997,2 1st to 2nd gear crunch manual box - Page 2 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

I am in the process of buying a 997.2. As always the paranoid thing sets in when buying the new car!! I am exchanging a 2006 56 997 with 39K for a 2009 59 997.2 with 32k During the test drive of the 997.2 I noticed a subtle grinding/crunch when engaging into 2nd gear from first. Also a small vibration through the gear shifter when engaging the gears, I have mentioned these faults to the dealers and they are looking into it. One of their mechanics suggested it could be a loose linkage and another said it may need an oil change. I have asked around friends in the trade an none of them can really give me any idea's, so I've come here hoping someone has had a similar problem and maybe even a solution.

Bossitt said: I am in the process of buying a 997.2. As always the paranoid thing sets in when buying the new car!! I am exchanging a 2006 56 997 with 39K for a 2009 59 997.2 with 32k During the test drive of the 997.2 I noticed a subtle grinding/crunch when engaging into 2nd gear from first. Also a small vibration through the gear shifter when engaging the gears, I have mentioned these faults to the dealers and they are looking into it. One of their mechanics suggested it could be a loose linkage and another said it may need an oil change. I have asked around friends in the trade an none of them can really give me any idea's, so I've come here hoping someone has had a similar problem and maybe even a solution. A crunch from 1st to 2nd sounds like a synchro hub has worn - I'd walk away, there's plenty of other cars available that will have been looked after and driven more sympathetically.

My car Also crunches from 1st to 2nd especially when cold and the engine not very very well warmed up. Needs a good 10-20 mile run effort it gets slick I'm also finding that selecting first or reverse is difficult first thing in the morning - normally select 3rd then 4th and then first or reverse and with the first change to second gear I double clutch to make it select easier. The car has 8k miles on the clock but does have a short shift kit fitted. Certainly hope it's not clutch or gearbox issues!

ievans said: A crunch from 1st to 2nd sounds like a synchro hub has worn - I'd walk away, there's plenty of other cars available that will have been looked after and driven more sympathetically. I sort of get that feeling too, the dealer has promised to change the oil and give the car the a thorough test drive after, if the gear crunch is still there I will be walking away. No money changed hands yet, just fuel and more miles on my car. Such a shame though White 997.2 S, White interior trim, white hardback seats, Sports exhaust, Carerra Decals at low level (IMO look great), low miles 32k all for £43K. The last thing I want to do is trade my perfect 997 S in for a bum, not much money left in the kitty for repairs if the purchase goes through!! Thanks ievans for your opinion

Shiverman said: My car Also crunches from 1st to 2nd especially when cold and the engine not very very well warmed up. Needs a good 10-20 mile run effort it gets slick I'm also finding that selecting first or reverse is difficult first thing in the morning - normally select 3rd then 4th and then first or reverse and with the first change to second gear I double clutch to make it select easier. The car has 8k miles on the clock but does have a short shift kit fitted. Certainly hope it's not clutch or gearbox issues! This crunching really concerns me, my current car (997.1) gear change is perfect, so are my other vehicles. I can't see how this can be a normal thing. I too hope you don't have problems with clutch or gearbox, I will be walking away from this sale if the issue is still there when I return to test drive it.

These gearbox's Should be nothing less than perfect cold or hot.Something amiss me thinks.

Thanks for the advise and I'll get an OPC to look at it when it goes in for a few other bits and bobs. My previous Cayman was also very notchy until properly warmed up so whilst not enjoyable I had not been unduly concerned until this post. I have heard the SS kit makes the gears harder to select so as both cars have had that 'feature' I had put the gear change down to that.

Hi, I have first hand info on this. I bought a 997.2 GTS last November from an OPC. As another poster said above, it crunched from 1-2 and was difficult to get into 1st and reverse when cold. Once the box was warmed up there were no issues at all. I complained and said this wasn't right. After a bit of wrangle I got the gearbox (actually comes delivered from the factory as gearbox, clutch and diff) replaced under warranty. I can report that the brand new gearbox is EXACTLY the same as the old gearbox (and yes, it has definitely been replaced!) that had 45,000 miles on it. To add, mine also has short shift kit. I feel this may be the culprit. PM me if you want any more info. But personally, from my experience, it seems this is just the way these boxes are on the gen 2 when they have a factory short shift kit installed.

jackwood said: Hi, I have first hand info on this. I bought a 997.2 GTS last November from an OPC. As another poster said above, it crunched from 1-2 and was difficult to get into 1st and reverse when cold. Once the box was warmed up there were no issues at all. I complained and said this wasn't right. After a bit of wrangle I got the gearbox (actually comes delivered from the factory as gearbox, clutch and diff) replaced under warranty. I can report that the brand new gearbox is EXACTLY the same as the old gearbox (and yes, it has definitely been replaced!) that had 45,000 miles on it. To add, mine also has short shift kit. I feel this may be the culprit. PM me if you want any more info. But personally, from my experience, it seems this is just the way these boxes are on the gen 2 when they have a factory short shift kit installed. Thanks for your reply jackwood, I'm going to test drive the 997.2 this weekend to make a final decision. I don't think this car is fitted with the short shift though, I will ask the question at the weekend although the salesman selling the car has already emailed me to mention he's seen this thread. So he will know what Im going to ask before I arrive, you just can't sneeze these days!!!!!!

Bossitt said: Thanks for your reply jackwood, I'm going to test drive the 997.2 this weekend to make a final decision. I don't think this car is fitted with the short shift though, I will ask the question at the weekend although the salesman selling the car has already emailed me to mention he's seen this thread. So he will know what Im going to ask before I arrive, you just can't sneeze these days!!!!!! I would agree with what jackwood said. This is my experience on a 997.2 GTS, before and after installing short-shift kit. Not sure this helps but FYI.

Bossitt said: I sort of get that feeling too, the dealer has promised to change the oil and give the car the a thorough test drive after, if the gear crunch is still there I will be walking away. No money changed hands yet, just fuel and more miles on my car. Such a shame though White 997.2 S, White interior trim, white hardback seats, Sports exhaust, Carerra Decals at low level (IMO look great), low miles 32k all for £43K. The last thing I want to do is trade my perfect 997 S in for a bum, not much money left in the kitty for repairs if the purchase goes through!! Thanks ievans for your opinion Even if the oil change is done, I'd be nervous as to how long the gearbox has been noisy for. An oil change may help, but the dealer may just increase the quantity of oil in the gearbox to mask the problem. I don't think a short shift kit would make any difference, and shouldn't make the crunching any better or worse. From what you describe, sounds like the crunching is due to the 1st/2nd synchro hubs in the gearbox having too much wear on them. Whats supposed to happen is when you shift from 1st to 2nd, as the lever moves through the gate, the synchro hubs first mate together, and bring the 2 gears to the same rotational speed. Then, when the lever makes the last movement fully into gear, both gears are moving at the same speed, and so mesh silently together. If the synchro hubs are worn, then the 2 gears do not mate together to rotate at the same speed, so when the gears mesh, they crunch. In the worst case, this crunching leads to a gear tooth breaking off, and can cause the gearbox to fail catastrophically. Jackwood's replacement gearbox making exactly the same crunching noise after a warranty replacement is quite strange....! Its almost as if the short shift kit shortens the travel of the

My 997.2 was the same when cold. To get the car into 1st you have to go into 2nd first... Seems strange on an expensive car but it is a characteristic of the box... There was sometimes a thump when going into 2nd... I complained and they said it was normal

ievans said: Even if the oil change is done, I'd be nervous as to how long the gearbox has been noisy for. An oil change may help, but the dealer may just increase the quantity of oil in the gearbox to mask the problem. I don't think a short shift kit would make any difference, and shouldn't make the crunching any better or worse. From what you describe, sounds like the crunching is due to the 1st/2nd synchro hubs in the gearbox having too much wear on them. Whats supposed to happen is when you shift from 1st to 2nd, as the lever moves through the gate, the synchro hubs first mate together, and bring the 2 gears to the same rotational speed. Then, when the lever makes the last movement fully into gear, both gears are moving at the same speed, and so mesh silently together. If the synchro hubs are worn, then the 2 gears do not mate together to rotate at the same speed, so when the gears mesh, they crunch. In the worst case, this crunching leads to a gear tooth breaking off, and can cause the gearbox to fail catastrophically. Jackwood's replacement gearbox making exactly the same crunching noise after a warranty replacement is quite strange....! Its almost as if the short shift kit shortens the travel of the I will be test driving the car again tomorrow, so I'll see how it feels. When I test dove the car for the first time my senses were heightened but I found the no stiffness between 1st and 2nd just a gentle short rumble when selecting 2nd gear at low speed. I have to say, I didn't drive the car very far due to my concerns. I am retuning in the morning to give the car a good run and see what happens.

totally normal to have the low rumble between 1st and 2nd... It's a quirk.

jackwood said: Hi, I have first hand info on this. I bought a 997.2 GTS last November from an OPC. As another poster said above, it crunched from 1-2 and was difficult to get into 1st and reverse when cold. Once the box was warmed up there were no issues at all. I complained and said this wasn't right. After a bit of wrangle I got the gearbox (actually comes delivered from the factory as gearbox, clutch and diff) replaced under warranty. I can report that the brand new gearbox is EXACTLY the same as the old gearbox (and yes, it has definitely been replaced!) that had 45,000 miles on it. To add, mine also has short shift kit. I feel this may be the culprit. PM me if you want any more info. But personally, from my experience, it seems this is just the way these boxes are on the gen 2 when they have a factory short shift kit installed. Yep, I had the same but on a 997.1 C2S, gearbox replaced and still did it when cold. It didn't, however if you changed gear at higher revs, perhaps over 3k from 1st to 2nd when cold

Just to add - my 997.1 GT3 gearbox is a bit grumpy when cold esp going from 1st to second. Has always been like this and it is temp dependent (worse when it's cold ambient). When it warms up it is slick and perfect. I suspect the quick shifter, esp if it's the GT3 part could be related to why you guys are seeing this also. I assume the GT3 box is completely different to Carerra, but maybe the quick shift causes it somehow.

Having looked into it, the consensus seems to be this: when cold, the 997 box is always a bit of a b d going into 1st (and sometimes 2nd); it is not uncommon (but probably still a defect) for it to simply refuse to go into 1st without double de-clutching. It's basically a nice box with a design flaw in the 1/2 synchro. It varies between being a bit annoying and pretty much unusable. I think mine is towards the bend end of the spectrum and will need replacing soon.

I will add my GTS 17k miles is exactly the same and still under warranty but Im going to live with it because they all do that. Yes really, this many posters including low mileage cant be wrong. I should add mine is stock shift so short shift isnt the reason. The good news is its absolutely perfect after 20 miles and mostly ok after 10 miles. The technique I use now is the same as I did in the dog leg ferraris I owned and that is dont use 2nd gear going up the box for the first 10miles or so to protect the synchros but changing down into 2nd is ok from the get go. Its not going to catastrophically fail but is a weakness so the avoid 2nd when cold trick is worthwhile or double de clutch but its slower so i dont tend to bother anymore . I really dont think anything of it now, shouldnt have to really but the car is so exceptional in every other way its worth it and sweet when hot. It does make me smile how lauded this gearbox is but the reality is there are better including the 993 manual imo. Edited by kilarney on Friday 13th November 19:04

Nooooooooo If it crunches walk away...... Renee

Exactly the same as mine Kilarney - great after 10-20 miles and a pig before (esp. On these colder days). I normally double de clutch so maybe I'll have to try skipping second like you do. Feeling assured your guys cars all having the same 'feature' as mine my!! kilarney said: I will add my GTS 17k miles is exactly the same and still under warranty but Im going to live with it because they all do that. Yes really, this many posters including low mileage cant be wrong. I should add mine is stock shift so short shift isnt the reason. The good news is its absolutely perfect after 20 miles and mostly ok after 10 miles. The technique I use now is the same as I did in the dog leg ferraris I owned and that is dont use 2nd gear going up the box for the first 10miles or so to protect the synchros but changing down into 2nd is ok from the get go. Its not going to catastrophically fail but is a weakness so the avoid 2nd when cold trick is worthwhile or double de clutch but its slower so i dont tend to bother anymore . I really dont think anything of it now, shouldnt have to really but the car is so exceptional in every other way its worth it and sweet when hot. It does make me smile how lauded this gearbox is but the reality is there are better including the 993 manual imo. Edited by kilarney on Friday 13th November 19:04

Mine did this, 997.1 C4S, 2006 MY with short shifter bought in 2012. Crunched when cold from 5th to 6th on a fast upchange. Got the synchro on 6th changed free as car was new, then later it started doing it from 3rd to 4th. I ended up paying £4k for a brand new gearbox and put it down to my driving style, and the short shifter exacerbating it. I am a bit gentler with it now and have noticed it is considerably stiffer in the morning when cold. I would not buy a car with this problem.

Bennachie said: Nooooooooo If it crunches walk away...... Renee Couldn't agree more..! A noisy gearbox isn't right, and isn't going to get any better without repair. If it finally fails after your warranty has expired, you're in for a very big bill. Walk away, and keep looking for the right car. I've driven plenty of 997s, and a well maintained car should change gear silently. When the car is cold, especially when ambient temperatures are low, and the gearbox oil is thick, you will feel some resistance between 1st and 2nd, but give it time, and it will engage quietly. A car thats been driven unsympathetically, and synchros forced together, will wear and lead to noise.

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Thank you for everyone contributing to this thread. It appears there's mixed opinions regarding the crunching/vibrating gearbox, is it normal? Or is it a quirky feature off the 997.2? i test drove two other C2 997.2's as the dealer advised me to do, the first with 38K and the other with 25K miles on the clock. Neither one had any crunch or vibration between first and second gear, both cars slipped through all the gears like silk from a cold start. So these test two drives answered my questions for me. Wether it be normal or not I wasn't willing to take the punt on the crunchy gearbox. My current 997 runs through the gears perfectly, no NOTHING, just like the other two cars did, to me this is how a gear box should be, so this 'so called Quirk" is actually a design fault, in my world i don't like quirks I like perfection so the white C2S wasn't for me. i have since placed a deposit on 25K mile 997.2 C2s without the quirky gearbox and I feel 100% confident with my decision, this is how you should feel when spending all your pocket money on your new toy, why buy anxiety for fun? So my advice to anyone else reading this thread is "if you like the quirkier things in life buy a 911 with a crunchy gearbox!"

I had a crunch from 1st to 2nd on a S/H OPC purchased 997 after a while, reported it at a service, It was a worn synchro hub, new box fitted, thank you OPC and extended warrantee = happy customer.

Some interesting comments, personally from experience I would always walk away from a noisy or grindy gearbox. Just curious but do the Cayman and 911 share gearboxes? I'm guessing they don't, speaking of which I don't think I've read about any Cayman gearbox failures. Is it the same gearbox in the 997.1 and 997.2?

Bumping this one up from the depths. My 997.2 C4S was very slow to change 1st to 2nd when cold and a few other gears we not great. Very rarely, 2nd would slip right in with no resistance, but would crunch. Tried changing the gearbox oil which made a very minor improvement. I ended up putting it in with a specialist for a rebuild which included 2nd gear set (hub and synchro), 3rd synchro a new clutch and two tapered bearings. They also cleaned and lapped 1st, 4th, 5th and 6th synchros. They found a few nasty surfaces which explain the behaviour I was seeing. The inside of the gearbox was caked in baked on brown residue. My car also has the factory LSD option (quite rare to see aparently). They think it's had an oil change which used the wrong oil in the past, plus the LSD may have thrown off some debris being churned around. After the rebuild it is much better even from cold, although 2nd is a bit notchy. I am told "they all do that sir" and am now inclined to believe it. For anyone interested, the total cost was approx £4400 which is less than I had expected originally.