what do 968s go like - Page 4 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

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I am a big fan of 968,,however despite their 240bhp,they never feel particularly fast or powerful. they were the entry level Porsche at the time and their greatest asset is their handling balance. The early basic coupe or lux models as in non sport or CS don't even feel that confidence inspiring to me. If you want somethg to feel fast / powerful maybe try a 944 turbo,they may only have 10bhp more (250 pre tuning)but always give the impression of a few more under the bonnet. I am not intensionally looking to get murdered on this post,just trying to give an opinion that of the Porkers I have driven,you look at the 968 for its handling package rather than grunt.

Agree balance rather than outright grunt, is the word ref a 968. Ref power they are not that slow & no one calls the 3.2Carerra slow with a mere 230bhp or indeed the 964 with only 10bhp more as standard ie 250bhp. I'm a real 911 lover (preferably those cooled by good old fashioned air!) but a 968 CS really is is a terrific car despite a front end that looks like it has been hit with an ugly stick

thanks for the advice but i only really want it for road, so amazing track handling is futher down the list, after grunt, i think they look great a real sports coupe.

If grunts what ya want you can always track down the very very rare 968 turbo S (huge price tag tho!!) or turbo charge a standard 968 for over 400bhp.

i have even seen a turbo must be rare and probably bloody pricy, 400bhp whats the perf figures on that, spine snapping i should think!!!!

The first 968 Turbo S (chassis number WPOZZZ96ZPS890001, the white one) was for sale some time ago on mobile.de It is believed to be in not quite a good shape, having been hastily converted to 365bhp. The asking price was 65,000 Euros (£40k)... edited: chassis number WPOZZZ96ZRS890061 (the dark metallic blue car) is believed to be in the UK... >> Edited by Thom on Saturday 23 November 13:53

Don't worry about the track thing for handling, believe me you will use it every day you drive the thing. (as Dom will confirm with the RS). Yes, they were designed with the track in mind but does that mean we all drive like bitch slapped pussies on the road? Hell does it. The CS will out handle most things you meet and that makes up for a large amount of power. Agreed that despite their 240bhp they don't seem as quick as cars with similar power or similar powered air cooled stuff, but that doesn't mean they're any less a car. I think it's more the engine note that let's them down rather than speed, they don't feel slow at all just sound a bit like a Flymo. ps: Still loving it, best £10k I ever spent.

If you want V8 grunt in a 944/968 you should look at this site => www.renegadehybrids.com/944.htm

I suppose you dislike the 993 front end, then? Apart from the volumes, they're absolutely the same! Let me remind you the 968 appeared on the market before the 993 >> Edited by Thom on Monday 25th November 20:49

968 front end like a 993?? what have they been putting in your water?? so let me get this right you think a 944 front end that is smoothed out and has 928 headlights looks like a 993????

I feel i can pass comment on this as i owned a 968 back in 95,and,later owned a 1990 s2 944 turbo.The 968cs i had was an awsome car.Never failed once and i hamered the life out of it on the track.It was'nt faster in acceleration than the 944tbo but it would lap laster.It had a higher top speed and it was very easy to hit the limiter in sixth.Handling though was the reason i enjoyed the 968 so much.It was 100%controlable between understeer and oversteer and had the perfect feel through the seat of the pants.It is still to this day the best car i've driven on a wet track for the feel good factor.Suspension was also flawless,even on a b road,nothing seemed to phase it but then thats what we now expect of Porsche.A true engineering masterpiece i does feel. The 944tbo on the other hand was a bit of a different driver,handled really well a la 968 but the boost and rush of power made it a little unpredictable in the wet or when trying to balance the car on bends.There's no such thing as feathering the throttle on a 944tbo and i found i drove it like a switch when i had learned the car.Full throttle or no throttle.On the road as a normal everyday car i feel they are just great and i would have either one again given the chance.Oh,and the throttle travel in the 944tbo really mattered,as the last 3mm seemed to make a huge difference.Good fun

Better things than in yours!!! I suggest you leave your computer for a while and have a close look at both cars!! Apart frome the air vents they are the same drawing!!!!! And even a mate of mine who drives a 968 put 993 sidelights on his car: they fit perfectly!! No, it didn't happen this way: the 993 was designed before the 968 but for any reason the 968 went for sale before the 993!!! Understood now? Do you need anything more?? Maybe a clear glass of water?!

:statingtheobvious: Styling details are of course very similar, but the main difference is that the 968 headlights pop-up like the 928 whereas the 993 has fixed lights, leading to a more upright profile... :/statingtheobvious:

Have just lost a 993 and found a 968, the differences are: 1. Obviously moving headlights on 968. 2. Bonnet goes up to the windscreen on the 968, finishes at the bulkhead pannel with an air intake on the 993. 3. The bottom of the bumper is slightly different. They are very very similar, in fact when anyone asks me what they look like (people like my Mom for example who had no idea) I said my old car at the front and my old 944 Turbo at the back. Iggs - No way can you say they've been beaten with ugly sticks, well, not if you think the 993 is good looking cos they are very similar. Thom - Is that the best piccie you could find? The normal C2 993 front looks far more like a 968. The clear front indicators in fact fit straight from my 993 onto the 968 - bumper is that similar!!

Didn't the Turbo S flatnose, which was discussed a few weeks back on here and led to the 993 shape, actually use the 968 front end setup?

Erm, I think you guys need a little more bottle therapy, if you must focus on the similarity of front ends lets have a dig at the Boxster and Boxster Coupe, oh sorry, I mean 996. Let's face it, the 968 IS a Porsche clone, with the 993 panel lines and 928 lights, but it is instantly recogniseable, unlike the above where you have to wait until it wispers past to see what it was. Anyway, back to the thread, please! The 968 is a great car that is crying out for more power, however in standard form the engine is practically untuneable due to the woeful intake manifold design and the near useless variocam. We have been beavering away over the last few months in an effort to really get one cooking, and now have two options in the pipeline. The first option involves Motec and a quad throttle body set up, the second will be a supercharger. The goal for each is a minimum of 300bhp @ flywheel, so we are not messing about. So far I have the Motec system working on a Clubsport and have found 250bhp & 321Nm on a totally stock engine, intake and exhaust, but this has not been an easy trip. Anyway, I'll keep you posted with further news if there is any interest.

I'm sure there will be NineMeister as just about every article one reads about the 968 waxes lyrical about it's sweet chassis, but bemoans the (relative) lack of power. I'm sure Scottster misses the power of his 993, but surely bolting a 'blower onto the thing will make it sound even more like a hairdryer at full tilt ?

Come on chaps, it doesn't sound that bad! It is an inline 4 so the noise is never going to compare to a V or flat engine. Must be the best sounding straight 4 though surely? Its almost as smooth as a straight 6 with those balance shafts

Sorry AJ, I get a stiffy over mine still but go all limp when I hear the engine note - not good. That said, I'm sure there must be an exhaust system out there somewhere that can make it a bit meaner, it does have three litres for Gods sake so *should* sound good with the right amount of work..... C'mon Ninemeister, get yer MIG welder out and knock us up a decent system!!

I can't be arsed to waste much time in an explanation, I just dont agree with you. IMHO the 944 was a far better looking car than the 968, to 'update' a car by putting the 928 headlights on it, which originated in 1977 was a bizarre move. The 968 has a morgan Aero'esk' look at the front and I dont like the re-styled rear much either. They go great & handle fantstically I just think its not a good looking car. I still want a CS tho so I dont care to much about the looks, but its all IMHO so put ya handbags away Ref exhausts ive heard a few 944s with big exhausts but the note has never been particually lovely compared to a 911. From inside the car I think they souud pretty decent with a turbine like sound, but not many inline 4's sound paricually tuneful outside unless they rev to Bike levels. Haywood & Scott are quite a popular choice for exhausts, fitted one to a 944Turbo, huge tailpipe and it made the car a bit more characterfull & would flame out on the overrun, hmmm nice Edited to add- I sound like a right grumpy sod in my reply, what i mean is for example Scottster you love football where as I hate it. Or ref cars i like the look & shape of the E30M3 but I know you don't so its each to their own & all that eh >> Edited by iguana on Tuesday 26th November 15:32

What would you know anyway you fat green lizard!!!

I resent that, I am not fat

I'm still upset, comparing my car to a Morgan - Slag!! Just remember whose Golf is in our carpark, I may have to write 'Fat boy' down the side of it with my keys later!!

You cheeky bloody munchkin, the only reason you don't realise your car has such an ugly front end is that given your vertically challenged view on the car, you are the same height as the number plate so have never seen the front end from above

Look buddy boy, if you keep on like this I'm not going to rent Domster out as your weekend gimp at preferential rates anymore - You'll be paying full rate like Jeremy, and I'll instruct him not to perform your special illegal extras!!

....when there's a queue o' customers outside mi door, i'll get t't welder oot and start sparkin' (with pleasure). Actually we should have the prototype non cat system done in the next few weeks, but just to whet the appetite a little, below is the CAD model of our new manifold which I'm convinced will get around the biggest power bottleneck in Porsche history. >> Edited by NineMeister on Tuesday 26th November 16:48

Ninemeisters words in pictures.

Looks great - especially if we can get it in those colours!!

Sorry, I didn't really bother, was in a hurry this morning

Very nice What CAD system do you use? Got any vacancies for a Pro/Engineer user?

AJ, would that be after I make myself redundant? Thanks for the offer though. I got into Porsche's due to being bored designing things that meant nothing to me, so it is satisfying finally getting back to hardcore design where I am dreaming up life changing products (oh ok, so they're just engine parts, but in my eyes control is nothing without the power). So, sorry no vacancies just yet, but there is more interesting stuff in the pipeline, keep watching this space.

It looks more like CATIA V5...

I'm designing bits for particle physics experiments, so its not exactly what I had in mind when I wanted to be a design engineer - but its all useful experience. I always wanted to design sportscars (who doesn't? ) but you either have to be very rich or very clever to succeed doing that, and I'm neither...

Don't do yourself down AJ. Oh, and its not a great way to go about getting a job...

I had a 944 S2 (one of the last ones with the raised up 968 style rear spoiler - I think it was referred to as the one without the swimming pool on the back). I had this for 2 years, then sold it for a 968 sport. I think the changes made were subtle although nice, even the old G/F admitted she liked it. Although I was really disappointed. It felt no faster to me than the S2, I was always changing gear with that bloody 6sp box, and apart from some nice 17" rubber, didn't seem to offer much more grip than the S2. Although it did feel a damn sight stiffer on the road. I found a few problems with mine and with some shoddy work from the main dealer it came from, so I sent it back for a full refund after 4 days ownership. On the whole I was quite disappointed, as I wanted it to be a nice car. It just felt no different to a proper 944 S2.... My advice, buy a sorted late 944 S2 from a specialist, and save the extra cash. jj

"I always wanted to design sportscars (who doesn't? ) but you either have to be very rich or very clever to succeed doing that, and I'm neither... " No you don't, you just pack in your well paid engineering design contract, start your own Porsche business and 12 years later you are designing no compromise race engines. As Eddie Jordan said so well, the only way to make a small fortune from motor racing is to first start with a large one....

and just to keep Scottster happy we are now tooling up to produce a true free flow system for the 968 that offers a cat/no cat bolt in option, it will be fitted and tested on the Motec Clubsport first and should be ready in January/February 2003, expected price around £595 for a non cat full system. Never let it be said that the Gassing Station is not influential in the "real" world.

Hi all, Interesting to see this thread. I have been thinking about a 968 cs for my next car (some way off though). Only problem is the lack of horses, I like the idea of having one that would beat a 911. Ive seen some turbo/supercharger conversions out there on the web. Anyone had any experience with these conversion? Can the running gear cope with the power?

I'm fitting the very first UK supercharger conversion to a 968 in the workshop today. This is an intercooled package that we expect to deliver 300bhp with a standard engine. The transmission will cope with 400bhp, the only weak link will be the clutch at some point, but with 300-350bhp it should be fine. I'll post the results as we get them.

Colin, Was that 300 bhp at the wheels or at the crank? A 60 bhp increase doesn't seem enough after installing the Supercharger (S/C) and intercooler? Most of the US S/C companies bandy around figures in the order of a 40-50% power increase Paul - interested 944 S2 owner

Im quite envious. Im sitting in front of a computer screen whilst you are supercharging a Porsche. I know where I would rather be. Looking forward to seeing the results. What sort of boost can you run without dropping the compression ratio and will the car have to be run on super unleaded all the time to stop det? Have you got the engine on the dyno or car on the rollers so you can get some figures? Have fun. Im sure you will!

Huntley's kits are running 6psi, they claim 40% increase. www.huntleyracing.com/superchargerkitpics/index.html The thing is, you pays your money you takes your chances with things like this. If it blows up six months down the road it's your nickel. I reckon, it would be better to spend a little more early on and get the internals and engine management up to snuff, to ensure reliabillity.

Look, lets get real for once. Forget all the bull you ever read about blowers, end especially low boost kits on standard engines, they are not what you think and they do not risk engine damage if they are engineered correctly. Firstly, regarding power, if I told you it was 40%, or 50%, at the wheels, or 100bhp at the flywheel, what does it matter?? When you are marketing a blower kit you have to decide how you want to sell it, and if bullsh*t is what you want then fine, we'll go with 50% power increase. So, if you have a 240bhp engine, that means you will get 360bhp, right? Well, no actually. What this could mean is that at 4500 rpm where you had 160bhp before, you now have 240, that's 50%, but the peak gain may only be 20%. Let's face it, rash % power claims are b****cks, the only thing that matters is the difference across the range before and after, i.e. dyno test before and after and then superimpose one dyno trace over the other and look at the gain at each point in the rev range. I'm expecting 300bhp PEAK at the flywheel, goodness knows elsewhere, we'll see. Now, regarding low boost kits on the 968, hands up all that think 80bhp per litre is good for a 4 valve per cylinder variocam engine with knock control engine management. OK, hands up all that think the standard engine needs more power. Ahhh, noticing a trend here. Sorry, I'm not being fair. The bottom line is that a low boost supercharger is a device to ensure perfect volumetric efficiency (V.E.) throughout the operating range of the engine/blower, not something that forces excessive air into the cylinder (like a turbo). On a conventional normally aspirated engine, peak torque is usually achieved very close to peak V.E. Now, with a supercharged engine the usual characteristic is a totally flat torque curve, and if the torque is constant it means that the V.E. is (more or less) constant, hence gains across the board. Now, if all we are doing is ensuring perfect cylinder filling thhroughout the range, rather than just at one point in the range (follow me?) we are NOT increasing the stress on any component by maintaining constant cylinder pressures. Hence no engine work required. There is more to it than just this, the most obvvious being the power consumed by the blower (interestingly on this point most of the power consumed is reclaimed by the engine making power on the INTAKE stroke, the charge pressure pushing down the piston) but the simplification works with up to 4-5psi. With a cooled charge conversion, it is safe to run 5-6psi on stock compression provided the fuelling & ignition is optimised, and it is usual to run a rich mixture (lambda 0.8-0.85) to supress detonation and keep the exhaust gas temperature low (to protect the overworked exhaust valve), but provided these conditions are met, low boost supercharging is the perfect solution to finding power on an engine "blessed" with a poorly designed induction system. So if it's power you want, will all 968, 944S2 and 993 Variorams come on down!

(OT because not talking supercharger) Colin, Very interesting, (also your posts on 968.net) Friend of mine is planning to build a 968TS engine out of his 968 motor: keep the block, buy a '89 2.7 944 head and fit a russian Turbo ("less expensive than Garrett and better designed" he says) According to him it is one of the easiest prep which can be done because he reckons the engine management of the 968TS is the same as that of a 250bhp 951, and also because most of the essential parts can be found by Porsche: as you know all the 968TS upper engine parts are sourced from the 944 Turbo - apparently there's no need to design any intake manifold or anything else (but please correct me if I'm wrong) (only the components' required treatments seem to be an issue, though) It seems going this route may effectively be the most simple way to achieve "reasonable" power for a 968; What do you reckon? Ayway, I'm glad you're going this way; it's nice to see somebody who really bothers sweating on these wonderful cars! Keep it up! >> Edited by Thom on Saturday 30th November 13:00

Thanks Colin, it's nice to see all the bull and hype explained properly (and in a way even I can understand). The owner of your current conversion is keeping all us 944 owners updated in the PCGB email list and there are a number of interested parties. We've been discussing S/C conversions for months (but no-one has the guts to be first). Good luck - it's great to see someone in the UK trying for serious power out of the normally aspirated engines. Paul

Hi Paul, We will have a 4 days German-French meeting in May in eastern France and Germany; everything is not fully set up yet, but we would be very happy to meet British enthusiasts as well. Please see here for more info and use Google for a "translation" Looking forward to reading from you

Thom I have a 2.7 head, cam carrier and cam available if you want one, e-mail me offline if your friend is interested for his turbo conversion.

If he's interested he'll contact you himself

hello Colin I am the friend of Thom and I am looking for 2.7 liters head and cambox... Send me an email with your price Awaiting to read you Nicolas PS: Good Luck with your 4 barrel intake [email removed]

BTW who knows the exact trigger position in relation to TDC in degrees (seems to be around 40 ° +/- 4° ) ? The 968 has also a synch trigger - is it accurate enough to be used by an EMS ? The signal gap seems to be very wide to be accurate for DIS . Nicolas >> Edited by nwinkel on Sunday 1st December 12:40

Nicolas, On the Motec system that we use the crank index position is around 120 degrees, this represents the position of the missing teeth of the flywheel reference wheel relative to TDC no 1. The sync sensor on the cam only needs one "tooth" as it is there purely to indicate the ignition point of cylinder no 1, and usually the sensor is read in a "rise" mode, using the gap in the wheel to fall the signal first and let the ecu anticipate the rise coming shortly afterwards. The bottom line is that there is all you need on the standard 968 engine to run any sequential engine management package, at any rpm.

Hello My questions were based on the actual Motronic crank set-up: 60 -2 teeth and TDC 1 after 6 teeth - TDC seems to be read on the falling edge of the 6th tooth but I wanted to know the exact position of the sensor: - If crank is at TDC 1 what is the relative position of tthe sensor ? Or in the other way when the EMS receive the signal ? When sensor is in the middle of the 2 missing teeth or at the rising edge od the 1st tooth after the gap of the 2 missing teeth ? On the Stock 968 you have a synch cam trigger but without teeth but with a hole on a plain disc (call you that a cup) so the ems receive the signal at the falling in the hole or at the rising (sensor reading again the plain cup...) Thank's in advance BTW what do you think of the DTA P8PRO seems to be a nice system but I am troubled by the TPS/RPM mapping against MAP/TPS/RPM used more often for a turbocharged engine ...

On the 068 engine we are running on Motec, the TDC offset of the 1st tooth after the gap is 120 degrees before TDC #1. This is known as the crank index position or crip. The sync signal is measured on the rise after the gap, it uses the fall to anticipate the rise in the case of the 968 & 944S/S2 engine. "BTW what do you think of the DTA P8PRO" Never used it, never will, I understand Motec and my life is too short to look at similar alternatives. It will probably be ok, but I am not the man to ask. "I am troubled by the TPS/RPM mapping against MAP/TPS/RPM used more often for a turbocharged engine ..." On a turbo engine, you will get achieve the best compromise by 3D mapping: fuel against throttle position/rpm with MAP correction ignition against MAP/rpm. That's it, no more specifics please, I worked hard to find all this out!

Ok thank's for your info Colin... I understand you ,everybody have its experience , it is time consuming and worth a lot of money especially if it's your job. Best regards awaiting your email for the stuff... Nicolas

9M, What's the latest on this one ? I'm gonna be looking for more power for my CS soon and I'd like to know all my options. If you prefer, I can mail you offline ?

HG How are you getting on with the new car? I would be fascinated to hear your thoughts of the 968 after coming from a 996.....More power already?

Sad to say but the only best option to get significantly more power on a 968 is to sell it for a 911! All NA Porsche 4 cylinders are extremely - if not impossible - difficult to tune for reasonable costs.

CS, I'm loving it. I wanted something with some character and it's certainly got that. The handling is sublime and easily matches the 996 (with 18" wheels and PSM) in that department. It's definitely gonna be doing a few track days this year. The ride quality is about the same as well. However, I'm not going over 4K revs until the belts and chain have been done (2 1/2 weeks and counting) so I can't comment on straight line speed at the moment. It doesn't feel as slow as I was led to believe it would, by some of the comments on previous threads. Of course more power ! At the very least, a chip, a sports exhaust and a K&N. Should be good for 20-30 bhp ? Anybody know of anything else I can do other than the supercharger/turbo options, which I haven't discounted yet by the way. Thom, stop being so defeatist. I take your point re reasonable costs but I'd probably be willing to spend up to £5K on a really good supercharger solution.

I am not being defeatist, this is just a fact - but it certainly does not mean I will swap my 944 for that that absolute piece of that the 911 can be. IMO you'd be better off building a 968TS-spec 3l turbo...

Yeah, a turbo engine probably makes more sense than a supercharger. Plenty of old Turbo lumps ratting around in dismantlers.

how fast and powerfull are they? i like the look of them and they seem rare, i currently drive a 350 tvr, would i be wise to upgrade to a 968? thanks