991 GT3 vs 997.1 GT3 on track - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I did a track day recently on the Silverstone GP circuit and had my first encounter with a 991 GT3 on track. Now before the trolls jump in and accuse me of discovering the limits of my driving talent I'd just like to say I have a cupboard full of trophies from racing including one from BTCC - therefore I have reasonable driving talent. On previous track days I have found little performance difference on track between my 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s or GT3 RS. A well driven gen 2 GT3 RS on michelins will slowly pull away from my pzero corsa clad 997.1, but not by much and my non-RS GT3 is quick down the straights without the drag from the rear wing of the RS. On the recent day at Silverstone, towards the end when the track was finally quiet, a 991 GT3 came past me and so I decided to try and hang on to it. I was really surprised at how quickly he pulled away on the straights and at Stowe corner the car was able to carry significantly more corner speed as my 997 slid around as I was clearly asking it to do more than it was capable of. Following the 991 in to Copse it looked really stable braking later than I could and clearly had better traction on the exit, and then really pulled away on the straight with better acceleration. After a lap it had pulled a reasonable gap and continued to pull away. I realise it has 65hp more that the 997.1, but there was a noticable difference to encounters I have had with 997.2 GT3 RSs. It looked very impressive and that was the first time I have been tempted to change my 997. Anyone on here driven a 991 GT3 on track and able to comment on whether the fun factor is also there with the additional pace?

And the 991 didn't end up on fire :-)

Cup2 tyres are very significantly quicker than corsas I am given to understand from friends who have used both. No real surprise the 991 gt3 is quicker though, newer platform, longer wheelbase, much more advanced electronics and better tyres.

Ive seen a 991 C4S be much quicker than 997.1 GT3 on track. Technology and all that

isaldiri said: No real surprise the 991 gt3 is quicker though, newer platform, longer wheelbase, much more advanced electronics and better tyres. Porsche would be hugely disappointed otherwise. PDK/RWS and the other development over 8 years years or so.

Callughan said: Ive seen a 991 C4S be much quicker than 997.1 GT3 on track. Technology and all that That is issue when a normal 991 laps faster than the top of the last gen GT3's A 911 turbo with cups would kill all GT3's round a larger track these days I bet, but the cars never get tested with cups other wise it would make other stuff look too slow. Cups 2's are making the laps times these days, every new record car has them. 991 GT3 was a cheap car for the lap time esp with cash back for most, still does nothing for me though, and I'll take a 458 special every day of the week.

mrdemon said: Callughan said: Ive seen a 991 C4S be much quicker than 997.1 GT3 on track. Technology and all that That is issue when a normal 991 laps faster than the top of the last gen GT3's A 911 turbo with cups would kill all GT3's round a larger track these days I bet, but the cars never get tested with cups other wise it would make other stuff look too slow. Cups 2's are making the laps times these days, every new record car has them. 991 GT3 was a cheap car for the lap time esp with cash back for most, still does nothing for me though, and I'll take a 458 special every day of the week. I attended the Porsche Boxster launch a while ago and the Porsche bod advised the audience during a presentation that the new Boxster S would lap the Ring quicker than a 996 GT3. Progress and all that so not surprising on the above. 997.1 GT3 is so pretty though :-)

One of my friends was in his 458 Speciale at the same TD, this was his first day in the car and he was still getting to grips with it - but my 9971.1 GT3 was quicker over a lap, now that is down to driver experience, but on the straights it didn't pull away any quicker than the 991 GT3. I dont want this to turn into a 458 vs 991 GT3 thread, the point of the thread was the jump in performance I noted compared to the delta between previous GT3 and GT3 RS models. Agree the tyres probably are a part of the improvement, along with all the other tech other's have mentioned already.

Interesting observations (and thread) OP I have no doubt the 991 GT3 is faster over a given lap than a 997.1 GT3. If you are chasing lap times and want to be the quickest then the 991 GT3 is the one to have. If, however, you enjoy the challenge of extracting as much speed from a car as you can and want to learn and improve as a driver then stick with the 997 - (though with a BTCC trophy in your cabinet I am not sure there is much left for you to learn!) For road driving, its a completely different kettle of fish!

F40GT346 said: ... my pzero corsa clad 997.1... Is your car standard or does it have a tweaked setup (geo/dampers/brakes/diff etc)?

braddo said: Is your car standard or does it have a tweaked setup (geo/dampers/brakes/diff etc)? Its lightly modified with RS29s all round, Alcons on the front and GT2 cooling ducts on the rear. It has a track day geo by JZM. I suppose the corsas stick out as a bit of a compromise, but I drive the car to the track and at places like Spa it is often wet and the Corsas do a reasonable job wet or dry on track and are pretty reasonable on the road. The car is non-club sport spec with Sunroof (lets in the noise on track :-) and seat belts in the back for the kids! It is a very enjoyable car to extract a good lap from on track, passengers are amazed at the braking performance and cornering grip (have seen 1.2g on the vbox). It could use more power - having driven a 4.0 RS that felt perfect with the extra 90 neddies. My mates 996GT3RS is similar in pace to my 997.1 GT3 which is in turn is not substantially slower than a 997.2GT3 RS - definitely a case of evolution. However, 991 GT3 turn-in looked incredible on track. Through longer corners (Copse, Stowe) it looked really planted and quick. Very impressive leap forward compared to previous increments. Anyone driven one on track yet?

Interesting, thanks. So far I just have the rear seatbelts. Some Alcons and tyres are likely next year however.

braddo said: Interesting, thanks. So far I just have the rear seatbelts. Some Alcons and tyres are likely next year however. For track days the Alcon /RS29 combination is fantastic, great braking power, they are lasting really well and I have not experienced any fade - although I do limit my runs as the tyres generally do start to overheat.

F40GT346 said: I did a track day recently on the Silverstone GP circuit and had my first encounter with a 991 GT3 on track. Now before the trolls jump in and accuse me of discovering the limits of my driving talent I'd just like to say I have a cupboard full of trophies from racing including one from BTCC - therefore I have reasonable driving talent. On previous track days I have found little performance difference on track between my 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s or GT3 RS. A well driven gen 2 GT3 RS on michelins will slowly pull away from my pzero corsa clad 997.1, but not by much and my non-RS GT3 is quick down the straights without the drag from the rear wing of the RS. On the recent day at Silverstone, towards the end when the track was finally quiet, a 991 GT3 came past me and so I decided to try and hang on to it. I was really surprised at how quickly he pulled away on the straights and at Stowe corner the car was able to carry significantly more corner speed as my 997 slid around as I was clearly asking it to do more than it was capable of. Following the 991 in to Copse it looked really stable braking later than I could and clearly had better traction on the exit, and then really pulled away on the straight with better acceleration. After a lap it had pulled a reasonable gap and continued to pull away. I realise it has 65hp more that the 997.1, but there was a noticable difference to encounters I have had with 997.2 GT3 RSs. It looked very impressive and that was the first time I have been tempted to change my 997. Anyone on here driven a 991 GT3 on track and able to comment on whether the fun factor is also there with the additional pace? Who was having the most fun ? Everything else is irrelevant.

Was that a rhetorical question or are you into reading minds ?? Who can say ?

ChrisW. said: Was that a rhetorical question or are you into reading minds ?? Who can say ? I'm assuming he means that although the 991 was quicker was the driver having as much fun as the 997 driver. It's a good question as well, as driving the 991 with it's automatic gearbox wouldn't appeal to everyone.

ChrisW. said: Was that a rhetorical question or are you into reading minds ?? Who can say ? I'm assuming he means that although the 991 was quicker was the driver having as much fun as the 997 driver. It's a good question as well, as driving the 991 with it's automatic gearbox wouldn't appeal to everyone.

I would concurr with the OP, the 991 is undeniably a faster car. It just depends if you want to change gear yourself or not. That alone is worth quite some time at most circuits, Cup2's wont close that gap

On a normal track like Donny how many times do you change up gears ? Each one at best saving you a 2/10th second 5 times? ESP with a manual GT3. Cups two are worth more than that a lap over street tyres :-) You change gear less than you think on track. Edited by mrdemon on Monday 6th October 20:53

mrdemon said: On a normal track like Donny how many times do you change up gears ? Each one at best saving you a 2/10th second 5 times? ESP with a manual GT3. Cups two are worth more than that a lap over street tyres :-) You change gear less than you think on track. Edited by mrdemon on Monday 6th October 20:53 At Silverstone, about 20 times if I don't block shift when I need to go down 2 gears... So not insignificant (but I still prefer shifting manually :-)

20 times !!! that's like watching a Fast and furious film ;-) I would say one would change up in a GT3 no more than 10 times at Silverstone.

mrdemon said: 20 times !!! that's like watching a Fast and furious film ;-) I would say one would change up in a GT3 no more than 10 times at Silverstone. Are you not including down shifts? Just looked at latest vids of Donny and I make it 12 gear changes a lap.

Cunno said: Are you not including down shifts? Just looked at latest vids of Donny and I make it 12 gear changes a lap. I have just gone through the gear shifts for Silverstone GP circuit and I count 18 if you count a block change as a single change (e.g. end of hangar straight, 5th down to 3rd). Silverstone GP has alot of corners and most need a gear change. A couple of the fast corners e.g. Copse are right at the top of 3rd and almost 4th. I have found that I use 3rd for corner entry but then need to shift during the exit phase of the corner. From experience of other twin clutch gearboxes, I think the PDK box could provide some benefit in these areas. Would also be interesting to see what gears a 991 GT3 would use since the 7 ratios are different. In my 997GT3 I use 2nd to 5th on a flying lap with most corners being 2nd or 3rd gear - hangar straight only requires 5th.

From my Motec data, the flat shift sequential on the 997 Cup is worth between 1 and 1.5 seconds over the 996 maunual shift - and i was flat shifting in the 996. Changing normally - ie fast but not flat shifting - the difference would be a lot greater. With the frankly rediculous 'ring time' obsession of road car manufacturers, the flat shift option is pretty much essential if they are going to compete.

Cunno said: Are you not including down shifts? Just looked at latest vids of Donny and I make it 12 gear changes a lap. Indeed - the downshifts are going to really help with a PDK - you can concentrate on the breaking and positioning the car and not so much on where your right foot is in between the gas and the break pedals...

On the downshift a decent driver will be quicker on manual heal and toe - especially in the big stops. That was the joy of the 997 cup box, you could still set the car up under heal and toe.

Steve Rance said: On the downshift a decent driver will be quicker on manual heal and toe - especially in the big stops. That was the joy of the 997 cup box, you could still set the car up under heal and toe. Interesting. How is it quicker on the downshift? Is it because you can vary the engine braking effect with heal & toe (i.e. not quite 100% rev matching)?

braddo said: Interesting. How is it quicker on the downshift? Is it because you can vary the engine braking effect with heal & toe (i.e. not quite 100% rev matching)? Partly, yes. One of the things I used it for was to add more rear bias. Also helps in the bigger stops without unsettling the car - providing you get it right. You can also use it to help rotate the car

Cunno said: Are you not including down shifts? Just looked at latest vids of Donny and I make it 12 gear changes a lap. nope as above a good driver and beat a down shift, but not an upshift. and no one wants to flat shift their own personal car. but as I said only about 5 or 6 up changes at Donny and about 10 at Silverstone on the full GP. My point was Cup 2'S over street tyres are worth more than a pdk box for a lap time.

anonymous said: [redacted] More corner speed is more excitement?

mrdemon said: Cunno said: Are you not including down shifts? Just looked at latest vids of Donny and I make it 12 gear changes a lap. nope as above a good driver and beat a down shift, but not an upshift. and no one wants to flat shift their own personal car. but as I said only about 5 or 6 up changes at Donny and about 10 at Silverstone on the full GP. My point was Cup 2'S over street tyres are worth more than a pdk box for a lap time. Any "race" compound tyre over a street tyre may be worth more time than the pdk although i am not totally convinced of that personally, seven ratios vs six, faultless automated execution etc. it would be an interesting comparison with the same driver. The OP was referring to Corsa's which are a "race" compound tyre, although those must be getting pretty old by now as they haven't made them for a while!

I've tracked a 991 GT3 for the first time last tuesday - whilst I don't think the car was set up properly it was still considerably faster than my 997 GT3 RS. On the one (fast) corner I cared to take notice the cornering speed was also up on my 997 if not massively - however there might be more to be had - as I've said I think there was something amiss set-up wise, as was with the brakes, by which I was frankly underwhelmed a bit (the car was a OPC Demonstrator and had most likely seen some abuse early on ist life..). All in all I think it is a good car to be in on the track, and whilst I'm firmly in the "manual camp", the PDK works brilliantly and is actually good fun - and at the time I didn't think it takes too much away from me. When running up to cars in front on the uphill sections, I could visually see the effect of PDK vs. manual, the 991 gaining additional meters on the other cars whenever they changed gear - still like my manual but over a lap it definately helps you lap time wise.

ttdan said: Any "race" compound tyre over a street tyre may be worth more time than the pdk although i am not totally convinced of that personally, seven ratios vs six, faultless automated execution etc. it would be an interesting comparison with the same driver. The OP was referring to Corsa's which are a "race" compound tyre, although those must be getting pretty old by now as they haven't made them for a while! depends how you drive I guess, not much time lost with manual here on a Sypder :-) and ofcourse 300% more fun to drive the car, not let the car drive you. we own cars for fun don't we ? we all know the 991 GT3 laps fast, so what !! does that make all other GT3's now pointless and slow, I guess in 2015 there will be a new breed of track day winners. http://youtu.be/0vNeLjB9IXA?list=UUL-Rm-7D8xHVNA8A... Edited by mrdemon on Wednesday 8th October 12:56

mrdemon said: depends how you drive I guess, not much time lost with manual here on a Sypder :-) and ofcourse 300% more fun to drive the car, not let the car drive you. we own cars for fun don't we ? we all know the 991 GT3 laps fast, so what !! does that make all other GT3's now pointless and slow, I guess in 2015 there will be a new breed of track day winners. http://youtu.be/0vNeLjB9IXA?list=UUL-Rm-7D8xHVNA8A... Edited by mrdemon on Wednesday 8th October 12:56

nice, but we all know there are 2 camps, manual drivers and PDK drivers, ok there is a 3rd camp track day winners, and there seem to be many of those on here. what's your point ? I like driving a Manual car and I get enjoyment from it. I have tried many PDK, DSG, DCT car and frankly they are quite dull.

The point of the thread was to ask any 991 GT3 owners who have tracked their cars to comment on how they find the experience. My original post noted that the 991 GT3 was notably quicker on track and I am keen to hear views from those with a 991 GT3 and preferably those who have experience of the 991 and other GT3 variants to comment. There seems to be a default view that because the 991 has an auto box and is faster it must be less fun. It is definetly a personal choice and there are pros and cons for both. However, I have noticed that my perceived fun in a car on track is diminished by other cars going past me - perhaps that is because at heart I am racer, but given the number of people buying faster, grippiers more specialist track cars, I am probably not alone. On a recent trip to Spa one of my mates took his GT86. The balance was great, it moved around alot on its narrow fuel saver tyres etc but I have not seen many on track days and I think this is because they are slow - the fun of slithering the car on its tip toes through a bend is diminished when a GT3 flies past you and dissappears. Anyway back to the original point of the thread - based on experience is a 991 GT3 on track better, worse or about the same as previous GT3s?

better if you want to go faster, not sure what else you need to know.

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lxRvBPiKKQA/T8ztnfacTRI/AAAAAAAAHe8/g0jiw7iQ1Yg/s1600/Bell+2.jpg http://hungryshark.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/lt.png

One conclusion we could draw from this is that there aren't many pistonheads using their 991 GT3s on track! Was expecting a few more owners to respond to this with their experience of the 991 on track. Must admit given the engine issues I am not sure I would feel comfortable thrashing it on a track day - do you think that will ignite a few posts?

F40GT346 said: I did a track day recently on the Silverstone GP circuit and had my first encounter with a 991 GT3 on track. Now before the trolls jump in and accuse me of discovering the limits of my driving talent I'd just like to say I have a cupboard full of trophies from racing including one from BTCC - therefore I have reasonable driving talent. On previous track days I have found little performance difference on track between my 997.1 and 997.2 GT3s or GT3 RS. A well driven gen 2 GT3 RS on michelins will slowly pull away from my pzero corsa clad 997.1, but not by much and my non-RS GT3 is quick down the straights without the drag from the rear wing of the RS. On the recent day at Silverstone, towards the end when the track was finally quiet, a 991 GT3 came past me and so I decided to try and hang on to it. I was really surprised at how quickly he pulled away on the straights and at Stowe corner the car was able to carry significantly more corner speed as my 997 slid around as I was clearly asking it to do more than it was capable of. Following the 991 in to Copse it looked really stable braking later than I could and clearly had better traction on the exit, and then really pulled away on the straight with better acceleration. After a lap it had pulled a reasonable gap and continued to pull away. I realise it has 65hp more that the 997.1, but there was a noticable difference to encounters I have had with 997.2 GT3 RSs. It looked very impressive and that was the first time I have been tempted to change my 997. Anyone on here driven a 991 GT3 on track and able to comment on whether the fun factor is also there with the additional pace? Hi , I think it was me that went past you. From memory it was a particularly well driven black 997.1 you were in and to be honest I was having to work hard to pull away like I did. To answer your question yes for sure the fun factor is well and truly there with the additional pace, how can 9000rpm not be fun?! Although the 991GT3 is the most forgiving GT3 series on track you still have to manage weight transfer and drive it like you have to drive a 911 to extract the best from it. Yes, 996/997 generations will always feel more involving with the lovely manual shifts (I do miss heel and towing) and I do regret selling my 997.2RS3.8 a year ago when this 991GT3 arrived (also due to the price of the things now, but thats another story) but the 991 really has moved the game on and on track I must say it is usually the quickest thing with number plates going round. Having owned previous generation GT3's the main difference is the almost complete lack of understeer. The front end is so sharp and turns in so well it really does inspire you with confidence to carry extra speed into and through corners, the rear wheel steer is also a huge benefit (more felt on track than road) and you can feel it helping you get the car turned in quicker so you can also get back on the power sooner. It's also very stable under braking and high speed directional changes. On track the pdk again comes into its own and the lightning gear changes and the ability to shift down whilst braking and turning in quickly makes you forget about the enjoyment you get from changing gears manually. To sum up I'd say it's still hugely enjoyable whilst being significantly quicker than even 997.2 RS 3.8's which unless they are being driven by Calum Lockie on Hoosiers just get blatted out the way and simply disappear out of sight after a lap or two. Having said that my 991 Turbo S also blats 997.2RSs out the way and having taken them both to Silverstone without strapping a vbox on i couldn't tell you for sure whats quicker although the GT3 is the more enjoyable. Hope this answers your question and the next time you are at Silverstone drop me a line we'll have a few laps together!

Kav1 said: Hi , I think it was me that went past you. From memory it was a particularly well driven black 997.1 you were in and to be honest I was having to work hard to pull away like I did. To answer your question yes for sure the fun factor is well and truly there with the additional pace, how can 9000rpm not be fun?! Although the 991GT3 is the most forgiving GT3 series on track you still have to manage weight transfer and drive it like you have to drive a 911 to extract the best from it. Yes, 996/997 generations will always feel more involving with the lovely manual shifts (I do miss heel and towing) and I do regret selling my 997.2RS3.8 a year ago when this 991GT3 arrived (also due to the price of the things now, but thats another story) but the 991 really has moved the game on and on track I must say it is usually the quickest thing with number plates going round. Having owned previous generation GT3's the main difference is the almost complete lack of understeer. The front end is so sharp and turns in so well it really does inspire you with confidence to carry extra speed into and through corners, the rear wheel steer is also a huge benefit (more felt on track than road) and you can feel it helping you get the car turned in quicker so you can also get back on the power sooner. It's also very stable under braking and high speed directional changes. On track the pdk again comes into its own and the lightning gear changes and the ability to shift down whilst braking and turning in quickly makes you forget about the enjoyment you get from changing gears manually. To sum up I'd say it's still hugely enjoyable whilst being significantly quicker than even 997.2 RS 3.8's which unless they are being driven by Calum Lockie on Hoosiers just get blatted out the way and simply disappear out of sight after a lap or two. Having said that my 991 Turbo S also blats 997.2RSs out the way and having taken them both to Silverstone without strapping a vbox on i couldn't tell you for sure whats quicker although the GT3 is the more enjoyable. Hope this answers your question and the next time you are at Silverstone drop me a line we'll have a few laps together! Thanks for the post Kavi, indeed my GT3 is black! Interesting to read your comments on the handling traits of the 991 GT3 which supports my observations of the cars handling - I could see the rear moving on the way in to the corners and also how early you were able to get power on for the exits. Noticed you also have a 458 Speciale - have you tried that on track yet and how does it compare? My mate had the black Speciale at Silverstone however it is brand new and he was quite cautious, but I did notice that it didnt pull away from me on the straights like your 991 GT3 did.

F40GT346 said: Kav1 said: Hi , I think it was me that went past you. From memory it was a particularly well driven black 997.1 you were in and to be honest I was having to work hard to pull away like I did. To answer your question yes for sure the fun factor is well and truly there with the additional pace, how can 9000rpm not be fun?! Although the 991GT3 is the most forgiving GT3 series on track you still have to manage weight transfer and drive it like you have to drive a 911 to extract the best from it. Yes, 996/997 generations will always feel more involving with the lovely manual shifts (I do miss heel and towing) and I do regret selling my 997.2RS3.8 a year ago when this 991GT3 arrived (also due to the price of the things now, but thats another story) but the 991 really has moved the game on and on track I must say it is usually the quickest thing with number plates going round. Having owned previous generation GT3's the main difference is the almost complete lack of understeer. The front end is so sharp and turns in so well it really does inspire you with confidence to carry extra speed into and through corners, the rear wheel steer is also a huge benefit (more felt on track than road) and you can feel it helping you get the car turned in quicker so you can also get back on the power sooner. It's also very stable under braking and high speed directional changes. On track the pdk again comes into its own and the lightning gear changes and the ability to shift down whilst braking and turning in quickly makes you forget about the enjoyment you get from changing gears manually. To sum up I'd say it's still hugely enjoyable whilst being significantly quicker than even 997.2 RS 3.8's which unless they are being driven by Calum Lockie on Hoosiers just get blatted out the way and simply disappear out of sight after a lap or two. Having said that my 991 Turbo S also blats 997.2RSs out the way and having taken them both to Silverstone without strapping a vbox on i couldn't tell you for sure whats quicker although the GT3 is the more enjoyable. Hope this answers your question and the next time you are at Silverstone drop me a line we'll have a few laps together! Thanks for the post Kavi, indeed my GT3 is black! Interesting to read your comments on the handling traits of the 991 GT3 which supports my observations of the cars handling - I could see the rear moving on the way in to the corners and also how early you were able to get power on for the exits. Noticed you also have a 458 Speciale - have you tried that on track yet and how does it compare? My mate had the black Speciale at Silverstone however it is brand new and he was quite cautious, but I did notice that it didnt pull away from me on the straights like your 991 GT3 did. Speciale is a totally different feel to GT3 and around Silverstone doubt would be any quicker on a flying lap. Speciale feels as it is designed to slide around in order to make fast progress and that sometimes can take some of your confidence away into really fast corners/directional changes. You have to spend a lot of time with it to understand how to work the car but once you do it really is an exhilarating drive as you slide out of corners with the electronics making you feel like Fernando Alonso! It's definitely faster than the 991 in a straight line (Hanger straight 165mph vs 157mph) and that v8 is epic but for me the extra stability the 991 offers means I can lean on it more, trust it more and ultimately drive it faster and with more confidence than I would the speciale. I think my driving style just suits the Porsche better , coupled with the fact that the Speciale is much more rawer and uncomfortable on the motorway drive home the 991 is the one out the 2 that I would most recommend for track days . Both awesome cars and money no object maybe the Speciale would just have the edge with either car if you are lucky enough to buy you can't go wrong.

OP: Very helpful observations. Thanks.