.

This should be interesting. I went over to the 993 board just to read the posts. Some are hilarious. Some are infuriating to a degree. I think I'll post down there just to see the reaction, heeh-heeeeeee . I think, nay, I'm sure the 996 will win hands down given equivalent drivers.

I don't know what the deal is with all the negativity towards 993s. I think it's great to race 'em against eachother, but name calling etc. isn't cool. I like all Porsches.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DJ 996: <strong>I don't know what the deal is with all the negativity towards 993s. I think it's great to race 'em against eachother, but name calling etc. isn't cool. I like all Porsches.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Doug, I like Porsches too. In fact, I like the 993. But go over to the 993 board, and you'll see why it can get infuriating. i don't know who started it, but some 993 guys are as bad as any I've seen when it comes to name calling, bad mouthing, etc. Someone even suggested that since there were other water cooled Porsches, the proper derogatory term should be rear-engined water pumpers. It's hilarious what the car version of racial bigotry can stoop down to. It stands to reason that, since there are more old 993's than there are old 996's, there would be more race-ready 993 cars and 993 teams. So I just asked the question at the 993 board on whether the high end race teams use a 996 or a 993based car. They use the better car, of course . I think I better not post anymore on the topic, otherwise John D. may boot me off.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Palting: <strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ 996: [qb]It stands to reason that, since there are more old 993's than there are old 996's, there would be more race-ready 993 cars and 993 teams. So I just asked the question at the 993 board on whether the high end race teams use a 996 or a 993based car. They use the better car, of course . </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Way to be Palting... nothing like throwing some more fuel on the fire. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> It is a circular argument... the chassis is 996 based, but the engine is based on that from the GT1 which was based on a version of the 964.

I think the 993 guys have been quite accomidating of some outsider posts that have been intended to do NOTHING more than cause flame wars...

I think it is obvious that we all share a passion for Porsches and specifically, the 911. Water cooled, air cooled, etc, what does it all mean? It means we all share the passion for the best engineered car of its time. Personally, I do not think it is fair to compare an 8 year old car (95 993) to a new car (03 996). From a performance aspect, Porsche would not allow a decrease in performance. From an interior aspect, drivers of today are demanding more, more information, more comfort, more room, etc. From an external aspect, it is all in the eyes of the beholder.

Well said adscab911 <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Maybe an owner or 2 that currently owns a 993 and 996 (I mean at the same time) would like to comment on his/her impressions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Scott in Houston- I'm not that person if your talking about me. I never sent out any mail to you at all. Regards. Mike

Oh... Ok. Sorry. There was someone named DCFLAT6 or something on Funcars that I thought was the same person who issued this challenge. This person was on a rant about 993 owners being elitist, etc. I am not sure exactly who it is. Sorry for the false accusation. I was getting folks confused.

There is a "DCFLAT6" in funcarsonline.com (CFG's) who was acting like an idiot about 993's. Is that the one Scott? EDIT: You beat me to it Scott

Yep, that's him, Carlos. No relationship to our 996flat6-Mike. When I first saw that thread, I knew he was something else. My biggest mistake was to go over to 993 board to see what it was all about. I guess he brought out the worst in the 993 people. I guess if you offend people enough, they will respond in kind. Thought I'd make some kind of a joke out of the whole thing, but I guess some people are still stinging.

I think for the most part, everyone is pretty cool about this. I have read the comments over at the air-head thread and things seem to be cooling a bit. I can't wait to read about the enduro event. No matter who wins, I'm sure alot of hand shaking will unsue. After all, we all love Porsches and (hopefully) admire all the various models. I am sure Mike regrets overreacting to the "recreational use" comment. One thing is certain, if both cars finish then all are winners since then it came down to driver skill which is not what the spirit of the discussion was about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by DonW..from Cape Cod...: <strong>Maybe an owner or 2 that currently owns a 993 and 996 (I mean at the same time) would like to comment on his/her impressions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I used to get the same questions when I had my 964 and 993. I am sure you guys will get yours when you buy the new 997 to go along with your 996.

The 997 is junk. The 996 is the last of the *real* Porsches.

Yo Mike, FWIW I think your idea of an enduro is a great idea. Personally i don't really care who wins, i just want to see a great grudge match. I tend to take all this 993 vs 996 with a grain of salt, and tongue firmly in cheek. Thunderhill... Be there, or be square. :-) Cheers, Chris ps I'll even crew for you if you need help...

Ha ha- Cmoss if I don't find anyone you are it : ). Open track times looks like Friday availablity doesn't look like sat/sun have any open test days. Two cars will run $1200 plus approx $700 for ambulance and $240 for 3 flaggers. Man I'm having butterflies already. Regards. Mike

I did not own my 993 and 996 at the same time, however it was only 5 months apart. The 996 is faster IMHO. I drove my 993 at Mid-Ohio last year and consistently ran 1:56 and 1:57 It was my 3rd or 4th DE at Mid Ohio in that car. The 993 was on Pirelli street tires but had H&R sport springs. Other than the springs, it was stock. In April of this year, I ran my 99 996 at Mid-Ohio and ran consistent 1:50's with the occasional 1:48. The 996 was bone stock (regular non-sport suspension) but had track tires on it. It was my first real DE in the car since my trip to VIR earlier in April was marred by a faulty MAF. The biggest difference I felt was in the ability to carry more speed into and though the corners. In comparison to the 993, my speed at the end of the straight was only about 5-6 mph higher, but I felt like I was a touch faster through every corner. It just added up. For example, one of the guys I used to spar with in my 993 started immediately behind me in the last session. By the end, he was 53 seconds behind. What does all this mean? It means I like Hoosiers better than street tires. But I also liked the flatter cornering with the H&R's compared to the stock 996 springs/shocks (with 77K miles on them BTW). That being said, I was this close to buying a 993 when I found my 2002 996. I love them both.

Having one of each I guess I could speak up but I would start by saying this whole 993 vs 996 thing is just plain stupid. The grudge race is even dumber. My cars. I have a black 98 993 cab with 35k miles and black 99 996 coupe with 32k miles. The 996 has become a track only car that I intend to club race this summer but I have a lot of street time in it. My 2 cents worth: Interior: The 993 obviously has the more traditional Porsche interior which I love but I recognize that you can't build a 70's interior forever. It had to be updated at some point. The "cheap plastic" interior in my 996 has actually held up every bit as good as the 993. FWIW the 993 has some cheap plastic of its own. The door handles and the boot release are both less than perfect. Advantage: I'd say a tie. Similar quality so it's a matter of taste. Fit and finish: I really don't see any difference between the two. Both are very well built. You hear a lot about the way doors close on the 993 and it's true that it makes a great metalic sounding clunk but I'm not sure that translates into a higher quality. Just different. Engine: Water cooling isa no brainer for me. The race cars have had it for years and it's clearly superior to oil cooling. Having said that the rest of the 993 engine is a clear winner in my book. The 996 should have been based on the 964/993 block. Engine sound: It a matter of taste but I much prefer the 996. Of course I have straight pipes on my 996 vs the motor sports sound package on the 993 so it might not be a fair comparison. Handling: This is where this whole sports car vs GT car thing comes up. What a crock. The reality is that every model of Porsche was a little easier to drive, a little faster and a little more comfortable than the one before it. The 996 is just that. Having said that, I love the way the 993 drives and it would be my clear choice for a spirited Sunday drive. The 996 on the other hand would be my clear choice for everyday or for track days. Both are sports cars although the cup holders in the new 996s turn my stomach. Quality: Both are very good and both have problems. The 996 has the main seal issue on the 99 and several other smaller problems. The 993 has the steering rack issue and wiring harness problems on the 95-96. Porsche has done a great job a standing behind both cars. Resale: They both suck! The 996 sucks a little more. The "Race": What a joke. Put two identical drivers in identically prepared cars and the 996 will win although I'm not sure either will last through a 6 hour enduro. Put a slightly better driver in the 993 and it will destroy the 996. Put a slightly better suspension in the 993 and it will destroy the 996. I don't know how the 993 is prepared but it's my understanding that the driver is good. From the listing on his posts the 996 is not well prepared for the track and it's my understanding that the driver is not experienced. If I were the 996 guy I would eat some crow and save my car. Just my opinion. I say, get one one of each.

While you make some very valid points, I don't think the grudge match is "dumb" idea. I DO think it's dumb to expect it to settle any "questions." On the other hand--from an observers standpoint--just to be out there seeing my favorite cars... That's way cool. Add in some truly decent people, friendly competition, and we get a grassroots P-car happening. Nothing dumb there...

JimB, Thanks for the great insight. I have moved from a 964 cab to what is to me, the ultimate Porsche, the 993 C4S. The look of the 996 has not grown on me yet but I did appreciate the very objective views on performance, handling, quality, etc. I do agree with your assessment of drivers skill being very important. I agree with cmoss that there is nothing dumb here. This kind of stuff happens all the time at track events.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by cmoss: <strong>While you make some very valid points, I don't think the grudge match is "dumb" idea. I DO think it's dumb to expect it to settle any "questions." On the other hand--from an observers standpoint--just to be out there seeing my favorite cars... That's way cool. Add in some truly decent people, friendly competition, and we get a grassroots P-car happening. Nothing dumb there...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">It sure doesn't seem like this on the 993 board, where all I see is 996 bashing and stupid sidebets on "i bet he won't show, that *****", not to mention all the useless personal attacks. It seems like the 996 guys are being level-headed and the 993 guys are pretending like they've already won the battle

Mike, aren't you concerned about what 6 hours of racing will do to a road car? I'm not meaning a 996 in particular, put any road car in a 6 hour enduro race and it will take a hell of a beating - an awful lot of work is done to prepare a car for that kind of event, resemblance to a road car is mostly cosmetic. Maybe you know all this already and are preparing the car accordingly, but if this is the car you regularly use on the road you might want to think very seriously about what state it will be in by the end of the event (or more realistically what state it will already be in by the time you realise what you are doing to it and don't want to continue, or something fails).

They are exactly like two beautiful ladies, different character, different style but same attraction, wish i have two

I agree with JimB about this 993/996 challenge (JimB also gave a very good 993/996 comparison). I went to that thread early on and a ricer fight broke out. After the challenge was issued they admitted that it was not really about 993 vs. 996, but an attempt to beat up on 996 without being charged with assault and battery. To me it's meaningless and immature, and I'm somewhat disappointed that 993 swallowed the bait. But to some it's apparently meaningful and proper for somebody to get dueling scars while others have great fun. I seriously doubt that it will ever come off, because that kind of talk is a lot easier (and a lot cheaper) than actually going through with it. It's already been demonstrated that a stock 996 is faster on track than a stock 993, so that's not what it's about.

Very thoughtful post JimB...enjoyed your opinion. Only comment I have is aesthetic...and that is the traditional "view" you get while driving. The 964 was the last car that looked like a Porsche thru the windshield, ie the high fenders. The 993 was muted and quite frankly the 996 view looks a bit "ricey" to me. That aside, why not compare the manufacturer's specs on a 98 993 C4S Coupe and an 03 996 C4S Coupe (last year of each)....all ext/int dimensions, wheelbase, all performance stats etc.etc. Then we all can chew on everything from hp/tq to legroom/headroom; drag co-efficient; cupholders...whatever. Here's a great comparison: which model has the fewest TSBs?! Maybe some car mag has already done that somewhere... So, the 997 is junk already which makes both the 996 and the 993 on equal footing. Each lasted approx. 5 years and both will be obsolete in a few months. I wonder how many of each were produced???

Since so many other people are tying to put their spin on my acceptance of this, let me clarify a few things. 996FLT6 has repeatedly wandered the boards trying to stir up hostilities between 996 and 993 owners. This last one was an offensive response to an innocnet joke that someone made. Now he issued a stupid cahllenge that will prove absolutely nothing about the merits of the two cars, but is a very interesting concept, none the less. For the record, I know which car is faster - it is quite clear that the 996 is the faster, better performing car - in similar states with the same driver. Some 993 drivers prefer the 993 because it is more raw than the 996. So what. A '72 911 is far more raw than a 993. For that matter, a Bug-Eyed Sprite is far more raw than any of the above and there are people who prefer that to overall performance. 996FLT6 was hostile and obnoxious, issues a stupid challenge and I took him up on HIS challenge. This is not about me proving whether the 993 is better, or whether I am faster than 996FLT6 (I am not all that fast and I know it. I have that proven to me all the time.) Street 996 with nice paint against any NA 993. This will be expensive, but far far more expensive for the 996. If you wonder just how expensive, go catch up on the post and you can see my estimates for the 993 team. All 996FLT6 has to do is admit he over-reacted to a post and issued a challenge that makes no sense, then he can back away (and hopefully find a way to control his future posts). If he can't admit that, then we can do the event.

There is no denying the performance advantage enjoyed by a comparable 996 to a comparable 993. More HP, more torque, better suspension, interior, etc, but as Fadz said so well, they are exactly like two beautiful ladies. The 993 is like Pamela Anderson, a little older and less in the limelight than in years past, still a great looker with the total package. The 996 is like Halle Berry. At the top of her game, in the middle of the spotlight and a great looker with the total package.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by adscab911: <strong>The 993 is like Pamela Anderson, a little older and less in the limelight than in years past, still a great looker with the total package. The 996 is like Halle Berry. At the top of her game, in the middle of the spotlight and a great looker with the total package.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Of course, a 993TT or 993 C4S/C2S would probably be more like Jennifer Lopez. Which car is Heidi Klum? I want that car!

The 996 is to my eye a good looker and a very nice car to drive. Beauty is only skin deep though, and a one night tumble in the sack doesn't make her worth introducing to mom and dad. I still find it troubling that the 996 has had so many premature engine failures and as far as I can tell the gearbox has no servicable internal parts. I also think it is very telling that the Turbo, GT2 and GT3 all have their engine and gearbox based on 964/993's components and not the standard 996 stuff....I wonder why

Well if you read the posts at the 993 board yes I issued the challenge to one person eric993tt and yes I made a dumb statement but he(eric 993tt) did as well so Radical Racer took the challenge. Read all the post on 993 Rennlist and yes I only respond to one's who ridicule/make fun of the 996-check them all. It's a direct response to those after something is said not me instigating or baiting someone. I'm sorry it turned ugly but it's a real turnoff hearing this stuff about the 996 and its frequent. Regards. Mike

Well it seems we've all learned something. I've purposely stayed out of the fray of this huge debate and challenge. I made a simple light hearted joke which was never meant to offend anyone. Let's remember the original thread was about a funny statement about Porsche tools. It was a joke to begin with. I offered an apology to 996 owners who took offense to it anyway. Mike (996FLT6), did I go around other boards stirring up trouble? NO. Did I ever say I could beat anyone racing anything? NO. Have I ever made an offensive post directed to you or anyone for that matter? NO. However, you on the other hand, have made unwarranted disparaging, offensive and provocative remarks towards me and offered this silly 12 hr enduro challenge. You don't know me at all. Your posts touched nerves with lots of people and Radical Racer called you on your challenge. Once you realized what is really involved, you've been backpedaling ever since. Radical Racer has put you in a lose-lose situation. If you race, you'll lose and your car is dust. If you don't, you look bad. What does this all prove? You should use your brain before you go and shoot off your mouth (or in this case, type on the computer). It takes a big man to admit he made a mistake. This also proves Radical Racer and others are willing to put their $$$ behind their words. Well done guys. I don't think the race would've proven anything anyway. I've said my peace, let's turn to a more positive note and hope this chapter is closed. Maybe we can all have a beer and laugh about it someday. Regards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 996FLT6: <strong>Well if you read the posts at the 993 board yes I issued the challenge to one person eric993tt and yes I made a dumb statement but he(eric 993tt) did as well so Radical Racer took the challenge. Read all the post on 993 Rennlist and yes I only respond to one's who ridicule/make fun of the 996-check them all. It's a direct response to those after something is said not me instigating or baiting someone. I'm sorry it turned ugly but it's a real turnoff hearing this stuff about the 996 and its frequent. Regards. Mike</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yep, boys, think it is time to let this one rest....Mike with the exception of the a$$hole post....you have not really been that bad...I think the guy that really got a lot of us pissed off was DCFlat6.....

Were are all Porsche enthusuast again - isn't it great! There were certain people who pissed me off when I read there posts as well and then I had to remember an old college roommate I had... He was never trully happy (and I'm being serious) unless me was in the middle of an agruement. It could be Mac vs. PC, Canon vs. Nikon, Bose vs. Infinity... it didn't matter what the discussion was as about as long as he was able to stir something up with someone... I enjoy reading and sometimes posting in several different Rennlist forums and I've taken away this: I think each group has every right to be prideful and protective of the model they chose - after all that is the vehicle they decided to buy so that group will naturally concider that model to be the "best" - at least for them. Anyone who drifts to other forums should be aware of this basic human condition and not fly off the handle each time a group makes an "inside" joke or whatever...

Hi Everyone, I'm going to put a Chevy V8 into my Cab and I'll challenge anyone, 993 or 996, to a 12 hour enduro! [For the humor impaired, that was a joke...]

Joe - Before I take sides and place my bet, I'd want to know if you converted the Chevy to air/oil cooling or not!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Joe2000C4Cab: <strong>Hi Everyone, I'm going to put a Chevy V8 into my Cab and I'll challenge anyone, 993 or 996, to a 12 hour enduro! [For the humor impaired, that was a joke...]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">OK Joe, I am up for that. I have my car almost ready. It just needs a wheel and some racers tape, a little reinforcing for V8 racing (I-Beam, concrete bondo job) and I am good to go. <a href="http://www.wreckedexotics.com/993/993_061602_03.shtml" target="_blank">Photo of my enduro car</a> [For the humor impaired, that was also a joke...]

The bottom-line for me is that both cars (993 & 996) have their virtues and shortcomings. I own a '01 996 by choice. I may purchase a dedicated track car and go racing next year and that car may be a 911/964/993 or a new 996 Cup car - all depending on my allowable budget at the time. I have met only one (1) 993 owner who really knows, has owned a 996 or even driven or raced a 996. All others just talk as if they were truly knowledgeable or experienced. It's just BS. Personally, I don't talk about something I know nothing about. The problem in deciding which car is better is compounded by the difficulty in really comparing apples to apples, i.e. how the cars are equipped, setup, weight, horsepower, etc. and who's driving. I've yet to race, but I've met many "race" 993 owners who based on the trash they talk should be able to run away from a 996, but when comparing laptimes it doesn't work out that way. I'm a huge Lance Armstrong fan and as Lance says "It's not about the bike" - holds true to cars too.

GonzoP1, I don't believe it was ever a problem on which car was "better". Us 993 owners also ackowledge that the 996 is lighter, has more hp and torque, has a more advanced stock suspension, runs faster lap times and is easier to drive fast. Again, stock to stock. The problem was, and let me say that again, WAS, one 996 owner and one 993 owner who accepted a challenge. Driver vs. driver. You may indeed try to restart the flame war but I'm betting you won't get it from 993 owners.

Maybe we should put this thing to sleep. Everyone has apologized and there really is not any point in continuing this thread. Let us all agree to agree or disagree and move on to something else. IMHO

It's over, the war is over! Lets all move on.