991.1 Carrera - still unloved? - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I had been looking at 997.2 carreras, but the realisation that the 991 shape would be a much better option with small kids has now got me looking at them. However, most reviews seem to be of the consenus that what came before with the 997.2, and after in the 991.2, where better cars. Most of that criticism is based on the steering, but as someone who also wants a manual gearbox, the first generation of the 7 speed box doesn't seem to get a great write up either. The steering is of particular concern, as having had a 987 Cayman and Lotus in the past, I know what good steering is. I'd like to understand from those with personal experience, are the steering and manual box true weaknesses, or are they just poor in comparison to what came before and after? How does that electronic power steering compare with a modern BMW for example? Can anything be done with software/hardware/suspension to improve that steering? I watched a review from Henry Catchpole where he said the steering on the 4 wheel drive models was better, have others found that in the real world? It does seem that there are some benefits to me of a 991.1, as in addition to the extra rear space and isofix, they sound better as standard (or with PSE) than the 997.2. A manual 991.2 T appeals, which would have better steering and gearbox but it's significant budget creep that I'd prefer to avoid.

I would never rely on someone else's opinion when it comes to cars. Find one you're interested in and test drive it, after all you're the one who'll have to live with it...and it's your money buying it. Everyone has an opinion and as the saying goes, one man's meat...

Hi. I have a manual 991.1 C2S Cab. A 997 was too small in the back and the tech not suitable for a daily. A 991.2 manual was not available for my budget. I traded from a M340i so can answer the steering question. It is a much better steer than a modern BMW. Also I didn’t want a turbocharged engine after the BMW so looked at this generation as the last NA, manual 2wd 911 that I could afford. I have the sports exhaust to maximise the sound to maximise that NA engine note. Try it yourself I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

I did a lot of miles in a 997.2 and then a 991.1. The 991.1 was a big step forward in infotainment and very noticeably more refined. The interior always annoyed me as the 991 era cars were full of blanking switches on the transmission tunnel which was poor for a 6-figure car. Steering wise, the 997 was better. You'd heard it a million times, but it just was. That isn't to say that the 991.1 is bad as it isn't, but it replaced a product where steering was absolutely excellent with one that was sort of good enough. On the steering, I have seen on other forums that people have been able to change the steering maps on various Porsches so I wouldn't be surprised if it can be improved by this method. I forget the exact model, but I saw one video of someone put the GT3 steering map on their car after discovering the steering rack was the same hardware. They were very pleased with the results. The only 2 (relatively) new BMWs I have driven lately have been a 2016 435D and a 2019 M2 Comp. VS the 435D, the 991 steering is miles better, though I'd argue the steering in that era of 4 series was pretty poor. VS the M2 I'd say the systems aren't a million miles from each other. I'd probably say I prefer the weighting of the M2 steering, but it has 3 modes you can pick from with the middle, sport mode, feeling horrible IMO - comfort and Sport Plus, or whatever BMW call it, both fine. It's all subjective, but I took the 997.2 out for fun more often and as a driver’s car I much preferred it. The 991.1 was not bad, but it didn't excite as much. And like for like models, the 997.2 felt faster. The 991.1 Carerra S feels a bit sluggish until right up the revs whereas the 997.2 felt quicker, more of the time. It was very noticeable off roundabouts in 2nd. The 997 just wanted to go and the 991 felt like it needed a while to think about it before it really wanted to make progress. Not sure if any of that helps, but just a few thoughts after many thousands of miles in each. If I were to buy a 911 tomorrow, I'd buy a 997.2. It gave me more of what I want in a driver’s car, and I'm not that bothered about the better refinement of the 991. To add, the cars I was driving were PDK so can't comment on the manual.

Is the back of the 997 that much smaller then ? Doesn't better steering trump small kids comfort

I found the 991.1 carrera steering very ‘glassy’. There’s no feel but it is accurate. The 991.2 is improved but not brilliant either. The 997 steering feels way way better. The GT products have great steering feel. (Though IMHO the latest gen GT4 steering doesn’t have as much feel as the 981 gen GT4 , for some bizarre reason.) You need to try and decide if it’s for you as everyone is different. Lovely cars aside from that. I’m still tempted to get one as a daily.

PaulD86 said: Not sure if any of that helps, but just a few thoughts after many thousands of miles in each. If I were to buy a 911 tomorrow, I'd buy a 997.2. It gave me more of what I want in a driver’s car, and I'm not that bothered about the better refinement of the 991. Buy the 997.2. After that, 911s lost their soul.

Thanks all, plenty of love for the 997.2 it seems but less for the 991.1. I do need to try one for myself. Fnumber1user said: I would never rely on someone else's opinion when it comes to cars. Find one you're interested in and test drive it, after all you're the one who'll have to live with it...and it's your money buying it. Everyone has an opinion and as the saying goes, one man's meat... Agree I need to decide for myself, but always good to under others with experience that extends beyond a brief test drive. speedster986 said: Hi. I have a manual 991.1 C2S Cab. A 997 was too small in the back and the tech not suitable for a daily. A 991.2 manual was not available for my budget. I traded from a M340i so can answer the steering question. It is a much better steer than a modern BMW. Also I didn’t want a turbocharged engine after the BMW so looked at this generation as the last NA, manual 2wd 911 that I could afford. I have the sports exhaust to maximise the sound to maximise that NA engine note. Try it yourself I think you will be pleasantly surprised. Thanks, sounds like you are in a similar position to me as I would be coming from a m340i, and good to know the steering feel would be better than that although not a surprise to be honest. Do you find the rear seats useable? AinsleyB said: Is the back of the 997 that much smaller then ? Doesn't better steering trump small kids comfort Steering feel definitely trumps kids comfort but probably not their safety. Its the addition of isofix that appeals as I'm not sure of the abilty of belt fastened child seats to stop the seat hitting the front seat in an impact given how restricted space is.

PaulD86 said: I did a lot of miles in a 997.2 and then a 991.1. The 991.1 was a big step forward in infotainment and very noticeably more refined. The interior always annoyed me as the 991 era cars were full of blanking switches on the transmission tunnel which was poor for a 6-figure car. Steering wise, the 997 was better. You'd heard it a million times, but it just was. That isn't to say that the 991.1 is bad as it isn't, but it replaced a product where steering was absolutely excellent with one that was sort of good enough. On the steering, I have seen on other forums that people have been able to change the steering maps on various Porsches so I wouldn't be surprised if it can be improved by this method. I forget the exact model, but I saw one video of someone put the GT3 steering map on their car after discovering the steering rack was the same hardware. They were very pleased with the results. The only 2 (relatively) new BMWs I have driven lately have been a 2016 435D and a 2019 M2 Comp. VS the 435D, the 991 steering is miles better, though I'd argue the steering in that era of 4 series was pretty poor. VS the M2 I'd say the systems aren't a million miles from each other. I'd probably say I prefer the weighting of the M2 steering, but it has 3 modes you can pick from with the middle, sport mode, feeling horrible IMO - comfort and Sport Plus, or whatever BMW call it, both fine. It's all subjective, but I took the 997.2 out for fun more often and as a driver’s car I much preferred it. The 991.1 was not bad, but it didn't excite as much. And like for like models, the 997.2 felt faster. The 991.1 Carerra S feels a bit sluggish until right up the revs whereas the 997.2 felt quicker, more of the time. It was very noticeable off roundabouts in 2nd. The 997 just wanted to go and the 991 felt like it needed a while to think about it before it really wanted to make progress. Not sure if any of that helps, but just a few thoughts after many thousands of miles in each. If I were to buy a 911 tomorrow, I'd buy a 997.2. It gave me more of what I want in a driver’s car, and I'm not that bothered about the better refinement of the 991. To add, the cars I was driving were PDK so can't comment on the manual. Thanks, very useful comments. Without small kids it would be a 997.2 no question, but I need to consider them and the fact i'll be able to use the car more frequently if they can travel in the back on occasion. I will look into software updates if that is a thing. But I'm surprised there isn't more info on that if it has worked successfully, as presumably that would be a update that many would be keen to have, yet I can find very little on it. Also a useful comparison against the M2, which is possibly the only other car I would consider. It just doesn't have the appeal of a 911 though.

If it’s your first 911 then it’ll be great. You don’t need to worry about the marginal differences in the feel of this or that. The 991 also looks great, which is always a bonus. When I was looking for a 997.2, the jump in price to a new 991.2 wasn’t that much, so I went for it. In contrast, the jump from a 991.1 to a new 992 is now massive, so I think it shows the great value that you can get. Enjoy it.

..one more thought. In terms of a manual gearbox, it’s always better to have a traditional handbrake. This is the main thing that I prefer about the 997.

JackReacher said: Thanks, very useful comments. Without small kids it would be a 997.2 no question, I had small kids in the back of my 997.2 and 991. They commented how safe the 997 felt, I think because of the way the seats "gripped" them and the centre tunnel. In actual fact, I had my 997.2 GTS for seven years, after two years of 991.1 ownership. The 991 bored me stupid and, by the time I sold, it I actively disliked it.

You know good steering when you experience it. But if you are faced with dealing with one of the numerous electric systems offered almost everywhere now, be prepared for disappointment. The upside is, you soon get used to it and forget. I’ve got another 911 shortlisted. 997.2 are really the modern 993. Values beginning to reflect that as well. That said, 991.2 are getting close now.

I do find the rear seats usable for short journeys. My children are 11 and 14 and both taller than average. Both can sit in the back when the need arises which I think would be very difficult in a 997. Also I think the 991 is a very ‘clean’ design I certainly prefer the rear to the fussier 992.

JackReacher said: I will look into software updates if that is a thing. But I'm surprised there isn't more info on that if it has worked successfully, as presumably that would be a update that many would be keen to have, yet I can find very little on it. https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1281913-modifying-991-1-steering-software-5.html This thread has all the info, but you'll need to read a fair way through it. Does seems a bit of effort, but could be worth it.

Grantstown said: ..one more thought. In terms of a manual gearbox, it’s always better to have a traditional handbrake. This is the main thing that I prefer about the 997. I never use the handbrake on any of my cars?

JackReacher said: Steering feel definitely trumps kids comfort but probably not their safety. If safety is such a concern then bear in mind that no 911s have ever submitted for crash testing, so you have no idea how they will hold up in a crash scenario. It is probably a factor in 911s being lighter than virtually all the competition. That is a bigger factor than whether there are isofix points for the kids' seats. Obviously it's for each parent to decide what their risk appetite is for their kids. Personally I don't have a problem with non-isofix child seats, nor with kids being in vehicles which don't have the highest safety ratings (older cars, basically). If my kids were in a car 1-2 hours every day I might feel differently.

IMHO Porsche got it wrong with the engines and their model changes twice in a row. The 997 should have had the DFI engine from the 997.1 on and the 991 should have had the 3.0 turbo engine from the beginning (991.1). The 991 is a beautiful looking car, absolutely, and I know it hasn’t really gained any weight over the 997, but imo the bigger and more modern 991 is best suited to the fantastic 3.0 turbo engine. I’m not talking about GT stuff, but only Carreras. I love my manual N/A C2 997.1, but I also loved the 991.2 PDK C4 I recently drove. Indeed a fabulous car! Nowadays my 997 is a pure weekends/occasional car (also with a kid in the back) and I love it’s raw nature (for the lack of a better word) and while it is perfectly capable to even do daily duties, I think I have become old enough to appreciate a turbocharged, pdk’d more comfortable 911 as a daily driver .

Ive had a 991.1GTS since 2015 and love everything about it. In particular the normally aspirated engine. It may be less powerful than the Turbos but I find it much more interesting to drive. I did not own either of the 996/997 generations although I did drive a couple of 997s (great cars). In the past Ive owned a 3.2 Carrera and a 993 Carrera S both of which I used daily but I wouldn't go back to them (as a daily) now.

Louis Balfour said: The 991 bored me stupid and, by the time I sold, it I actively disliked it. Was that just down to the steering or was there more to it?

Grantstown said: When I was looking for a 997.2, the jump in price to a new 991.2 wasn’t that much, so I went for it. In contrast, the jump from a 991.1 to a new 992 is now massive, so I think it shows the great value that you can get. Enjoy it. Yes, a decent manual 997.2 S seems to command about £45k, 991.1 S £55k and 991.2 starts at about £65k (or £70kish for a T) so 50% more for a 991.2.

PaulD86 said: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1281913-modifying-... This thread has all the info, but you'll need to read a fair way through it. Does seems a bit of effort, but could be worth it. Great, thanks for that. Will investigate further.

I have a 981 with the same steering - I assume - as the 991. It is ok but has very little feel. It does not have no feel but it is just maybe ok at best. I do like the car but not because it is focused or feelsome but because it just works so well as a car for the day to day stuff or boring stuff. It is PDK so driving it is just so easy. I also have a 996 which is modified. Driving it is a real event. I also have a standard 986. Driving that is like an old classic compared to the other 2. So while the 981 doesnt have good steering feel I still say it is a good car. So I think it depends what you want. If you really want feel and character you do not want the modern car. I think that should be obvious.

JackReacher said: Louis Balfour said: The 991 bored me stupid and, by the time I sold, it I actively disliked it. Was that just down to the steering or was there more to it? Much more to it. The steering was numb. That was not helped by the PDCC which, on the early cars, had some issues. It particularly did this weird oversteer thing on high-speed sweeping bends. It was quite unnerving. Also the suspension would adjust itself for no good reason, at low speed, and it caused nausea. Several owners of early 991s complained about it. The 991 didn't feel as nimble as the 997. It felt quite big in comparison. I didn't like the ride quality very much, quite apart from the PDCC issues. The gearbox in normal mode wanted always to be in a silly high gear to save the planet. You'd just trundle about and pick-up wasn't always immediate when you put your foot down. Auto stop-start could not be permanently switched off. But the biggest single problem was that the car just felt like any German car, when I was pottering about in it. It was too much a daily driver and not special enough. I went 997.1>991.1>991.1>997.2. I liked both the 997s much more than the 991s.

Louis Balfour said: Various issues. I went 997.1>991.1>991.1>997.2. I liked both the 997s much more than the 991s. So clearly not a fan of the 991.1 have you tried a 991.2 and how did that compare?

JackReacher said: Louis Balfour said: Various issues. I went 997.1>991.1>991.1>997.2. I liked both the 997s much more than the 991s. So clearly not a fan of the 991.1 have you tried a 991.2 and how did that compare? He was a fan enough to try a 2nd 991 Jack! Maybe it’s worth considering that all of these cars are better with fewer options. PDCC helps get a few more seconds at the ring, but it makes the car Uber flat, so it’s harder to sense when you’re at the limit of traction. This makes it a bit of a crap option for a road car. Also, there’s more to go wrong. Inevitably the gen 2 cars have the opportunity to right a few wrongs. One thing to remember is that a 991.2 gives you more options to mod the car. Mine has numerous ‘upgrades’ that those with warranties would scorn at, but a 506bhp manual rear drive 991 with a top draw diff is a very different proposition to a 997 and something that you could consider doing in time. I think I’ll get an air cooled car at some point, to experience the old school charms, as there’s no 911 that can give you everything. The only way is to sample across the whole pallet.

Grantstown said: JackReacher said: Louis Balfour said: Various issues. I went 997.1>991.1>991.1>997.2. I liked both the 997s much more than the 991s. So clearly not a fan of the 991.1 have you tried a 991.2 and how did that compare? He was a fan enough to try a 2nd 991 Jack! Not really, the first one was rejected because it was an absolute dog. They built me a new one.

Maybe 991s in general. My local OPC (Sheffield) have just taken a gorgeous 991.2 manual. Gave £60k for it (think is up for £67k). Chatting to the group buyer, said it was absolutely mint, great spec, and couldn’t believe they hadn’t had a single call about it in a week.

Suspect the marmite colour scheme and lack of options is holding it back. Must be about as close to a ‘new’ 991.2 as you can get though - it’s barely run in!

Unsure about unloved. Not really a common take. I think it’s the sweet spot of recent Porsches. Last N/A (manual, RWD) 911 that seats 4. Only real option if you’re a fully grown man who doesn’t enjoy folding himself into a car.

neilf said: Maybe 991s in general. My local OPC (Sheffield) have just taken a gorgeous 991.2 manual. Ok Gave £60k for it (think is up for £67k). Chatting to the group buyer, said it was absolutely mint, great spec, and couldn’t believe they hadn’t had a single call about it in a week. I would say that’s a very sweet looking example Colour combo actually looks superb, especially with those wheels - although not personally a fan of dark metallics - too much effort trying to keep them looking nice. More importantly, the .2 offered improvements over the .1, inc an improved manual gearbox.

Wasn't the early 7 speed manual also crud in comparison to the old 6 speed? Not as smooth a shift and with another plane that further muddles things for 7th?

When the 991.1 7-spd manual was first introduced, it was criticised by the motoring media, and on here, for lacking the finesse of the old 6-spd. This lead to it becoming somewhat unpopular and boosted sales of PDK, making 991.1 Manuals quite rare. However, by the 991.2 launch, it had been significantly improved, but only really got noticed in the 991.2’T’ where the media gave it a lot more praise. 7th is for quiet economical motorway cruising. Edited by Koln-RS on Saturday 14th October 20:06

Koln-RS said: neilf said: Maybe 991s in general. My local OPC (Sheffield) have just taken a gorgeous 991.2 manual. Ok Gave £60k for it (think is up for £67k). Chatting to the group buyer, said it was absolutely mint, great spec, and couldn’t believe they hadn’t had a single call about it in a week. I would say that’s a very sweet looking example Colour combo actually looks superb, especially with those wheels - although not personally a fan of dark metallics - too much effort trying to keep them looking nice. More importantly, the .2 offered improvements over the .1, inc an improved manual gearbox. I also like the colour scheme, but not the wheels. If it had PSE I might consider it. Less than 6k miles in 6 years with 3 different owners is also hard to believe. Even if the first was a dealer demo, what the chances that the next 2 owners averages less than 1k a year? Must be incredibly unusual.

JackReacher said: Koln-RS said: neilf said: Maybe 991s in general. My local OPC (Sheffield) have just taken a gorgeous 991.2 manual. Ok Gave £60k for it (think is up for £67k). Chatting to the group buyer, said it was absolutely mint, great spec, and couldn’t believe they hadn’t had a single call about it in a week. I would say that’s a very sweet looking example Colour combo actually looks superb, especially with those wheels - although not personally a fan of dark metallics - too much effort trying to keep them looking nice. More importantly, the .2 offered improvements over the .1, inc an improved manual gearbox. I also like the colour scheme, but not the wheels. If it had PSE I might consider it. Less than 6k miles in 6 years with 3 different owners is also hard to believe. Even if the first was a dealer demo, what the chances that the next 2 owners averages less than 1k a year? Must be incredibly unusual. That is one fine looking I wouldn’t call the colour combo marmite, but rather “996-esque” if you know what I mean. It would have rouched leather, if it would have been available Agate grey (interior) is colour that can be difficult to photograph. In direct sunlight it looks indeed grey, but turns brown in any other lighting condition. In the dark it looks more like espresso brown. And as has been established before, 911 get better as base C2 with not many options Usually this specs get driven the most. It certainly is unusual to have had that many owner who didn’t drive it. But maybe there is a good explanation for it and this could be a really good deal for someone! Also PSE can be retrofitted by the dealer. Since he has not had a single call, might be a good time for negotiating PSE into the deal

Filibuster said: That is one fine looking I wouldn’t call the colour combo marmite, but rather “996-esque” if you know what I mean. It would have rouched leather, if it would have been available Agate grey (interior) is colour that can be difficult to photograph. In direct sunlight it looks indeed grey, but turns brown in any other lighting condition. In the dark it looks more like espresso brown. And as has been established before, 911 get better as base C2 with not many options Usually this specs get driven the most. It certainly is unusual to have had that many owner who didn’t drive it. But maybe there is a good explanation for it and this could be a really good deal for someone! Also PSE can be retrofitted by the dealer. Since he has not had a single call, might be a good time for negotiating PSE into the deal It’s the agate interior I was referring to as marmite, I quite like the blue. I’ve never seen an agate interior in real life but if it’s closer to brown than the 80s slip-on shoe grey in the photograph then maybe it’s better than I imagined. Agree with the 996 comparison!