Autocar : 458S v 650S vs 991 GT3 (non R S ;) ) - Page 4 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aODISxOHiI

991 stonking VFM 458S would like one of these too 650S not sure

BMCG said: for your viewing pleasure: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aODISxOHiI WTF? Supersports on the GT3 not Cup 2's ??

V different price points, good gt3 can hold its own till the rs comes. He didn't seem to like the mclaren. Edited by Callughan on Saturday 25th October 11:42

sidicks said: WTF? Supersports on the GT3 not Cup 2's ?? Best road tyre you can buy though but NOT N SPEC 458 just spanks every thing, and the front end makes the car, some thing a 911 will never have, and they have to resort to rear wheel steering to get it to work. Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 25th October 12:42

mrdemon said: Best road tyre you can buy though but NOT N SPEC 458 just spanks every thing, and the front end makes the car, some thing a 911 will never have, and they have to resort to rear wheel steering to get it to work. Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 25th October 12:42 Or take the time to get used to how a 911 drives and learn how to get the front end to work? It doesn't take much effort

ClarkPB said: mrdemon said: Best road tyre you can buy though but NOT N SPEC 458 just spanks every thing, and the front end makes the car, some thing a 911 will never have, and they have to resort to rear wheel steering to get it to work. Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 25th October 12:42 Or take the time to get used to how a 911 drives and learn how to get the front end to work? It doesn't take much effort shall we revisit this little competition when the 991 GT3 RS rocks up... after all the 991 GT3 had no probs excelling the standard 458.....hell even the prior generation RS dusted the 458....cf. myriad reivews Harris et al. one really should insist on even playing field...no? 458S vs a 991 GT3 RS...that will be one to watch..... my money will be in the RS... Edited by BMCG on Saturday 25th October 14:14

ClarkPB said: Or take the time to get used to how a 911 drives and learn how to get the front end to work? It doesn't take much effort it's gets better every model but never really excels in that dept, trail braking just slows you down and you should not need to have to do it. Porsche know this and have made sure the car can corner better with real wheel steering and that seems to make the car. I am not knocking the product it's 100k cheaper and knocks out amazing times, but the 458S spanks it.

BMCG said: shall we revisit this little competition when the 991 GT3 RS rocks up... after all the 991 GT3 had no probs excelling the standard 458.....hell even the prior generation RS dusted the 458....cf. myriad reivews Harris et al. one really should insist on even playing field...no? 458S vs a 991 GT3 RS...that will be one to watch..... my money will be in the RS... I'll take your bet, the RS will bring big aero to the party, but the 991 GT3 already has all the trick bits and way more BHp than quoted.

mrdemon said: trail braking just slows you down and you should not need to have to do it Not sure if serious.....you want to take a poll of racing drivers with regards to trailbraking? Very impressive from the gt3 but autocar seem to missing rather a lot of rather obvious mistakes... Supersports on the gt3 and corsas on the speciale..?!

isaldiri said: Not sure if serious.....you want to take a poll of racing drivers with regards to trailbraking? Very impressive from the gt3 but autocar seem to missing rather a lot of rather obvious mistakes... Supersports on the gt3 and corsas on the speciale..?! very, I doubt you are going to be trail braking a 991 GT3, but as I have not driven one yet, hard to say if that will upset the electrics. drive the 458S and the thing just turns in, I love the way the front end works on the car. Even in the vid, the word "understeer" came up a lot.

I'd be surprised if the tyres were MPSS. Probably a mistake in describing them?

I actually think that a Turbo S will probably be quicker around Castle Coombe than a "regular" GT3 given the long straights.

mrdemon said: isaldiri said: Not sure if serious.....you want to take a poll of racing drivers with regards to trailbraking? Very impressive from the gt3 but autocar seem to missing rather a lot of rather obvious mistakes... Supersports on the gt3 and corsas on the speciale..?! very, I doubt you are going to be trail braking a 991 GT3, but as I have not driven one yet, hard to say if that will upset the electrics. drive the 458S and the thing just turns in, I love the way the front end works on the car. Even in the vid, the word "understeer" came up a lot. Err, as I understand it you've driven a Speciale a mere 10 miles on roadtest, and yet despite not having driven a 991 GT3, you know that it's the better car dynamically ? My guess is you drove the Speciale with an over anxious salesperson beside you, cold tyres, cold brakes and probably on roads you didn't know. I suspect you barely scratched it's performance abilities, accordingly I call BS on just about everything you've stated in your post above. As for your comments on trailbraking in a 911, they're not even worth dignifying with a response. PH's resident anti-GT3 troll is well and truly alive and kicking folks ! ! Demon, do us all a favour, buy the Speciale and disappear to either the PH Ferrari forum or one of the numerous other F forums, and leave us all in peace on here. Thnx ;-)

hornbaek said: I actually think that a Turbo S will probably be quicker around Castle Coombe than a "regular" GT3 given the long straights. Put it on semi-slicks, and it will beat most things!

Slippydiff said: mrdemon said: isaldiri said: Not sure if serious.....you want to take a poll of racing drivers with regards to trailbraking? Very impressive from the gt3 but autocar seem to missing rather a lot of rather obvious mistakes... Supersports on the gt3 and corsas on the speciale..?! very, I doubt you are going to be trail braking a 991 GT3, but as I have not driven one yet, hard to say if that will upset the electrics. drive the 458S and the thing just turns in, I love the way the front end works on the car. Even in the vid, the word "understeer" came up a lot. Err, as I understand it you've driven a Speciale a mere 10 miles on roadtest, and yet despite not having driven a 991 GT3, you know that it's the better car dynamically ? My guess is you drove the Speciale with an over anxious salesperson beside you, cold tyres, cold brakes and probably on roads you didn't know. I suspect you barely scratched it's performance abilities, accordingly I call BS on just about everything you've stated in your post above. As for your comments on trailbraking in a 911, they're not even worth dignifying with a response. PH's resident anti-GT3 troll is well and truly alive and kicking folks ! ! Demon, do us all a favour, buy the Speciale and disappear to either the PH Ferrari forum or one of the numerous other F forums, and leave us all in peace on here. Thnx ;-) Don't often post round here but well said.

isaldiri said: Very impressive from the gt3 but autocar seem to missing rather a lot of rather obvious mistakes... Supersports on the gt3 and corsas on the speciale..?! Aren't they equivalent tyres? Both are UHP road tyres. The Trofeo R is the Pirelli trackday equivalent of the Cup 2.

thegreenhell said: Aren't they equivalent tyres? Both are UHP road tyres. The Trofeo R is the Pirelli trackday equivalent of the Cup 2. Not quite. The speciale only comes with cup2s i believe and so far every 991 gt3 seems delivered with cup2s (not the dunlop semi slick option). Supersports are not even n rated in gt3 sizes if i am not wrong so autocar must have just buggered up their tyre descriptions, which is a bit poor..... Corsas are standard tyres on the 650 and sit between trofeos (which can't be fit to the mclaren safely at the moment) and the standard pzeros. At least autocar got one of the 3 tyres right! Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 25th October 23:33

slippy that's a bit harsh, demon raises a lot of valid points about the gt3. the point about the power output of the gt3 is something many have ignored. for the first time I can recall that the Ferrari trumps the Porsche. nothing wrong with people stating what they think needs to be improved or are we saying Porsche are no longer going to compete to be the best? you don't need to drive either car to see what's gone wrong. the Porsche is losing the tests not because of the drive but because of other factors. when you walked up to and sat inside a 997 gt3 clubsport it always felt special. the RS is not going to fix these problems, a) looking at the mule it's probably going to make them worse b) you can't buy one at retail because it's all vip invitation only b.s

i too think the 458s is basically the best of the new breed. it is a lot more money though. until the rs shows up that is, then a new round of camparo awaits but D hasn't really said anything that is different to that. I dun get the hostility.

Carl_Docklands said: for the first time I can recall that the Ferrari trumps the Porsche. Think the 430 Scuderia took care of that actually... ;-)

Slippy has always been very aggressive and blinkered. I sent him a email to layoff the abuse a bit a while back. He has his fan boys who back him up, but the only trolls here are slippy and his sheep. I am not sure why Pistonheads let abusive posts go when the media is getting very strong about abusive trolls. If it carries on, I'll document it and send a file to the police to look over. It's not only posts on the porsche section here, he follows me about in other area's and just posts abuse. Be it in the Lotus section or the supercar section, He must click on my name look where I have posted and then follows it up with troll abusive posts. The guys crazy.

mrdemon said: Slippy has always been very aggressive and blinkered. I sent him a email to layoff the abuse a bit a while back. He has his fan boys who back him up, but the only trolls here are slippy and his sheep. I am not sure why Pistonheads let abusive posts go when the media is getting very strong about abusive trolls. If it carries on, I'll document it and send a file to the police to look over. It's not only posts on the porsche section here, he follows me about in other area's and just posts abuse. Be it in the Lotus section or the supercar section, He must click on my name look where I have posted and then follows it up with troll abusive posts. The guys crazy. hilarious ! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJGjfEtJBCU

I almost posted something the other day to the effect that Slippy does seem to follow Mr D around taking shots at him like an Ex. Mr D does seem to attract some very unpleasant posts from a group of posters.

keep it lit said: hilarious ! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJGjfEtJBCU Makes you come across like a Muppet in my view.

It's all a bit childish but I can see it from Slippys side... D seems to come on here to wind up GT3 fans, why? He can't wait to tell us all the issues are cars have, why? He comes on here to tell us how much better the opposition is, why? I'm a football fan & if an opposing fan sits with the home fans telling everyone where they went wrong, he'll be very fortunate if he leaves with just some verbal abuse!! BTW, im not a football hooligan & welcome Luton fans to my beloved Hornets nest anytime

IanHg said: Makes you come across like a Muppet in my view. I don't deny it

keep it lit said: hilarious ! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sJGjfEtJBCU You may find it funny, but that was not me, and the GT3 tried to bully that Spyder off the track, the said Spyder came in the next lap, I was at that event, it seems people do play daft and stupid games be it on track and on forums. I go out to have fun and meet like minded people , but some people are mental ESP if they think it's me on track. It's neither safe or clever. A few people do ruin it here, and to then take it to a track day that guy should have been blacked flagged and sent home. In 2015 I,ll be running my gopro 4 100% of the time incase some idiots want to play silly buggers. It crazy you have to run front and rear camera's to document this other wise people would think it was made up.

I'm sorry but if I was the guy in the Spyder ID have pulled in, waited for chap to come in and knocked him out! Totally inexcusable IMO!

Slickhillsy said: I'm sorry but if I was the guy in the Spyder ID have pulled in, waited for chap to come in and knocked him out! Totally inexcusable IMO! concur...hounding someone with 3000lbs of machinery deliberately at speed.....you are asking for a world of hurt...physically....and legally.

oh my.........[props to <3mph on Rennlist....ok..this makes this RS vs 458S thing...more....difficult]

ferdi p said: It's all a bit childish but I can see it from Slippys side... D seems to come on here to wind up GT3 fans, why? He can't wait to tell us all the issues are cars have, why? He comes on here to tell us how much better the opposition is, why? I'm a football fan & if an opposing fan sits with the home fans telling everyone where they went wrong, he'll be very fortunate if he leaves with just some verbal abuse!! BTW, im not a football hooligan & welcome Luton fans to my beloved Hornets nest anytime Really I didn't interpret it that way. I don't know him or slippydiff, but it would appear that slippydiff has taken what has been said way too seriously / personally. D has a point, and has been quite factual and articulate in posting his opinion. Slippy has been an abusive idiot and WTF has that video got to do with banter about a GT3 and Speciale. Childish doesn't even come close to describing it....

Ravi355 said: WTF has that video got to do with banter about a GT3 and Speciale. Childish doesn't even come close to describing it.... more youths in a LaF https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z6yvg4kz_9g same said youths in a Spec https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wsl1uefF9Js

Fook me that LaF is something.

Slickhillsy said: Carl_Docklands said: for the first time I can recall that the Ferrari trumps the Porsche. Think the 430 Scuderia took care of that actually... ;-) Close but no cigars for the scud from the major mags. That's a whole new topic

Carl_Docklands said: Close but no cigars for the scud from the major mags. That's a whole new topic https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYAajb1p8c

Carl_Docklands said: Slickhillsy said: Carl_Docklands said: for the first time I can recall that the Ferrari trumps the Porsche. Think the 430 Scuderia took care of that actually... ;-) Close but no cigars for the scud from the major mags. That's a whole new topic Hmmmm... Evo must have their numbers wrong here then... Apparently quicker than an Enzo's (knew that anyway) and at least 1.5 sec a lap quicker than both CGT and 997 GT2... That to me is a big fat Cuban rolled on the thighs of smoking hot virgins! http://www.evo.co.uk/trackdays/trackdaycars/234178...

ferdi p said: It's all a bit childish but I can see it from Slippys side... D seems to come on here to wind up GT3 fans, why? He can't wait to tell us all the issues are cars have, why? He comes on here to tell us how much better the opposition is, why? I'm a football fan & if an opposing fan sits with the home fans telling everyone where they went wrong, he'll be very fortunate if he leaves with just some verbal abuse!! BTW, im not a football hooligan & welcome Luton fans to my beloved Hornets nest anytime It's more like being a Man Utd fan, looking at Real Madrid and saying 'how can we improve?' I remember a time when it was tough to write negative things about Porsche sports cars. Someone needs to say something, might as well be a petrol head and someone who owns and tracks his own p car. You don't get discussion of change without speaking up. Ferrari are coming out tops and we don't want to see that, do we?

keep it lit said: Carl_Docklands said: Close but no cigars for the scud from the major mags. That's a whole new topic https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYAajb1p8c Lol... Sure put a monkey in one car and a half decent driver in the other and, well, guess what happens... Are you seriously saying a 997 GT3 (RS or otherwise) would perform better than a Scud?? I've owned both back to back, where as the GT3 is brilliant and I loved it the Scud just operates at another level - across the board... First car I would class as 'bike quick' with handling to match...

Slickhillsy said: keep it lit said: Carl_Docklands said: Close but no cigars for the scud from the major mags. That's a whole new topic https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYAajb1p8c Lol... Sure put a monkey in one car and a half decent driver in the other and, well, guess what happens... Are you seriously saying a 997 GT3 (RS or otherwise) would perform better than a Scud?? I've owned both back to back, where as the GT3 is brilliant and I loved it the Scud just operates at another level - across the board... First car I would class as 'bike quick' with handling to match... hahaha

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my 2ps worth. I currently own a 996 rs and a scud and ran a 997.1 gt3 as a daily drive for 2 years. I genuinely don't think one is better than the other. Yes you have to work harder in the gt3 to get it right, but when you do it's one of the best feelings you'll get in any car. The scud is spine tingling in its delivery and it's so precise but doesn't require the same amount of driver talent to unlock it. In all honesty the scud would destroy both the 997 gt3 and 996 rs on track but I think the gt3 driver would have a bigger grin on his face as it requires so much input to get the best out of the car.

Carl_Docklands said: It's more like being a Man Utd fan, looking at Real Madrid and saying 'how can we improve?' I remember a time when it was tough to write negative things about Porsche sports cars. Someone needs to say something, might as well be a petrol head and someone who owns and tracks his own p car. You don't get discussion of change without speaking up. Ferrari are coming out tops and we don't want to see that, do we? Fair comment about the football analogy, however if Ferrari had listened to D, they'd still be offering a manual Don't agree with you Ferrari coming out on top,they operate at different price points. It's flattering that Porsche can produce a car that competes at half the price of a 458S.

Ravi355 said: my 2ps worth. I currently own a 996 rs and a scud and ran a 997.1 gt3 as a daily drive for 2 years. I genuinely don't think one is better than the other. Yes you have to work harder in the gt3 to get it right, but when you do it's one of the best feelings you'll get in any car. The scud is spine tingling in its delivery and it's so precise but doesn't require the same amount of driver talent to unlock it. In all honesty the scud would destroy both the 997 gt3 and 996 rs on track but I think the gt3 driver would have a bigger grin on his face as it requires so much input to get the best out of the car. 6RS is king and we know it

I agree re the Scud, brilliant car. Better than a 458S in my view.

BMCG said: oh my.........[props to <3mph on Rennlist....ok..this makes this RS vs 458S thing...more....difficult] Now this is a beautiful car. Love the Speciale (as much as I am a Porsche fanboy) Edited by Dr S on Sunday 26th October 18:06

keep it lit said: 6RS is king and we know it Yup there good but broaden your horizons and drive some f cars. You'll be very pleasantly surprised.

Ravi355 said: keep it lit said: 6RS is king and we know it Yup there good but broaden your horizons and drive some f cars. You'll be very pleasantly surprised. kind words & many thanks... I come from an F car family inc many factory Modena collections.. many recent years in race conditions have shown me the truth

This: "It's flattering that Porsche can produce a car that competes at half the price of a 458S" - and the fact that the GT3 is the only car you can actually use on a 105 db track day in the UK with both the 458 S and the Stradale being way too loud. .

Alpinestars said: I agree re the Scud, brilliant car. Better than a 458S in my view. Not sure about that but each to their own

keep it lit said: kind words & many thanks... I come from an F car family inc many factory Modena collections.. many recent years in race conditions have shown me the truth Fair play

Slickhillsy said: keep it lit said: Carl_Docklands said: Close but no cigars for the scud from the major mags. That's a whole new topic https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vjYAajb1p8c Lol... Sure put a monkey in one car and a half decent driver in the other and, well, guess what happens... Are you seriously saying a 997 GT3 (RS or otherwise) would perform better than a Scud?? I've owned both back to back, where as the GT3 is brilliant and I loved it the Scud just operates at another level - across the board... First car I would class as 'bike quick' with handling to match... Watch the Scud v Bike http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/newsresults...

Ravi355 said: my 2ps worth. I currently own a 996 rs and a scud and ran a 997.1 gt3 as a daily drive for 2 years. I genuinely don't think one is better than the other. Yes you have to work harder in the gt3 to get it right, but when you do it's one of the best feelings you'll get in any car. The scud is spine tingling in its delivery and it's so precise but doesn't require the same amount of driver talent to unlock it. In all honesty the scud would destroy both the 997 gt3 and 996 rs on track but I think the gt3 driver would have a bigger grin on his face as it requires so much input to get the best out of the car. Think you may be on to something here... . TBH. I'm still getting my head in to the whole paddle shift thing having loved the manual GT3 interaction... But as a tool, the Scud is shocking good...

Ah ok... of course, Must be wrong then...

Slickhillsy said: Hmmmm... Evo must have their numbers wrong here then... Apparently quicker than an Enzo's (knew that anyway) and at least 1.5 sec a lap quicker than both CGT and 997 GT2... That to me is a big fat Cuban rolled on the thighs of smoking hot virgins! http://www.evo.co.uk/trackdays/trackdaycars/234178... Evo do have their numbers wrong then as i am sure in the group test with the enzo/cgt/flemke's F1 the cgt at least was near the west circuit lap record and definitely not 1.5s off the scuderia. And yes i do actually think in the hands of a very good driver the 3.8 RS would definitely be at minimum competitive with the scuderia. For the average driver (or below average like myself!) though the scud would definitely be the faster car. Edit evo link added, odd in the scud article the cgt times were so different! http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2047... Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 26th October 18:58

isaldiri said: Slickhillsy said: Hmmmm... Evo must have their numbers wrong here then... Apparently quicker than an Enzo's (knew that anyway) and at least 1.5 sec a lap quicker than both CGT and 997 GT2... That to me is a big fat Cuban rolled on the thighs of smoking hot virgins! http://www.evo.co.uk/trackdays/trackdaycars/234178... Evo do have their numbers wrong then as i am sure in the group test with the enzo/cgt/flemke's F1 the cgt at least was near the west circuit lap record and definitely not 1.5s off the scuderia. And yes i do actually think in the hands of a very good driver the 3.8 RS would definitely be at minimum competitive with the scuderia. For the average driver (or below average like myself!) though the scud would definitely be the faster car. Edit evo link added, odd in the scud article the cgt times were so different! http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2047... Edited by isaldiri on Sunday 26th October 18:58 Scud isn't even in the article...? Also (I mentioned something earlier about monkey in one and driver in another) this isn't as scientific (if these things ever are) as a range of drivers were used so consistency is missing... If you can show me something where the 3.8RS beats an Enzo then I'll doff my cap sir...

Slickhillsy said: Scud isn't even in the article...? Also (I mentioned something earlier about monkey in one and driver in another) this isn't as scientific (if these things ever are) as a range of drivers were used so consistency is missing... If you can show me something where the 3.8RS beats an Enzo then I'll doff my cap sir... Not the enzo but in the sportauto supertest (same driver) the 3.8 rs proved faster than the scuderia both around the ring and hockenheim if i remember correctly. Not that all this laptime guff matters anyway, the scuderia is a car i really like (a good bit more than the 458) to be honest but i just don't agree that it necesarily blows the 3.8rs away as you suggested both in absolute performance or general enjoyment purely as a drivers car.

For me, finding the limits of any of these cars is frankly beyond my ability as a driver, so it ends up being as much personal preference as anything else. I have a 991RS coning hopefully, and have another one, plus others in the past. However, having driven them to the safe limits of my own ability I have also seen how they can be driven by a professional driver, in one case by a DTM driver and another by Sabine. Whole different world... I personally love the 458S, but in all honesty its just a bit out of my comfort zone price wise. For this who want to spend the money, I suspect it is an amazing car. The 650 seems to be a sort of generic,anonymous car styling-wise, without much external sense of brand identity. So, price no object I would be seriously tempted by the Ferrari.

mrdemon said: it's gets better every model but never really excels in that dept, trail braking just slows you down and you should not need to have to do it. Porsche know this and have made sure the car can corner better with real wheel steering and that seems to make the car. I am not knocking the product it's 100k cheaper and knocks out amazing times, but the 458S spanks it. No it's 1.2s faster on a 1:20 lap. I've had Pirelli Corsa, Michelin SuperSports and Michelin cups on my 911 and the Corsas at Donnington improved my lap times by nearly 2s over the SuperSports. I'd be willing to bet if the 911 was on cup 2's or Corsas it would match if not beat the Ferrari, I must also comment that adding the stickier tyre also dialled out the understeer on my 911 too. The above is based on if the 911 was truly only on MPSS when the other two cars were running semi slicks. But I will agree the 458 is a lot more special, to me the new GT3 is just numbers, the highlight of GT3's was the 4.0 RS and I'd take a 997 GT3 personally myself just more special than the new 991 even though the 991 is amazing. But for these test why don't they try a 991 turbo S on cup 2's ok it won't be as fun as the GT3 but would it be faster? Edited by Gibbo205 on Thursday 30th October 21:49

Gibbo205 said: But for these test why don't they try a 991 turbo S on cup 2's ok it won't be as fun as the GT3 but would it be faster? Edited by Gibbo205 on Thursday 30th October 21:49 I think it would be!

s2000db said: Gibbo205 said: But for these test why don't they try a 991 turbo S on cup 2's ok it won't be as fun as the GT3 but would it be faster? Edited by Gibbo205 on Thursday 30th October 21:49 I think it would be! do fancy a used 991 Turbo S (extra set of wheels with Cups for Summer), although the 991 GTS will be another great daily.

mrdemon said: it's gets better every model but never really excels in that dept, trail braking just slows you down and you should not need to have to do it. Porsche know this and have made sure the car can corner better with real wheel steering and that seems to make the car. I am not knocking the product it's 100k cheaper and knocks out amazing times, but the 458S spanks it. Interesting. Trial braking doesn't slow Lewis Hamilton down, or Alonso, or Richard Westbrook. It didn't hinder my speed much either

Steve Rance said: Interesting. Trial braking doesn't slow Lewis Hamilton down, or Alonso, or Richard Westbrook. It didn't hinder my speed much either new car laps faster with Rear wheel steering though, why brake when you don't need too ? Any form of braking is slower if one car does not need to do it ! I guess it's the 911 way and people will stick up for the understeer and just say learn to drive !!!

mrdemon said: new car laps faster with Rear wheel steering though, why brake when you don't need too ? Any form of braking is slower if one car does not need to do it ! I guess it's the 911 way and people will stick up for the understeer and just say learn to drive !!! Professional drivers use trail braking to achieve faster lap times and it's not just exclusive to 911's.

keep it lit said: Ravi355 said: keep it lit said: 6RS is king and we know it Yup there good but broaden your horizons and drive some f cars. You'll be very pleasantly surprised. kind words & many thanks... I come from an F car family inc many factory Modena collections.. many recent years in race conditions have shown me the truth +1. There's a general perception that F cars are quicker on track than their P car equivalents. Ignoring the subjective judgments of handling, looks, noise, presence and all that stuff that doesn't matter when churning out on-the-limit lap times, data and results show: - 996 Cup roughly at par with 430 Challenge cars. The Scuderia runs 20hp more than the Challenge but is 125kg heavier, so driver skill determines which of the roadgoing 6RS and Scud will be quicker on track. - 997 Cup substantially quicker than 430 Challenge. In fact, the comparison is embarrassing. The difference between 7Cup and 7Road is bigger than 6Cup vs 6Road so the comparison between F and P road cars gets a bit more complicated. Although having never compared them head to head, I'm certain I would be quicker in a 3.8RS than a Scud. The other thing I recall is 430 Challenges break a lot when competing (because they're basically a development of the road car which unlike the 6 and 7GT3 seem really unfit for purpose). And F cars are ludicrously expensive to fix. This was in a very hot climate so perhaps reliability issues in Europe are different.

Gibbo205 said: Professional drivers use trail braking to achieve faster lap times and it's not just exclusive to 911's. They don't have rear wheel steering though :-)

mrdemon said: new car laps faster with Rear wheel steering though, why brake when you don't need too ? Any form of braking is slower if one car does not need to do it ! I guess it's the 911 way and people will stick up for the understeer and just say learn to drive !!! Trail braking can do many things to a car, transfer weight, help balance, remove understeer, turn quicker etc.

DMC2 said: Trail braking can do many things to a car, transfer weight, help balance, remove understeer, turn quicker etc. Or you can fit rear wheel steer and not brake.....does all the above with no braking !

mrdemon said: Steve Rance said: Interesting. Trial braking doesn't slow Lewis Hamilton down, or Alonso, or Richard Westbrook. It didn't hinder my speed much either new car laps faster with Rear wheel steering though, why brake when you don't need too ? Any form of braking is slower if one car does not need to do it !" I guess it's the 911 way and people will stick up for the understeer and just say learn to drive !!! Sorry, but if I may be so bold as to say so, that's another one of your sweeping generalizations that just reinforces what many (all ?) on here have suspected for a long time, that being your basic lack of knowledge of 911 chassis dynamics, and in particular, the fundamentals of trail braking in a 911. My, my, small wonder you didn't enjoy 996 GT3 ownership ! Sheesh, you really shouldn't have wasted your money ! ! "Any form of braking is slower if one car does not need to do it !" is up there along with several other of your other "beliefs" : Braking : Must be slower. Cayman : Good/Fast. Faster : Must be better. 911 : Bad/Slow. PDK : Rubbish/Dull (unless fitted to a 458S, then it becomes brilliant) Teeny weeny wheel spacers fitted on the front of a Spyder (or CR) : Car endowed with Mercedes F1 WO5 like front end turn in and grip. I wonder, will you ever see that life isn't as black and white as you perceive it to be ? (except in your world, obviously) and that just because you believe something to be true (or you've convinced yourself as much) it doesn't actually mean it is true.