Has anyone been warned NOT to track their 996?

I got into a little discussion in the Cayenne section w/ a 993 owner who was ripping on 996s, Cayennes, and Boxsters. We all know that the about the difference between the M96 oil sump and other 911s, air cooled, 996TTs, and GTs. These cars have a sump which is based on the 964 case. This dry sump oil system allows the engine to be mounted lower in the car, which contributes to a lower center of gravity. The M96 is considered to be a "semi" dry-sump, a hybrid of the two styles with the "tank" incorporated with the engine and not mounted to the chassis with external rubber oil lines like the earlier 911s. This design not only yields a manufacturing efficiency, it also eliminates another source of oil leakage which plagued earlier 911s. He had this to say about the M96 oil sump: "The semi-dry sump of the 996 engine, at least in its early form, had some oil starvation problems while undergoing sustained cornering on the track. It simply did not work as well in track conditions as the true dry-sump system that the air-cooled engines utilized. Porsche warned owners of these cars to avoid sustained high-G situations -- track days. Porsche developed a modification that could be installed to alleviate this failing, but at considerable cost to the owner (well over $1,000, if memory serves), and advised owners to avoid the track without this mod. " I've never heard of 996 owners being warned not to track w/out this mod, have you?

The warning is 'correct' but not the details. The stock 996 motor can experience oil startvation issues under high G loadings. This bascially means that you should not run slicks on these cars without the oil system mods. Tracking these cars on street tires or DOT R tires (like Hoosiers) is OK according to the mechanics I have talked to. Just do not take the jump to real racing slicks.

It sounds like you came across a 993 owner who likes to improve the value of his 993 by putting down 996's and all other things Porsche. No, I have not been discouraged from tracking my 996. And I have been aggressively tracking the car, with blessings from my local dealer. The oil starvation mentioned "can" occur with sustained G's that can only be achieved with racing slicks on a long looping carousel. In other words, it can only occur if you are competitively tracking your car and have it race modified. If you race modify a 996, it will have to include the additional pick up system. If you modify it short of a race prep, I don't believe you will ever "starve" the engine in it's stock form. 993's and 996's are excellent cars. Not to make this a 993 vs 996 thread, but does that "knowledgeable" 993 owner you talked to track his car? If he doesn't, and he came across as abnoxious to you, then I'd call him a poseour. If this was an otherwise amicable exchange, I'd just say the 993 is a "nice" car, but now a dinosour, heh-heh .

I believe the official warning was for cars that sustain cornering forces of more than 1 g, and there was an assumption that 1g can only be exceeded on racing slicks. While this may be true if the rest of the suspension is stock, I believe that there are 996s with modified suspensions that can exceed 1g even on Hoosiers or other DOT R tires. I know Chris Cervelli recommends the oil sump mod for anyone thinking about Club Racing a 996 in B or C stock, and these cars run on DOT tires. The issues isn't really dry sump or wet sump, the issue with the 996 is how many oil return pumps they use and where they are located. The "oiling" mod from PMNA for the 996 doesn't make the car a full dry sump system, it merely adds another scavage pump and oil return to one of the heads. If Porsche had included this in the design of the M96 in the first place (maybe they do on the 3.6L engine, does anyone know?), there would be no issue of dry sump versus hybrid. Karl

If I was really going to do compettitive racing I wouldn't hesitate to get the GT3 in a heartbeat but since I'm not, DE's is my thing and since I'm not doing enduros and only running the car 20-30 minutes at a time oil starvation is a moot point. Never had starvation issues with DE's. Regards. Mike

My 99 996 has had no problems. I run street tires and the oil stays where it needs to be. Slicks would be a different story.

My dealer said the problems have been overblown. If you don't mod the suspension and run race slicks, you should be fine. Every story I have heard has started "This guy I know, knew this guy that..."

John, You are right. This guy I know that had a 99 C2 sold it after experiencing some really low oil pressure readings during hard cornering on the track. His was the same pretty red that your car is. Looks great.

Porsches are born on the track, how could you keep them away from the tracks??? Why bother buying a Porsche if you don't track them?!?!?!?! <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

Porsche's 911 venture away from air cooled has been a learning experience. The 996 motor was not built for the track. Even with the start of production of the 996, Porsche continued to use an air cooled motor for its race vehicles.

MAN-this is another 996-993 debate. Please close this topic-I'm getting pissed. Regards. Mike

All comparisons to the 993 and previous 911 engines are pretty much irrelevant. The 996 engine is clearly superior in some ways, and clearly inferior in others. Here is what I have learned in running my 996 for about 10000 track miles now. No DE events, all serious racing. The stock oil system is not even close to good enough. I recommend installing the oil kit as soon as R compound tires go on. If the kit is not installed, it is only a matter of time. I have found that the oil kit cures 99.9% of that problem. But there are other problems: The oil cooling system is not sufficient. Oil temp is always above 250F The water cooling system is barely sufficient if you use the center radiator. Slow tracks and hot days are a problem. The engine loses a great deal of power once the temperatures get high. None of these things are likely to be an issue in DE use.

Rob W, It seems that nerve is still struck... All, I am the 993 owner to whom Rob W referred. Please Rob, do not mischaracterize what I posted. I was not "ripping" on 996s, Cayennes or Boxsters (in fact, you "ripped" on the 993). I simply responded to the thread topic on the Cayenne board with a combination of facts and opinions (and opinions should never be confused with facts). To briefly summarize: 1) I know the 996 is a bit quicker and faster than the 993; 2) the 996 engine (non-GT3, Turbo, or GT2) is not as track-worthy as the air-cooled 911 engines; 3) build quality of the 996, Boxster and Cayenne is not up to the standards of the earlier cars. I think there is little debate about those issues. I don't think the above should offend anyone. It apparently offended Rob W., who by his own admission covered the interior of his own car in full leather and wood in order to hide the plastic. Palting, Rest assured, I did not nor would I attempt to "improve the value of" my 993 "by putting down 996s and all other things Porsche." I like virtually everything Porsche has ever made, although, like most of us, I have some preferences. For the record, yes, I track my car, though I do not think that one is necessarily a poseur if one does not do track events. 996s and 993s are among the greatest cars on the planet. They are different cars, however, and they each have advantages and disadvantages relative to the other -- that's why some of us own 993s and some own 996s (and a few own both). <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by 996FLT6: <strong>MAN-this is another 996-993 debate. Please close this topic-I'm getting pissed. Regards. Mike</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Certainly not a 996-993 debate. However, as mentioned earlier, the air cooled and water cooled motors both have advantages and disadvantages. As you say you track your car frequently, you would know these difference better than most. Incidentally, I have not tracked my car yet but I am certainly not a poser.

Don't assume you car is not having oiling problems at the track. You can't tell this is happening by just looking at a the oil gage. The lack of oil will cause excessive wear on you engine, until it gives way. This does not happen in just one long turn, but over time. Up to that point it may perform normally. Mine popped going down a straight, but it was shot from lack of oil. I totally agree with what Chris is saying above. If you have a modified your car through R compound tires and suspension work. You should have the oil kit. At least on earlier 996. This may have been fixed the 3.6 engines. I raced a 996 in C stock for two years and through the towel in on it. I now have a 993RS that I race. Just for the record I like the 996 better than the 993 I had before for everyday use.

The problem with the standard 996 engine (not Turbo, GT2/3 version) design is that to reduce cost and improve production efficiency the two cylinder heads are made identical. This means the scavenge pump is in the rear on the right side of the engine and at the front on the left side. The scavenge pumps are there to suck up the oil from the bottom of the exhaust cam box since, because it is at or near the oil level in the sump, gravity drainage is not possible as in an air cooled 911. This means that under heavy braking and/or cornering turning to the left, oil moves forward and to the right and into the forward portion of the right cylinder head and because there is no scavenge pump there, oil becomes trapped there. Porsche's solution with their racing kit is to stack two pumps in the normal position at the rear of the right hand head and run a pipe forward from the added pump to drain the front of head area. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

Cupcar's explanation of this is 100% correct. I heard somewhere that the left cylinder head does not have the problem in right turns because the timing chain effectively pulls all the oil back down to case. The left side timing chain on a 996 is back by the flywheel.

Todd: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I was not "ripping" on 996s, Cayennes or Boxsters (in fact, you "ripped" on the 993)...there is little debate that the build quality of the 986, 996 and Cayenne is not up to the standard of the 993...the fact remains that there is FAR more Porsche content in a 993...The Boxster uses a platform that no car other than a 996 uses...The Cayenne and Touareg are very nearly the same vehicle. What other vehicle is very nearly the same as a 993? The only answer is another 993....Spoken like a man with a rear-engined Boxster...you must get something in return for the bland exterior appearance and the overstyled, plasticky interior with those miniscule instruments ...the build quality of the 993 is simply leagues above that of the 996...The 996 is much cheaper to build, and it shows....My 8 year old, 51,000 mile 993 feels more solid and free of squeaks/rattles than any of the several 996s I've driven...Porsche warned owners of these cars to avoid sustained high-G situations -- track days...who by his own admission covered the interior of his own car in full leather and wood in order to hide the plastic.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Rob: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">the "rear-engined Boxster" is vastly superior to your 993 in every category. (significantly lighter, has a far lower drag coefficient, much more torque in a wider flatter band, better gearing, higher redline, more horsepower, better suspension, PSM, better climate control, more room -front and rear, stops faster, handles better, accelerates faster)....I really like the way 993s look...Yes, full leather should be standard in an $85k base priced car.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I never mentioned any wood. "Ripping" is an opinion . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Don't worry, my nerves are quite relaxed. I've been reading this and other boards regularly for quite some time and had never heard of anyone being warned not to track their 996. Hence, my post. In summary: The 3.4L 996 CAN be tracked on street tires or DOT R tires. The oil starvation "may" occur with sustained cornering forces of more than 1 g for considerable periods of time. This can be achieved with racing slicks on a long looping carousel, i.e. if you are competitively tracking your car and have it race modified. This is a moot point for the majority of us who participate in DEs and Autocross. The oiling kit is only available from PMNA, not a dealer and consists of an additional scavenge pump, a baffled pan, and oil return to one of the heads. The 3.6L and X-51 996s have the oiling kit from stock. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> EDIT: Added smile icon to Todd's quote, no wink icons were missed.

Porsche has had various issues with Oiling in all of thier vehicles, but this is new to me on the 996s. The 944 and 928s have a 2/6 rd bearing issue that WILL NOT SHOW up on the oil gauge. If you go far enough, your first sign will be a very bad day at the track...smoke, engine stalling, maybe even a grenaded engine. I just wanted to state that last point: The momentary oil pressure drop, in my reading and discussions with 928 racers, will not show up in the dash gauge. Of course, your starvation may be different than mine, but still.

Rob, Perhaps you didn't mention the wood, but it's clearly visible in your pictures. You did mention the full leather, noting that it should be standard in an $85K car. Not a bad summary of my posts, but you left out the smile and wink icons that usually followed my in-jest comments about the 996, which were themselves in response to your comments regarding the 993. With their absence from the summary, it would seem that I was "ripping" on the 996, etc. Glad we're all relaxing. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

For what its worth (and I would be the first to say not much) I have both a 993 and a 996. The 993 is a black cab with 35k easy miles and the 996 is a black coupe track car with 32k hard miles. The last 10k of which are on the track only. The cars are both great but different. Here are my observations. 1) The whole build quaility argument is very overstated. The 996 interior has held up every bit as well as the 993 with much harder use. The same goes for the exterior and even the doors. Yes the 993 has that wonderful metalic clunk but the 996 closes just as soundly with a slightly different noise. In general the fit and finish on the two cars are about the same. 2) The 993 has more of a sports car feel. Better stated, the 993 has more of a "traditional" sports car feel. If both cars were still street worthy and I was heading out on a spirited sunday drive, I would go for the 993. On the other hand, if I had to choose one to own, the choice would be the 996. It I was heading to the track I would make the same choice. 3) The 996 is ugly or doesn't look like a traditional Porsche. A couple of years ago I was driving the 996 and ran into an old guy in a early 70s 911t right drive. We were looking over each others cars when he said he was happy that Porsche had gone back to the simpler lines of the earlier 911s. I had to laugh. For what it's worth, I prefer the 993's looks but certainly understand the problems with building a modern sportscar around its areodynamics. 3) The engine. Both engines have been pretty much flawless for me although I bought the 993 used. I did replace a mainseal on the 996 but it was no big deal. I have no doubt that in it's final version, the oil cooled boxer is at it's best however changing the oil makes me wonder what engineer was smokin what when that whole deal was put together. 4) Resale. The 993s are holding up a little better than the 996 but not that much. Take a hard look and you will find 98 993s and 99 996s are pretty close. The 993 guys want to blame the 996 depreciation on the fact that they are a mass produced, cheaper car. I suppose that's partially true but I think it has more to do with the economy than anything Porsche did other than build enough cars to meet demand. The 996 was introduced during a huge boom and sold like crazy. Had the 993 been 2 or 3 years later it would have done the same. Now with the bust, used 996s are a dime a dozen and hurting the value of the whole brand. Sorry for the rant. I just wish more people would focus more time on bashing Vipers and less on other P cars. Jim

Well said JimB. Just for the record I have tracked my 3.4 996 at many DEs over the last few years, I have never had any type of engine/drivetrain trouble. But, the one and only time I ever autocrosed my 996 (quite hard by the way), I noticed my lifters "sounding off" at the end of the last run. Now this was a long time ago and I have never heard anything since, but it tells me there is an oil starvation problem somewhere. Thus the very first mod when my warranty runs out will be the PMNA oiling upgrade, until then I'm not worried running DEs on street tires.

DJ, I think adding the oiler kit is a no brainer. On topics like that, I listen to people like Cris C. Jim

As a 993 admirer and 996 owner, that was a great "rant", JimB. Back to the topic. As I understand it, the oil starvation problem and the oil scavenger solution pertains to the 3.4L 996 engine. Right? Only under sustained high G's I might add. Does anyone here know, definitively, if the recent edition 3.6L has had the problem solved or not?

According to CFG (Chris from Germany admin @ funcars) the 3.6 already has the additional scavenge pump. <a href="http://www.funcarsonline.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=996&Number=55554&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=7& fpart=1" target="_blank">LINK</a>

The only thing that I think is important to think about is wrecking your car. I've seen several 996's on Texas World Speedway track days. The straight is part of a banked oval. If there was going to be an oil starvation problem, that's where it would occur. Sustained high G's is something like the Talledega tri-oval. On a road course, sustained high-G's is rarely a problem as corners are short-lived. I remember that the C5 corvette was running into alot of problems on the straight at TWS because of the lack of a dry-sump oil system. Anyway, stay away from the Monardo test track in Italy, and you should be okay. I'll be at TWS with a Z06 on May 20th with the Momentum Porsche/BMW guys. I'm not taking my car (yes I drive a lowly Dinan modified Z3) as I need it to drive to KC next week, but I'll be driving my Father's Z06. By the way, our "chase car" is a new Cayenne S!(Excuse my grammar, I just woke up)

Anyone have part numbers for the oil kit for the 3.4l?

You can only get the kit through porsche Motorsports NA.