Would you pay extra for a car with Hartech enginge rebuild? - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I'm thinking of selling my 2002 996 C4S. 72,000 miles. Full service history with OPC / recognised indies. The history confirms that the car had a full engine rebuild by Hartech around 20,000 miles ago. New pistons, piston liners, uprated IMS, low temp thermostat. All backed up by invoices and a subsequent run in service too. Cost for the work is in the region of £8k. Would this work merely make the car more saleable against other similar vehicles or would it warrant a couple of grand uplift in price for the peace if mind?

Hi IMHO it must be worth 2k more at least surely. Best of luck Berni

Is this work you have done or a previous owner?

I wouldn't buy the car in the first place if Hartech hadn't twirled their spanners around the oily bits. As to how much of a premium this attracts; that is anyone's guess. In my case I paid around £2500 more for the privilege.

KungFuPanda said: I'm thinking of selling my 2002 996 C4S. 72,000 miles. Full service history with OPC / recognised indies. The history confirms that the car had a full engine rebuild by Hartech around 20,000 miles ago. New pistons, piston liners, uprated IMS, low temp thermostat. All backed up by invoices and a subsequent run in service too. Cost for the work is in the region of £8k. Would this work merely make the car more saleable against other similar vehicles or would it warrant a couple of grand uplift in price for the peace if mind? Message me when you've got it up for sale

Rick101 said: Is this work you have done or a previous owner? From the sound of it "The history confirms that the car had a full engine rebuild by Hartech around 20,000 miles ago." I'd say it was the previous owner. Why would it matter?

Just had a look at the invoices last night. It was three years and 6,000 miles ago. legzr1, let me message you when I get in front of a laptop and off my phone.

Yes.

Richie200 said: I wouldn't buy the car in the first place if Hartech hadn't twirled their spanners around the oily bits . As to how much of a premium this attracts; that is anyone's guess. In my case I paid around £2500 more for the privilege. +1

KungFuPanda said: Just had a look at the invoices last night. It was three years and 6,000 miles ago. legzr1, let me message you when I get in front of a laptop and off my phone. Only 6000 miles in 3 years!!! No wonder you are selling!!!

I've only had the car for 6 months and done 1200 miles in it!

g7jhp said: Rick101 said: Is this work you have done or a previous owner? From the sound of it "The history confirms that the car had a full engine rebuild by Hartech around 20,000 miles ago." I'd say it was the previous owner. Why would it matter? I'd put a higher value on it if the current owner had spent that money and has an ongoing relationship with Hartech. They should be able to explain fully what work it's had done and the reasons behind it. Still a good motor if it's had the work previously, just not as much information and no surety how it's been treated since unless there is also additional service history. I always try to get a good gauge of previous owners. I put quite a lot of weight on how a car has previously been treated. You only need one bad one that hammers the car for a year to ruin what could be a minter.

Rick101 said: g7jhp said: Rick101 said: Is this work you have done or a previous owner? From the sound of it "The history confirms that the car had a full engine rebuild by Hartech around 20,000 miles ago." I'd say it was the previous owner. Why would it matter? I'd put a higher value on it if the current owner had spent that money and has an ongoing relationship with Hartech. They should be able to explain fully what work it's had done and the reasons behind it. Still a good motor if it's had the work previously, just not as much information and no surety how it's been treated since unless there is also additional service history. I always try to get a good gauge of previous owners. I put quite a lot of weight on how a car has previously been treated. You only need one bad one that hammers the car for a year to ruin what could be a minter. Fair enough. Wouldn't you get Hartech to confirm the work and then check the car over so they'd be happy to cover it in future.

Anyone in the know would definitely pay a premium, I know I would. I think in a few years time the only 996/997 gen1 cars left will be the ones with the Nikasil liners!

No. I wouldn't buy one. Gen 2 is the only way to go ...

Yes I would. I've even searched for cars that mention hartech in the ad. But whenever I find any they are always Tiptronic. Are tips more likely to blow up? Is your car a tip? I would only buy an m96 that had hartech but would never buy a tip so they cancelled each other out.

98% of the potential punters with that 'lower end' kind of money to spend will not have heard of Hartech. I doubt it will command much more than a standard 'not rebuilt' one. The people who would enquire about it would possibly research why it's had a rebuild and then would realise it's a common problem. So would then save their money to buy something else.

A993LAD said: Yes I would. I've even searched for cars that mention hartech in the ad. But whenever I find any they are always Tiptronic. Are tips more likely to blow up? Is your car a tip? I would only buy an m96 that had hartech but would never buy a tip so they cancelled each other out. There's a theory that the tips are more susceptible to bore scoring as they often pull away in second... as with all of this stuff its anecdotal without any concrete numbers to back up / validate...

Storm996 said: 98% of the potential punters with that 'lower end' kind of money to spend will not have heard of Hartech. I don't understand why people looking for 'lower end' cars would be less inclined to have made themselves knowledgeable about the models. I would have thought they would be more likely to do their research.

ChrisW. said: Gen 2 is the only way to go ... Kind of missing the point there. The Gen 2 is obviously more expensive and so not comparable for people with a Gen 1 budget. A good rebuilt Gen 1 engine, with a premium most probably would be.

Are talking about 996 or 997 here? Of course a Gen 2 997 is relatively bulletproof when compared against a Gen 1 or a 996 but the prices are closer to £30k than £20k.

This CS appears not to be commanding a premium. http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

Well, I sold mine recently which was aided by the rebuild. Whether it commanded a premium is hard to tell as prices for (auto) cabs are all over the show. If it didn't hugely change the price it certainly did make the care more "sellable" but again, it's to a small audience that know about the engine issues and are looking for that particular work to have been done. I'd imagine it's model specific so whilst it was "useful" on my C4 Tip Cab it may well have commanded a decent percentage increase on a more sports orientated model? Ps - hi Richard , am missing the car now and feeling frustrated with the roads over here too - hope all is well in sunny Germany!

I should add that the invoice from Hartech didn't mention the car reg or VIN number and for mine it was lucky it could be verified by tallying up against some other bills. This was fortunate as I queried it with them to see if they could confirm the job reference on their form tallied up to my car. Considering how verbose they are on the PH forums I was surprised by the rather curt reply of "I don’t know which car it relates to I’m afraid" Hopefully they've changed their admin practices in the last couple of years but this could result in issues proving your car actually has been worked on.

anonymous said: [redacted] ^^This. Although a quick google might lead mass-market buyers to discover Hartech, but this will still be the minority of buyers

mikeyr said: Well, I sold mine recently which was aided by the rebuild. Whether it commanded a premium is hard to tell as prices for (auto) cabs are all over the show. If it didn't hugely change the price it certainly did make the care more "sellable" but again, it's to a small audience that know about the engine issues and are looking for that particular work to have been done. I'd imagine it's model specific so whilst it was "useful" on my C4 Tip Cab it may well have commanded a decent percentage increase on a more sports orientated model? Ps - hi Richard , am missing the car now and feeling frustrated with the roads over here too - hope all is well in sunny Germany! Glad the sale went smoothly for you and relatively quickly. I drove the same route I took you on the other day, tunnels obviously needed a double seeing to

mikeyr said: I should add that the invoice from Hartech didn't mention the car reg or VIN number and for mine it was lucky it could be verified by tallying up against some other bills. This was fortunate as I queried it with them to see if they could confirm the job reference on their form tallied up to my car. Considering how verbose they are on the PH forums I was surprised by the rather curt reply of "I don’t know which car it relates to I’m afraid" Hopefully they've changed their admin practices in the last couple of years but this could result in issues proving your car actually has been worked on. The work we carried out was obviously only to the engine and not to the car itself. There are several considerations here: When we re-build an engine and fit it to a car ourselves we obviously record it against the specific car but about half the re-builds we carry out are for other garages/members of the public who fit them themselves (as well as receiving bare cylinder blocks, heads & short motors for work). In these cases we have no proof of which particular vehicle they end up fitted to so our records are based on the facts we know which are the customer name and job number as well as the technical specifics to the job. Secondly, as well as data protection considerations we respect customer confidentiality and will not discuss someone's private matters with all and sundry. There are correct channels to follow and if we are asked to discuss someone's private information we need their permission. If someone has an invoice from car documents we are happy to confirm its validity if they email it through to us (or they can read it out over the phone whilst we verify it's contents from what we can see on screen). We're also happy to confirm service book stamps etc. This approach is professional and considerate and we try our my best to be as helpful as we can within these parameters. If anyone would like me to verify details I suggest that you obtain a copy of the invoice and forward it to me at [email removed] and I can confirm it's genuine or otherwise. If I have permission from our customer (the party we invoiced) I will happily discuss the content in detail. If I do not have these I'm afraid I won't be able to help. If we only re-built the engine or carried out work to part of it I'm afraid we won't be able to say which car it went into (if we didn't physically fit it ourselves we cannot be 100% certain where it ended up) - this is the responsibility of the installer who should be able to confirm which vehicle they fitted it to and give details as they see fit for their part of the job. I can pad out the response to be less "curt" (and I'm sure it wasn't left at just this as it's not my style) but I'm afraid the basic response will be along the lines of "I don’t know which car it relates to I’m afraid" for the aforementioned reasons. This isn't meant to be unhelpful but is a statement of fact. It appears that you ended up with the information you needed by tallying records up so I don't really see the problem anyway. As regards our records, each job is fully documented internally with lengthy schedules recording component conditions, vital measurements, essential work required, strong recommendations and milder recommendations made, action agreed, recommendations declined, parts fitted and work carried out (with 2 separate systems running along side each other then integrating as a fail safe) with technician details every step of the way. We re-build up to 5 engines a week and as such need and have proper systems to ensure it goes smoothly. Yes, this is quite a verbose response but you can hopefully see another angle and reasons for our position. All the best and enjoy your next car. Grant Edited by hartech on Monday 13th October 22:00

Totally understandable Grant - thanks for the response and it'll act as an appropriate reference for anyone in the future that has similar concerns. Guess the key message here for buyers to be vigilant and keep hold of paperwork!

Always makes an interesting topic and I'm only glad I live close to Hartech. I probably wouldn't have a 996 if they didn't offer the cover they do as it gives me the confidence that major engine work would be covered. I bought locally and have them do a bore inspection which turned out fine. I then got stuck in and worked through a list of the minor things they found that would prevent it from being accepted onto their lifetime scheme which you can see here: http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=87540 They then carried out the Gold service, fixed a few more things (a brake pipe, a track rod end etc.) and then accepted it on to the plan. It cost me around £1500 and labour investment in the car to sort it so I would seek to recoup that or some of it on sale. At that point I breathed a sigh of relief and could start enjoying the car. Now if I get a major engine issue such as scoring or IMS then I know roughly the max it will cost for me to get a well sorted engine. I factored buying a cheaper car (i.e. cheaper than a 997) into my overall budget such that if I have to find day £2k for parts for an engine build I would still end up with a pretty nice car (£65K? when new!) to keep with an upgraded engine in terms of reliability. In terms or resale then I think it just makes the buyer more confident in the first instance but could allow the seller to make the asking price a littler stronger and I also agree with the view about checking the OCD levels of the seller - I would like to think of myself as a "centre caps all the right way" sort of guy for example In terms of work done, then it is clearly important to maintain perfect documentation and a perfect set of Hartech documentation probably can't be bettered. Oh and yeah sorry to say that my C4 is also a Tiptronic, but that's what I wanted Overall I feel 996s will become more desirable and their prices will start to creep up. I don't think it will be regarded as the unloved one at all. Each generation of car seems to have it's following and it definitely is a 911. I swapped out of a 993 before and the moment I drove the 996 I knew I would never go back to an earlier car. Lee

JasonRIx said: Kind of missing the point there. The Gen 2 is obviously more expensive and so not comparable for people with a Gen 1 budget. A good rebuilt Gen 1 engine, with a premium most probably would be. Not if the Gen1 engine self destructs -- sorry. Buy in full knowledge of the risk and take your chance. Hartech engines also need rebuilds, but in my view they are almost certainly a better bet than a standard new replacement engine. So let's ask the question another way round. How much less expensive is a Gen 1 car with a Hartech rebuild that a Gen 2 car which will almost certainly not require any engine rebuild ? I am not spoiling for an argument, just check out the available information ...

ChrisW. said: Not if the Gen1 engine self destructs -- sorry. . But it wouldn't self destruct if it had had a rebuild. And, unlike a gen 2 car, it would be affordable to someone looking for a gen 1 car. Albeit with a slight premium. ChrisW. said: So let's ask the question another way round. How much less expensive is a Gen 1 car with a Hartech rebuild that a Gen 2 car which will almost certainly not require any engine rebuild ? I am not spoiling for an argument, just check out the available information ... Well, quite a lot less I would say judging by the figures for used cars. Look, all I'm saying is that if you can't afford a gen2 car then you can't afford it. It doesn't matter how much good value you can get from it, that's irrelevant, because... you can't afford it. On the other hand you most probably can afford a rebuilt gen 1 car as it's only a bit more than a normal gen 1 car and you can have peace of mind with it. I'd definitely pay a premium for a gen 1 car. People have said that most people won't know the value of it but the fact that some do mean that those people in the know would be willing to pay more. The others would exclude themselves from the market but those who would still be interested in it would compete to buy it. It's like saying, 'What's the point in buying a Porsche/Ferrari when most people buy Fords/Vw's'. Well, there may be only a minority of people who buy those Porsches and Ferraris but there are enough of them to make the price what it is to buy one.

ChrisW. said: Hartech engines also need rebuilds, but in my view they are almost certainly a better bet than a standard new replacement engine.

I think a good extensive detailed hartech rebuild would command a reasonable premium. Nowhere near the cost of a rebuild but I would certainly pay a grand or two extra for a 997/996 with one. I think there are enough people on forums who are up on the issues to manage the premium. When a good car comes up for sale that has had a hartech rebuild it doesn't usually take long to find a new owner, also hartech themselves always seem to be able to sell pretty quickly any cars they have for sale that they have just done a rebuild to. So yes a premium, what exactly that premium is, is difficult to say!

anonymous said: [redacted] I wasn't talking about a 996. As you say, they have their own particular reasons for being worth less than other models. I think you're getting confused when you say 'people competing to pay a premium for it'. I wasn't talking about en 'ebay' style auction with people outbidding one another for the opportunity to buy it. Simply that the seller could hold out for a sale to someone who would pay a premium (say a grand or two) for what they know is a much more reliable car. If I would do that there are others who would too. Secondly, I wasn't saying that I expect there to that much of a premium selling my car (which has had a Hartech rebuild). Just that if I was buying a car I would be prepared to pay a premium for one that had had a rebuild. I'm not worried about 'fanciful' pricing on what my car is worth, as I have no intention of selling it. I was just making the point that people in the know would be willing to pay a bit more for a 997.1 with Nikasil liners. Pretty uncontroversial really.

anonymous said: [redacted] anonymous said: [redacted] So, bore issues on the 996.1 (3.4) - a problem or not do you think?

anonymous said: [redacted] I made the post- I paid approx £500 more not £500 less than the rebuild cost....let's be sensible here though. Sellers decide to sell for all sorts of reasons- wife giving major earache, too many toys so one has to go, kids goi g to university etc etc. If you can catch the right car with good provenance, with rebuild and the selker needs to sell- happy days, you've hit the 996 jackpot. My post was in response to the qu'can you buy a decent 996 for 12k or less?'...but I do think the rebuilt 996s will command more, not huge amounts, but more. Btw, of all the Porsche cars I've owned, I habe never sold on to a non enthusiast. Why would you? I once had an ordibary punter view a 993 I was selling but after 5 mins I got bored and sent him packing.

anonymous said: [redacted] Wow. You seem to have got yourself very confused over some very simple concepts. The answer to the original question 'Would you pay extra for a car with a Hartech engine rebuild' is a yes from me and many others. If a certain amount of people are willing to pay more for something, then whether you or me like it or not, then the price of that will go up. Maybe a little or a lot depending on how many people are willing to pay more. It's just supply and demand. We are forgetting one other factor in all this and that is the number of cars that will simply be scrapped when these big engine problems occur as the cost of fixing them will not go down but the value of the cars will. When there are fewer of these models on the road that too will have the effect on prices of these cars. Again, we're just talking about supply and demand.

anonymous said: [redacted] I did say that people would be competing to buy a more desirable product. I said it on every post I made. I haven't changed my view. Reading is obviously not your strong suit. anonymous said: [redacted] Anyone in command of simple thinking skills would know that there is no way of knowing exactly what a Hartech rebuilt car would be worth if it didn't have a rebuilt engine and vice versa. All we can do, at least most of us, is logically work out what would be most likely based on facts. anonymous said: [redacted] Er.. I thought we all agreed that there wasn't that much of a premium, at least relative to the cost of the rebuilt. For the hundredth time, there are people who would pay a premium for such a car. If they chose to buy such a car they would have 'outbid' someone else who wouldn't pay a premium for it. Do try and keep up.

So the straight answer is yes, but it would appear not much. The trouble is that nobody believes that the Gen 1 engines will go pop, until they do. And then yes, it potentially writes the car off. And then people say that they can only afford a Gen 1 ...

anonymous said: [redacted] No offence mate, but who on earth would collect evidence of what 996s sell for if he believes he would pay more, then that Shirley answers the question. Some people would pay more Anyway, anyone noticed how few 996s are up for sale these days compared to a few years ago? Wonder what's causing that ? Oh, and what year was the sweet spot for 996.1s again? Wasn't there a couple of years that had a decent ism bearing fitted?

Are scored bores that much of an issue on early 996s? I thought it was more a problem with the 997 3.8s and 981 3.4s for some reason?

FWIW, when/if I sell my 996, I'm certainly hoping that the Hartech moniker assists both the sale, and price!!

If two 996's were for sale one with and one without Hartech warranty I'd buy the former but not for any premium, I think it just makes a 996 easier to sell.

Tony 1234 said: If two 996's were for sale one with and one without Hartech warranty I'd buy the former but not for any premium, I think it just makes a 996 easier to sell. Correct Tony, and if that situation happened more widely then the price of the non-Hartech engines would go down relative to the Hartech engine.

anonymous said: [redacted] That's not what was said. Everyone following this thread will be in no doubt about the points made. I don't believe that you are as stupid as you are pretending to be and given that you are a renowned ------- on these forums I won't waste any more time. Suffice to say for anyone else interested that there is extra value in a rebuild with Nikasil lined cylinders. At least two independents that I know have said that they factor a modest premium into their buying costs (no doubt because they know there is much less chance of engine trouble that they will be liable for) and private buyers will often find it easier to sell their car, and get a better price if they have a Hartech rebuild - more adverts are listing a Hartech rebuild as a feature. These are facts. Try and come to terms with them. Edited by JasonRIx on Saturday 18th October 17:57 Edited: On reflection I shouldn't have called anyone a 'b-----d'. Edited by JasonRIx on Sunday 19th October 09:59