Brake Pads, Rotors - Lessons Learned???

First time doing brakes on my 2001 996 C4. My "Brake Wear" light came on yesterday. Any important mechanical advice, tips/tricks? Advice on best parts prices you've found? Can you turn Porsche rotors, or must replace every time? Parts Dealers - please don't hawk and respond to this. I'm looking for advice from my fellow car owners. No offense.

I'm not normally into touchy-feely threads, but I'm truly conflicted so here goes... My story : 996TT was insanely awesome, saw DD plus mild track duty, and served me well...until I totaled it on the track. My wife was pregnant at the time and I've always loved the E46 M3 so I got one (pictured below) b/c I needed a functional backseat for the baby. It's already a legitimately fast car so all it needed was some suspension and brake upgrades (PSS10s, camber plates, PFC 08's, etc) and does great on the track but still doesn't feel like a P-car. It's now about as good as it can get without spending more serious money, and I do love it...BUT... I still find myself lusting for another 911. Couple that with the fact that my son's carseat will soon be front-facing so a 911 can work for the rare times he's not in my wife's SUV. I'm over the 996 fried egg headlights and don't "need" a turbo, plus a 997.1S fits the budget. So I test drove a 997.1S Cab 6MT with sport chrono today...and... Power : Honestly, it didn't feel much (if any?) faster than my M3 which isn't much of a surprise b/c my M3 can totally hang with 997's on the straights at the track. Both have good throttle response especially in sport mode (although 997's sport is smoother). 911 sounded better but M3 rev'd higher. I'd really need to drag them side-by-side to be sure, but draw or mild advantage to 911 especially if the 997 was a coupe (lighter) Handling : 997 definitely sits lower and corners flatter, and feels MUCH smaller, lighter, and therefore sportier than the M3. This is probably the biggest difference. But even with sport suspension turned on, I was unpleasantly surprised with the amount of body roll in the 997. Maybe my expectations are skewed b/c of coilovers and race alignment on my M3? I like my suspension tight...I actually drive around the street with my PSS10's on nearly full stiff so even sport setting didn't feel very stiff in 997. To compare apples:apples, I suppose the 997 would be much better on coilovers but I was hoping that I wouldn't need to upgrade suspension on this car. Mild advantage to 997 but not as much as I'd expected. Brakes : Not as good as my M3. However, my M3 has race pads/fluid/lines and Michelin PSS while the 997 was stock and on P Zeros. I'm confident the 997 brakes would be better with same components. Even though I didn't feel it...advantage 911. Styling : I love the aggressiveness and timelessness of the E46 M3. But the 911 is a 911 so who the hell can argue with that?? Advantage 911. Price : I'm into my M3 for ~$20k with purchase price plus upgrades. 997 would be ~$40k. Advantage M3 ...although this really isn't an issue b/c this isn't a financial decision per se. At the same time, though, money is money so do I really want to spend $20k more on a car that looks and feels cooler, but probably only puts down mildly better performance specs? Bottom Line : I guess I was expecting to be blown away by the 997S, but I wasn't. Does this mean I don't still want one? Hell no, I'd love to have one. It almost seems more like a $20k lateral move than an upgrade, though, which is tough to justify. This may sound crazy, but maybe I need to look at 997.1TT? That'd be an absolute monster in every respect for $60k which may make more "sense"...although I don't really need the power as the power of the 996 turbo was already overkill on the track. Is there anything I'm missing? Why do you guys love your 997S? Or is there something I'm missing (for example, might basic suspension, race pads, race alignment, exhaust, MPSS, and ECU flash or whatever make it a whole different car and blow away my E46 M3)? Thanks! ^^^Currently serves as DD, baby-carrier, and track car.

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Let me chime in here: First, the parts dealers on this forum are a wealth of information and are a valuable resource and many offer technical information on their websites, so don't discard them. As for the brakes, you cannot turn the rotors, in some cases you can get 2 sets of pads to the rotors, unless you use ceramic pads which are less dusty but eat the rotors. Use a good street pad or OEM and make sure they are made for the sensors. Other than that I believe it's pretty straight forward. Quote:

Welcome back! It's obvious you miss your pcar and want to make the move. My first thoughts are maybe you will end up somewhat disappointed with a 997.1S because of your past experience with a 996TT. The 997.1S is an awesome car but is quite different than a TT. Perhaps test drive a 997.1TT and a 997.2S instead. Then maybe you could narrow to which model pcar will be next for you. And to really mix things up, consider a newer Cayman S too. edit: just saw your budget numbers, a 997TT or a decent 997.2S might be a stretch. Maybe start the hunt for a pristine 996TT?

You might want to buy new brake sensors since they are easy to break especially if you've not done it before. Also it not reusing the anti squeal pads you need four per wheel if so inclined.

Awesome write up! I cannot wait to see what you decide! Better yet I can help you take either the Porsche or the BMW to the next level! If you decide to keep the BMW going with Sport Headers and high-flow cats will not only help you hang with the 997's but you'll be passing them. BMW e46 M3 Product Line If you decide to go with the Porsche the upgrades would be the same but make the car a massive upgrade over the M3, Sport headers and high-flow cats go a long way bolted on to either vehicle. Porsche 997 Product Line

Thanks, guys. First of all, I had seen suppliers respond to other posts and figured that's why their on here in the first place - to stir business. I'm not blaming them, but had in fact discounted that they might also be able to help us. Thank you. Thanks for advice about sensors, pads and rotors. I'll get some bids.

I made that move 8 years ago. E46 M3 to an -06 997 C4S. Like you I was a bit disappointed in the performance at first. I remember thinking that the M3 actually felt faster but the one thing that got me to forget that right away was the visceral feel of the 911 that I haven't felt in any other car. Can't quiet put my finger on it so probably a combination of a lot of things but for starters, the driving position, intimate cockpit and exhaust note smoke the M3. The -06 C4S I bought was already lowered and had a Tubi exhaust so it felt so much more like a real sports car than the M3 which as great as it is, still is a sedan and feels like one in many ways.

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Quote: I know of no reason why the Porsche rotors can't be turned but it is rare they are turned. In fact I can't recall anyone in fact doing this. For my Boxster and I don't see how this would be any different for the 996 I have replaced just the pads when my check of the rotors found them still serviceable. A brake bedding in procedure after the new pads are installed gets the braking action up to snuff in practically no time and brake performance and service life is just fine. When doing the brakes I always order the brake hardware kit. I forget now the names of the parts in the kit but every piece of hardware that one must remove to do the brakes -- except the wheel bolts, of course, is included except maybe the caliper bolts. I can't recall if these come with the kit or not but if I replace the rotors and of course have to remove the caliper I replace the caliper bolts too. These are not stretch bolts but they are exposed to the elements and I have found the ends to sometimes show signs of corrosion and rather than wire brush this away and try to find some "sealer" (aka grease) that will hold up to the heat and elements (ain't any) I just replace the bolts. I do one wheel at a time so I have the other wheel and its untouched hardware as a reference. After I remove the wheel and before I start taking the brake hardware apart I use some brake cleaner -- the stuff that comes in an aerosol can -- to clean the hardware, the caliper and the the brake sensor wear and its connection. Put down some layers of newspaper to catch the fluid as it drips off and carries with it the considerable brake dust. This reduces -- but does not eliminate -- the dust you encounter when you start removing hardware. After you remove the hardware then do another cleaning prior to installing the new hardware. Be careful that when you push apart the pistons the fluid level in the brake fluid reservoir does not over flow. You can remove some old fluid -- use an old turkey baster (you'll have to carefully remove the screen that covers the opening of the reservoir) -- if you want but remember the brake fluid level can be low after you are done. 'course, after you are done a brake fluid flush and bleed is a very good thing to do. Don't forget the clutch slave bleed too if the car is equipped with a manual transmission. Sometimes I just order new wear sensors, other times if the wear sensors are intact I reuse them, although I keep in mind one may light the warning light if it proves to be bad or goes bad. I'm prepared to go back and replace it (and its mate on the other side) should this occur so this slim risk doesn't bother me. Believe it or not I have even reused sensors that were a bit worn from contact with the rotors but I do not recall if I did anything special. Really in the overall scheme of things the new sensors are inconsequential to the price of the brake job so my advice is to just replace them with new ones. (Do as I say not as I do...) Pay attention to your work and avoid distractions and interruptions to your work. The brakes are a vital safety system of the car and must be done right. If you mess up and even if you avoid any accident improperly installed or left loose brake hardware can wreck havoc on other expensive components. Oh, except for one time I have bought my rotors/pads at a local dealer. Even from the dealer parts department I can tell you the pad brands were different -- I do not recall the various brand names now. I can also tell you brake dust production and brake life were different between pad (and possibly rotor) brands but I can't recall the combinations that delivered the least amount of dust and the longest life. At the time I was installing the new hardware it never occurred to me to note the brands used. In all cases though brake action was just fine and I never felt any combination of pad/rotor brand delivered sub-standard (or even less) braking action than any other combination. I never bothered with "low dust" pads or fancy "track" pads I just used/installed whatever the parts counter manager shoved over the counter at me when I picked up the hardware.

Since returning from the UK in 1993 I have only gone 4 years without owning a 911. I started with a 1987 Carrera, progressed to 964, 993, and now 997 and I just cannot explain my love for the cars, but the saying "There is no substitute" holds true for me.

Slotted drilled rotors can be turned. this has been discussed many times. Do you guys have recent articles that state they cannot be turned?

I have owned many Porsche's (40) and almost as many BMW's (38) including many Mcars M3,(same series), M5, M6, and I currently have two Porsche's and two 650's (coupe and conv), the coupe has been given the dinan treatment, and has more power than my 07 M6 had. I am now well into the AARP stage of life and my racing days (as well as my how fast does it go 0-60) are over. Though in my life I have been fortunate enough to own some amazing cars (many Italian exotics among them), but in the end I always feel most comfortable behind the wheel of a 911 and there are probably many members here who feel that way too. Though my current 911 is so far from stock that some consider it a kit car, it still has that feeling I got when I got behind the wheel of my first 911 (almost 40 years ago). Over the years Porsche has improved the 911 (in some ways better and some ways not so much), but for me there is a feeling that I always know what the car is capable of (and in my case now what I am as well) and no matter what model I get into I instantly know what I can and cannot achieve with it. If you are looking for shear speed and power well there are many cars that can give you that for less money (I've probably owned many of them in my life), but for me none of them feel like a 911 does. It is that feeling that makes the car, turns it into the perfect sports car for me. That feeling does not come to everyone, and if it comes to you, then it is the right car to own.

If you turn CD rotors they don't dissipate heat nearly as well, and in turn, the structural integrity of the discs are compromised. Cross drilled rotors are harder to turn and in doing so often results in some issue in consistency of thickness. The cutting bit can be miss guided when hitting the holes. It's possible but not as easy. If you do decide to try, have someone who's done drilled rotors before. Often, it's simply not worth the effort. Porsche states if there is any "lip" on the edge the rotors should be replaced.

I own an E46 M3 and a 2011 Carrera S. Both are great cars, but the M3 doesn't give me the same sports car feeling as the Carrera especially in the turns. I have no doubt that I could do some mods to the E46 to make it comparable or better (faster and more agile) than the Porsche. The Porsche also gives me the ability to do DE events with PCA. I reduced the body roll in the Porsche by adding after market anti-roll bars.

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Quote: As an ex-journeyman machinist there is no reason why a good tech with a good brake lathe couldn't get consistent thickness turning cross drilled or slotted rotors. The rarity of this operation probably arises from brake shops and their reluctance to do this operation. 'course, there is the requirements of a good tech and a good brake lathe. While I have encountered both in some places often one or both are lacking in other places. However, even with a good tech/brake lathe operator and a good brake lathe it can take time, at least two passes. The first to clean up the surfaces of the rotor, the 2nd pass as a finishing pass. There is also the question of how much deviation is there between different rotors? I have no idea of what's ok and what's not ok. But to ensure both rotors end up at the same thickness and still have the legal amount of metal, the brake lathe operator had better be pretty darn good at guessing which rotor is the worst one and getting it cleaned up then bringing the other rotor to its thickness. There can be an issue with CD rotors if the holes are *not* chamfered properly, sufficiently deep enough. Often the CD holes are not drilled but cast and as such have some nasty scale maybe even casting sand (embedded in the scale) still in the holes. If the turning operation gets "below" the chamfering the cutting tool can be chipped from this scale. A work around is to re-chamfer the holes before the resurfacing operation. However, there are a lot of holes and one doesn't want to take the chamfer too deep nor not deep enough so some kind of a drill press with a fixture to hold the rotor and limit the depth of the chamfer to ensure it is 1) deep enough; 2) not too deep; and 3) for looks' sake all are the same depth; adds even more time to the job. Also, as the scale in the holes is hard on the rotor surfacing tool it is likewise hard on the chamfering tool. Now if the brake lathe uses a grinding wheel to resurface the rotors this pretty much eliminates the issue with holes and chamfers. But that machine is going be pretty complex and more expensive and thus the operation will cost more. A lot of extra time to do this right, and this extra time probably turns off most shops from doing the rotors. If one was required to pay for this labor new rotors might be the less expensive option. Easier for the shop to just say it doesn't turn Porsche (really any brand of) CD/slotted rotors and be done with the whole mess. As for the lip thing, that's going to ensure in almost all cases the rotors will be replaced. Rotors develop a lip quite soon after being put into service so unless the rotor is nearly new and one is just replacing the pads due to possibly a bad (defective) pad the rotor will have the lip and thus should be replaced, according to Porsche.

I think you are underestimating the of the 997s, 997s easily walk away from M3s, there is like a 7-10mph trap difference here. Either way, there is something great about the 997 that is hard to quanitify.

Did you happen to use the Blanchard process?

The only reason I would say not to do it is because you have arguably the best color of M3... the one thing I regret about trading my former car for was the color; I had a gorgeous Galaxy Blue Silica BRZ and traded it for a subtle-but-pretty Arctic Silver 997S. Other than that, go for it!

Just wanted to share my two cents here - When I first got my C4S, my brakes squealed like a pig in the last 10 feet of coming to a stop at light/moderate pressures. I inspected the pads and they had about 50-60% life still left in them on both front and rear. Either way, I decided to replace them - ordered some aftermarket textars (as I've read they're the 'OEM supplier' to porsche brakes anyway). When I went in to install them, I notice the previous squealing pads were the exact same textars. The previous owner had also removed the brakepad dampers (the mushrooms / spiders) completely, perhaps he was a track guy and wanted to be able to change the pads easily. Either way, I just swapped the pads, and they still squealed. I went back and ordered genuine OEM porsche pads for all 4 wheels, and the brake pad dampers as well for all front and back calipers. One interesting thing to note - the "genuine porsche" pads looked just like the textars, except that they had two round weights at the top - on both the front and rear units. Once I put in the new dampers and pads, the squealing went away completely. Totally silent braking, it was a huge relief. I can't say for sure whether it was the genuine OEM pads with the weights, or the dampers that removed the squealing. But.. don't skimp, go with genuine porsche if you can, and don't remove the dampers I've read some people have squeal free brakes without the dampers, using textars as well, but that wasn't the case for me, unfortunately!

I had both, imo there is no comparison on any of your points. Hands down, 911 is a better car.

Use videos on this page before working on your brakes and rotors. https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...n+996+portsche

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Quote: Agreed there is no substitute. The 911 is a better car!

If you're careful you can reuse the dampers.

I've owned a 996, which almost immediately I put a set of H&R springs on and it handled much better - referenced to your body-roll reference. The overall feel of the car was in my opinion better than a stock E46 M3. To that point, for several years I owned a highly modded M3. ESS CFR FMIC supercharged beast at 500 HP, with more on tap with another pulley and tune; KWV2 C/O, Eibach F/R sways, ARCA, and too many mods to list. I then owned a 997 base Carrera and mods began immediately starting with coilovers, and several other mods; now I'm into a 997S-1 and ended up going with H&R springs given the relatively low miles. With the engine stock, I believe at 355 HP (for now), and a stock M3 at 333, there's a lot of difference between the 2 - power and handling. The E46 M3's suspension is not all that great (speak of body-roll). Quite frankly, I toyed with the idea of another E46 M3, but it's quite a bit aged, whereas the 911 is just classic (not a fan of 996 - still bitter about the POS I owned). I think if you had the option of having an relatively inexpensive track car, the M3 would be pretty good because you can pick them up rather cheaply today. On the other hand, the 997S is both a great driver and excellent weekend track car while reliable. While BMW may be arguably the "Ultimate Driving Machine", relative to BMW, with Porsche, "There is no Substitute".

Sold

Drive a C2S coupe, not a cab or a C4 both are heavier I had two M3s before my first 911 and I don't know how there is any question in your mind which is better.

Quote: Agreed. Comparing a track prepped M3 to a stock Cab is not a valid compare.

I used to owned an M6 prior to my 997.1S, even with higher power on the M6 the 997S feel much more sportier. Now, I own 997.1TT and no M series cars can compete or compare to it (stock for stock not modify cars). If you're willing to spend a little more and get into 997.1TT or may be 997.2S, I think you won't be disappointing. Good luck

After about 8 years in a E46 M, I made the move last year into 997s...... I don't miss my M3 much

If you want to drive a couch, keep your m3. If you want a proper sports car, there is no substitute.

I have posted too much about this to want to do it again. Search. Bottom line: there is no comparison between these two cars either as daily driver or track tool. Anyone who cannot grasp the superiority of the 997 after the first 30 secs should save their money and invest in a different hobby. Sorry op but sometimes love does not really stand up to close scrutiny. Keep your car, stay with your fellow M3 board members and be happy. That is what it is about, no?

Based on what I had before... 997.1 S > m6 > m3 Like someone said once you are in porsche you are never going back... Lol...

Honestly, if you can keep the e46 m3, I would. They are only going up in value. If I had to pick one I would go 997 all day. I am in the market for an e46 M3, 6 speed. Let me know if you end up posting for it for sale. Good luck.

Reason #3515135 to sell your BMW: http://jalopnik.com/ultimate-level-b...-pi-1713911021

I considered an E90/92 M3 before going with a 997... E46 M3 was the same era as the 997.1's but not the same performance bracket and much lower in the purchase price bracket (they're a great performance value; make no mistake on that!). In the end I wanted a purer sports car since I already have a full size V8 people hauler. I also don't love most BMW interiors; too drab/unimaginative IMO.

I moved from an E46 M3 to an '07 997S. How do they compare? The E46 was on coil overs to make it not look like a 4x4. It was too stiff, my friends and family hated the ride. Never touched the suspension on the 997. Went to the Porsche driving school and learned how to drive it. Had to add a rasp terminator on the M3. Worst sounding exhaust on any car I've ever owned. Added a air box on the 997, sound from 4500 and up was awesome. Didn't even do exhaust and I've done exhaust on every car I've owned. Had an SMG M3. What a POS. Had a manual E92, worst manual I've ever owned. Don't know about the E46. But the 997 had a perfect manual. Stiff clutch, but not too stiff. The feel was just right. The shifter was tight and precise. Heel and toe downshifting was a breeze. The e92 shifter was rubbery, the clutch WAY too light and the gas pedal way too sensitive. The BMW brakes were way too touchy. The Porsche brakes always have perfect feel. Very light action when you first touch them and then pull hard when you step on them. The E46 brakes are better??? Are you kidding? On the track??? 997S stock brakes will get you around lap after lap. The M3 brakes have always been crap. Total crap. A joke in fact. How many M3s get big brake kits? How many do you see on 997s or turbos? Hardly any. The 997 has a completely different position. Excellent visibility, but much lower than an M3. The m3 is a 3 series BMW. The Porsche is a 911. The M3 is the most practical, fast, fun car you can get. I loved to put my bike in mine by putting the seats down. Can't do that with my turbo. I still take both my kids in the back of my turbo. There is a little less room, but there is still enough. If you think your new family is going to enjoy the ride in a car with coil overs, you may want to think again. Oh, FWIW, I went from the 997S to an E92M3. I've had the E36 as well. The E92 was a HUGE disappointment. Nice sound, but no torque whatsoever. Anyway, I hope that is food for thought.

Hi OP. I currently own/drive both cars. My e46 m3 has a similar build like yours and is a zcp. My 997.1 is stock. On paper you may think they are the same but in reality a big difference - with all props going to the 911. You should drive a coupe/CS model to really get a better comparison (with sport chrono and PSE). But if you feel it's a even match, keep the the e46. Still a great car. But no 997.

Excellent points all around, guys. I agree there is no substitute for a 911 which is why I'm shopping for my 2nd one! However, I test drove another 997.1S this weekend (this one on H&R sports, Fabspeed exhaust, SSK) and had a similar reaction as before: power felt more-or-less equivalent to the M3 (despite the purported 0.3-0.5 second advantage to 60, etc). Handling, stance, tightness, and overall vibe was far superior. Brakes weren't as good...sorry, they just haven't been, at least in the ones I'm testing, and at least compared to race pads/ss lines/MPSS on my M3. I think the power is really the issue (b/c I'll likely upgrade brakes and suspension anyway). If I'm gonna double/triple the cost of the car, part of me feels like it should be reasonably/noticeably faster. I wonder if I should be looking at a 997.2S instead of a 997.1S? But there have been tons of threads (yes, I've searched) that say the extra 30hp doesn't feel all that significant. I know none of these are built to be dragsters, but for the sake of argument, the 997.1S would probably pull away from the M3 (although they actually don't on the track), and the 997.2S would probably kill it, and I'd likely turn faster lap times in either of them than my M3. But it's an odd feeling when your 12 year old, cheap car with 120k miles feels similarly fast to the car you really think you want. Still conflicted. I'm sure I'll end up in another 911 soon, just not sure which one. Gonna try and test drive a 997.2S/4S next. And maybe just wait for the 997.1/.2TT's to drop in price a bit more...

A 997.2 GTS has an extra 23 hp over a C2S, add Sharkwerks exhaust.. takes it up another 10hp to 418hp, cuts 9lb from rear, and makes it sound even more special. The 997 GTS also has special trim, the wider rear, and is Porsche's last car with hydraulic steering. (attributes that make it special) just a suggestion.. i don't mention the gt3 because you need a car seat. Given the list of cars you've previously owned, may I also suggest that you might want to consider a used 2011/12 V8 Audi S5 with manual, or for new, the upcoming M2, or the Alfa Giulia Quadrofolio. Now those are some Stylish and Really high performing family friendly cars to choose from who are at least on par with an E46 M3.

Dr. FeelGood, Having gone from the E92 to a 997.2 TTS, I have loved every moment. Drivability, appearance, safety, reliability etc. However, the M3's DCT was always a winner compared to the 997's PDK, but this seems to have been rectified in later PDK variants. Cheers,

Based on your latest comments I don't think the 997 is for you. Either keep your E46 M3 (which seems like its tuned a bit for track duty) or go look at 997 TT for the added hp and tq. Don't waste your time, you're not feeling the 997.

This is silly. A 997 will smoke an E46. .1 or .2 makes no matter. And the brakes? C'mon.

Can't believe OP is still stuck here. You just cannot compare the 2 cars and .1 or .2 has nothing to do with this. As I said a while back if you do not get the difference you should not proceed. With all due respect I think you might ask yourself what is really bothering you. I'm not sure the answer is to be found on this forum. Good luck