Any converts from Manual to pdk here? - Page 5 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

As per the title, interested to hear if any die-hard manual shift drivers have converted to pdk and actually enjoy it as much as or more than a manual old school shift, which to me has always been part of the fast-motoring experience. I am on the hunt for an 'R' but the better spec or colours tend to be on the PDK versions and read some previous comments about the PDK being quicker anyway. I know I really need to try one myself but they always tend to be 100+ miles away. Your thoughts?...

MJ911 said: As per the title, interested to hear if any die-hard manual shift drivers have converted to pdk and actually enjoy it as much as or more than a manual old school shift, which to me has always been part of the fast-motoring experience. I am on the hunt for an 'R' but the better spec or colours tend to be on the PDK versions and read some previous comments about the PDK being quicker anyway. I know I really need to try one myself but they always tend to be 100+ miles away. Your thoughts?... Me for one!! My first two Boxsters were manual, the second one had the short shift linkage, great shifts, especially the second one. Third Porsche was a 987/2 Cayman S which I had PDK primarily because SWMBO preferred driving autos as we thought the Cayman would be our second car ( that didn't work out - but another long story). The good side of the Cayman debacle was getting PDK, really loved it, so fast! Then went to a pre-owned Carrera S with PDK and I've now recently taken delivery of a Boxster GTS. The transmission on the latest generation cars is even better than in the first and I honestly would not consider going back to manual. It's both faster and more economical. Yes I did initially is the more involved interaction with the manual and clutch pedal, but no longer!!

Here we go again.............

I like both, but for me the whole driving experience with PDKs is more fun. Some may disagree but that's fine by me.

As an Ex Manual Cayman S owner, having driven a new Cayman S with PDK, no contest for me, PDK wins hands down, but each to his own and all that

Ok I'll buck the trend here. I see Porsche (well the sportier versions at least) primarily as fun/sports cars and as such rev matching, H&T are an essential ingredients in the process of having fun whilst driving. If the car is multi-functional (Daily drive, Mrs use...) then I can see why PDK may swing you. It sounds from your question though that you are buying the car for the former reason and therefore I think you may find it a little tricky parting with the third pedal.

I have owned manual and PDK now, I never thought I would come away from manual; but the PDK box in the 981 (GTS) is just so good and fast, for me at least using the paddles in manual mode makes the power, gearshift and performance so accessible. On the 981 there is also lots of comment on the gear ratios being too long, the PDK tightens this feel in the real world driving. I spend several good hours driving both the manual and PDK as was so unsure about changing away from a manual as I swore you could not enjoy driving without one, in the end my PDK ownership probebrly shows that I truly believe that PDK is just so much better in terms of performance. The added bonus of living near London also offers the auto mode when stuck in traffic it's daily. The only real criticisms I can honestly say with the latest box are; 1. Unlike the GT3, the PDK box has "creep" I'm not sure I like this, would rather it didn't. 2. I don't understand the relevance of the "kick down" feature in auto mode, I think this must be for the most lazy of people that suddenly want to mash from a high gear to a low gear at moments notice. I always drive in manual mode and enjoy retaining control of the gears (unless on motorway for MPG) however the pros are just so much better than even a short shift manual IMO 1. Lighten fast gear changes, making all the performance so accessible even for a ham fisted driver like me. Ha! And more importantly offers protection against over revs 2. The throttle blipping is taken care for you, in a 981 GTS combined with PSE, it's an addictive experience that you will just want to repeat again and again, it makes me feel like I'm driving a race car and can't stop smiling. 3. Auto mode this there when required for just a to b drives, with an easy 35mpg possible. In my manual I could never it into the 30's. Maybe that's the absence of the 7th gear or just the natural nature of my driving style, which the PDK balances better for me. hope you find this post useful

Richie200 said: Ok I'll buck the trend here. I see Porsche (well the sportier versions at least) primarily as fun/sports cars and as such rev matching, H&T are an essential ingredients in the process of having fun whilst driving. If the car is multi-functional (Daily drive, Mrs use...) then I can see why PDK may swing you. It sounds from your question though that you are buying the car for the former reason and therefore I think you may find it a little tricky parting with the third pedal. +1 I would say it also depends on driving ability / driving style and how you get your enjoyment from driving. Some will have a weekend/sports car and not be interested in the extra effort of engaging via H&T and may get their enjoyment from being in the car rather than driving the car if that makes sense. For others the challenge of mastering the 3 pedals will be a significant part of the driving experience. P.s. Added to say in answer to the question, it's a No. For a daily drive though I can see why pdk has its appeal. Edited by XGT on Monday 27th April 15:31

Great answers all, thanks a lot. Definite food for thought. Useage would be predominantly daily use on good rural A-roads with about 5 trackdays a year and some euro-touring. I have been driving air cooled 911's for the last 10 years hence my apprehension at converting to a PDK car! but I am not averse to newer technology as long as it doesn't dilute the driving experience too much.

XGT said: +1 I would say it also depends on driving ability / driving style and how you get your enjoyment from driving. Some will have a weekend/sports car and not be interested in the extra effort of engaging via H&T and may get their enjoyment from being in the car rather than driving the car if that makes sense. For others the challenge of mastering the 3 pedals will be a significant part of the driving experience. P.s. Added to say in answer to the question, it's a No. For a daily drive though I can see why pdk has its appeal. Edited by XGT on Monday 27th April 15:31 And for others there is certainly a desire to own a car for weekend use to enjoy the overall driving experience which does not necessarily also require a manual gearbox!

Any converts from Manual to pdk here? not a chance, esp on the R you want to buy. quote 2 "better spec or colours tend to be on the PDK versions " that's because the seller are board s tless of them and sell them on after a short while, always a PDK R or Spyder for sale, not many manual cars, says it all really.

MJ911 said: As per the title, interested to hear if any die-hard manual shift drivers have converted to pdk and actually enjoy it as much as or more than a manual old school shift, which to me has always been part of the fast-motoring experience. I am on the hunt for an 'R' but the better spec or colours tend to be on the PDK versions and read some previous comments about the PDK being quicker anyway. I know I really need to try one myself but they always tend to be 100+ miles away. Your thoughts?... YES ME. Well I previously had 2 manual Porsches, then I bought a PDK , the box as an auto is as good as I have driven and in sport it does pretty much everything you would do if it was a manual,HOWEVER after 10 months in Pdk my conclusion is this , the PDK for 80% of the time is fine but on a spirited drive I really missed the manual, I also found myself driving the pdk car like an old man just pottering around in it I even got 42mpg one day . 3 weeks ago I went out and bought a 981 3.4S and I hung on til I found a manual (they are nearly all pdk for sale) I wasn't sure at first as it feels slower compared to the pdk due to the gearing but have now done 1500 miles in it and so far I don't miss the PDK at all , I don't find it a chore driving the manual in traffic and I'm enjoying driving this car much more than the auto, I find myself driving this harder, a lot of it is driver involvement having to think about gear selection and heeling and toeing with sports exhaust on is addictive , the auto to me doesn't lend itself as well to the sports exhaust unless in sports plus mode. I don't think there is a right and a wrong here, I was getting sick of trying to find a speccy manual and was considering a couple of pdks but in my heart I knew it wasnt what i wanted and I am so pleased I hung on for the manual and the way I feel about the two gearboxes is buy a Manual car if you want to drive the car, an Auto if you want to be driven. Edited by JeffC on Monday 27th April 17:26

Sometimes I would like PDK when stuck in traffic during the 9-5 etc., but then all's it takes is a few miles of empty tarmac and I think "WOW WOW WOW! This is amazing, WOW", followed by "why would anyone buy an automatic when they can have a manual! MANUWELL FOR LIFE!

BGTS is my first Porsche, with my first PDK. Absolutely brilliant gearbox, lightning quick changes and close to the rev limit with PSE the sound becomes an addiction. Easily the best dual clutch gearbox I've used.

here. Loving PDK on my 981 S. Very much converted. I guess if it was just a weekend car (it isnt) it might be different, but I love being able to use it like an auto when the traffic is s t, and the speed of changes when I am havig fun.

My CGTS has PDK and that was one of the best decisions I made. It beats manual in every way. Manual is old slow and a PITA IMO. My OPC has told me around 90% of new cars are PDK. That says it all really.

My CGTS has PDK and that was one of the best decisions I made. It beats manual in every way. Manual is old slow and a PITA IMO. My OPC has told me around 90% of new cars are PDK. That says it all really.

went pdk because initially really impressed when I first drove one, then back to manual for my next one because I just got a bit bored with it after a while.

Budweiser said: My CGTS has PDK and that was one of the best decisions I made. It beats manual in every way. Manual is old slow and a PITA IMO. My OPC has told me around 90% of new cars are PDK. That says it all really. That tells me only 10% of Porsche buyers today want to be involved as much as possible in the whole driving experience (well what's left of it after you consider: Electric handbrake, E-PAS, PTV, TC...). The majority couldn't give a toss.

Do people really care about the speed of the gear changes? What tangible difference does it make? Not once have I changed gear in my cayman and wished it was faster.

If you don't personally think driving an auto loses any sense of fun in driving then PDK is good. Otherwise especially given the choice it's a no brainer to go for a manual IMO as they are just more interesting cars to drive generally.

MJ911 said: As per the title, interested to hear if any die-hard manual shift drivers have converted to pdk and actually enjoy it as much as or more than a manual old school shift, which to me has always been part of the fast-motoring experience. I am on the hunt for an 'R' but the better spec or colours tend to be on the PDK versions and read some previous comments about the PDK being quicker anyway. I know I really need to try one myself but they always tend to be 100+ miles away. Your thoughts?... Not pdk but i loved the shift in my f10 M5 (arguably better than pdk). Im a diehard manual boffin so never thought id say this but cant want to own more cars with a dct that good. Not as involving but strangely just as delightful.

jackal said: Not pdk but i loved the shift in my f10 M5 (arguably better than pdk). Im a diehard manual boffin so never thought id say this but cant want to own more cars with a dct that good. Not as involving but strangely just as delightful. PDK, DSG, DCT, S-Tronic, surely all dual clutch and thus intrinsically all the same ? After three years and 30k miles with the SMG 'box in the CSL, I admit I'm an early flappy paddle convert, but I find all the modern dual clutch 'boxes interminably dull, they're just too accomplished, so much so they may as well be left in full auto mode, whereas finessing the older SMG and S-Tronic 'boxes makes them more engaging and thus fun to use.

Slippydiff said: PDK, DSG, DCT, S-Tronic, surely all dual clutch and thus intrinsically all the same ? After three years and 30k miles with the SMG 'box in the CSL, I admit I'm an early flappy paddle convert, but I find all the modern dual clutch 'boxes interminably dull, they're just too accomplished, so much so they may as well be left in full auto mode, whereas finessing the older SMG and S-Tronic 'boxes makes them more engaging and thus fun to use. That's a bit like saying all cars are the same because they've got an engine and four wheels! The theory of how a double clutch 'box works (a Porsche invention by the way) is the same of course, but. going to extremes to illustrate the point a double clutch box in say a Ferrari and a Skoda are very different beasts, I'm not talking gear ratios but the software that controls the inner workings is unique to each manufacturer. I can tell you categorically that a double clutch box in say an Audi is massively inferior to that in a Porsche. Even with Porsche the PDK 'box in the latest 981 / 991 Porsche's are a significant improvement over 986 / 997 models, faster shifting, smoother and more intuitive than the previous generation cars!

Slippydiff said: PDK, DSG, DCT, S-Tronic, surely all dual clutch and thus intrinsically all the same ? After three years and 30k miles with the SMG 'box in the CSL, I admit I'm an early flappy paddle convert, but I find all the modern dual clutch 'boxes interminably dull, they're just too accomplished, so much so they may as well be left in full auto mode, whereas finessing the older SMG and S-Tronic 'boxes makes them more engaging and thus fun to use. I would take an SMG/single clutch flappy paddle any day over PDK, far move rewarding and entertaining. E60 M5 gearbox oh my!!!

SkinnyPete said: I would take an SMG/single clutch flappy paddle any day over PDK, far move rewarding and entertaining. In what way?

I'm a happy convert, but I'm not daft enough to bother rationalising it in here.

I don't think you have to be a convert to PDK from manual - to me that implies you'd never want a manual again in the future. However, I do think that for enjoyment and driving experience you shouldn't rule out a PDK.

dreamcar said: That's a bit like saying all cars are the same because they've got an engine and four wheels! The theory of how a double clutch 'box works (a Porsche invention by the way) is the same of course, but. going to extremes to illustrate the point a double clutch box in say a Ferrari and a Skoda are very different beasts, I'm not talking gear ratios but the software that controls the inner workings is unique to each manufacturer. I can tell you categorically that a double clutch box in say an Audi is massively inferior to that in a Porsche. Even with Porsche the PDK 'box in the latest 981 / 991 Porsche's are a significant improvement over 986 / 997 models, faster shifting, smoother and more intuitive than the previous generation cars! Thanks for the superfluous PDK history lesson if I were standing in front of you' I'd call you a patronising tw*t, but as this is the slightly surreal world of the internet forum, I'll forgive/ignore the comment As for all the other stuff : Potaatoes, potatoes, tomaatoes, tomatoes. The dual clutch concept removes any skill from the process of changing gear. Argue the semantics, don't argue the semantics, it's an incontrovertible fact irrespective of the lengths you want to go to disprove it.

sidicks said: However, I do think that for enjoyment and driving experience you shouldn't rule out a PDK. ...or rule out a manual! This debate will go on for ever. Each should go for what they themselves prefer without decrying the other, just because it isn't for them.

nsm3 said: I'm a happy convert, but I'm not daft enough to bother rationalising it in here. I admire your brevity

dreamcar said: sidicks said: However, I do think that for enjoyment and driving experience you shouldn't rule out a PDK. ...or rule out a manual! This debate will go on for ever. Each should go for what they themselves prefer without decrying the other, just because it isn't for them. I definitely agree. Just wanted to make it clear that (IMO) it doesn't mean, as some might suggest, that you have to have a manual if you love driving...

sidicks said: In what way? Slippydiff said: After three years and 30k miles with the SMG 'box in the CSL, I admit I'm an early flappy paddle convert, but I find all the modern dual clutch 'boxes interminably dull, they're just too accomplished, so much so they may as well be left in full auto mode, whereas finessing the older SMG and S-Tronic 'boxes makes them more engaging and thus fun to use.

Slippydiff said: sidicks said: In what way? Slippydiff said: After three years and 30k miles with the SMG 'box in the CSL, I admit I'm an early flappy paddle convert, but I find all the modern dual clutch 'boxes interminably dull, they're just too accomplished, so much so they may as well be left in full auto mode, whereas finessing the older SMG and S-Tronic 'boxes makes them more engaging and thus fun to use. Fair enough - I tried the SMG in an M3 and hated it, so i bought a manual instead, but that was over 10 years ago.

Personally, i think people should share their car usage before stating their opinion. Sure, a manual makes perfect sense if it is a weekend car, doing 6,000 miles a year on Welsh b-roads. However, using a clutch everyday isn't so much fun doing 30,000 miles a year in start/stop traffic in London. Doesn't mean you hate manuals or aren't an enthusiast because you choose PDK for 90% of your journeys!

sidicks said: Fair enough - I tried the SMG in an M3 and hated it, so i bought a manual instead, but that was over 10 years ago. Sept 2008. Used CSL delivered on a Tuesday lunchtime, Thursday morning saw it headed towards the Chunnel for a 12 day 4,000 mile Eurohoon. That's the way to "try an SMG" Even a day spent trying the SMG isn't sufficient. It's a risky commitment, but you'd have to buy one and give it a month. I had a wobble on day two, but once I'd done the Col de Turini and Mount Ventoux, I NEVER looked back.EVER. Just never drive an S_Tronic or SMG/SMG2 in auto mode, they're utterly hopeless.

I drove manual for most of 40 years. Alfa, BMW, VW, Datsun,914, etc. Then I borrowed my wife's slush-o-matic for two days to go to and from work in stop and go and mostly stop traffic and realized how much more relaxed I was on arriving home. I was a convert and both my Boxsters were TIPs. Now I live in a place where 3 cars at a stoplight is a traffic jam. Much more conducive to a manual again. She learned on a tractor in her fathers fields between hay bales. But ferrying kids to and fro in traffic got her started on autos and she has stayed there ever since. My kids wouldn't know what a clutch was. Most don't. I've been in places where of a dozen people, I was the only one who knew how to drive a manual. Horses for courses. And if you disagree, that's OK too.

I still think it's down to individual driving skill/style. Many don't want to put in the effort or learn how to drive a manual well and would rather think they are driving faster rather than feel they are driving well if that makes sense. And there's nothing wrong with that, just different folks have different ways of enjoying their driving experience. I think everybody will have a definite and individual answer. And the problem is unless you really know how / want to learn how to drive a manual, and we are talking a small percentage I think, then it's easy to be converted to pdk as it is for those who choose a Porsche for a daily drive. For those that can really master a manual (or enjoy trying) then it's likely to be a deal breaker IMO. P.s. Lucky enough to have a GT4 slot which I am very excited about, if it was pdk only then I would have given it up. The relevance here to OP is that I personally wouldn't consider a CR pdk.

As an expat Aussie now living in the UK these past three years, I am astonished just how Brits seem to be locked into a 1970's time warp when it comes to car transmission. In the USA, Canada, NZ and Australia almost every car sold is an automatic or DCT and manuals are usually special order. Kids learn to drive in automatics, rightly so, because they are much safer to drive by a massive margin and the old adage "what if they need to drive a manual?" is mostly irrelevant. My British wife's 18yo son is learning to drive, in a manual (sigh!) of course, because that sadly is the norm here these days. The fact that he has almost zero driving aptitude, lives in a rural area where bikers use A-roads like F1 circuits, and struggles to do right-hand turns safely without either stalling or burning the clutch is largely ignored, because "he needs to learn to drive a manual". This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars. On top of that, the corrupt insurance industry here forces 18yo kids to buy clapped out decade-old 1.0 litre Corsas that have worn clutches and are accidents waiting to happen. Why not reward them for buying a modern, newer car with auto transmission and all the safety features that save lives? So having driven manuals for the better part of 25 years then getting osteoarthritis in my left knee, my move to automatics/DCTs was very welcome and did not dilute the driving experience in any way whatsoever. In fact with PDK I can choose to be in whichever gear I want to be at any time, for as long as I want, and even rev to the limiter without intervention by electronics. If that's not control, what is? I can be in exactly the gear I choose when approaching a corner and exiting it. So let the PH anoraks take the higher ground and preach their manual elitism, but the fact is that technology and the world has moved on and I am sure that those 10% of Porsche buyers who insist on a manual enjoy the experience, but don't let them deter you from enjoying a PDK.

koorby said: My British wife's 18yo son is learning to drive, in a manual (sigh!) of course, because that sadly is the norm here these days. The fact that he has almost zero driving aptitude, lives in a rural area where bikers use A-roads like F1 circuits, and struggles to do right-hand turns safely without either stalling or burning the clutch is largely ignored, because "he needs to learn to drive a manual". This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars. On top of that, the corrupt insurance industry here forces 18yo kids to buy clapped out decade-old 1.0 litre Corsas that have worn clutches and are accidents waiting to happen. Why not reward them for buying a modern, newer car with auto transmission and all the safety features that save lives? So having driven manuals for the better part of 25 years then getting osteoarthritis in my left knee, my move to automatics/DCTs was very welcome and did not dilute the driving experience in any way whatsoever. In fact with PDK I can choose to be in whichever gear I want to be at any time, for as long as I want, and even rev to the limiter without intervention by electronics. If that's not control, what is? I can be in exactly the gear I choose when approaching a corner and exiting it. So let the PH anoraks take the higher ground and preach their manual elitism, but the fact is that technology and the world has moved on and I am sure that those 10% of Porsche buyers who insist on a manual enjoy the experience, but don't let them deter you from enjoying a PDK. Here in the UK we like driving manuals, we also offer the test in auto if thats preferred so he has a choice. Fact is even if he passes his test in a manual he can drive an auto whenever he likes, the other way around he's stuck with an auto and the kid is s t out of luck if he ever wants to own some nice classics one day. Some people can only afford a 1.0 Corsa manual car, thats perfectly fine for a learner driver IMO and was for the vast majority. The idea that kids should be driving around in new expensive cars is exactly one of the reasons why this country ended up in the financial state it's in now with people borrowing to achieve what they believe is 'normal' or keeping up with the Jones'. I guess we could all revert to driving around in a clapped out Holden auto to save our knees...wow what a prospect.

koorby said: As an expat Aussie now living in the UK these past three years, I am astonished just how Brits seem to be locked into a 1970's time warp when it comes to car transmission. In the USA, Canada, NZ and Australia almost every car sold is an automatic or DCT and manuals are usually special order. Kids learn to drive in automatics, rightly so, because they are much safer to drive by a massive margin and the old adage "what if they need to drive a manual?" is mostly irrelevant. This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars. Weird. And utter bulls t. Driving standards are far better in the UK than in Australia. Despite having dramatically less busy roads, and far less (essentially zero) discretion around speed limits compared to the UK, road deaths in Australia are 60% higher! The only relevance of manual vs auto transmission would be theorising that the prevelance of the latter in Australia encourages laziness - leading to being inattentive - in drivers. Edited to add - data here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_... Edited by braddo on Tuesday 28th April 10:16

anonymous said: [redacted] Well, for me it is that simple - you've put yourself in the first camp! You have the benefit of using a car when you choose to.

koorby said: As an expat Aussie now living in the UK these past three years, I am astonished just how Brits seem to be locked into a 1970's time warp when it comes to car transmission. In the USA, Canada, NZ and Australia almost every car sold is an automatic or DCT and manuals are usually special order. Kids learn to drive in automatics, rightly so, because they are much safer to drive by a massive margin and the old adage "what if they need to drive a manual?" is mostly irrelevant. My British wife's 18yo son is learning to drive, in a manual (sigh!) of course, because that sadly is the norm here these days. The fact that he has almost zero driving aptitude, lives in a rural area where bikers use A-roads like F1 circuits, and struggles to do right-hand turns safely without either stalling or burning the clutch is largely ignored, because "he needs to learn to drive a manual". This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars. On top of that, the corrupt insurance industry here forces 18yo kids to buy clapped out decade-old 1.0 litre Corsas that have worn clutches and are accidents waiting to happen. Why not reward them for buying a modern, newer car with auto transmission and all the safety features that save lives? So having driven manuals for the better part of 25 years then getting osteoarthritis in my left knee, my move to automatics/DCTs was very welcome and did not dilute the driving experience in any way whatsoever. In fact with PDK I can choose to be in whichever gear I want to be at any time, for as long as I want, and even rev to the limiter without intervention by electronics. If that's not control, what is? I can be in exactly the gear I choose when approaching a corner and exiting it. So let the PH anoraks take the higher ground and preach their manual elitism, but the fact is that technology and the world has moved on and I am sure that those 10% of Porsche buyers who insist on a manual enjoy the experience, but don't let them deter you from enjoying a PDK. Well said koorby!!!!

anonymous said: [redacted] Alternatively ... if you've put a lot of time and effort into polishing your own helmet, it's because you enjoy the involvement and satisfaction it brings and thus the odds decrease that you'll trade that for the ease and efficiencies of getting a hand-job from, like, a real woman. Just sayin' k

koorby said: As an expat Aussie now living in the UK these past three years, I am astonished just how Brits seem to be locked into a 1970's time warp when it comes to car transmission. In the USA, Canada, NZ and Australia almost every car sold is an automatic or DCT and manuals are usually special order. Kids learn to drive in automatics, rightly so, because they are much safer to drive by a massive margin and the old adage "what if they need to drive a manual?" is mostly irrelevant. My British wife's 18yo son is learning to drive, in a manual (sigh!) of course, because that sadly is the norm here these days. The fact that he has almost zero driving aptitude, lives in a rural area where bikers use A-roads like F1 circuits, and struggles to do right-hand turns safely without either stalling or burning the clutch is largely ignored, because "he needs to learn to drive a manual". This completely false inherited belief is creating a nation of numpty incompetent drivers who are forever in the wrong gear, slow to get off the mark at lights and generally miserable in their manual city cars. On top of that, the corrupt insurance industry here forces 18yo kids to buy clapped out decade-old 1.0 litre Corsas that have worn clutches and are accidents waiting to happen. Why not reward them for buying a modern, newer car with auto transmission and all the safety features that save lives? So having driven manuals for the better part of 25 years then getting osteoarthritis in my left knee, my move to automatics/DCTs was very welcome and did not dilute the driving experience in any way whatsoever. In fact with PDK I can choose to be in whichever gear I want to be at any time, for as long as I want, and even rev to the limiter without intervention by electronics. If that's not control, what is? I can be in exactly the gear I choose when approaching a corner and exiting it. So let the PH anoraks take the higher ground and preach their manual elitism, but the fact is that technology and the world has moved on and I am sure that those 10% of Porsche buyers who insist on a manual enjoy the experience, but don't let them deter you from enjoying a PDK. I disagree with most of what you have written, but for me the sentences in bold are important and consistent with my views.

dreamcar said: Well said koorby!!!! well said braddo and beanoir !!!!

braddo said: Weird. And utter bulls t. Driving standards are far better in the UK than in Australia. Despite having dramatically less busy roads, and far less (essentially zero) discretion around speed limits compared to the UK, road deaths in Australia are 60% higher! The only relevance of manual vs auto transmission would be theorising that the prevelance of the latter in Australia encourages laziness - leading to being inattentive - in drivers. Edited to add - data here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_... Edited by braddo on Tuesday 28th April 10:16 You having to be kidding right? UK drivers are some of the most inattentive and inept drivers I have encountered (present PH company excluded of course). Take for instance how almost nobody uses indicators, how almost nobody understands how roundabouts work, how almost everyone over the age of 50 is stuck driving at 45mph whether they are in a 30/50/60/70 zone. Don't get me started on white van men and how tradies park anywhere on narrow roads causing untold traffic blockage and dangerous overtaking situations. Yes I am generalising but this is my experience here in the south of England. The reason road deaths are lower in the UK is because the roads are so ridiculously congested that the average speed is so much lower, especially on A/B roads. Also the nanny-state government culture that is in Australia is likely the cause of road accidents, not speed. I spent most of my time in Oz monitoring the speedometer instead of relaxing in the drive and going with the traffic flow. There are hidden speed cameras every few miles and this leads to erratic driving by paranoid citizens. Wikipedia is hardly a term of reference mate, my 32 years driving experience in Oz is a little more trustworthy than that

nsm3 said: I'm a happy convert, but I'm not daft enough to bother rationalising it in here. so true .... in fact don't bother discussing anything on the internet because its so much better talking in real life you know, like, down the pub with your mates where you can get some proper feedback and a real converstaion the internet is for cretins and people who just want to throw a bit of anger around

koorby said: "how almost everyone over the age of 50 is stuck driving at 45mph whether they are in a 30/50/60/70 zone. " I take offence there !it's mainly the idiots on there mobile phones texting and the 4x4 crowd! "Don't get me started on white van men and how tradies park anywhere on narrow roads causing untold traffic blockage and dangerous overtaking situations. " Where else are they meant to park when delivering I tend to find'tradies'the better drivers that's why I hate driving at weekends because all the idiots who do not drive all week come out! "Yes I am generalising but this is my experience here in the south of England." And I live in South of England "Also the nanny-state government culture " That was mainly Queensland pubs use to shut Sunday lunch time for the rest of the day when I was there 28 years ago,loved the N.T roads myself! Edited by itsybitsy on Tuesday 28th April 13:11

great answers all (apart from page 3 where it de-generates into a slanging match!). Seems a pretty even split on opinions. It has opened my mind to at least trying a PDK variant rather than just dismissing it, so hopefully I will get to try out both and make my own conclusions. I still err towards a manual but hope to be suitably impressed with a PDK too as it gives me more options in the buying market. One other question related to a PDK, I assume it cannot be over-revved? ie when I read of cayman/boxsters being bought, its often mentioned on here about getting it inspected at an OPC for over-revs. Guess an OPC inspection would still be required though on something like an R just for piece of mind. Edited by MJ911 on Tuesday 28th April 13:18

MJ911 said: One other question related to a PDK, I assume it cannot be over-revved? ie when I read of cayman/boxsters being bought, its often mentioned on here about getting it inspected at an OPC for over-revs. Guess an OPC inspection would still be required though on something like an R just for piece of mind. Edited by MJ911 on Tuesday 28th April 13:18 Without checking the book of words to be sure I believe in sport plus there is no over rev limit.

dreamcar said: Without checking the book of words to be sure I believe in sport plus there is no over rev limit. The PDK won't let you change down if this would cause a 'money shift' and if you hit the limiter on the way up, you'll just stay there, banging the limiter but not doing any damage.

koorby said: ...Wikipedia is hardly a term of reference mate, my 32 years driving experience in Oz is a little more trustworthy than that Where did you spend most of your time driving? Unless it was around Syndey/Melbourne/Brisbane it won't be comparable to SE England. My own experience and those of Aussie family and friends around SE Qld and Sydney paint a very different picture to your rosy view (especially when they see the driving in the UK themselves). In any case, the manual gearbox has no real bearing on driving standards in the UK. For me, for a fun car I only want manual and that won't change. It doesn't mean I couldn't enjoy a PDK car, but I would prefer manual.

jackal said: so true .... in fact don't bother discussing anything on the internet because its so much better talking in real life you know, like, down the pub with your mates where you can get some proper feedback and a real converstaion the internet is for cretins and people who just want to throw a bit of anger around That is b ks what sort of "mates" have you got who want to talk about PDK vs manual in the pub ? Far better on forums with like minded "specialist" nutters.... + its harmless.

TB993tt said: That is b ks what sort of "mates" have you got who want to talk about PDK vs manual in the pub ? Far better on forums with like minded "specialist" nutters.... + its harmless. Nothing quite like "keyboard Warriors"!!! I think I might start a new thread extolling the virues of Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes - that also normally starts the fur flying... Edited by dreamcar on Tuesday 28th April 15:25

dreamcar said: Without checking the book of words to be sure I believe in sport plus there is no over rev limit. There is a rev limiter for sure. In Sport Plus mode using manual shift I bounced off the rev limiter a few days ago when departing from a set of lights over-enthusiastically (my bad). It's just a software routine that protects the engine revving past 8,000 rpm; when you hit the limiter the throttle will retard in bursts.

dreamcar said: Without checking the book of words to be sure I believe in sport plus there is no over rev limit. Wrong for the 987 at least - the box never allows a "money shift". It does, however, let you smack right into the hard limiter (at least sometimes), which is nice. If Porsche insists on making cars that only rev to 7,200 revs and are only fun above 4k, this will happen PDK is fine. It is streets ahead of an old school auto (which, to my mind, includes even the best ZF box) and any other dual clutch box that I have used. But its an auto at the end of the day. It knocks 10-20% off the enjoyment of a spirited drive and makes the car stupidly fast through the gears, which isn't a good thing given that these cars can barely be revved on most roads if you like having a driving licence. Exiting a tight corner on a B-road in a manual Cayman, I would smash through 2nd, cack up the change to 3rd and find myself still going 60-70mph before braking for the next corner and cacking up the change down, but I would have a lot more fun than mashing the pedal in a PDK car and ending up at 90mph before flicking the paddles twice to get back to 2nd for the next corner. I can heel and toe about as well as most PHers can think and write, so I am not writing from the position of "Driving God". Ultimately, driving a PDK car on our roads is just too bloody easy. And easy things aren't usually fun. If there were no speed limits, I might well choose a PDK again, because I am much faster driving one and could take enough extra enjoyment from the speed, engine note, braking etc to make up for missing the gear changing; but driving these cars at legal speeds is insanely easy. As for driving in traffic, I am not really persuaded that PDK is much better than a manual. You still have to use the paddles (unless you drive like a t t or don't mind an idiot changing gear for you), and I am pretty sure that I am better at low speed clutch control than a PDK box.

klootzak said: Alternatively ... if you've put a lot of time and effort into polishing your own helmet, it's because you enjoy the involvement and satisfaction it brings and thus the odds decrease that you'll trade that for the ease and efficiencies of getting a hand-job from, like, a real woman. Just sayin' k Having, over donkeys years, spend a lot time trying to get double declutching right, heel and toe right, tuning 40DCOes right, starting single cylinder motorcycles right etc I might think those skills are critical to the enjoyment of driving. Or I might think that the important things about driving on the road - planning, anticipation, steering, balance, braking remain. Driving on the road is (for me) about elegance. Times move on about how this might be best achieved. Manual gearchanging is on the cusp.... On the track (for Me) the stopwatch is king - and there is no way I would abuse MY P&J to the degree necessary to achieve the ultimate time.

bcr5784 said: Having, over donkeys years, spend a lot time trying to get double declutching right, heel and toe right, tuning 40DCOes right, starting single cylinder motorcycles right etc I might think those skills are critical to the enjoyment of driving. Or I might think that the important things about driving on the road - planning, anticipation, steering, balance, braking remain. Driving on the road is (for me) about elegance. Times move on about how this might be best achieved. Manual gearchanging is on the cusp.... On the track (for Me) the stopwatch is king - and there is no way I would abuse MY P&J to the degree necessary to achieve the ultimate time. True. Changing gear well doesn't make you a much better road driver, but it does make road driving more engaging and fun. There isn't much fun in anticipation and planning, notwithstanding that they are extremely important to safe, smooth driving on the road.

ORD said: There isn't much fun in anticipation and planning, notwithstanding that they are extremely important to safe, smooth driving on the road. We'll have to disagree on that - indeed I'd argue that anticipation and planning are amongst the KEY ingredients that separate the outstanding RACERS from the merely good.

dreamcar said: blueg33 said: Rev matching? Heel and toe? I think a PDK is the rigjt thing for you. There is an art to driving a manual smoothly and well. A perfectly executed defies of downshifts in s manual is Beth rewarding. Believe it or not I have owned manual sports cars.... 2 x Porsches, Honda S2000, etc etc. I first went to PDK, unconvinced, as I wanted a car that SWMBO could drive ( she prefers autos simply because being short of leg she struggles to fully depress a clutch pedal in most cars), so from a Boxster S 987/1 3.4 with manual transmission, including the superb factory fitted short shift linkage to a 987/2 Cayman S PDK. After the diabolically awful tiptronic Porsche's PDK was a revelation and I loved it. We are now on our third PDK equipped car, a Boxster GTS, and the latest PDK is much much better than the first generation, both faster and smoother. The seventh gear is also a major benefit, as the first six gears are closer spaced than the ratios in the manual gearboxes. Just as manual may be right for you PDK is right for me, it doesn't make you a better driver because you happen to prefer manual. I wasn't implying that you are a worse driver, more that I felt you are missing out on some of the rewarding bits of driving and the post made it look like you didn't realise. There are plenty of times when I wish the Evora was an auto and then plenty of times when I am glad it isn't. But the Mrs wont drive it, she would rather drive an auto and that is one of the reasons for my Cayman PDK test in a couple of weeks.

blueg33 said: But the Mrs wont drive it, she would rather drive an auto and that is one of the reasons for my Cayman PDK test in a couple of weeks. Sounds like exactly the path I trod which led me to PDK! Ironically, we chose the Cayman S PDK in an attempt to drop from three cars to two, it didn't work, SWMBO hated the Cayman and found it a real ordeal to drive, ( made the mistake of believing that a Porsche salesman knew what he was talking about and badly misled us on the specification we chose) so having sold the Boxster, and her shopping trolley to go to the Cayman, we ended up getting her another shopping trolley and shortly afterwards part exchanged the Cayman for. Carrera S PDK. So we are now back to three cars, I drive a Skoda Octavia as my work car, SWMBO has her shopping trolley and we have the Boxster GTS as our sunny day and fun car. Edited by dreamcar on Wednesday 29th April 20:12

PorscheGT4 said: why do people who love PDK still state, they cannot plan or steer or brake a car ! seems to all point back to being a crap driver if one cannot do these things to a high level in a manual ! not my worlds, just pointing out what is said time and time again why PDK is more fun or better by the owners ! people don't say, I find PDK more engaging and interacting , they just state, "I can now steer better" lol I despair but then that's why PDK sales are high, it's a shame when your mum can drive just as fast as you. but then again, GTR sold well, and now people love GT3's now they do every thing and we seem to have a new client base of owners in those, and those do steer for you now ! Just remind me what your ultimate dream car is?? You know...the one you think gives the driving experience by involvement. Oh yes I remember now....the 458 Italia....the AUTO box of which is widely regarded as inferior to the PDK S.........

Just checked the brochure. PDK car is 30kg heavier than the manual.

av185 said: Just remind me what your ultimate dream car is?? You know...the one you think gives the driving experience by involvement. Oh yes I remember now....the 458 Italia....the AUTO box of which is widely regarded as inferior to the PDK S......... Boom goes the dynamite!

ORD said: Boom goes the dynamite! A Ferrari 458 Italia is clearly a rubbish car built for drivers of poor ability. Why else would it only be available with a double clutch gearbox!!!!!!

dreamcar said: SkinnyPete said: If thats all you think you do then it explains a lot. Is that a cheap insult because I don't happen to agree with your views on the subject? Why dont you explain to us all what else a manual gearbox brings on top of 'pressing a clutch'? Your comment leads the reader to conclude that you have no idea. Enlighten us.

mollytherocker said: Why dont you explain to us all what else a manual gearbox brings on top of 'pressing a clutch'? Your comment leads the reader to conclude that you have no idea. Enlighten us. I'm getting a tad fed up with the interrogation from the pro-manual brigade here. Believe it or not I understand why people prefer manual, I wish they would accept why the benefits of PDK lead some - me included - to prefer it. This does not make me a worse, less experienced or less competent driver.

blueg33 said: dreamcar said: PorscheGT4 said: people don't say, I find PDK more engaging and interacting! I find PDK more engaging and interacting. I really don't see why a manual is any more involving just because you have to depress a pedal to change gear. Rev matching? Heel and toe? I think a PDK is the rigjt thing for you. There is an art to driving a manual smoothly and well. A perfectly executed defies of downshifts in s manual is Beth rewarding. Who is this Beth person?

dreamcar said: mollytherocker said: Why dont you explain to us all what else a manual gearbox brings on top of 'pressing a clutch'? Your comment leads the reader to conclude that you have no idea. Enlighten us. I'm getting a tad fed up with the interrogation from the pro-manual brigade here. Believe it or not I understand why people prefer manual, I wish they would accept why the benefits of ODK lead some - me included - to prefer it. This does not make me a worse, less experienced or less competent driver. I will guess why you prefer PDK. Its faster, easier to use, more efficient, requires less effort, its better in traffic and 'your wife cn drive it'. Correct? Why do I prefer a manual box? Why not have a stab?

Depends where and how you drive the car. For commuting in a busy city/driving as fast as you can on track then PDK is very good. I only drive my car for fun so a manual was the only option for me. I was given a 991S PDK for a couple of days and it was fun for the first few hours but afterwards I just left it to do its own thing as I found it boring. Horses for courses and all that.

pete.g said: blueg33 said: dreamcar said: PorscheGT4 said: people don't say, I find PDK more engaging and interacting! I find PDK more engaging and interacting. I really don't see why a manual is any more involving just because you have to depress a pedal to change gear. Rev matching? Heel and toe? I think a PDK is the rigjt thing for you. There is an art to driving a manual smoothly and well. A perfectly executed defies of downshifts in s manual is Beth rewarding. Who is this Beth person? I think she is in control of auto correct on the iphone

dreamcar said: I'm getting a tad fed up with the interrogation from the pro-manual brigade here. Really ? It's a public forum, it's primary objective is to provide a platform to allow individuals to air their opinions, if you don't like it, you can vote with your feet. Like many others who've come and gone before you, you won't be missed if you decide to head off elsewhere. And yes, I did read the post you directed my way yesterday (before you conveniently deleted it) I'm glad you did, because as you clearly realised, it was littered with untruths and inaccuracies At no point had I said "PDK js wrong, manual is right" (pot, kettle, black springs to mind ) I merely stated that my preference was for the older, more crude SMG/S'Tronic type 'boxes, rather than the later PDK/DSG/DCT items. You're new around here, yet you seem hellbent on making a reputation for yourself, just as others have in the past. Try winding your neck in a tad, it'll make the forum a more pleasant place to frequent for all

dreamcar said: mollytherocker said: I will guess why you prefer PDK. Its faster, easier to use, more efficient, requires less effort, its better in traffic and 'your wife cn drive it'. Correct? Why do I prefer a manual box? Why not have a stab? You are correct - having been a die hard manual gearbox enthusiast that would never have considered an auto 'box of any description in a sports car having purchased and lived with a PDK car ( now have my third) I became converted. I can't read your mind so I'll leave it to you to explain. But as has been said on this thread umpteen times there is no right or wrong as it is purely personal preference. I won't however accuse you of being a fully paid up member of the Flat Earth Society for refusing to accept odern technology..... Edited by dreamcar on Thursday 30th April 08:05 To be clear, its not that I do not 'accept modern technology'. It works great in the right application. I would probably have it in a Pana Diesel doing 30k a year. I just dont want it in my 'fun car'.

mollytherocker said: It works great in the right application. Indeed it does. It works great in my Boxster GTS. As it does even better in the Porsche 991 GT3 with S-PDK.

Slippydiff said: You're new around here, yet you seem hellbent on making a reputation for yourself, just as others have in the past. Try winding your neck in a tad, it'll make the forum a more pleasant place to frequent for all Your assumptions are incorrect. What annoys me is when certain posters seem to imply that because certain individuals do not themelves want PDK - and there is nothing wrong in that - similarly there is nothing wrong with those that prefer it. Either choice does not make a car, or its driver inferior. Live and let live, and accept that not everyone likes the same things, and everyone will get on ust fine. I will not be trodden on or beaten into submission, that's for sure.

Porsche have done the right thing offering such cars as the new Spyder and GT4 (for now) as 'manuel' only. The 3.8 S Carrera engine is clearly not a screamer.....unlike the 991 GT3 which quite frankly would be totally unsuited to a 'manuel' box for the same reasons a 458 or at the extreme, an F12 would be unsuited. So, some cars suit 'manuel'.......some don't. Edited by av185 on Thursday 30th April 09:59

The usual elitist b ks on here, I see - it didn't take long for the usual suspects to start throwing the insults around!

dreamcar said: Slippydiff said: You're new around here, yet you seem hellbent on making a reputation for yourself, just as others have in the past. Try winding your neck in a tad, it'll make the forum a more pleasant place to frequent for all Your assumptions are incorrect. What annoys me is when certain posters seem to imply that because certain individuals do not themelves want PDK - and there is nothing wrong in that - similarly there is nothing wrong with those that prefer it. Either choice does not make a car, or its driver inferior. Live and let live, and accept that not everyone likes the same things, and everyone will get on ust fine. I will not be trodden on or beaten into submission, that's for sure. Does it matter how long someone has been a member of the forum? Or how many posts he/she has made? There are some long term members here with thousands of posts, many of them inane, and in some cases verging on insane. It's not like the Wild West, with the new kid in town wanting to see who's fastest on the draw and the grizzled old gunslinger putting him in his place; an opinion can be valuable or valueless regardless of the poster's history.

av185 said: Just remind me what your ultimate dream car is?? You know...the one you think gives the driving experience by involvement. Oh yes I remember now....the 458 Italia....the AUTO box of which is widely regarded as inferior to the PDK S......... it's a dream car well the speciale is , I don't own it :-) I could own one and hate it. if I did own one I would keep my Manual Spyder. I love cars, I have petrol for blood and they rule my life (not a good thing) nothing wrong in wanting to try a Ferrari 458. but people giving up every thing and buying a 981 PDK and then bleeting on about now great is it is funny, esp people who say "the OH has to drive it" or "I can plan ahead now" or "I can now steer" it's like they did not really want it !! all these quotes do make me shudder. and while a 991 GT3 is a great car if some one said 997.2 RS or 991 GT3 for free I would take the 997.2 RS. if I had a 997.2 RS then yes a 991 GT3 makes a great daily :-) Edited by PorscheGT4 on Thursday 30th April 10:19

mollytherocker said: I will guess why you prefer PDK. Its faster, easier to use, more efficient, requires less effort, its better in traffic and 'your wife cn drive it'. Correct? Why do I prefer a manual box? Why not have a stab? You are correct - having been a die hard manual gearbox enthusiast that would never have considered an auto 'box of any description in a sports car having purchased and lived with a PDK car ( now have my third) I became converted. I can't read your mind so I'll leave it to you to explain. But as has been said on this thread umpteen times there is no right or wrong as it is purely personal preference. I won't however accuse you of being a fully paid up member of the Flat Earth Society for refusing to accept modern technology..... Edited by dreamcar on Thursday 30th April 11:12

PDK vs manuel, I don't think there's a particular winner when it comes to driver enjoyment there are positives and negatives for both. It's how it fits with the whole package. I think the "involvment" side is a bit of a red herring - if PDK makes a particular car more fun for you, spec it, if not, don't. For me it's purely whether the positives of the particular option outweigh the negatives in fun terms. For the record I can heel and toe and do enjoy it, and I get on track 5 or so times a year in my cars. My preferences for the cars I currently have (or have inbound).... 993 - love it in manual form, suits it's old school character, no negatives, esp when the only other option is a Tip slushbox 7.1 GT3 - also love in manual form, once warmed the gearbox feels fab, in my head at least it follows the whole pre-991 simpler/lighter is better GT3 philosophy, downside is the gearing is too long for the road, but forgivable as it was designed for use on track as well. That said, I think I could live with a PDK-S in a 7.x GT3 if they had made it for the racey feel it would give me on track. Boxster/Cayman GTS - prefer PDK w/ paddles, suits its more modern, less hardcore character. Makes the car feel more powerful than it is with the shorter more road orientated ratios. That said, the manual would still be in the running for me if it was my sole weekend car and the ratios weren't daftly long. Either Porsche developed them for 'ring times (pointless) or for a few extra % fuel efficiency (wrong priorities), either way I think they dropped the ball. I spent a whole morning driving both a manual and PDK at PEC Silverstone, and the manual was just a bit frustrating, PDK was far more enjoyable overall even if technically I was doing less. Edited by Mario149 on Tuesday 19th May 09:31 Edited by Mario149 on Tuesday 19th May 09:32 Edited by Mario149 on Tuesday 19th May 09:33

Mario149 said: PDK vs manuel, I don't think there's a particular winner when it comes to driver enjoyment there are positives and negatives for both. It's how it fits with the whole package. I think the "involvment" side is a bit of a red herring - if PDK makes a particular car more fun for you, spec it, if not, don't. For me it's purely whether the positives of the particular option outweigh the negatives in fun terms. For the record I can heel and toe and do enjoy it, and I get on track 5 or so times a year in my cars. My preferences for the cars I currently have (or have inbound).... 993 - love it in manual form, suits it's old school character, no negatives, esp when the only other option is a Tip slushbox 7.1 GT3 - also love in manual form, once warmed the gearbox feels fab, in my head at least it follows the whole pre-991 simpler/lighter is better GT3 philosophy, downside is the gearing is too long for the road, but forgivable as it was designed for use on track as well. That said, I think I could live with a PDK-S in a 7.x GT3 if they had made it for the racey feel it would give me on track. Boxster/Cayman GTS - prefer PDK w/ paddles, suits its more modern, less hardcore character. Makes the car feel more powerful than it is with the shorter more road orientated ratios. That said, the manual would still be in the running for me if it was my sole weekend car and the ratios weren't daftly long. Either Porsche developed them for 'ring times (pointless) or for a few extra % fuel efficiency (wrong priorities), either way I think they dropped the ball. I spent a whole morning driving both a manual and PDK at PEC Silverstone, and the manual was just a bit frustrating, PDK was far more enjoyable overall even if technically I was doing less. Edited by Mario149 on Tuesday 19th May 09:31 Edited by Mario149 on Tuesday 19th May 09:32 Edited by Mario149 on Tuesday 19th May 09:33 +1 Nail on head.

The ratios are probably purely to do with CO2 output on the official cycle. It also pushes people into PDK cars, which is what Porsche wants anyway!

ORD said: It also pushes people into PDK cars, which is what Porsche wants anyway! True, just a bit sad that they engineer a failing into the manual 'box to help do it, rather than just let the PDK sell on its own merits

I find this debate quite funny, because as another contributor has already pointed out, if you want real involvement buy a more focused car. My previous car was an Ariel Atom, where the involvement meant no power steering, traction control or ABS. In the wet it sometimes gave you too much involvement. In many ways it was similar to my first car, an Austin Healey Sprite, yes I'm quite old. That also had no driving "assistance", plus other involving items such as a choke, a hood that took 5 minutes to take down and longer to put up and a heater that you had to open the bonnet to turn off. How much involvement you want is a personal thing; if you want lots, buy an old car and have the fun of no synchromesh on first or reverse. It has taken me a year to get used to my 981, for many months it just felt slow and heavy and certainly not as involving as the Atom, but remembering returning to Lincolnshire from the factory in Somerset one winter when it was -3 degrees reminds me, sometimes it's nice not to be too involved.

OldChap said: I find this debate quite funny, because as another contributor has already pointed out, if you want real involvement buy a more focused car. My previous car was an Ariel Atom, where the involvement meant no power steering, traction control or ABS. In the wet it sometimes gave you too much involvement. In many ways it was similar to my first car, an Austin Healey Sprite, yes I'm quite old. That also had no driving "assistance", plus other involving items such as a choke, a hood that took 5 minutes to take down and longer to put up and a heater that you had to open the bonnet to turn off. How much involvement you want is a personal thing; if you want lots, buy an old car and have the fun of no synchromesh on first or reverse. It has taken me a year to get used to my 981, for many months it just felt slow and heavy and certainly not as involving as the Atom, but remembering returning to Lincolnshire from the factory in Somerset one winter when it was -3 degrees reminds me, sometimes it's nice not to be too involved. It's not binary! A biker could say the same thing to you - all cars are luxo barges compared to bikes, even an Atom.

Wow, you make a light hearted comment about old cars being more involving than most modern ones and someone snaps back bikes are more involving. I must admit I hadn't noticed we were comparing bikes with cars. Is it just me that missed that? It's nearly fifty years since I bought my first motorbike, and that too was more involving than modern bikes with their electric starters, ABS brakes, indicators etc; but then again I didn't think we were discussing bikes, simply the amount of involvement drivers want from their cars. Some people on here appear to be quite belligerent.

OldChap said: Wow, you make a light hearted comment about old cars being more involving than most modern ones and someone snaps back bikes are more involving. I must admit I hadn't noticed we were comparing bikes with cars. Is it just me that missed that? It's nearly fifty years since I bought my first motorbike, and that too was more involving than modern bikes with their electric starters, ABS brakes, indicators etc; but then again I didn't think we were discussing bikes, simply the amount of involvement drivers want from their cars. Some people on here appear to be quite belligerent. Motorbikes? Pah! Walking, that's where the most 'involvement' lies. Barefoot, obviously - these modern shoes reduce the 'feel' on the road... Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 19th May 16:28

Why do I like PDK ? More economical. More performance. More mind space to concentrate on the dynamics of the car when driving as fast as I can ... or is safe. I have got past the stage where I need to prove that I can still heel and toe --- or is that toe and heel ? I guess it depends upon which car I am driving And, better gear ratios than the current six speeder --- though I'm buying a GT4

FWIW, I asked an ex F1 racer who owns a fleet of supercars what he thought of PDK. His reply was he would go for PDK over manual everytime, as being a racer it enables him to go faster. Food for thought

MJ911 said: FWIW, I asked an ex F1 racer who owns a fleet of supercars what he thought of PDK. His reply was he would go for PDK over manual everytime, as being a racer it enables him to go faster. Food for thought Not really food for thought is it? Its just one mans opinion On the other hand, there is Lewis Hamilton, two time F1 world champion and he has a Zonda with a manual gearbox and an AC Cobra with a manual gearbox..... he has also just bought a La Ferrari (with the flappy paddles like wot Michael Shuuuumakka has) Horses for courses, there is no right or wrong

Just thought his thoughts carried more weight being a well respected car jockey with a lot of experience of all manner of fast cars, but yes the flip side is LH's car choices as you pointed out I see the Red cayman R that I initially intended to buy based on whether I liked PDK or not, that got sold within a few days, was merely 'flipped' by a dealer and has had an extra 7k added to the price...grrr.

V8KSN said: Not really food for thought is it? Its just one mans opinion On the other hand, there is Lewis Hamilton, two time F1 world champion and he has a Zonda with a manual gearbox and an AC Cobra with a manual gearbox..... he has also just bought a La Ferrari (with the flappy paddles like wot Michael Shuuuumakka has) Horses for courses, there is no right or wrong I completely agree ... I will thoroughly enjoy the GT4 for it's 21st century 964RS'ness !

Just to add my 2p. Last week my 7.1 GT3 RS was in for a service and I had a brand new Boxster S PDK loaner for the day. For the first 30mins I left it in auto mode to get out of the city and found the PDK faultless, so easy to switch off and relax in stop start / busy traffic. On the hour drive home I initially played about with the PDK in "manual" mode with both the paddles and gear stick and was amazed at how quick / seamless the upshifts were. I was also amazed at how rapid the car was, it didn't feel that much slower than my RS. After about 30mins though I got fed up and put it back into auto mode for the rest of the way home. I don't know how the PDK on the Boxster S compares to the PDK-S? on the 991 GT3's but I ended up switching to auto as I didn't actually feel as though I was doing anything. It changed so quick and with so little feedback I thought what's the point! I ran a Nissan GTR for 2 years and enjoyed that gearbox much more. OK it was maybe less refined but the kick from the gearbox and the click of the paddles as you changed gears made you feel like you were at least doing something. At the end of the day when handing the car back I still hadn't warmed to it and when I sat back in my own car and pulled away I just grinned like an idiot thinking how different it was I can't speak for any other 997 or 991 manual models but for any PDK fans I'd say if you can try a 997 GT3 RS manual box do so, it really is a joy to use

Borrowed a 997GT3RS for 45 minutes last year. the box was an absolute b h cold, but pure class when warmed up. I'm just about to buy a 987 spyder with PDK, based on the fact that ; I fancy a change It felt quicker and will be cheaper to run I thought it would be useful for the track I'm intrigued by launch control (childish lol!) The steering wheel looked miles better than the manual (tart!) I can't justify a (circa) extra £4k for a 'purist' manual version. I drove a few spyders and 981's with PDK and it was quickly apparent you really needed chrono if you're going that route..let's see how I get on . Missus never really drove my 997 but said she'd be much happier driving the spyder with PDK - that's gotta be worth some brownies points too !. Edited by Nattyboy888 on Friday 22 May 11:26

Well, that was interesting, just back from a test drive of a Cayman GTS with PDK. I drove it on the same roads in the same direction as I drove my Evora to the dealership so that I could compare. I have to say, that the PDK box is intoxicating, the speed of gear change is amazing and means that the car really flatters the driver, and there is no doubt that its quicker that the manual Evora. The Evora still has the edge on cornering, mainly due to steering feel, the Cayman felt a bit dead and isolated, Plus turn in wasn't quite as good. Evora had more grip so I could get the power down earlier out of the corners but the faster gear change in the PDK Cayman meant that overall it was faster. In sport mode the Cayman ride is less compliant than the Evora. Its a tricky decision as I was comparing two different cars as well as two different transmissions. I really liked the pdk, it made me faster from a-b but definitely takes away the reward of a good gear change with heel and toe into a corner, but the intoxicating speed of the change makes its a very close run thing. In all, I would be very happy with either. And overall, I don't think one car is better than the other, they are both excellent. So when the Porsche man calls, I don't know whether to order or whether to stick with the Evora and wait for the new Evora 400 to be available used.

Just ordered a Cayman with PDK for the wife. Before the test drives she was determined to get a manual. After the test drives she wanted the PDK. When asked why she said she just preferred it. A woman's logic, you can't argue with that.

hondansx said: Personally, i think people should share their car usage before stating their opinion. Sure, a manual makes perfect sense if it is a weekend car, doing 6,000 miles a year on Welsh b-roads. However, using a clutch everyday isn't so much fun doing 30,000 miles a year in start/stop traffic in London. Doesn't mean you hate manuals or aren't an enthusiast because you choose PDK for 90% of your journeys! This is a fair comment. I drive a 70 mile round trip to work everyday, and use an E250 CDI 7 G Tronic (lovely thing for the job, but bloody boring otherwise!), and have a 997 Carrera S Manual for "driving".