Deep Sump & Accusump Vs Deep Sump & Dual Tandem Scavenge Pumps?

Another oil starvation question, but I figure the more info on options the better! So, I'm ready to track my car - most likely using as sticky as possible street tires like RE11's. May add front/rear sway bars as first performance upgrade as generally considered best bang for buck upgrade before going nuts on shocks/suspension upgrades. I've read LN engineering 's page on oil starvation options, but they never really ever get to whats required for say a car that's mostly street with light/medium track work. They detail each option as an addition to the last and if one were to follow this yellow brick road, it would get into serious money - the kind of money that would start to ask the question "should I just trade my 1st Gen 987 for a later model with the DFI engine/dry sump and none of the issues? I had considered 996 swirl pots but after reading very detailed real-time data from another user, these are literally useless in preventing oil starvation so I will not include these in my options. Assuming I want to keep my faithful 1st Gen, I'm stuck with some decisions and appreciate input from experienced techs. Here are the options as I see them without going bonkers as my car is not a dedicated track/race car! Option#1 0.5qt deep sump with modified X51 baffles ($700 approx) and a 2qt accusump ($1400) - would a 3rd radiator ($350 approx) make a significant difference?? Total = $2100-$2450 (plus labor - only for accusump install, anyone got an idea on time to do this as underneath car install? Deep sump is an easy DIY job) OR Option#2 0.5qt deep sump with modified X51 baffles ($700 approx) and Dual Tandem Scavenge Pumps to the cylinder heads ($3000) - again not sure if 3rd radiator ($350 approx) would be required? Total = $3700-$4050 (plus labor - labor for this option (15 hours+) is probably the most adding at least $2K to the bill if I consider my local independent shop I choose to do all my work with) OR 2qt deep sump with integrated X51 baffles ($849) and a third radiator ($350 approx). I figured here that the sheer extra volume of oil plus baffles would be an almost sure solution for my needs unless I start running R-compounds and go further with race suspension setup. With this sump a skid plate is recommended, but I've no idea where to find or how much it costs? Total=$1200 approx excluding skid plate (plus labor) Can anyone comment on approx time to install a 3rd radiator - I've looked at some DIY tecs that were about 5 hour from recollection, so would expect an experienced shop to be less than this? Thoughts, changes, input?? Thanks!

If you're just starting out with street tires and no suspension mods, no mods to the oil system are necessary. The third radiator has nothing to do with oil issues but will lower operating water temps in hot weather conditions. Five hours seems about right. I did this mod myself and there are a few articles on how to remove the bumper cover and radiator install. If running R comps with suspension mods and driving hard, you will need to address the air/oil separator. I use the 996 part, the 987 part is easier to install but costs more. I use the Mantis sump (+2 qts) with baffles. O.K. so far.

you can ask them to send you the diagram about what's the best set up for street and track. if you are gonna track your car a lot, they recommend 2qt Deep Sump & Dual Tandem Scavenge Pumps.

The #1 thing you need to preserve your gen 1 engine is free. Do not exceed 6,700 RPM. The root cause of most engine failures is weak rods / rod bolts. Engines equipped with accusumps, deep sumps and TTP kits have failed do to rod bolt issues. Not that an accusump / deep sump is a bad idea, they do help insure a steady oil supply but they are really just band aids.

Why anyone would rev beyond that is idiotic - the red line isn't a cosmetic after touch Under hard acceleration I shift at just over 6K, there's clearly not much left beyond that anyway in our cars. All the fun is 3.5K to 6K and the engine should be able to handle that all day long. I like the idea of an extra 2qt baffled sump with upgraded AOS the best, but not if it means the car is bottoming out around town. I think I'd be fine right now as I have stock suspension, but may become problematic if I change the suspension in the future.

I had a Mantis deep sump and it was not the low point of the car. My car was lowered and I never scraped it.

whats the volume of the Mantis deep sump? im thinking about the 2qt deep sump from LN, but they said i might get damaged from street use, so it's better to get the skid plate, too.

My Mantis sump is the old design and it added 2 qts. My car is lowered at least an inch and I've only bottomed once. Mantis has revised the sump and it looks like over-all it is a little shallower. Maybe Ernie from Mantis will jump in.

LN just replied me their 2qt deep sump is 1 inch thick, so shouldn't be too bad for caymans .

I read the oil starvation section on LN Engineering 's website ( Preventing oil starvation on the track in your Boxster, Cayman, or 911 model Porsche. ) and then I went with a 2qt Accusump on my 06 Cayman S. Based upon the above, I didn't see a huge benefit to adding 0.5qts via the deeper sump or the baffles. I did install an indicator light as well, and on Yokohama AD08s, I do see it fire off at least twice per lap at Oregon Raceway Park even though these are street tires. I haven't seen any temp. creep thus far even running 90 deg days in the Pac NW so I haven't really worried about a 3rd radiator yet. I did get the PS cooler though and changed over to Redline PS fluid -- the PS cooler seemed like an easy and cheap thing relatively speaking.

This is an interesting approach. I've always thought that the baffles and extended sump would offer lot of effectiveness, but thinking about it more simplistically, the accusump blasting 2qts of oil to where it's needed should really be all that's needed! As long as the accusump gets the oil there in time, otherwise there's always the chance that over time you stress the engine by having a little 'frothing' going on before the accusump does it's job? That's why I thought the baffled sump would slow down the transfer of oil to the right side of the engine pickup and the accusump could be more effective at ensuring it does it's job on time? What was the cost of the accusump install (just the installation, not the price of the part) and how many hours? I'm assuming you did the stealth install underneath the car with a plexiglass cutout to see it? Thanks.

The Mantis sump comes with baffles to slow oil surge. The sump plus the Motorsport A/O separator is all I did. Bought the sump directly from Mantis.

Thanks! And you track your car? Street toe tires? Stock suspension? No issues obviously? You didn't install a skid plate? Is the mantis sump a straight plug and play that can be done by yourself? Or does it require any special modifications or tooling? I will have a shop install the 987 Motorsports AOS even though it looks like a DIY project that I'd feel comfortable doing.

I'm on my 3'rd engine in my 06 CS w/ 80K miles. the first died @ 38K miles due to an on-track over-rev -- the rod bearing for #6 was spun. my 0.00003 is that oil starvation exacerbated the problem. the second, a spare-almost-no-expense LN rebuild to a 3.6 and the TTP second scavenge pump also died (the engine, not the pump!), albeit more slowly -- it showed progressive and significant oil consumption -- burned internally. at best, intake valve guides only. at worst ... the magnet on the oil drain plug consistently captured a buildup of ultra fine/smooth material. after 30K miles, some on track, I pulled that engine and replaced it w/ a good used stock '07 boxster engine. my CS won't be returning to the track. on another board, L8APX instrumented his gen 1 CS and found his oil pressure dropping to near zero on a particular corner of high plains raceway -- a tight downhill right-hander. i drove that same track and corner w/ engine #2 --- and drove the track where #1 died as well. it too has a very tight right-hander. lastly - i then monitored my own oil pressure and returned to the track where #1 died. my oil pressure dropped to (near) 0 @ the right-hander until i modified my driving style to maintain my oil pressure thru that corner. all this while using the ttp dual scavenging pump. given the # laps thru that tight right hand turn -- before becoming aware of the bottoming oil pressure -- my 0.00003 is that excessive wear and subsequent oil consumption happened due to bottoming oil pressure while on the track. someday i'll pull that engine apart and do a post-mortem. did i mention my CS won't be returning to the track? a few of the posts above seem to be offering some "rules" for what will/won't smoke your engine - stated in pretty stark terms - doubtless to keep things simple. pardon me if I do the same. ignore the simplistic rules which say you'll be OK below a certain rpm or on street tires or if your name is Chloe. w/o fully instrumenting a car nobody *knows* what's safe and what's not. the few of us who have collected data have just that - an idea of what's tolerable and what's not. if I were taking a M96/97 to the track I would only do so w/ an accusump - and one hell of a loud buzzer for the improbable, tight turn that exhausts even the accusump. this engine simply can't scavenge oil properly under certain conditions. mmmv, Mark PS - my current engine? hasn't used a drop of oil since it was installed.

Nice to know I'm not the only guy on engine #3. I am recording OP this time around!

[=Plainsman;762571]I'm on my 3'rd engine in my 06 CS w/ 80K miles. the first died @ 38K miles due to an on-track over-rev -- the rod bearing for #6 was spun. my 0.00003 is that oil starvation exacerbated the problem. the second, a spare-almost-no-expense LN rebuild to a 3.6 and the TTP second scavenge pump also died (the engine, not the pump!), albeit more slowly -- it showed progressive and significant oil consumption -- burned internally. at best, intake valve guides only. at worst ... the magnet on the oil drain plug consistently captured a buildup of ultra fine/smooth material. after 30K miles, some on track, I pulled that engine and replaced it w/ a good used stock '07 boxster engine. my CS won't be returning to the track. on another board, L8APX instrumented his gen 1 CS and found his oil pressure dropping to near zero on a particular corner of high plains raceway -- a tight downhill right-hander. i drove that same track and corner w/ engine #2 --- and drove the track where #1 died as well. it too has a very tight right-hander. lastly - i then monitored my own oil pressure and returned to the track where #1 died. my oil pressure dropped to (near) 0 @ the right-hander until i modified my driving style to maintain my oil pressure thru that corner. all this while using the ttp dual scavenging pump. given the # laps thru that tight right hand turn -- before becoming aware of the bottoming oil pressure -- my 0.00003 is that excessive wear and subsequent oil consumption happened due to bottoming oil pressure while on the track. someday i'll pull that engine apart and do a post-mortem. did i mention my CS won't be returning to the track? a few of the posts above seem to be offering some "rules" for what will/won't smoke your engine - stated in pretty stark terms - doubtless to keep things simple. pardon me if I do the same. ignore the simplistic rules which say you'll be OK below a certain rpm or on street tires or if your name is Chloe. w/o fully instrumenting a car nobody *knows* what's safe and what's not. the few of us who have collected data have just that - an idea of what's tolerable and what's not. if I were taking a M96/97 to the track I would only do so w/ an accusump - and one hell of a loud buzzer for the improbable, tight turn that exhausts even the accusump. this engine simply can't scavenge oil properly under certain conditions. mmmv, Mark PS - my current engine? hasn't used a drop of oil since it was installed.[/QUOTE] Thanks for the reply. Sounds like a horror movie. I am in Colorado so good to know that track is an engine destroyer! I am with you regarding the accusump and wondering now if I can fit a larger than 2qt one under the car? I'd like to think a 2qt or larger accusump with extra 2qt deep sump with baffles seems like the way to go. If I can afford the additional scavenging pumps then I'd feel pretty safe with street tires. As for the revving it seems like pushing beyond the red limit without upgraded rods is just shouting for trouble. I'll stick to enjoying a little fast fun on the track over trying to shave a second per lap. I'm doing it for fun, I'm not planning on being a professional racer, so common sense prevails knowing the limitations of the car.

Globespy, 68 track days on this engine, PSS9s, lowered, BFG R1 tires, -3.0 F and -2.5 R camber, instructor run group.

Wow! I guess that's a really good example of what works. I'm assuming you don't red line the crud out of your car like some others on this thread who are on engine #3? Sounds like your setup is fine for how you treat your car. Thanks!

This is an excellant thread, the Dual Tandem Scavenge Pump is available from TTP Germany although LN stopped making it as did Porsche . LN now says that their deep 2 qt sump/windage plate and 997 down tubes are your primary protection, but the TTP oil safe kit will help vacate the oil/foam from your heads. You can order a skid plate for under car protection as well (I did). So, building out the front of my car with CSF (center a 997 GT3 type with chimney and exhaust) and a LN spin on filter adaptor with a 60 micron screen filter to keep the oil pressure high during the final 15 minutes of run time . With these five modifications, Porsche Motor Sports 987.1 AOS, TTP oil safe kit, 2 qt LN deep sump/windage plate/997 down tubes, GT3 CSF center radiator with chimeny, LN spin on filter adaptor with a 60 micron pass through, I will be addressing the shortcoming of the 987.1 M97 engine . I may also need an oil pressure, oil temp and water temp analog gauges with this setup. Lastly, motor oil with a excellant PSI prevention of #6 rod bearing scarring, high heat distruction category , low viscosity to vacate the engine heads through various down tubes/scavenge pump, low form additives like Mobil 1 FS label 0W-40, or Driven XP -9 10W-40 as noted by RAT/540.