993 or Cerbera or P1 or Evo - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

A naturally aspirated 993 isn't going to be faster than a Evo or STi type vehicle necessarily. Chances are in a straight line the jap turbo stuff will be quicker up to legal speeds at least. The thing is, i dind't buy my car to race the 4wd/turbo/jap/nutter crew. I appreciate those cars for their pace and usability, but they don't give me the same sort of driving pleasure as my 993 C4S. Getting it "right" in a 911 is a phenomenal experience, something to do with stringing together a series of curves, practising slow-in fast-out, feeling the tail tuck in and shove you out of the corner like the car just wants to go faster. I think i'm a reasonable driver but i get so much pleasure from trying to drive the car as it WANTS to be driven, smoothly and quickly and with precision. I've chased an Evo VII around a wet Castle Combe and there was nothing between us, the difference is the 993 was balletic whilst the Evo was brutal. I don't know if that helps your decision, but i do think there two distinct schools here... the air-cooled 911 perfectionists and the effective and efficient Scooby/Evo/Skyline crowd. On that note, have you driven a clean R33 Skyline GTR? If you like your Scooby you'll probably love one of those... It's a hard life choosing between all these great cars isn't it? VS

...in that case, the Cerbie should be ruled out on ALL those counts. I'm not having a dig at TVR, but of your list - that's the one most likely to break down and in the event of a crash, you've only got a fibreglass shell around you. Do you want to risk your family in that way? The Pistonheads community recently lost a valued member to a car crash (Harrigan) - I can't help feeling sometimes that he may not have lost his life if he hadn't been in a TVR.

I thought the Cerbera was the safest TVR shell structuraly with its integrated roll cage ?

Harrigan was driving a Chimaera which do not have the same protection as a Cerbera, if I remember correctly. However, out of respect for Harrigan and for legal reasons, we should keep speculation to a minimum and off forum. That said, it is beyond dispute that some TVRs have limited crash protection. There are images in the public domain showing completely flattened Griffiths after a roll, I myself have flexed the A-pillar of a wedge with one finger, and seats have been bolted straight to fibreglass in the past. I believe that TVRs of a more modern vintage may be safer, but I would check this out. Remember that glassfibre is actually very good at absorbing impact energy. I would be more concerned about roll overs than impacts in older open top models. Regarding the original choice, I would suggest that you could just about get a LHD 993 Turbo for 30k, or just over. This will do all you require. The standard 993s are great, but haven't got the outright grunt.

...I believe that's true - however, if I had a wife and family I'd rather them be surrounded by Steel/Aluminium which doesn't disintegrate following big impacts. Also, the inherent tendency for TVR's to lose their back ends make it unsuitable for school transportation, IMHO. >> Edited by argonaut on Tuesday 18th February 10:01

...agreed on both counts.

Have you seen any that cheap Dom ?

Seems low to me also...thing is i really do not beleive there is such a thing as a cheap Porsche. Good lhd 993TT seem to be late £30's- as high as early £40's in some cases..rhd seem to start at low £40's - mid £50's. (S models apart). These cars need to be maintained well to avoid problems if you get a poorly maintained / high mileage car,you may think you have a bargain.It may cost many £000's to get it up to scratch.i would always think it makes sense to buy the best car you can,as in spend as much as you can afford & get it checked out...if you buy a cheap one have the money ready if you need to put it right.

30k is a realistic entry point for a 993TT, but I would not warrant the condition. Also, I stress that we are talking LHD, but I have owned many LHD cars and have never had a problem with driving on the 'wrong side' of the cockpit. Okay, don't believe the 30k Turbo 4 exists? think again. - There was a Turbo 4 in Evo in the classifieds for 33k a few months back. High miles if I remember, and slightly over, but remember that 30k is the entry point. Bit of bargaining may have seen a grand lopped off. - The cheapest 993TT on mobile.de, is 36,500 euros, ie 24,500 quid. Now, that is guaranteed to be a dog and importation isn't what it used to be, so add a couple of grand on for the hassle and expense. But that is still very sub 30k. - The cheapest one I would be tempted by came from these guys here: http://home.mobile.de/YES-Automarkt They have a cheeky 1995 model with 70k miles on the clock for 45900 eur which is £30,833 So yes they exist. You just have to hunt for them, and be wary that one or two will be cheap for a reason. Remember that the Turbo 4 is unjustly undervalued compared to the RSs. Whilst a 993RS has fallen from 70k to about 35k in the last 7 years, a Turbo will have fallen from 90k to a similar amount. They will continue to fall, whereas the RSs may not, simply because of the limited production run of RSs and the cult following. What are you guys waiting for? There's a 993TT for 25k out there

Dom, You bugg*r! I'm gonna be spending the rest of today surfing mobile.de and checking my finances... By the way, if you go to http://babelfish.altavista.com you can translate the mobile.de site (my German, she iz not zo hot). VS

You spent bloody ages trying to find them didn't you Hmmmmmm, I want one.

Nah, it took me about 5 minutes, plus a few minutes on xe.net doing the currency conversions Glad to be of service

Domster,on the current pricing.It seems that most of the 964 RS are over here & there is little difference in buying them in germany.where as there seem to be more opportunities in the 993 TT...I think for the most part people prefer to buy cars in the UK to save hassle. if you bought in Germany with a service history,established the car here,as in registered & a few Uk specialist stamps,you could actually be on to a winner over a couple of years....if any on the site you saw were speed yellow.I think it may already be sold to Verysideways!

This is not an argument which I particularly want to get in to, but fwiw, I do have a wife and child and I'm more than happy to have them as passengers in the cerb. The fibre-glass does break on impact, but I also know that in doing so absorbs far more energy than the equivalent metal. Absorbed energy which isn't transmitted to the occupants. The roll cage gives me more confidence with big impacts (or inversions) than I feel with my euro-box, which would be the other alternative. I also know that the cerb has side impact beams (which I believe earlier models [griff & chim] do not have), however rudimentary they may be. Otoh, I also know how tall HGV wheels are in relation to the cerb... It's a bit academic until TVR submit their cars for appropriate crash tests, rather than relying on the Tuscan race series to test the overall chassis concept for crash worthiness. I wouldn't argue with the reliability though; if my wife's relying on it whilst she's on her own I think the more "mainstream" the better. But then again, other marques break-down too. I'd probably get her a Lexus I also think it's true that it's not the "TVR" which loses the back end; it's the driver. I also don't think it's helpful to start implicating specific marques in certain accidents and consequences. We can all point to a whole bunch of cars with similar characteristics. Still, the original poster has one of life's better dilemmas to contend with.

Thanks everyone - keep 'em coming. Verysideway's comments re why he likes driving the Porsche are great - I'd like that feeling and know what you mean about the brutal nature of the Scoob/Evo (although I find that impressive in it's own way....). I tend to agree about the Cerb, although I've heard they are very strong as the fibreglass is good at absorbing a serious impact (will look a wreak afterwards). With family & kids active safety is as important as passive and so I do worry also about the back-end, no ABS etc. LHD 993 Turbo sounds good, although for £30k (or so) I'd be wanting something in great condition and not run any risks of scraping the barrel to get a Turbo - not because it's LHD or an import, but simply because I don't know the cars well enough yet to pick the good one other than by luck and a good dealer/independent! As I say, keep 'em coming please. Advice is good so far. The final cut is probably going to be towards the Porsche and the P1 (much more fluid and intuitive than the later STIs and the brutal Evos IMHO). Thanks! Jon

I've just had a very interesting phone call with HM Customs and Excise, and it seems that if the car is older than 6 months old and/or has more than 6oookm on it, then it's classed as "not new". In this case, if you were to buy the car from germany and get it as a tax free export then you would be liable for VAT in this country at 17.5%. However, if you paid VAT (or bought the car from a private individual) in Germany then you would NOT be liable to pay VAT in this country. Since VAT appears to be 16% (according to www.911-rs.de ) over there then it wouls be silly to claim back that 16% and then pay 17.5% here. Now all i have to do is decide between a 993RS and a 993TT. I know the RS will be cheaper to run and better for depreciation, but the TT will be cheaper to buy and more comfortable... and that boost is sooooo addictive! VS Edited to add: That 24,500 pound 993TT has engine damage, that's why it's so cheap. >> Edited by verysideways on Tuesday 18th February 14:00

Pete, well done on spotting why the 993tt is so cheap... that said, 911 engines are pretty easy to come by, and if you were going to tune it to 500bhp then most internals would be ripped out anyway. As I said, at 24,500 it will be a dog, but I reckon on fair examples being found in Germany for 30k. Best to treat your friendly Porsche tech to a free holiday in the fatherland for inspection purposes however, and have more than one lined up. Look at say three, then take your pick. Having a grand or two above the 30k budget would pay dividends here. Clubsport - you are right about the pricing of RSs over the water. That is why I didn't get one abroad, despite having imported a couple of cars before. It makes far more sense to get a LHD car in the UK, unless there are potentially massive savings. That is why the Evo classifieds 993tt at 33k was very good value. It may have cost 30k in Germany, but importing would cost another 2k all in, I should guestimate. Get him down a grand and you've got a continental car without the hassle. 993tts are good value in Germany at the moment. RSs aren't. It's that simple. Re the TVR safety post, I quite agree that the Cerb is pretty safe. However, suspension and drivetrain characteristics will drastically affect the tail-happiness of the car. It isn't just the driver. That is why driving a Lotus Carlton in the snow was less dangerous to me than driving a 964RS in the wet... the Lotus had power steering, soggy suspension and an engine at the front, which made breakaway a lot easier to contain. I have witnessed a Cerb spin in virtually a straight line going up through the gears - as did many others recently. I would say that the extreme power of the car, plus the characteristics of the limited slip diff etc would have conspired against the driver more than if he was in an MG midget. Mixture of car AND driver, I'd suggest.

Jon101, I may be able to put you in touch with a man who's sellnig a nice P1 - private sale, so no PXs Versideways - if you buy a used car from the continent, VAT would/should have been paid on it at that country's prevailing rate at the time. Under European trade law if you imported it into the UK, no VAT would be payable over here, regardles of any differential in the VAT rates. That's why it can be cheaper to order new cars from certain countries (eg Land Rovers from Spain ISTR) where the prevailing VAT rate (and sometimes new car tax too) is lower than the UK's ripoff rate. I also believe that if you buy a used car from the Channel Isles, VAT is assessed on its value as a used car too(assuming no VAT was paid on it in the first place). 993 TT at £25,000 - what price my grandmother?

I know this might not help (especially since the conversation is turning against the Cerb!) but when I chose my cars, safety was the primary concern to me, with performance a close second. Thats why I chose the Cerb for its integral roll cage - there aren't many of those around in production cars, and a 5-series quite simply cos its 'big'. Oh, and I should mention .. the M5 is currently back at the dealers for misc. engine problems, and the Cerb is performing duties as the school-run car. I can almost 'feel' the smug grin on the front of the Cerb when I drive it! I guess that's another alternative - my M5 was £30K, by the way. It's nowhere near as raw as the Cerb, but you'd better believe it's rapid when it gets going!

Hi Jon, I ran an EVO VII alongside the 993tt for a while and I've often argued for the pure adrenalin rush of the EVO, even in the face of the uber-schneller swine meat - but frankly, over time, the 911 really IS like a fine wine - I've been using mine a lot more of late (following quite justified admonishments from the E240 department of Gregdom ) and it truly 'melds,' in the same way that Spock did with that whale in Star Trek IV. Having said that, in a straight fight 'twixt normally aspirated 911 and EVO VII, Domster would have his work cut out to persaude me away from the Jap stuff (Jesus, heresy, right?). Indeed, the better Scoobies offer a little more compliance than the EVOs so you personally may prefer that route...remember, a proper WRX STi hits 60 in around 4 seconds time after time after time and that boxer engine is a gem. {Btw, RS models excepted - before Domster kills me, natch.} The tt, if you can get one, post exhaust mod (they really need one of these) is the best car this side of the 996tt, end of story. And like the aforementioned liquid product of The Dordogne, you are forever developing your mutual, automotive rapport. Chin, chin, DeR. >> Edited by derestrictor on Wednesday 19th February 09:04

the VAT rate in Germany is indeed 16% No offence to any englishman, but I know germans. Considering the way germans tick, I would expect to find cars in Germany that are considerably better maintained than here in UK. mobile.de is AFAIK the biggest website of its kind. I have bought a car off it, and a bloody bargain it was too. Good luck, if anyone wants to go that way.

Must admit I'm sorely tempted to swap "240" for "E55", the way prices are on that site! Jeepers! That said, a UK car can be had for around twenty grand. Debadge it and some muppet will think its some 220CDI choker, before foot stompdom puts them firmly in the rear view. Plus, if I get a silver one, good chance I could smuggle it past the T&S...here's hoping Himmel! :Edited to replace the letter F with the letter S. >> Edited by GregE240 on Wednesday 19th February 14:22

What's T&F, Greg?

Trouble & Strife (Wife).

Greg, you're even starting to sound like DeR these days! LOL. I find myself hurling epithets and similes around the place when I talk to the chap, too

Thing is Dom, my DeR-ness is pronounced with a Home Counties accent - no Manc accents here! You're right though....

I'm going to restrain my will to defend the Cerb! .... and just leave you this: http://eng.autoscout24.com/home/index/default.asp There's a lovely looking 993GT2 for £32000... and some serious Ferrari's, Lambo's, Pagani's, XJ220's you name it! Probably where I'll be sourcing a 308 if I buy one....

I nearly wet my pants...until I noticed it is a GT2 "look". :-(

Gregstokovich; how dare you accuse me of Manc twanguerism? I am mortified to be associated with the big city scrotery with which I resolutely hold no truck! No, no; my particular lowliness arises from a vaguely less urban segment of the northern province; you know, the grotty little one where it's all 'eebygum, lad' and 'ekky thump.' Please, none of this dreadful East Lancs Manc meets Scouse 'top-speak,' as is the common inflection. Greg: know your peasants!

If the cars going to be used for a school run and family use I wouldn't suggest getting a Cerbera. I don't think its really designed for that and may let you down. You'd be better off with a less wild beast like the 993. Word of warning. If you test drive the Cerbera you'll buy it... so steer clear !

Thanks for all the replies Having driven the Cerb (4.2) I do see what they're all about. The power is amzing for the money and the style is good. I'm really not convinced by how usable the power is - I know it's mostly down to the driver, but having the power and not being able to even accelerate in a straight line if the road is slightly damp/cold is somewhat frustrating. I guess it's a blast in the dry in summer, and certainly you can use it for the rest of the year, but it just isn't as much fun. I think I need to test a few more 993s. Problem is when I drove the Cerb I could instantly see what the attraction was. When I drove the 993 I guess I just didn't get that feeling. It must be there, was it just me? Does it take a few outings to understand it? My test drives were pitifully short (10 mins tops) and not in cars I would buy out of personal choice (a 96 tiptronic and a pre-varioram 95 manual) but I did walk away a little cold. Sorry about this - is it normal?? Thanks, Jon

No, no, Jon - I reckon your reaction is quite normal. Tivs are so engaging the first time you experience one that instead of pespiring with sweat, you secrete Brutt 33. The combination of style, noise and performance all adds up to a drama of near Tubi-enhanced Maranellese orgasmo-frenzy...and for a fraction of the asking... IMHO, biased, of course, it has to be either something turbocharged and/or stripped out: only the T4's grasshopper-like slam could act as surrogate gusto-provider, following the passing of el Cerbereeno. I was re-reading an article on buying 2nd hand Tuscans in EVO last night. There's no doubt that TVRs do have that indefinable thing unbiquitously touted as character. Ultimately, you need both. And a Ferrari. And a Noble.

DeR is correct. Standard 993s can leave you cold if you are after that 'wow' factor. As he said, go for something stripped out or turbocharged. The 993RS or Turbo 4 are different animals, although I think the RS has even more character than the Turbo, simply because of its track ability and sporting intent. The 964RS is obviously a cheaper alternative if your budget is sub 30k.

back to square one...forget an RS...these cars are registered as 2 seaters and have no rear seats....you will have a smile on your face on the school run,but it's hardly fair to let the kids roll around on the luggage platform behind you.

Good point. However, kiddy seats can be fitted, I believe, if the kids are at the car seat age. Any older and only a turbo would do. Lanky teenagers would struggle though....

Domster,,,I have been relaiably informed that as stated the cars are registered as 2 seaters.If you carry passengers in the back,you are effectively overloading the car.The insurance companies do not want to know in the event of an accident claim. I heard of someone who wanted to put rear seats in their 2 seater clubsport & it was way too complicated to get the classification changed with the DVLA. Seriously why would you want to do this to an RS / it's bad enough that "comfort" versions exist!

True - babies add far too much excess weight! However, the previous owner of my 964RS had a baby seat in it... as you say, may be dodgy with the insurers. Bad rear access as the buckets don't tilt forward.

A friend of mine bought a Cerbera 4.2 a couple of years ago. It broke down on the 1st day he had it. He went back on the deal and bought a Impreza P1. He only kept this for about 6 months as he got bored of its 'safe' handling. He then bought a Cerbera speed 6 which he had no problems with.....he recently sold this for a M5.

Jon, interesting question, as a new PistonHead, I have enjoyed the responses. I had a similar question last week about buying a new car. I am an ex-Scuby driver, having the Pro-drive converted 2000 spec car (245bhp) and thorough enjoyed every minute of it. I am now looking at a 993TT or 996, but what about an M3 evo ? Four seats, plenty of ponies, good safety, no reliability issues ? Posh Bloke

On the RS rear seat front - I fitted rear belts in mine for kiddies' seats - a bugger of a job since the shell was a genuine lightweight shell - no captive nuts in place. Point is I registered my car as a 4 seater when I imported it - job done! Ive seen lots of RSs with rear belts and don't the "tourings" have rear seats fited as standard in any case?

that is the key registering the car as 4 seater as stated.You were smart to do it when importing as it is more complicated to suddenly change such things with dvla. The tourings i have seen have had the benefit(?) of a/c,electric windows & sunroofs....I understand that shell,suspension & rear seats were as regular RS....basically some girly "comfort" pack you add on to a standard car to bu**er it up at further expense.

Presumably you mean an E46 M3? Not an E36 M3 Evo... I wouldn't go for the E36 M3 Evo as these are pretty boring and the E46 is meant to be a much better car. You can get them for about 33k these days, which should be in your budget. The only thing I don't like about them is that they don't cope with track (ab)use too well. Brakes and clutch weren't up to GetCarter's talents.

In reply to Clubsport's: "Seriously why would you want to do this to an RS / it's bad enough that "comfort" versions exist!" After I drove a GT3 I realised that no amount of money thrown at a Carrera 2 would give me the same experience, so was determined to get a GT3 with sports seats (not bucket)/no roll cage and plumb in a baby seat at the back. I don't think that's a blasphemous compromise. Much easier, I thought, than heavily modifying a C2 with little hope of a satisfactory facsimile. Sadly insurance and DVLA considerations put paid to that idea, otherwise it would have been an ideal solution.

I'm trying to decide what car to go for next. I know the cars above are very different but that's my short list. First the boring bits. I need 4 seats (well 2plus2 for 2 small children). Will use the car at weekends mostly but the wife will use a bit during the week (school run etc). I reckon on about 5 track days a year. Safety, reliability, depreciation are all important. Looking to spend around £30k for a 993 or Cerb, less for the P1 or Evo. Plus, I want something with some spirit and character. Performance is v important but I want usable performance. I have an Impreza Turbo currently and love it. The 993 seems like a logical choice, but what will it give me beyond the logical aspects? I've driven a MY95 and to be honest it wasn't faster than my Scoob. I could afford a MY96 but not a C4S/turbo etc. Help me out here, I know this is a Porsche site, but what (relatively) impartial advice can you give me? This is my first post so go easy on me! Thanks. Jon