Bruntingthorpe photos for "low fliers" - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Nice photos VS...as you say top day,,,very nice to put faces to the names...I know dazren is smiling now,and so is Iguana after you drove him home...I did enjoy the run in Jeremy C s' Cerbera,...raw power an amazing car (am I allowed to say that on a porsche forum)also was blown AWAY by 944/68 Turbo "S",,,,you do seem to have quit a few photos of that car on your page..can't imagine why?...did you like it?????? Fantastic day guys..sorry for rambling got home had to deck a bottle of Chablis as I am supposed to be meeting the girlie at a '70s disco night!..my worst nightmare,,,can't dance unless I am bol***sed..you know how it is.... P.S. that C4 S don't go too bad for a heavyweight with only 285 bhp.........sounds like 500 though!!!

Absolutely brilliant day guys, good to see you all. Be interested to see the fastest speeds of the various cars. Thanks to Maurice for all his superb organisation, would have loved to have done a few more laps but was out of fuel.

An absolutely superb day where all attendees and vehicles returned home in one piece, other than a latecomer who was at Bruntinghthorpe anyway who thought he'd do one run and show us Porschephiles how the japs do it better. A big thanks goes out to Maurice for organising the day and his helpers who all made the day run so smoothly. I think I speak for eveyone on this Forum when I say we were glad to hear his wife is OK following the events of friday. Also good to meet a few more PHers that I can now put faces to when I read their posts. Big thanks also goes out to JeremyC, who allowed us to have a little rerun topgear style in the Porsche v TVR shoot out. Details of timings etc can be found on the following website: www.titanic.co.uk/993/Bruntingthorpe/ cheers DAZ (Modesty in victory forbade me from being the first to post when I got in last night. Being shattered from the driving and fresh air. My mental state following England beating the French at Rugby had nothing to do with it.) Note victory by 1mph which considering the headwind is really a draw between myself and Martin, but a victory absolute for the Porsche 996tt X50.

Sounds like a good day was had by all. I was gutted when I could not get out of my nightshift to attend, and even more jealous heading home in the morning southbound on the M1 only to see quite a few 993's heading North. Couple of questions: 1. What was the runway surface like at high speed? 2. Some of the speeds seem nowhere near the published top speed of the cars, was this caused by the headwind or is two miles just not long enough to get up there? Or had you all had too much bacon that morning? Well done guys

A great day out Maurice - thanks for superb organisation. Mmmm, them pesky Porkers. Still, I guess I was the fastest normally aspirated car there, and of course the best looking..... I will return for a rematch when I work out why I wasn't faster...... Seemed perfect to me: smooth enough and very flat with very few stones. Errr yes, yes and yes. I was still accelerating through the speed trap at the end of the runway. The key to getting a fast time was to be able to exit the 180 degree bend before the straight at the fastest possible speed. The 4WD cars had a definite advantage in this respect. It might have been interesting to do some times from a standing start on the runway. And finally, this could make a fine venue for a PH summer event. Food for thought Ted.

Thanks to all Piston Heads attendees at BPG !! - I had no problems with any participant (apart from stealing FTD), and I am only sorry we didn't get an opportunity to socialise somewhat more. My wife has recovered rather more than I had hoped, ie, enough to give me grief! As if I prefer a Dyson to a TT....... You have to feel sorry for Mr GTR, they took all the crap really well after a very expensive sounding 1st run, hope the prognosis isn't too bad..... let me know. Needless to say, next time, I'll have PistonHeads up there on the invites from day one; your guys saved the day, we were not going to have the numbers to proceed - so big thanks due. Cheers, Maurice

Maurice, Thanks for sorting out our late entry in the GTR. Shame we only had a few minutes to speak to and admire all the lovely Porsches. After the 'problem' we were obviously embarrassed to require an AA tow and hence left straight away. Ah - the joys of 4 hours on an AA Transporter. For those that didn't see it, we had started our first (and last) run in the R33 GTR. We knew something was up when it stopped accelerating at an indicated 165mph on the in-car GPS about 300m back from the timing hut. (Last time that car did similar runs it was much faster). The problem has now been diagnosed as 2 spark plug tips somehow separating from their plugs and therefore running on only 4 cylinders. The smoke from the oil catch tank was in fact vaporised unburnt fuel evaporating from the oil. What we don't know is if there is any consequent engine damage. Needless to say that as ex-Porsche owners we were both very embarrassed by what happened. This car had been to the Nurburgring 24hrs and back this year and did 200mph on the autobahn no problem, so to expire when we did was unfortunate. Shame it's always a £10 item that causes the problems...... Needless to say we are both seriously considering getting Porsches instead. Guy PS For those interested the website for one of my other GTRs (with a genuine 1000bhp) is: www.vspec.btinternet.co.uk/Project_X.htm

Thanks for the update, Guy. What make of plugs did you fit on your last service, just casually by-the-by? All the best, Maurice

Sounds like a fantastic blast! I assume temperatures increased sufficiently? What time did the first runs commence? Daz - I think there's little doubt about your car's uber-status (I think I'm going to need a few more horses, just in case! ) Btw - weren't there any Ultimae around? Cheers, An exceedingly green eyed DeR!

Derestrictor..I think you are going to need a few horses to make a diffrenece on this kind of run. i was fortunate enough to have been a passenger in a few runs in both 996 TT,993 TT & 993 Turbo S.. The thing is due to the angle on the screen & rain guttering on the 993 you really can hear wind roar about 150mph and above.The 996 is a lot quieter at these speeds. I was suprised to see the 10mph spread between fastest 993 & 996 but mostly put it down to aerodynamics & the fact that Dazren was certainly up for it!

Paul - what you say makes eminent sense. Indeed, talking to one or two of the raccing bods at Tech9 in the past, the general feeling was that 993s needed over a monkey's worth of hoofology to guarantee post 200 speeds, conditions notwithstanding. How 'close' did/didn't things feel between, say the 993ttS & the X-packer, ito acceleration/at various points during acceleration? And was the 993tts a 430 or a 450 job? It all sounds very 'Diablo v. Vantage' whereby aredynamics eventually come into play... Bloody superb!

Someone help me out with the Porkology here. Which of the turbo'ed rashers have 4wd?

The 993 TT s was 450 bhp...It felt faster than the 996 due mainly to the noise...to be honest factor in the fantastic Cerbera 450 & you would never be able to guess timed speeds to within 10 mph for the top 5 cars. For some of us who were very fortunate & grateful to be passengers,jumping into such amazing cars in succesion was such an education.

Did anything get orf the line particularly quick? It sounds very even Stevens, in a real world sense; makes me wonder about the relative effectiveness of ALL the contenders in various A/B/m-way contexts. Also makes me wonder just how the aforementioned Ultimae and indeed, Noble would have got on? I just love all this talk about raw speed - and sharing such looning with you nutters! YYYYyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaargh!!!!!!

Jeremy,all of the turbos there on saturday were 4wd. 4wd came in with the 993 TT in 1995. Prior to that all the factory turbos were 2wd. 993 TT bhp standard = 408 turbo s = 430 or 450 The 430 upgrade was available on regular turbo for 1998 model year. 996 TT bhp standard = 420 X-pack = 450 In terms of weight both 993 & 996TT come in just above 1500kg I understand all 3 996 TT were X pack on Saturday. many thanks for the Ride in your Cerbera on saturday.that was my first ride in TVR s finest and won't be forgotten....If only the straight was a little longer ?? >> Edited by clubsport on Monday 17th February 10:12

I too would like to say thanks very much, to Maurice for organising, to JeremyC for an exhilarating passenger ride in the Cerbie 4.5 and last but very far from least to 944/68 (Paul). Paul's Turbo S (the yellow one in my pics) was a quite unbelievable car for me. Being a total "air cooled 911" junkie i have two ultimate dream cars: 993 GT2 for a toy 993 Turbo S for a "real world" performer. Realistically i'll be able to afford a 993TT, and i'll be knocking on DeR's door to get some help and advice re:mods when the time comes. I test drove a Noble just a week ago but it just doesn't float my boat quite like the air-cooled twin-turbo hooligan. VS

Ah, Petronius - you've actually piloted the Noble? Impressions, please! I just LOVE the look of that damn thing! Cheers, DeR.

Good morning gents. GuyR - Glad your car isn't as serious as I initially heard. Someone in the carpark mentioned a blown pistonwall. Hope the repairs aren't too costly. DeR - The car is definitely Uber status apart from the passenger mirror that had a bit of trim dangling at the end of each run (and before getting to the starting line for that matter). No Ultimas as Guy hasn't had the time to finish his winter mods program (bloody work getting in the way of Ultima developement time! PAH!! it's pathetic, sort your priorities out man!!). Clubsport - The issue of the difference in top speed between the two 996 turbo X50s and the 993 turbo S as you rightly say is partly down to aerodynamics. Also having spoken to Paul (turbo S owner) his car is geared in sixth to redline at 215mph. The 996 turbo X50 is geared to do 195 mph in sixth at the redline. I guess the longer sixth gear in the earlier car is another significant reason for the difference in speeds measured on the day. Iguana did comment that some of our American Porschephiles have been known to put a shorter sixth gear in the gearbox to get around this characteristic. I use the term characteristic as I don't see it as a problem, especially when it allows for putting less stress on the engine when cruising down the autobahns at 190+. It also allows for power mods without having to change the final gear ratio. Clubsport - The grey 996tt had the tiptronic box and I don't believe it was an X50 hence the difference in measured top speeds. DAZ

Dazren - That's right my Slate Grey 996TT is standard 420hp, hence the speed difference in the limited space available. Was surprised that the 993 Turbo 4S didn't go faster than me given the HP diff, I suppose that's down to aerodynamics. Maurice - thanks for organising a memorable day.

What a fantastic day, thanks to all the organisers. Well, what can I say?, I got spanked. I am however Suprised the S wasnt quicker than a std 993tt, Rob (993tt running in opposite lane) and myself didnt post super fast speeds, Perhaps we should have tried for better entry speed onto the staight (co drivers please comment). Still I needed an Exocet to catch Daz, well done

did anyone else get any good video footage? I saw someone filming myself & Tifosi do standing start sprints towards the tail of the 747..

Looks like an awesome day out - Jeremy's 'mere' 159mph maybe further evidence that the one that kicked porka ass on that Jeremy Clarkson video (4.2 version too IIRC) had been breathed on a little as I am sure that was doing almost 170 after a standing mile? Best looking car by a long way {runs out of Porka forum quickly!!)

Were you doing circuits or straight forward 'Clarkson sprints' or both? I'm sure the Dazmobile will whoop everything if the former; it's that 'being able to push on beyond the fear envelope when the schpincter says "mais non!"' factor that only PSM can deliver (unless you're Domster, naturellement, )... Has anyone got some moving piccie action of the carnage?

Apparently it was a 4.2 with a decat, even if it was a 4.5 there wouldnt have been any power difference. The biggest factor here would have been the driver, on the vid the start for the cerb was incredibly good. I assume the driver wasnt just some scumbag journo and was probably quite good at slamming through the gears. I agree most of the old TVR press cars seem a little iffy, but having seen the press Evo6's spec I can honestly say TVR arent the only ones up to a few tricks. Even so, the real difference between the top few seem to be the cornering differences. In comparison to a porsche 996 - esp the four wheel drive varients, the standard cerbera is poor in conrering. If Teds guesses of 15-20mph difference on exit are to be believed then that means the cerb had similar acceleration to the 996TT's. But, more importantly OH MY GOD 15-20mph faster out of a corner?!!! im a TVR nut through and through but wow, porsches are certainly impresive! We really need to work out how to sort the cerberas problem of getting the power down out of corners... >> Edited by BCA on Monday 17th February 14:24

Chaps, Even allowing for the fact you may have been on the inside lane on entering the runway (we ran in pairs) or what line you took onto the runway assuming you were solo, I very much doubt you'd have had a 15-20mph discrepancy entering the straight. Even then this would have translated to a fraction of this by the time the timing beams were passed. A very slow entry only to the straight only resulted in 2mph differance at the timing beam for my 993C2. Notice that the 996C2 (2wd non turbo) managed a best of 158mph just 1mph shy of the Cerbera. Shame there was only one TreVoR there, so conclusive proof of Blackpool ponies being smaller than Stuttgart ones cannot be absolutely confirmed. Mark Jeremy - I am only pulling your leg here, honestly.

I think with a couple more runs I could have gone quicker. I reckon I could have gone into the entry bend about 5-10mph faster and the car was certainly still accelerating at the end. Am going to try to go back asap...

well from the passenger seat & using the GPS which measured bang on the same speed over the line as the laser timing beams so its pretty accurate) in JC's TreVoR was 83/86 mph exiting the bend and with Daz in the 996 it was over 100 from his speedo (which was only 4mph out at 177mph so again pretty accurate)its a pretty fair assumption to say more corner speed in the supercars = more top end speed through the traps. Also from on board ther feels little difference in TVR vs 996T accelleration- in fact the TVR feels quicker at the lower speeds but in the over 140mph area the 996T definatly felt a lot quicker.

Blimey you boys really were trying, I wasn't carrying anything like that sort of speed onto the straight. Perhaps that's why I failed to crack 150mph (Yes, Yes that was definately it Maurice ) I think we were all still accelerating through and past the timing zone. I saw 244kph (152mph) on the digital readout of the computer (which was pretty accurate when copmared to the timings) just past the trap area, I recorded an officially measured 149mph. I've seen 270kph on this readout "somewhere abroad" so we'll just have to find a longer runway to measure true VMAX. God only knows what Daz's car will run too.

Not a bad result when you consider the Cerberas REAL power. Certainly a 4.5RR would have put up more of a fight over 140mph and a car with a better suspension set up would have carried more into the straight to begin with. As I said before though, my god those porsches are going some in the corners!!!!

Would I be welcome in my inferior powered Westfi....Porsche SE to the next one??? I wanna see what a Turbo can REALLY do when unleashed, the one on work experience was good but limited on the public highway.

The distances required to hit top speeds, vary by type of car in my experience. We have run Skyline GTRs at Elvington runway on a couple of occassions (Elvington is longer than Bruntingthorpe). Cars with very high power and poor aerodynamics reach their max speeds within shorter distances than an aerodynamic car that has less power . The reason is simple, whilst the two cars might have an identical top speed, the more powerful car will have greater acceleration and therefore get to it's top speed sooner. This may lead to a difference in speeds at, say 1mile, but the same speed at say 3 miles (if it was available). By way of real data of speed vs distance, one of the GTRs that was run at Elvington did the following (using timing beams): 0.5miles 143mph 1.2miles 197mph 1.5miles 209mph The rate of acceleration was marginal at 1.5miles, so it had pretty much hit top speed. This is due to the high power/weight ratio (this car dynoes at 680bhp). Unfortunately I therefore believe that with the exception of certain high powered cars, it is impossible to hit true 'top speed' on any runway in the UK as most cars need 2 miles to reach absolute top speed. Best place is the Autobahns.........

.......or the 'oval' at MIRA

You won't get top speed at MIRA - too much tyre scrub. Worth at least 2% off what you'd get on an empty autobahn. Plus you have to be very brave!

The Oval at Mira is set for a 'hands off' speed of 150mph, ie no lateral acceleration. At over 175mph you're are really pushing high lateral g's and it gets hairy (from reports). I think the record there is only about 190mph from a McLaren F1. Speed is limited by cornering ability, not aero drag. The car is also on the bumpstops and very 'dodgy' to drive. Nardo in Italy is the best place, but it's damn far away and also is very expensive to hire. There are some other manufacturer test track that are also good, such the VW Test Track and the Mercedes Test Track. It's just much easier (and free) at 3am on the Autobahn.

Is there anywhere in the UK where you could reach top speed?

Hmmm...now let me see...

damm right there is ive hit top whack in pretty much every thing ive ever driven/riden and certainly every car or bike I've ever owned all in the UK. Speed Matters after all!!! & not much point in owning somthing that does 180 if you never let it stretch its legs

Came back from skiing in the new toy at the weekend and managed a GPS speed of 173MPH on the motorway near Dijon. Still had about 800rpm to the limiter I would never dream of doing that sort of speed in the UK though

C3...that is one amazing 993 you have there what mods have you done to it ?

Well before I owned it some kind person spent about 10k on Techart bits. (Suspension,spoilers,wheels,exhaust and induction) the power kit www.techart.de/Techart_Katalog%20993_Englisch/Power_kit%20TA%20093_1.htm gives it about 290BHP I was running BP's finest cheap french 98 ron fuel and it was about 1 degree above freezing. If the truck hadn't loomed on the horizon I reckon it would have reached the limiter.

Soundslike a good car,must be fun 7 makes the right noises..I wasn't trying to be too cheeky,but such speeds out of a '95 particularly pre varioram would involve a little help with gradiant. hope to catch up at one of the meetings.

C3... As Clubsport said "Not trying to be cheeky.." but I suspect either your rev counter or GPS are out of whack. My '95 will eventually pull the redline (6700rpm) in 6th and indicates about 280kph (175mph) while doing so. Using the best information available to me, including the 1995 model Owners Handbook our cars are geared for 25.2mph per 1000revs and the engine cutout is set to 6700rpm. This equates to 168.8mph at max revs, which is pretty close to the handbooks top speed claim of 168mph. If you have 800revs in hand at a GPS verified 173mph, your car is geared for 192mph, which is more like that of a Turbo4. I guess a '95 993 could theoretically reach 173mph allowing for tyre overgearing or "growth" but not with revs to spare. It's academic really as 168mph is plenty quick enough (Oh no it's not ) but it's worth understanding this and getting the rev counter checked out assuming that the GPS unit can't be wrong?

P-car: Begining to wish I hadn't mentioned it now but........ Looking at the handbook, the figures are for the standard 16" wheels with 17" as an option. And looking at the picture on your car (very pretty) you have 17"? My car is fitted with 18" turbo wheels, now I'm no expert and perhaps someone here can help, but perhaps this is the reason? Clubsport: Your right about the sound I have to open the sunroof everytime I go through a tunnel. My theory on getting top speed is to go for it uphill if it's clear and when you reach the crest if it's still clear keep the hammer down and hold on!!

Bigger wheels improve the handling but make lose nervosity and top speed... Therefore you may have the hell of a motor if with 18" wheels you reach a higher speed than indicated on the book with 17"...

Bigger wheels improve the handling but make lose nervosity and top speed... What does this mean? I no longer wish to comment on this thread. it wasn't a brag just a statement of fact!! I thankyou.

It means that the bigger the wheels, the lower the top speed. I don't mean you're over enthusiastic over the performance of your car, I am just impressed by the top speed!

Time to make Thom content: Just looking at your 944, Thom. I must say, I too share your enthusiasm for this model. Criminally overlooked - or looked down upon - by many but in truth, much like it's big brother 928, although for entirely different dynamic reasons, a genuine classic and a ridiculous bargain to boot. I've always liked the proportions of the 944, it's straightforwardness of design and interior, which has always felt and looked thoroughly purposeful, the overall size and weight encouraging seriously spirited driving; a genuine 'driver's tool,' as it were. Do you intend to keep this car, or will it make way for a TVR at some point? If so, do you not prefer the T350c to the Cerbera? And have you not considered the current interloper from Noble? DeR.

Check your e-mail What about you then? What kind of an upgrade would you think of after the TT?

Hi guys, it's saturday, the phones are quiet so I've got time to surf PH, Yippppeeeeeee!!! When people put larger alloys/wheels on cars eg speccing up from 17 to 18 inch, in most cases the larger wheel has a lower profile tyre to keep the rolling circumference of the tyre similar with the original fitment tyre. Therefore diameter of the alloy makes negligable difference to top speed. Where larger alloys/wheels can lead to a lower top speed is where wider tyres are put on the car, this extra width will lead to more air resistance and a larger contact with the road surface will lead to larger surface resistance. I'm no engineer but I doubt switching from say 265 to 285 on the rears would make more than two mph difference to top speed. On another note people have been saying the porsches were carrying 15/20 mph more out of the corner prior to the straight and this is what lead to a similar difference at the end of the runway. This is absolute bollocks. Increasing from 70 to 90mph takes a fraction of the distance it takes to increase from 150 to 170. Clearly next time we'll have to do do a few unauthorised standing starts during the lunchbreak, Are you up for it Jeremy? DAZ

Switching from 16" 245 rear to 17" 255 rear lead to a 944 Turbo losing some 10 mph in its top speed.

Oh and another thing. With C3's car having had a £10k Techart makeover it's not beyond comprehension that part of these funds involved changing the odd gear ratio or upgrading to the stronger turbo gearbox with the higher sixth ratio, to make full use of the 290bhp. I'd be more inclined to rely on a GPS Gismo than any car speedo at the sort of speeds being discussed. DAZ

Thom, I'm sorry but I can't understand how (rolling radius remaining the same) increasing the width of a tyre by 4% can lead to a loss of top speed in the magnitude of 6.7%. Especially when you add the resistance of the tyres to the overall air resistance of the entire vehicle, the effects of the tyre change should be negligable. Any engineers or physiscists want to try explaing this phenomena to me? I think I should have listened a bit more when I was at school. DAZ

Which is why I was querying the rev counter on C3's car. It is entirely possible that it has had a modified or even Turbo4 'box but it wouldn't warrant it with just 290bhp. Perhaps the previous owner intended to add a turbo or supercharged motor but didn't get around to it?

Hey Daz, I can't understand it as well actually! But I was in the car and saw it myself...

Porsche speedos generally seem to over read by up to 10%. Therefore the speed trap and GPS would be much more accurate. That's why the feds will allow you 10% + 2mph -I've stuck to that and haven't triggered a camera yet! Increasing the WIDTH of tyres will give you more grip in the corners, but added drag/friction and therefore a lower top speed. Also, turbo bodied 911's have more drag than a 'normal' 911, due to a greater frontal cross sectional area, which = greater drag. I understand that at Bruntingthorpe you guys also had a headwind component AND an uphill stretch on the runway. All of this will have an effect on speed. To make these top speeds realistic, one would, as they do for the land speed record, have to take the mean speed of two runs, one in either direction, within an hour of each other. So in that respect, given a 5mph headwind you could easily add 2-3mph to the figures quoted for a mean(and by that I mean average!) top speed. Melv

I noticed a few folks had suction video mounts at Bruntingthorpe, where can I purchase one? Paul P.S. any PHer's going to Oulton Park (RS day) on 22nd March

Paul. I have a suction mount, but I am currently experiencing problems with the curvature of my windscreen. I bought it from an english company base in Nottingham: www.b-hague.co.uk/Mounting%20Brackets.htm cheers DAZ

Thanks Daz, Its a local company for me, Ill pop in and try one. Need to go to 9m next week to sort out a minor misfire (plug lead I hope), while he's looking at the engine, we could have a play!!!! I will have my revenge Paul

Careful Paul. As the Custodian of a Turbo S, the last and most powerful factory aircooled turbo, originality must be maintained. DAZ

www.verysideways.com/live/pages/ph_bruntingthorpe.htm Help yourselves. What a top day. VS >>> Edited by verysideways on Saturday 15th February 19:26 >>> Edited by verysideways on Saturday 15th February 19:26