what's going on with air cooled cars? - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Lots of air cooled 911s popping up on various platforms over the past few weeks; cars that were previously £70-£80k or unseen now on for sub £50k!

Has your Internet just started working or you been on holiday all year? Tiiiiiiiimmmmmber. Good, and long may it continue. Hopefully it spreads and the top end of the market catches fire too. Sanity, on its way home hopefully.

Can you imagine what this 3.0 with a bit of lipstick would of went for last year!? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374875417935?mkcid=16&a... Another 20k off and it' seems more like reality.

And 993 cars that were recently £55-£65k now up for £35-£45k

ImbackYo said: Can you imagine what this 3.0 with a bit of lipstick would of went for last year!? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374875417935?mkcid=16&a... Another 20k off and it' seems more like reality. And I would be in like a flash! Very pretty and properly sorted example

miles2018 said: And 993 cars that were recently £55-£65k now up for £35-£45k Good condition manual coupes, or tiptronic convertables? Care to post some examples?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334984838681?hash=item4... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334984838681?hash=item4... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125977078602?hash=item1... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266340262957?hash=item3... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/166276692365?hash=item2... Edited by miles2018 on Monday 14th August 20:07

Jellyfishfields said: miles2018 said: And 993 cars that were recently £55-£65k now up for £35-£45k Good condition manual coupes, or tiptronic convertables? Care to post some examples? I never specifically said good condition manuals

miles2018 said: Jellyfishfields said: miles2018 said: And 993 cars that were recently £55-£65k now up for £35-£45k Good condition manual coupes, or tiptronic convertables? Care to post some examples? I never specifically said good condition manuals I never said you did, that's why I asked. All cars seem to have dropped recently, so no surprises here. However I never saw convertable tips that high anyway.

But it's not just convertable tips; Carrera 3.2s in particular have dropped way down from where they were a year ago.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/256170524049?hash=item3...

G50 too https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/145236247196?hash=item2...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325771803608?hash=item4...

The market is definitely in decline, but some sellers, and even some buyers, are clearly in denial. However, having said that, the best, genuine, low mileage, manual, coupe, full history, unmolested aircooled models will still attract top money. They are still beautiful cars. Everything else should find a realistic level. And, certainly far too many dubious ‘resto-mods’ floating around at silly money.

miles2018 said: But it's not just convertable tips; Carrera 3.2s in particular have dropped way down from where they were a year ago. Looks like a similar drop all over to me, I never saw 3.2s get that high.

Koln-RS said: The market is definitely in decline, but some sellers, and even some buyers, are clearly in denial. However, having said that, the best, genuine, low mileage, manual, coupe, full history, unmolested aircooled models will still attract top money. They are still beautiful cars. Everything else should find a realistic level. And, certainly far too many dubious ‘resto-mods’ floating around at silly money. That pretty much sums it up.

Koln-RS said: The market is definitely in decline, but some sellers, and even some buyers, are clearly in denial. However, having said that, the best, genuine, low mileage, manual, coupe, full history, unmolested aircooled models will still attract top money. They are still beautiful cars. Everything else should find a realistic level. And, certainly far too many dubious ‘resto-mods’ floating around at silly money. In the classic market, they'll suffer the most I reckon. In percentage terms of course.

I agree, and for whatever reason Miles is quoting some silly numbers. 993 from £35k ? A quick look on PH Classifieds shows the lowest at £45k ... 3.2's were often around £50k with £70k for something quite special ... so again, what does the 3.2 example show ?

Two nice 964 C2 manual coupes came up for sale on Pistonheads last week both priced at £69'950 and both sold within a day. The one priced at £85'000 is still up for sale!

ChrisW. said: I agree, and for whatever reason Miles is quoting some silly numbers. 993 from £35k ? A quick look on PH Classifieds shows the lowest at £45k ... 3.2's were often around £50k with £70k for something quite special ... so again, what does the 3.2 example show ? https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202204275073026?sort=price-asc&advertising-location=at_cars&aggregatedTrim=993%20Carrera&include-delivery-option=on&make=Porsche&model=911&postcode=Ss75sf&fromsra https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202308130... https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202308030... https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202204275... Edited by miles2018 on Monday 14th August 22:03

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202307229...

miles2018 said: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202307229... Yeah, but that one comes without an engine.

Now folk will understand the hullabaloo around ULEZ. ULEZ is not about the poor not being able to afford a cheap run around to swap their jalopy diesel, it’s about wealthy individuals with expensive classic cars that will tank in value. If you own a 993, 964 or a G body and live inside the M25 you’re suddenly facing a £12.50 per day bill just to pop down to Tesco’s. They’re no longer viable hence the reason some are dumping them.

I’m not seeing it (decline in air cooled prices). I been an owner / watcher on and off of this stuff for 15 years. Are we talking adverted prices or real sold prices. Manual 993 coupes still doing £50k (bit less for high milers, bit more for exceptional condition ones)? A 130k mile man coupe 993 sold 4 weeks ago on collecting cars for just over £48k This has been the mkt for around the last 3 or so years.

Manual coupes are very desirable and convertibles,targas,tiptronics all hung on the coat tails and saw price rises for at one time wern't that desirable cars for the enthusiast and they will now take the biggest hit! Please tell me when you see a 964 C2 manual down at £35k because it's not going to happen!

As for ULEZ,there is a much bigger world out there than inside the M25!

I’ve just put a deposit on a nice unmolested 67k miles, green, manual coupe, most I looked at / spoke to people about were around the 60k mark, with sellers not prepared to negotiate. Edited by gareth h on Tuesday 15th August 08:37

I’m torn between the later aircooled models G50 3.2, 964, 993. Like each for different reasons. But prefer the simple, narrow body, unspoilered, variants - rwd, coupe, manual. Nice 993 on CC, if you don’t mind the colour combo and rear ‘spoiler’. Be interesting to see what it reaches. https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1997-porsche-9...

I live inside the soon-to-be-expanded ULEZ and have no intention to sell my 993. People really think these are used as commuter cars?!

I've yet to see much evidence of anything cheap linked on this thread to be honest, leggy tiptronic cabs have never been expensive.

n12maser said: I live inside the soon-to-be-expanded ULEZ and have no intention to sell my 993. People really think these are used as commuter cars?! Come back in 6 months and see if your view remains the same. You’ll have to add the ULEZ cost to fuel, insurance, tax, servicing etc. it’s also a cost that you can’t see the tangible benefits of so it’ll grate over time no matter how wealthy you are. Delaying the sale of it will also cost you in the long run in depreciation. I could of course be wrong and I often am.

gareth h said: I’ve just put a deposit on a nice unmolested 67k miles, green, manual coupe, most I looked at / spoke to people about were around the 60k mark, with sellers not prepared to negotiate. Edited by gareth h on Tuesday 15th August 08:37 Looks nice, I had my eye on that, I think it's only been up for a week or so. As others have said, good manual coupes still selling well if sensibly priced. Pflanzgarten said: I've yet to see much evidence of anything cheap linked on this thread to be honest, leggy tiptronic cabs have never been expensive. Exactly that, the links so far prove nothing and if a cheap one does appear they normally turn out to be priced that way for a reason.

Jellyfishfields said: gareth h said: I’ve just put a deposit on a nice unmolested 67k miles, green, manual coupe, most I looked at / spoke to people about were around the 60k mark, with sellers not prepared to negotiate. Edited by gareth h on Tuesday 15th August 08:37 Looks nice, I had my eye on that, I think it's only been up for a week or so. As others have said, good manual coupes still selling well if sensibly priced. Yep, it sold within a day, but that buyer dropped out for personal reasons, I was lucky to be next in line.

As I was first in line last month. Priced right and I snapped it up the first day on sale!

[quote=stichill99]As I was first in line last month. Priced right and I snapped it up the first day on sale! [/quote Ooo that looks lovely. Much like a red 964 I had many years ago.

maz8062 said: Come back in 6 months and see if your view remains the same. You’ll have to add the ULEZ cost to fuel, insurance, tax, servicing etc. it’s also a cost that you can’t see the tangible benefits of so it’ll grate over time no matter how wealthy you are. Delaying the sale of it will also cost you in the long run in depreciation. I could of course be wrong and I often am. If someone uses their 1984-1999 Porsche twice a month every month it costs them £300 per year - £25 per month debited from their bank account automatically, they don't even have to think about it. That is not going to cause a crash in modern classic values. The number of modern classics being driven more often than that inside the M25 is tiny.

stichill99 said: As for ULEZ,there is a much bigger world out there than inside the M25! It's likely ULEZ will spread. (In Europe too.)

Guybrush said: It's likely ULEZ will spread. (In Europe too.) Almost a certainty. But yep, it's only 300 quid a month.........sigh.

braddo said: maz8062 said: Come back in 6 months and see if your view remains the same. You’ll have to add the ULEZ cost to fuel, insurance, tax, servicing etc. it’s also a cost that you can’t see the tangible benefits of so it’ll grate over time no matter how wealthy you are. Delaying the sale of it will also cost you in the long run in depreciation. I could of course be wrong and I often am. If someone uses their 1984-1999 Porsche twice a month every month it costs them £300 per year - £25 per month debited from their bank account automatically, they don't even have to think about it. That is not going to cause a crash in modern classic values. The number of modern classics being driven more often than that inside the M25 is tiny. Exactly. I've set up auto-pay - it's worth it to me, I tried to go modern pork (albeit only 981 gts) and it didn't do it for me. Classic Insurance and servicing on air-cooled is already very reasonable, I don't use it enough for the the ULEZ to be any reason to sell, no way.

ULEZ wouldn’t make me sell my car, mainly because I don’t live anywhere near that London and so there are great swabes of the country where you actually want to drive a car. Even if I did, a £12.50 charge a few times a month for 7 or 8 months of there is bugger all.

As others have said classic case of “a rising tide catches all boats”….a more “discerning” market opens a much wider pricing difference between what might look like two relatively similar models. Given the expense of working on these cars (especially bodywork) and difficulty of finding good people to work on them (more so with the 60’s and 70’s cars) there should be a huge pricing differential.

Good thread. Been looking at a few 3.2’s and trying to get a handle on prices. This targa caught my eye with 10k spent over 7Yrs including 3k just recently . Prices seem to vary quite a bit with coupes with half the mileage in the late 40’s early 50’s and some targa’s around the mid 30’s . Not sure if it’s wise to dip my toe in just yet although Collecting Cars does at least give you an idea where these cars sell

The once unloved 3.2 Carrera Targas do seem to have come back in popularity. Guess partly it’s because Porsche revived the original ‘look’ in the 991/992 (the 993/996/997 designs never really worked). And, for summer fun use, it works quite well. Also, I believe, better rear headroom than the Coupe. Big divide still seems to be the G50 variants. There is a justifiable premium for the later 87-89 models.

GT3Manthey said: Good thread. Been looking at a few 3.2’s and trying to get a handle on prices. This targa caught my eye with 10k spent over 7Yrs including 3k just recently . Prices seem to vary quite a bit with coupes with half the mileage in the late 40’s early 50’s and some targa’s around the mid 30’s . Not sure if it’s wise to dip my toe in just yet although Collecting Cars does at least give you an idea where these cars sell Read the collecting cars thread. Some cars apparently don't really sell.

ImbackYo said: Read the collecting cars thread. Some cars apparently don't really sell. Tks . As in spoof sales or don’t make the reserve ?

Koln-RS said: The once unloved 3.2 Carrera Targas do seem to have come back in popularity. Guess partly it’s because Porsche revived the original ‘look’ in the 991/992 (the 993/996/997 designs never really worked). And, for summer fun use, it works quite well. Also, I believe, better rear headroom than the Coupe. Big divide still seems to be the G50 variants. There is a justifiable premium for the later 87-89 models. Yes I like the targa . Summer use on occasional days is what I’m looking for . Also something that isn’t too expansive and won’t lose its shirt hopefully

Start your research now and look to buy in Oct/Nov/Dec when the market is traditionally flattest. Leave a reserve for any winter refurbs/upgrades, then enjoy from March > Personally, I’d want a nice G50, without the big rear spoiler Bought wisely, you should be financially ok - the best aircooleds will always be desirable.

"the 993/996/997 designs never really worked" Well they worked for me. I had a 996 Targa for over eight years and thought it a terrific car. The roof was much better than my current 991. When open, the hole above my head (not in) was both bigger and quieter than the 991 glass roof. The opening tailgate (not on 993) was really useful and the shape of the rear glass better resolved in my opinion. To show I'm not biased I ran a 3.2 coupe for eleven years and 120,000 miles, at which time the Targa was known for its rotting rear bulkhead. Perhaps they've all been sorted now. Apologies for the thread deviation but now I would go for a tax free/ ULEZ avoiding 204 bhp SC.

I sort of agree, the biggest flaw of the G Series Targa was it's interruption of the 911 teardrop shape. It's got a bloody flat roof! In isolation they're lovely but next to a coupe they're an ugly duckling-the 993 onwards fixed that visual flaw but introduced a weight and complexity one!

Having sold my non sport 84 3.2 with low mileage and great condition some 3 years ago privately, I see them often pop up at the same price, not sure they have dropped. G

Likewise I would say that values remain strong and there appears to be very little disinvesting in the way that there may be with the huge volumes of much newer cars ... There will be petrol for decades, and many of these cars are taken out on high days and holidays so their costs come under the heading of fun ... So maybe the brief answer to this question is ... nothing ?

Apologies , it appears I forgot to link the car I was referring to in my original post - https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/1987-porsche-9...

I do find the whole end-of-petrol cars/ULEZ/Crit Air thing rather disconcerting, so much so that I’m taking my ‘89 3.2 to Tom at 911V next week. I am very torn though because it’s a very good example (unusual colour with all the desirables) and feel I’m being spooked into selling. And what do I replace it with anyway?

Lungauer said: I do find the whole end-of-petrol cars/ULEZ/Crit Air thing rather disconcerting, so much so that I’m taking my ‘89 3.2 to Tom at 911V next week. I am very torn though because it’s a very good example (unusual colour with all the desirables) and feel I’m being spooked into selling. And what do I replace it with anyway? Seriously? Did you buy it as an 'investment', or did you buy it to drive and enjoy? I don't understand the hysteria in this thread, and the level of misinformation is bizarre. If the money/value is a worry, a 1989 car will be exempt from every rule in six years time. So it's 'value' will go up, if that's your thing. Or stop listening to the nonsense and drive the car.

Lungauer said: I do find the whole end-of-petrol cars/ULEZ/Crit Air thing rather disconcerting, so much so that I’m taking my ‘89 3.2 to Tom at 911V next week. I am very torn though because it’s a very good example (unusual colour with all the desirables) and feel I’m being spooked into selling. And what do I replace it with anyway? Post up some pics and details on this thread and I'm sure you'll get some interest. On your wider point, it won't be that long until your car is in the 40yo exemption category so I think it would be a great 'end-of-days' petrol car hold.

kith said: Post up some pics and details on this thread and I'm sure you'll get some interest. It'll be up for about 3 seconds before the posting police take it down.

And a number of cars for sale coming out of long term storage

miles2018 said: And a number of cars for sale coming out of long term storage For economic reasons ?

Saw a guards red 3.2 Targa down in Cornwall by the coast last year and it looked fantastic, have really grown on me. Felt right at home there.

Orangecurry said: Seriously? Did you buy it as an 'investment', or did you buy it to drive and enjoy? I don't understand the hysteria in this thread, and the level of misinformation is bizarre. If the money/value is a worry, a 1989 car will be exempt from every rule in six years time. So it's 'value' will go up, if that's your thing. Or stop listening to the nonsense and drive the car. Yes seriously. I drove the car down to Cataluña in June and avoiding Crit Air in France was a pain. I had to go to Montpellier on the way back and was waiting to be stopped and fined. Bloody nuisance. And it doesn’t matter that it will be 40 years old soon - they’re just not allowed into Crit Air cities and the number of those is growing. I suspect this will be happening more and more in European cities, probably with good reason. No I didn’t buy it as an investment, but neither do I want to be hampered in my enjoyment of what is a play car. Might as well have a Caterham.

I am not too pessimistic on the prospects for air cooled cars over the next 10 to 15, maybe 20 years? If I was I would have got out of mine by now! I do think a limited production, factory example in Lhd will have the best global liquidity and may be considered for motorsport purpsoes when that is all that is allowed, using synthetic fuel, who knows? As for the younger generations, there does seem to be quite a lot of interest in air cooled cars on the automotive gaming platforms, maybe when they are a little older and sell their tech unicorns off, they will be looking for an iconic air cooled Porsche?

Yes, still wouldn't stop me buying one if the right one came up. I just wouldn't be thinking of it as part of my "retirement fund" in the future like some seem to and have a storage units full of them. Younger ones are interested in them but I think the ratio is alot lower than say 30 years ago. Too much to distract their attention/funds...a Scooby is as much a classic to them as an air cooled. Edited by Andyoz on Wednesday 23 August 16:08

Probably get lambasted but I think it's a kind of consumer alignment (for want of a better word). What was a small, and fairly niche community has morphed into a weird, hyper online, hyper-visual, very corporate industry with a collective delusion. Prominent enthusiasts and content creators, (well respected) spending long-form YT videos gassing up air-cooled cars to mythical status, usually with a chain wallet and heavy selvage denim in tow, selling you a £17 bag of coffee and a ticket to a lawn event. To me, this all compounds in the space, as the tastemakers talk the cars up, the consumers and fans enter the space with certain expectations, themselves in-turn espousing the incredibleness of the cars and how they are the best. It can seem, not always of course that new entrants into this space get drawn more to the reputation, petrolhead cache, and "what this car says about me" rather than the actual driving sensibilities and enjoyment of the cars. When you then look at the price and cost to get into a good air-cooled 964, they then seem to take on a different role, that of wealth signifier, rather than an enthusiast item. I feel like a saturation point was reached around the pandemic. Personally, that point for me was looking at a Singer, I think a couple of years back at Goodwood and it just screamed try hard. Trying to evoke an aesthetic and moment that never actually existed but it was perfect for the modern world of visual content and looked amazing in filtered IG or YT content. I am sure it drives great but then again for a £1m you'd f king hope so. Look I know the Singer materials are great, and I know the engineering is great but it all comes across as, oddly passionless, like someone was going through a list of ingredients in a recipe; It all feels very manufactured and designed for a type of person who has a passing interest in cars but a big interest in assets and asset appreciation. I am waffling now and I probably made little sense but thought I'd bowl in with a half-assed, opinion on the issue I am seeing with the Air Cooled stuff. Luckily there are still great communities in the space and a lot of people I've met who are enthusiastic and have been around for a long-time, passionate about the cars. I suppose I've grown wearisome of the more vocal/prominent portion of the air-cooled stuff.

^^^ You made complete sense to me...

Hello, I lurk in the Porsche pages but don’t post as 911’s aren’t my thing. They are however my wife’s dream car, specifically a Grand Prix white 911 3.2 Carrera with Navy leather. Coupe of course. When these were £20k we couldn’t afford one and frankly like a child trying to catch their balloon on a windy day they have stayed stubbornly out of reach. Therefore this thread piqued my interest. On the subject of ‘undesirable 911’s’ why are Targa’s shunned? Usually the old adage of ‘top comes down price goes up applies’. Is it a wobbly dynamic or excess weight, or just a purity of aesthetics? On the subject of classic car prices I think there is a big correction due for one reason alone. In 2003 I very nearly bought a 1977 Aston Martin V8 for £18000. (I bought a house instead.) But the only way to do it was an unsecured bank loan at silly %apr. Secured financing was almost impossible on anything over 10 years old. Therefore classic cars were worth their ‘cash’ value. The latest classic bubble (2008-) has seen prices rise steadily and the finance houses took an interest (pun intended). It was possible pre-covid to take out essentially a PCP on a classic car. Big deposits but even so. I was tempted I must admit, but didn’t. I think there is no way in the current financial, environmental & legislative environment of finance being available with 50% balloon payment terms for anything much over a few years old. This means that no-one can buy their ‘dream car’ on the basis of the monthly amount & sell it in 3-4 years once the balloon is due, in the process recouping most of their outlay. Classic cars will therefore (IMHO) revert to what people are willing to spend in real money. Which will cool things a lot. TLDR: A nice G-Series was out of my reach, maybe I’ll find a good Targa if prices soften.

A few further ramblings......... YMMV, but as stated somewhere else in these pages, the Targas (and cabs to an extent) are less desirable, primarily on the disruption to the flowing lines of the coupe roof. They just look a bit "awkward". That said they are growing on me, but are quite colour and stance sensitive (definitely no whale tail though !). The perceived dynamic / flexibility short-comings are rather secondary and somewhat miss the point (other than for the dedicated "tiller-man"). The whole asset bubble is an interesting situation and has been done to death here and elsewhere, but my take is that as soon as people start to buy what are relatively mass-produced things (be they cars, watches, or whatever), thinking of them as "investments", you are reaching a peak ! I'm fairly convinced there will be pain to come in this space. The impact of interest rates in constraining people's "fun budgets" will have an impact. I don't think it will be as sharp as previous downturns as people will not lose jobs to the same extent, but a correction is definitely coming. I hope it serves merely to make these cars more useable rather than as garage ornaments whose "value" is impacted by every mile travelled. They're machines to be used, enjoyed, broken, repaired and enjoyed again..........

Jamie Summers said: A few further ramblings......... I'm fairly convinced there will be pain to come in this space. The impact of interest rates in constraining people's "fun budgets" will have an impact. I don't think it will be as sharp as previous downturns as people will not lose jobs to the same extent, but a correction is definitely coming. I hope it serves merely to make these cars more useable rather than as garage ornaments whose "value" is impacted by every mile travelled. They're machines to be used, enjoyed, broken, repaired and enjoyed again.......... I agree with this. I bought my 3.2 for £17K and have had 17 years worth of fun out of it, so I don't feel that it owes me anything really. Other cars have come and gone (and still do) but this one will stay. I see the correction as being a good thing generally because it returns it more to the enthusiast.

Unfortunately the broken bit broke me...the cost of rebuilding the 2.7 engine and sorting out a warped mag crankcase still brings a tear to my eyes. A nice 914 2.0L is definitely a sweet spot when looking for a more affordable air-cooled porker.

Swine Enthusiast said: Personally, that point for me was looking at a Singer, I think a couple of years back at Goodwood and it just screamed try hard. Trying to evoke an aesthetic and moment that never actually existed but it was perfect for the modern world of visual content and looked amazing in filtered IG or YT content. I am sure it drives great but then again for a £1m you'd f king hope so. Look I know the Singer materials are great, and I know the engineering is great but it all comes across as, oddly passionless, like someone was going through a list of ingredients in a recipe; It all feels very manufactured and designed for a type of person who has a passing interest in cars but a big interest in assets and asset appreciation. Agree re the Singer. What I can't get my head around is actually using one. Once it started to look a bit tired, they idea that it was a half million quid car (at least) would be even harder to process. But I suppose there's really no good value proposition in the air cooled market. When it was £25k and you could choose between a nice 993 C2 or a really, really nice 3.2 Carrera and you also had the option of, say, a 987.2 Cayman S, that was an interesting selection of pros and cons, none really better than the others, you took your character versus competence and usability choice and you paid your money. At current values, the air cooled stuff is a bit of a turn off.

I’ve been looking at various cars as a ‘play thing’ for weekend use and been drawn back to the air cooled cars. However, as much as I like them I just can’t see what value I’d get given current prices. It’s making me look elsewhere at cars such as the BMW Z4M coupe which for mid teens gets a reasonable example. The problem is I’m a Porsche man at heart so I keep coming back to the brand but mid teens doesn’t get you much and I’m not inclined to buy a 987 series cayman/boxster with potential engine issues.

Jamie Summers said: YMMV, but as stated somewhere else in these pages, the Targas (and cabs to an extent) are less desirable, primarily on the disruption to the flowing lines of the coupe roof. They just look a bit "awkward". That said they are growing on me, but are quite colour and stance sensitive (definitely no whale tail though !). The perceived dynamic / flexibility short-comings are rather secondary and somewhat miss the point (other than for the dedicated "tiller-man"). I don’t think it is just looks that is the issue for Targa’s and Cab’s…it is the hassle issue and increased costs. With an old car anything that goes wrong is a pain in the arse….they add to the list of things than can and will at some stage go wrong (due to age). I’ve got an electric sunroof on my 70’s 911….in the nearly 3 years I have owned the car I have never opened it, I want to use the car and a car with a roof that gets stuck open is no good to me. The right specialists to deal with these cars are few and far between and tend to be busy so it’s a case of say a month off the road because I opened my electric sunroof ? Not worth it !

I know this car ( or at least the owner) . Seriously lovely thing https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/15510639

I am with Swine Enthusiast, in that the bearded barista enthusiasts have put me off a bit. However I still fancy one, the earlier the better. Might be my next project. As far as values go, well with 35million ice engined vehicles of the road today in the UK, cars are not going anywhere soon whatever the interest rate does. They dont make air cooled 911s anymore, so I think they will always be worth something, even as an ornament.

I also think swine enthusiast makes sense. I get that an air cooled is desirable and it is to me but what I don't get are the Singer ,Guntherworks .Theon and a whole plethora of others at obscene amounts of money! A standard 930,964,993,maybe lowered a little is every bit as attractive a car for a fraction of the money!

GT3Manthey said: I know this car ( or at least the owner) . Seriously lovely thing https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/15510639 Lots of nice stuff done to it but that colour combination doesn’t do it any favours

GT3Manthey said: I know this car ( or at least the owner) . Seriously lovely thing https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/15510639 That looks lovely. I wasn’t really a Porsche fan growing up, always preferred ferrari and Lamborghini. Never an issue as couldn’t afford any of them! Then the much lower market conditions around 13 years ago allowed me to buy a high mileage 996 (via an article on here funnily enough) and after a couple of years traded this for a 993 C4 that I still have today. I’m the opposite end of the bearded enthusiast owner but the car remains standard and is well used. Although I don’t bother now, it’s been out in the snow, originally I think they used the 959 running gear in the 964 and 993 to allow playboys like me to drive to their alpine cabins for ski season It’s easy to be blasé when you own one, but it’s been a great car and I feel lucky to have had the chance. Huge power isn’t for me and the 300bhp seems enough on todays roads, it’s almost small in comparison to cars today. Point being, I do like using mine but they are an older experience and may not be for everyone, but it was a classic car I was after and 996 while lovely, felt much more modern despite being only a couple of years younger. There’s not much in the way of reliability, usability and practicality that could compete with it in the classic market, but you do have to keep up with them and keep the money going in. Expect a few owners like me would only be breaking even if we sold with the amount to keep such a car on the road over 10 years or so….

GT3Manthey said: I’ve been looking at various cars as a ‘play thing’ for weekend use and been drawn back to the air cooled cars. However, as much as I like them I just can’t see what value I’d get given current prices. It’s making me look elsewhere at cars such as the BMW Z4M coupe which for mid teens gets a reasonable example. The problem is I’m a Porsche man at heart so I keep coming back to the brand but mid teens doesn’t get you much and I’m not inclined to buy a 987 series cayman/boxster with potential engine issues. I know two folk who bought Z4M coupes and both sold them fairly quickly- they complained the ride was not very compliant at all….. On bumpy U.K. B roads not a fun drive apparently. I’ve got a S54 Z3M Coupe, I did fit Bilstein B6 shocks to sort out the ride but now to be honest it’s definitely the most fun and best handling car I’ve ever owned. I’m a Porsche fanatic, I have a 993 and a 718 GT4 but the Z3M is without doubt my favourite.

donutskidmark said: I’ve got a S54 Z3M Coupe, I did fit Bilstein B6 shocks to sort out the ride but now to be honest it’s definitely the most fun and best handling car I’ve ever owned. I’m a Porsche fanatic, I have a 993 and a 718 GT4 but the Z3M is without doubt my favourite. ah, good choice, I love the Z3 coupe, had many, also 4 times a M coupe, 2 of those special suspension and bigger wheels on 3 of those, 18 inch was best, 19 inch rubs the inside front mudguard when turn in and a light bump. they drive very good, so is the seating position/steering/pedals/gear lever, almost perfect for me, thats why I owned already 8 times a Z3 mostly special or tuned. although I must say, last week I went to a Donkervoort specialist to try out the 'newer' model a D8 GTO-JD70 (D8 GTO series from 2012 or so) you have to climb in, but once seated, wow, just perfect, low, like a good kart would feel (not driven it just in showroom test sit) and all alcantara/racetech , felt like a dream, ok not a all day car lol, but wow, and enough room at the pedals, normally very narrow. then I also test sit in their older model a D8 series till say 2011 or so, but those had the more narrow footwell and less nice products to me, so... nope, once felt their D8 GTO series, no way back to the now cheaper D8 older models, let alone those S8 series before that, so yes, hope I one day can buy a nice D8 GTO series with the nice interior and wider inside, like the GTO-RS and GTO-40 and GTO-JD70 and other GTO models. But for now, from all those cars I've owned and or tried some others long time ago, the Z3 M models were best including parts to get, DIY things, how they drive/feel speciali with a bit lower suspension/coilovers and pu bushings and 18 inch wheels, just very very good/fine cars, classic lines and yes a S54 is even better and more rare. sadly prices confirm that lol :-)

donutskidmark said: I know two folk who bought Z4M coupes and both sold them fairly quickly- they complained the ride was not very compliant at all….. On bumpy U.K. B roads not a fun drive apparently. I’ve got a S54 Z3M Coupe, I did fit Bilstein B6 shocks to sort out the ride but now to be honest it’s definitely the most fun and best handling car I’ve ever owned. I’m a Porsche fanatic, I have a 993 and a 718 GT4 but the Z3M is without doubt my favourite. Interesting post tks I’ll take a look at the Z3’s available. Have to say for summer use I like the idea of a roadster although I appreciate the handling might be compromised Vs the coupe Edited by GT3Manthey on Tuesday 29th August 06:56

flat6crocer said: Agree re the Singer. What I can't get my head around is actually using one. Once it started to look a bit tired, they idea that it was a half million quid car (at least) would be even harder to process. But I suppose there's really no good value proposition in the air cooled market. When it was £25k and you could choose between a nice 993 C2 or a really, really nice 3.2 Carrera and you also had the option of, say, a 987.2 Cayman S, that was an interesting selection of pros and cons, none really better than the others, you took your character versus competence and usability choice and you paid your money. At current values, the air cooled stuff is a bit of a turn off. Yeah, seems really overplayed and less now about the cars, and more about the aesthetic. I had a 987.2 Cayman S and imo it's all the sports car one could need (eye of the beholder and all that)

996Type said: That looks lovely. I wasn’t really a Porsche fan growing up, always preferred ferrari and Lamborghini. Never an issue as couldn’t afford any of them! Then the much lower market conditions around 13 years ago allowed me to buy a high mileage 996 (via an article on here funnily enough) and after a couple of years traded this for a 993 C4 that I still have today. I’m the opposite end of the bearded enthusiast owner but the car remains standard and is well used. Although I don’t bother now, it’s been out in the snow, originally I think they used the 959 running gear in the 964 and 993 to allow playboys like me to drive to their alpine cabins for ski season It’s easy to be blasé when you own one, but it’s been a great car and I feel lucky to have had the chance. Huge power isn’t for me and the 300bhp seems enough on todays roads, it’s almost small in comparison to cars today. Point being, I do like using mine but they are an older experience and may not be for everyone, but it was a classic car I was after and 996 while lovely, felt much more modern despite being only a couple of years younger. There’s not much in the way of reliability, usability and practicality that could compete with it in the classic market, but you do have to keep up with them and keep the money going in. Expect a few owners like me would only be breaking even if we sold with the amount to keep such a car on the road over 10 years or so…. Sounds like a lovely, well used 993 example, enjoy in good health.

Swine Enthusiast said: Probably get lambasted but I think it's a kind of consumer alignment (for want of a better word). What was a small, and fairly niche community has morphed into a weird, hyper online, hyper-visual, very corporate industry with a collective delusion. Prominent enthusiasts and content creators, (well respected) spending long-form YT videos gassing up air-cooled cars to mythical status, usually with a chain wallet and heavy selvage denim in tow, selling you a £17 bag of coffee and a ticket to a lawn event. To me, this all compounds in the space, as the tastemakers talk the cars up, the consumers and fans enter the space with certain expectations, themselves in-turn espousing the incredibleness of the cars and how they are the best. It can seem, not always of course that new entrants into this space get drawn more to the reputation, petrolhead cache, and "what this car says about me" rather than the actual driving sensibilities and enjoyment of the cars. When you then look at the price and cost to get into a good air-cooled 964, they then seem to take on a different role, that of wealth signifier, rather than an enthusiast item. I feel like a saturation point was reached around the pandemic. Personally, that point for me was looking at a Singer, I think a couple of years back at Goodwood and it just screamed try hard. Trying to evoke an aesthetic and moment that never actually existed but it was perfect for the modern world of visual content and looked amazing in filtered IG or YT content. I am sure it drives great but then again for a £1m you'd f king hope so. Look I know the Singer materials are great, and I know the engineering is great but it all comes across as, oddly passionless, like someone was going through a list of ingredients in a recipe; It all feels very manufactured and designed for a type of person who has a passing interest in cars but a big interest in assets and asset appreciation. I am waffling now and I probably made little sense but thought I'd bowl in with a half-assed, opinion on the issue I am seeing with the Air Cooled stuff. Luckily there are still great communities in the space and a lot of people I've met who are enthusiastic and have been around for a long-time, passionate about the cars. I suppose I've grown wearisome of the more vocal/prominent portion of the air-cooled stuff. That’s a very well thought out response However as a former aircooled owner, I do feel dutybound to enquire (and NOT in a snide, keyboard warrior, passive aggressive manner) have you spent seat time in an air cooled 911 ? If you’ve not, do it, they are truly wonderful cars to drive I’ve seen several Singer classics over the last 4 years, and had a good poke around one of them, and I can confirm the attention to detail is exquisite and they are indeed beautifully screwed together, I’ve yet to drive one, and as their values continue to increase, the chances of it happening become ever more remote unfortunately. I have however owned a plethora (4) of 964 RS’s and a 993 RS, all were bought when they were largely unappreciated (between 2002 & 2009) and I sold the last 964 RS in 2014-5. They are very special cars (the RS versions moreso than the cooking C2/4s in my humble opinion) : Compact, visceral and hugely engaging to drive, and chock full of character. Singer merely took the raw materials and finessed them in much the same way Ruf have done over the years. Albeit they took it to another level altogether. Initially I liked the fact that Singer chose to backdate the 964 shape to that of a “longhood” 911 that aped the legendary 2.8 RSR. However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Granted it wouldn’t be quite as hardcore as a Tuthill 911K, but would be cheaper (one would hope) and possibly more daily useable. As for Guntherwerks and Singer’s latest creations, I’m completely with you, they’re built for the likes of Mr JWW to engage in peacocking on Instagram etc. And yes, both he and his ilk deserve the contempt they frequently garner. They do the real air cooled beardies no favours IMO. And whilst I’m not a massive fan of Magnus Walker, his love of all things air-cooled is for the right reasons, and is more genuine than the likes of the aforementioned Mr JWW.

Slippydiff said: However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Granted it wouldn’t be quite as hardcore as a Tuthill 911K, but would be cheaper (one would hope) and possibly more daily useable. Exactly this... ^

Slippydiff said: That’s a very well thought out response However as a former aircooled owner, I do feel dutybound to enquire (and NOT in a snide, keyboard warrior, passive aggressive manner) have you spent seat time in an air cooled 911 ? If you’ve not, do it, they are truly wonderful cars to drive I’ve seen several Singer classics over the last 4 years, and had a good poke around one of them, and I can confirm the attention to detail is exquisite and they are indeed beautifully screwed together, I’ve yet to drive one, and as their values continue to increase, the chances of it happening become ever more remote unfortunately. I have however owned a plethora (4) of 964 RS’s and a 993 RS, all were bought when they were largely unappreciated (between 2002 & 2009) and I sold the last 964 RS in 2014-5. They are very special cars (the RS versions moreso than the cooking C2/4s in my humble opinion) : Compact, visceral and hugely engaging to drive, and chock full of character. Singer merely took the raw materials and finessed them in much the same way Ruf have done over the years. Albeit they took it to another level altogether. Initially I liked the fact that Singer chose to backdate the 964 shape to that of a “longhood” 911 that aped the legendary 2.8 RSR. However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Granted it wouldn’t be quite as hardcore as a Tuthill 911K, but would be cheaper (one would hope) and possibly more daily useable. As for Guntherwerks and Singer’s latest creations, I’m completely with you, they’re built for the likes of Mr JWW to engage in peacocking on Instagram etc. And yes, both he and his ilk deserve the contempt they frequently garner. They do the real air cooled beardies no favours IMO. And whilst I’m not a massive fan of Magnus Walker, his love of all things air-cooled is for the right reasons, and is more genuine than the likes of the aforementioned Mr JWW. Enjoyed reading this response! I have driven a well-fettled and well-sorted 964 C2 via a good friend who is air-cooled pork mad, was a lovely thing and an enjoyable steer. I've been out in rides in a 964 RS NGT which, again was fantastic from the passenger seat and felt really quick given it's small dimensions and relative power. They are wonderful things and great cars but, as per my post, I feel that the air-cooled cache has morphed slightly, as per your last paragraph, where (some) people have taken to peacocking these items as the be-all and end-all.

I agree, but it is inevitable that Porsche will make and have made enhancements to the many new models since air-cooled. Unfortunately they also lost somethings, and if these are what floated your boat, then there is nothing more than "the market" going on with air cooled cars. Apart for their jewel like size .. the thing I enjoyed most about the RS models was that they were pared back to the necessities whilst being modified to deal with the rigours on track ... a lovely combination of driver involvement, maintenance simplicity and quality ++. Truly a high spot for me ... me driving my car rather than my car driving me ? Is this a driver / age related thing ? Do younger drivers really get the hots for the gadgets that now seem to make modern cars so much heavier and more expensive to own ?

Swine Enthusiast said: Enjoyed reading this response! I have driven a well-fettled and well-sorted 964 C2 via a good friend who is air-cooled pork mad, was a lovely thing and an enjoyable steer. I've been out in rides in a 964 RS NGT which, again was fantastic from the passenger seat and felt really quick given it's small dimensions and relative power. They are wonderful things and great cars but, as per my post, I feel that the air-cooled cache has morphed slightly, as per your last paragraph, where (some) people have taken to peacocking these items as the be-all and end-all. One of the best aircooled cars I’ve driven was a LHD 964 C2 fettled primarily for use at the ‘Ring. No one could tell me what suspension it was on (it had been swapped/changed so many times in the car’s huge history file) It ran on 18” Cup car Speedline split rims and had a 3.8 motor tweaked to 350hp. Chris W knows the engine builder all too well .. Asking price for that 964 was £35k back in 2008, it had done 130k mikes IIRC, and I thought it overpriced back then ...

Slippydiff said: However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Fully agree, for me this would the essence of all i enjoy most in a 911. I was talking to a friend a while ago who also has a low miles original 964 RS (amongst some other very special cars) and he was suggesting building something very much along the lines of above. Would be a fun project. I am afraid the Singers et all do very little for me as the end result is something uber expensive that you'll struggle to justify using much. I want the opposite really, looks like an old 964 RS track slag but goes like the wind and can lap all day without any consequence, bit like 20 years ago when they weren't very old. Saying all that i would still keep my original RS, alongside the optimised bitza.

Although there’s seldom any cheap bargains out there anymore I still think 993’s represent relatively good value. Around £50,000 should get you a decent one and for that you are driving a modern classic rarely seen in the wild…….try walking into an OPC with 50k to spend on a decent 911…. I bought mine about a decade ago and still look back at it in the car park……

The modern cars are way more capable and so much faster. I could never drive my 911 at the speeds I can push the other cars in the garage. But there is such joy in hustling a little 230 hp 911 around the country roads. It can be hard work but such joy.

donutskidmark said: Although there’s seldom any cheap bargains out there anymore I still think 993’s represent relatively good value. Around £50,000 should get you a decent one and for that you are driving a modern classic rarely seen in the wild…….try walking into an OPC with 50k to spend on a decent 911…. I bought mine about a decade ago and still look back at it in the car park…… You’ll be lucky to get a manual C2 for £50k, add £10k to that and you’re in the right ballpark, I suppose I could be described as one on the “Johnny come lately’ s” to the air-cooled world having bought my 993 a couple of weeks ago, coming from several Loti including 350 / 410 Exiges, I decided I needed a sensible car and bought a 981 Spyder, it was a lovely car, but left me a bit cold, you had to be going very fast indeed to feel like you were driving it, and that gearing ……you could argue that you only need 2 gears (2nd and 3rd), the 993 is a revelation, it’s a 1995 car with the shorter gearing, and you can use the whole gearbox, while not hitting speeds that are going to end with a jail sentence. It’s got adequate power (and I understand that a remap and light flywheel peps them up), almost Lotus like steering courtesy of 205 section, 17” front tyres and plenty of traction, I’m a convert, wish I’d done it years ago!

Slippydiff said: Swine Enthusiast said: Probably get lambasted but I think it's a kind of consumer alignment (for want of a better word). What was a small, and fairly niche community has morphed into a weird, hyper online, hyper-visual, very corporate industry with a collective delusion. Prominent enthusiasts and content creators, (well respected) spending long-form YT videos gassing up air-cooled cars to mythical status, usually with a chain wallet and heavy selvage denim in tow, selling you a £17 bag of coffee and a ticket to a lawn event. To me, this all compounds in the space, as the tastemakers talk the cars up, the consumers and fans enter the space with certain expectations, themselves in-turn espousing the incredibleness of the cars and how they are the best. It can seem, not always of course that new entrants into this space get drawn more to the reputation, petrolhead cache, and "what this car says about me" rather than the actual driving sensibilities and enjoyment of the cars. When you then look at the price and cost to get into a good air-cooled 964, they then seem to take on a different role, that of wealth signifier, rather than an enthusiast item. I feel like a saturation point was reached around the pandemic. Personally, that point for me was looking at a Singer, I think a couple of years back at Goodwood and it just screamed try hard. Trying to evoke an aesthetic and moment that never actually existed but it was perfect for the modern world of visual content and looked amazing in filtered IG or YT content. I am sure it drives great but then again for a £1m you'd f king hope so. Look I know the Singer materials are great, and I know the engineering is great but it all comes across as, oddly passionless, like someone was going through a list of ingredients in a recipe; It all feels very manufactured and designed for a type of person who has a passing interest in cars but a big interest in assets and asset appreciation. I am waffling now and I probably made little sense but thought I'd bowl in with a half-assed, opinion on the issue I am seeing with the Air Cooled stuff. Luckily there are still great communities in the space and a lot of people I've met who are enthusiastic and have been around for a long-time, passionate about the cars. I suppose I've grown wearisome of the more vocal/prominent portion of the air-cooled stuff. That’s a very well thought out response However as a former aircooled owner, I do feel dutybound to enquire (and NOT in a snide, keyboard warrior, passive aggressive manner) have you spent seat time in an air cooled 911 ? If you’ve not, do it, they are truly wonderful cars to drive I’ve seen several Singer classics over the last 4 years, and had a good poke around one of them, and I can confirm the attention to detail is exquisite and they are indeed beautifully screwed together, I’ve yet to drive one, and as their values continue to increase, the chances of it happening become ever more remote unfortunately. I have however owned a plethora (4) of 964 RS’s and a 993 RS, all were bought when they were largely unappreciated (between 2002 & 2009) and I sold the last 964 RS in 2014-5. They are very special cars (the RS versions moreso than the cooking C2/4s in my humble opinion) : Compact, visceral and hugely engaging to drive, and chock full of character. Singer merely took the raw materials and finessed them in much the same way Ruf have done over the years. Albeit they took it to another level altogether. Initially I liked the fact that Singer chose to backdate the 964 shape to that of a “longhood” 911 that aped the legendary 2.8 RSR. However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Granted it wouldn’t be quite as hardcore as a Tuthill 911K, but would be cheaper (one would hope) and possibly more daily useable. As for Guntherwerks and Singer’s latest creations, I’m completely with you, they’re built for the likes of Mr JWW to engage in peacocking on Instagram etc. And yes, both he and his ilk deserve the contempt they frequently garner. They do the real air cooled beardies no favours IMO. And whilst I’m not a massive fan of Magnus Walker, his love of all things air-cooled is for the right reasons, and is more genuine than the likes of the aforementioned Mr JWW. Everything else is just a pretender dreaming in the clouds slippy

I am also considering a 993 however would happily take the cash saving and get a tippy...http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202308030389834?atmobcid=soc3 Most of my driving is a commute so a tip would not really be a massive compromise especially if I can still get the coupe body shape.

Yellow491 said: That’s a very well thought out response However as a former aircooled owner, I do feel dutybound to enquire (and NOT in a snide, keyboard warrior, passive aggressive manner) have you spent seat time in an air cooled 911 ? If you’ve not, do it, they are truly wonderful cars to drive I’ve seen several Singer classics over the last 4 years, and had a good poke around one of them, and I can confirm the attention to detail is exquisite and they are indeed beautifully screwed together, I’ve yet to drive one, and as their values continue to increase, the chances of it happening become ever more remote unfortunately. I have however owned a plethora (4) of 964 RS’s and a 993 RS, all were bought when they were largely unappreciated (between 2002 & 2009) and I sold the last 964 RS in 2014-5. They are very special cars (the RS versions moreso than the cooking C2/4s in my humble opinion) : Compact, visceral and hugely engaging to drive, and chock full of character. Singer merely took the raw materials and finessed them in much the same way Ruf have done over the years. Albeit they took it to another level altogether. Initially I liked the fact that Singer chose to backdate the 964 shape to that of a “longhood” 911 that aped the legendary 2.8 RSR. However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Granted it wouldn’t be quite as hardcore as a Tuthill 911K, but would be cheaper (one would hope) and possibly more daily useable. As for Guntherwerks and Singer’s latest creations, I’m completely with you, they’re built for the likes of Mr JWW to engage in peacocking on Instagram etc. And yes, both he and his ilk deserve the contempt they frequently garner. They do the real air cooled beardies no favours IMO. And whilst I’m not a massive fan of Magnus Walker, his love of all things air-cooled is for the right reasons, and is more genuine than the likes of the aforementioned Mr JWW. Everything else is just a pretender dreaming in the clouds slippy Never mind the arty images Paul, where the f**k were you on Sunday at Loton ??

roca1976 said: I am also considering a 993 however would happily take the cash saving and get a tippy...http://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202308030389834?atmobcid=soc3 Most of my driving is a commute so a tip would not really be a massive compromise especially if I can still get the coupe body shape. Whoa - the OP started this thread to say prices were about to bomb! That one looks good from my Chesterfield, but has sat without MOT since 2017 it appears. However that does give you a good excuse to try to knock the owner down. I would recommend that you drive a tip to see if it suits you. I imagine you won't be able to drive that one as it has no MOT, apparently. Find a dealer with a 993 tip and blag a test drive.

Slippydiff said: Never mind the arty images Paul, where the f**k were you on Sunday at Loton ?? I was there until around 10.30,had a little excursion on cedar straight on Saturday and snapped front steering arm.!

Slippydiff said: However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Granted it wouldn’t be quite as hardcore as a Tuthill 911K, but would be cheaper (one would hope) and possibly more daily useable. Often have similar thoughts. I love what Workshop 5001 (founder is ex Singer) did to this 964 RS https://youtu.be/r-kKXN8Uw-A?si=g2auvHR4WI9p6Eph

Cheib said: Slippydiff said: However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Granted it wouldn’t be quite as hardcore as a Tuthill 911K, but would be cheaper (one would hope) and possibly more daily useable. Often have similar thoughts. I love what Workshop 5001 (founder is ex Singer) did to this 964 RS https://youtu.be/r-kKXN8Uw-A?si=g2auvHR4WI9p6Eph This looks pretty much perfect to me. https://chrometemple.com/1990-porsche-964-3-8/

Yellow491 said: I was there until around 10.30,had a little excursion on cedar straight on Saturday and snapped front steering arm.! Cedar straight sounds a better place than Mistral to have a small indiscretion , see you tomorrow

993rsr said: Cheib said: Slippydiff said: However, now the 964 design has come of age, I tend to think I’d prefer to give Singer a 964 C2 Coupe and have them build all their Classic mechanical running gear into what would look identical to a 964 RS that utilised a non-backdated, but completely refurbished bodyshell featuring carbon fibre panels, along with a 4.0 engine, 6 speed 993 transmission, Ohlins dampers and a perfectly trimmed, original looking 964 RS interior. The car would feature modern magnesium 17” Cup wheels, along with plenty of lightweight components : wiring loom, seats, exhaust, suspension components etc I’d hope it would weigh no more than 1000kg, have close to 400hp and to both the keenest Porsche aficionado and the layman, look like a completely standard 964 RS. The perfect Q car. Granted it wouldn’t be quite as hardcore as a Tuthill 911K, but would be cheaper (one would hope) and possibly more daily useable. Often have similar thoughts. I love what Workshop 5001 (founder is ex Singer) did to this 964 RS https://youtu.be/r-kKXN8Uw-A?si=g2auvHR4WI9p6Eph This looks pretty much perfect to me. https://chrometemple.com/1990-porsche-964-3-8/ That looks fabulous. Much better attention to detail that you see on so many similarly fettled cars.

Love the Workshop 5001 car but you really have to laugh that their is now a market to turn backdates back to original. Just imagine how much was spent on that car for both conversions!

Slippydiff said: One of the best aircooled cars I’ve driven was a LHD 964 C2 fettled primarily for use at the ‘Ring. No one could tell me what suspension it was on (it had been swapped/changed so many times in the car’s huge history file) It ran on 18” Cup car Speedline split rims and had a 3.8 motor tweaked to 350hp. Chris W knows the engine builder all too well .. Asking price for that 964 was £35k back in 2008, it had done 130k mikes IIRC, and I thought it overpriced back then ... Amazing how the times have changed sir!