£20k 996 turbo ownership within 6 months? - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

This one at £23,800 looks like a great car http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... I've been a big fan of 911 Turbos since I was a kid and I'm pretty sure within the next 6 months I'll be able to pick one up for £20k which seems to be a stonking amount of car for the money (my next door neighbour paid 9 grand less for a Focus on finance!) Could anyone tell me the main things I should look out for in these cars? I'd also be grateful for a rough estimate of annual charges I should be expecting to pay as a daily car on 30,000 miles per year? Finally, anyone run this car in the snow on winter tyres ever had any problems? I live up in the Pennines and we do get some light snow/ice nearly every winter.

You probably will be able to buy one for £20k but in a less sought after colour, tip, high mileage. I would very much buy on condition. At that price definitely have a ppi done or it could be a very expensive purchase in the longer term!

I think that the majority of folks on this forum would say that prices are holding and heading upwards, if anything. At £20K you'll be getting a lot of miles and potentially lots of problems to sort out...

996t prices are edging up at the moment, so a £20k one will be an early, high mileage one, and could well end up requiring a few £k's spending on it. 30k (!) miles a year will not be cheap to run. A full set of tyres is £1k, a major service £1k (inc plugs), smaller service a few hundred. Things to look for are turbo actuators, turbo's, rads, MAF's can cause problems. A search will throw up a few more areas. I had an ABS unit fail on mine which was £2600 :-( Great vfm to buy, but you can't skip maintenance.

I have just sold my 2002 manual red with black leather. 95k miles with full dealer history. All new suspension, reds, brakes, etc etc. Had an inspection and needed an ac pipe and the rear spoiler lift repaired. It went at £20k within 3 days of mention on PH They are out there, contradicting others views, just because it is high mileage, doesn't mean it has big bills ahead. Cars deteriorate with age as well as use

ATV said: This one at £23,800 looks like a great car http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p... I've been a big fan of 911 Turbos since I was a kid and I'm pretty sure within the next 6 months I'll be able to pick one up for £20k which seems to be a stonking amount of car for the money (my next door neighbour paid 9 grand less for a Focus on finance!) Could anyone tell me the main things I should look out for in these cars? I'd also be grateful for a rough estimate of annual charges I should be expecting to pay as a daily car on 30,000 miles per year? Finally, anyone run this car in the snow on winter tyres ever had any problems? I live up in the Pennines and we do get some light snow/ice nearly every winter. The 996 Turbo is just a used car so you need to give it a thorough used car check out. This starts with a visit to the car with the car cold. Turn off the A/C. (This keeps the radiator fans off until the coolant temperature gets quite warm. And you check the A/C's operation later.) When you turn on the key confirm all warning lights come on -- especially the CEL! -- and all go off when the engine fires and begins to run. Listen to the engine. If you have never heard a 996 Turbo engine at cold idle before it will sound a bit rough. This is due to the low valve lift being active (part of the VarioCam Plus system) and the DME fueling the engine a bit rich to provide raw fuel to the converters which helps warm the converters up quicker. The exhaust system is quite good at suppressing any real noise but if you listen carefully you can hear backfires which arise from this rich condition. But as the engine idles and warms up the idle speed falls and the engine gets quite smooth You do not want to hear any ticking, knocking or other abnormal noises. Continue to let the engine idle as you walk around the car checking the body's condition. After a while then have the seller take you on a test drive. The route should be around 15 miles long and give the driver a chance to demo the car as you will use it. Really the car wants to be driven in a good mixture of ways. When the engine is fully up to temperature have the driver do a hard acceleration from 1st or 2nd and up to nearly redline and then continue into another gear. The engine wants to pull strongly and smoothly all the way through the RPM range and resume this after the shift. Afterwards the engine should settle into a smooth idle. After the test ride then back at the starting point you take the car out as the driver. Follow the same route. Drive the car the same way. Watch the oil pressure. Hot idle oil pressure runs from around 2 bar to 1.5 bar. It depends upon the ambient temperature somewhat. Hot days has the idle oil pressure of my 03 Turbo at nearly 1.5 bar. Cooler days closer to 2.0 bar. If the oil pressure is higher this might be a sign the engine has some very heavy oil in it to quiet the engine down. If it is really low this could be a sign the engine's worn out or running the wrong (too thin?) oil. At around 3K RPMs the oil pressure should be close to if not at 4 bar. For a manual equipped car be sure to drive the car in 2nd gear accelerating and then slowing down using engine compression to test for 2nd gear pop out. If you feel the clutch pedal pulsing a bit as you use the clutch this is a sign the clutch accumulator is bad. After you turn off the engine check the clutch pedal action. If it is not as easy to depress as it was when the engine was running this is further sign the clutch accumulator is bad. If you see fluid stain on top of the panel under the front trunk lid on the left hand side of the car where there is a small fluid reservoir this is from a bad clutch slave cylinder. Generally the accumulator and the slave cylinder go bad concurrently. If you buy the car you should adjust your offer price to allow for the cost of a new accumulator and clutch slave cylinder. You want a history of regular services. These engines are quite solid (one example here in the USA has covered over 420K miles) but need regular servicing to deliver their best. Plugs should be changed every 24K or 30K miles (I can't recall the miles now) or every 4 years. Brake fluid flush and bleed is done every 2 years regardless of miles. After the test ride and drive if you still like the car then give it a thorough used car check out. Test everything. Assume nothing works until you confirm it. Lights. Horn. A/C. Radio. Even raising engine RPMs to say 1200 and holding until coolant temperature climbs enough to trigger on the radiator fans. (I have had two radiate fans go bad: The 1st snapped the motor shaft and took out the radiator. The 2nd just stopped working.) Open the engine compartment lid -- be careful the engine compartment fan can come on any time even if the engine is off -- and check the spoiler cylinders any leak sign. If you find leak sign assume the worst and budget for a new spoiler. ($2000 here in the USA if you go with a factory supplied dealer (OPC) installed replacement.) After your used car check out and if you still like the car, believe you can buy it for a reasonable sum of money get a PPI by someone who knows theses cars inside and out. A PPI involves, among other things, checking for leaks. Where? Everywhere. The water pump, transmission seals, RMS, camshaft covers, front diff seals, coolant hose fittings at the block, at the radiators. Everywhere there is a hose fitting/connection, gasket, seal, o-ring. Do not dismiss a small leak. My 03 had a selector shaft leak at the transmission. To repair would have cost around $6K. As it was the car was under warranty and a new transmission was installed. ($11K if I had to pay for this out of pocket.) Axle flange seals cost me around $800 to have replaced to fix a front diff leak. Water pump along with the T-stat and fresh coolant cost me $1800. RMS leak: $1700 to fix. The DME overrev counters and engine run time timers will be read. The inspector can go over what these mean if there is anything to be concerned about. As for running costs... 30K miles per year is a lot of miles. Since I bought my 03 Turbo in 2009 with just 10K miles on it I have averaged around 23K miles per year. (With my 02 Boxster I've averaged around 26K miles per year.) Fuel will be a big expense. On the freeway my Turbo delivers 26mpg. Around town drop that to 20mpg or even less, down to the mid teens. Servicing will also cost. I have the oil/filter service done every 5K miles. (I used to run Mobil 1 0w-40 oil but recently switched over to Mobil 1 5w-50 oil (not a typo for 15w-50!) because winter temperatures mild where I live/drive while summer temperatures can climb in the triple digits.) Plugs will have to be changed once a year or every 24K or 30K miles. With a proper alignment and reasonable driving rear tires should last 20K miles or sometimes a bit more while front tires last double to 40K miles. However, while there is still some tread left the front tires get noisy and hard/slick from all the heat cycling. Oh, I run N-rated Bridgestone or Continental tires. Both are good tires. Anyhow, I replace the front tires every 2nd set of rear tires. Tire wear should be even across the tread face on both the front and rear tires. If the inner tires show wear on their inner edges this is an alignment problem (toe not camber!) and should be addressed. With an improper alignment rear tires can be worn out in 8K miles. Might mention the brakes lasted around 120K miles before the warning light came on. The front brakes were worn out and cost over $1000 to renew. (Pads, discs, hardware.) With the car in for servicing so often the tech gets a chance to inspect the car for any signs of trouble. But you still need keep your eyes and ears and noise open. Look for leak sign. Listen for odd/abnormal noises. Twice now my Turbo has developed problems with its idle roller bearings. The first time I heard a "dry bearing" sound. The second time the bearing generated a chirp chirp chirp sound. On a real hot day after spending some time driving in a parking lot with the A/C off -- my Mom was in the car and didn't like the cool air blowing on her -- I caught a whiff of anti-freeze. The temperature gage needle was a bit beyond where it usually was though not by a scary amount. At the dealer the tech found signs of a bad water pump -- a blob of dried anti-freeze residue behind the water pump pulley -- and a non-functioning radiator fan. Remember these cars cost $120K (or more) when new. They cost like the dickens to work on. Even though my Turbo is 11 years old the dealer doesn't offer me a discount on labor. (Belonging to Porsche Club of America gets me a 15% discount on parts, though.) Every service of the Turbo takes more time than a comparable service on say the Boxster. Parts cost more, too.

Rockster said: [Awesome post snipped] Thanks for the advice, but it almost seems like you don't want me to buy one Seriously though, that was a fantastic post, I'll be sure to keep my wits about me

I doubt many sellers would be happy with two 15 mile test drives???

ATV said: Thanks for the advice, but it almost seems like you don't want me to buy one Seriously though, that was a fantastic post, I'll be sure to keep my wits about me Whether you buy this car or another Turbo or if you do not buy any Turbo does not make any difference to me. I was just trying to help give yourself a good chance of determining the condition of a car and whether it is bad or good and if it was good to know what you might be up against. My Turbo has been a bit of a disappointment what with all that has gone wrong with it. When i bought it with just 10K miles and a 2 year/100K CPO warranty I thought I was covered. I drove the car quite a bit the two years the warranty was in effect, putting around 50K miles on the car. Things happened: radiator fan motor shaft snapped, idler roller bearing went bad, clutch accumulator/clutch slave cylinder failed, shifter linkage snapped, leaking seal in the transmission; but all were covered by the warranty. When the warranty expired with around 60K miles on the car I thought the Turbo would be like my Boxster which has been relatively trouble free. But things still went wrong with the Turbo. Noisy valve in the power steering system which cost $1K to address; more idler roller bearing issues (the Boxster's idlers/tension are original with now almost 286K miles on them); water pump (Boxster water pump went out at 172K miles); RMS (Boxster's was replaced at 25K miles and has remained fluid tight since); another radiator fan problem (Boxster fan motors are original); axle flange seals; spoiler (Boxster's is original and working just fine). While I knew the Turbo was an expensive vehicle new -- I have the original sticker for mine: it retailed for over $119K -- and would therefore cost more to service/repair I thought it would be even more durable than my Boxster which cost just $47K. Based on my experience, and what I have picked up over the years, the best buy of a modern Porsche is the base model Boxster, Cayman or 911. RWD drive, manual (or Tip), narrow body, and as few options as one can stand. (I can't do without auto climate control and cruise control.) These base model cars are the lightest examples, cost less to buy and service and deliver the best fuel economy. Consumables last longer and cost less to replace when they need replacing. They are also the most balanced cars. While my Turbo is frighteningly fast, and thankfully has the chassis/suspension/brakes that match its speed capabilities, it has more power than I can ever use on the street legally. But not everyone has had the same experience as I have. Shop Turbos if you want. They are awesome cars. I feel like a Swiss banker when I drive mine. (I need the income of a Swiss banker to keep it in good repair!) Whether you buy a Turbo or another model, make sure you buy a good one. The general rule is to have set aside 10% of the car's purchase price to have just in case something goes wrong. No matter how good of a check out you do, even if the car is not exhibiting the slightest sign of any trouble, things can go wrong very quickly. With a Turbo that 10% guideline may be a bit thin.

KungFuPanda said: I doubt many sellers would be happy with two 15 mile test drives??? Two 15 mile test drives are critical to properly evaluating the car. The cold start followed by some idling, followed by a 15 mile test ride, followed by a 15 mile test drive, give the DME time to run through all its systems tests. The engine/drivetrain all get up to operating temperature and remain there for a while. If there are any leaks this almost certainly means they'll become active and when the buyer's check out is followed by a PPI (as it should be) the PPI has a better chance of turning up a leak. If the seller balks, either there is something he's hiding, or hopes to keep hidden, or he's clueless as what is required to properly evaluate one of these cars. Given the risk of buying a sick Turbo and facing the horrific expense of putting things right I'd walk away if the seller refuses what I believe to be the necessary on the road check out of the car. And it isn't only me. Techs I have talked to advise the same. One has to spend time in the car in its natural state, with the engine running and the car being used as a car.

I suppose you're right. The turbo is a special car. I'm currently selling my own 996 albeit not a turbo but wouldn't mind giving the seller a long rest drive. Personally when I've test driven other cars, the drives were very short. Maybe I should be more demanding!

I suppose you're right. The turbo is a special car. I'm currently selling my own 996 albeit not a turbo but wouldn't mind giving the seller a long rest drive. Personally when I've test driven other cars, the drives were very short. Maybe I should be more demanding!

Seems to be very few early manual 996tt for sale right now

ATV said: Could anyone tell me the main things I should look out for in these cars? I'd also be grateful for a rough estimate of annual charges I should be expecting to pay as a daily car on 30,000 miles per year? Finally, anyone run this car in the snow on winter tyres ever had any problems? I live up in the Pennines and we do get some light snow/ice nearly every winter. Rockster did a very detailed list or what to inspect on but I would add do a proper PPI from someone you trust. I got Ken at Nine Excellence to do the PPI. Servicing costs for 30k p.a., you would need the following so a rough total to c.£7-8,000 p.a. - 3 services (so say £1,200 to £1,500), - at least 2 rears and 1 front sets of tyres (£1,250), - 1 front set and maybe half rear sets of rear brakes every 30k (c.£1,000 p.a.). - General things to repair / replace as they happen such as suspension arms and bushes, shock absorbers, rads, a/c condensers, clutch accumulators, slave cylinders, rams for the wing, clutch assembly, etcetera, which should add to a long term average of c.£1,500 per 10k p.a. but possibly lower if you use the car a lot. Lastly, winters are available. Michelin Alpine with same size fronts but 265 section rears on 18" wheels.

ATV said: I've been a big fan of 911 Turbos since I was a kid and I'm pretty sure within the next 6 months I'll be able to pick one up for £20k which seems to be a stonking amount of car for the money (my next door neighbour paid 9 grand less for a Focus on finance!) You can probably pick one up for £20k now if you're not fussy about colour/age/mileage/spec, and are happy to buy a bit of a pup. But I don't think prices on 996 turbos are dropping at all, certainly mine didn't lose any money in 2 years ownership and prices have been fairly stable in the time since I sold it. They are fantastic cars.

im looking for a silver manual 996 turbo car...! any car considered even a non-runner...!

Finding a decent one at that price will be possible but a needle in a haystack. There typically is a reason why these are sold privately and the cheapest specialist cars start at 26k and it is not a 6k profit for the specialist. Don't be put off by mileage, chances are that the cars 120,000 miles and over will have a good mechanical history, just cosmetically worn. Either way they are not a cheap car to run.

When buying from a private seller how does the PPI work? I presume the buyer is responsible for paying this and if the seller has nothing to hide, then the buyer can specify which specialist he would like to go to. Does the seller then arrange to meet the buyer at the garage? Then I presume hang about all day together and wait for the report? Then finally the buyer gets the report and then haggles with the seller for a bit more off the selling price for the works needed? If nothing can be agreed then both parties walk away and the buyer is out his PPI. I presume the seller then has to relist his car and probably wasted a Saturday trying to sell a car but failing. So maybe a non-refundable deposit is in order? In which case the buyer could be out a few PPI inspection reports before he finally finds one he likes?

We dropped our 996 at GT One, as agreed with the buyer. We carried on with life. GT One provided a report to the buyer then the buyer mentioned a few points to us. We knocked off £500 and met him at GT One a couple of days after to complete the handover.

hygt2 said: Rockster did a very detailed list or what to inspect on but I would add do a proper PPI from someone you trust. I got Ken at Nine Excellence to do the PPI. Servicing costs for 30k p.a., you would need the following so a rough total to c.£7-8,000 p.a. - 3 services (so say £1,200 to £1,500), - at least 2 rears and 1 front sets of tyres (£1,250), - 1 front set and maybe half rear sets of rear brakes every 30k (c.£1,000 p.a.). - General things to repair / replace as they happen such as suspension arms and bushes, shock absorbers, rads, a/c condensers, clutch accumulators, slave cylinders, rams for the wing, clutch assembly, etcetera, which should add to a long term average of c.£1,500 per 10k p.a. but possibly lower if you use the car a lot. Lastly, winters are available. Michelin Alpine with same size fronts but 265 section rears on 18" wheels. Did about 60 miles per day in my Turbo when I drove it daily -- work commute -- and the front brakes lasted around 120K miles. The rears appear they'll last another 120K miles. Rear tires last 20K miles but require a proper alignment. Incorrect toe (in or out) kills rear tires. Front tires last double to 40K miles. So I replace a set of rear tires then when the 2nd set is due I replace all 4 tires.

Rockster said: Did about 60 miles per day in my Turbo when I drove it daily -- work commute -- and the front brakes lasted around 120K miles. The rears appear they'll last another 120K miles. Rear tires last 20K miles but require a proper alignment. Incorrect toe (in or out) kills rear tires. Front tires last double to 40K miles. So I replace a set of rear tires then when the 2nd set is due I replace all 4 tires. That's really impressive on the brakes. Is your car on PCCB brakes? I live in central London and travel mostly in the South East and therefore brakes tend to be used heavier. Front pads last 30k miles, 45k miles on the rears. Discs on every 2nd sets of pads. My usage are 50% central London ( average 9 mph and 11 mpg ), 20% motorway ( average 45 mph and 29 mpg ) and 30% country roads drive ( average 30 mph and 18 mpg ). No track days. My rear tyres last 15k miles and double that for the front, again with proper alignment.

Just to add to the advice here on purchasing a Turbo, I'd look closely at the rads and condensers at the front of the car - leaves and general road muck can get in here and impair their functioning. Usual Porsche stuff, but worth a mention. Plus, check the tyres are N-rated and all the same make; sounds dumb, but on a 20k example corners may have been cut, and budget tyres is usually a good indicator of a previous owner not being able to afford to spend the sort of money that's required to keep these cars in good mechanical shape. Remember, these cars were £85k+ when new - running them isn't cheap! Can't offer much more than has already been mentioned, really. I bought mine earlier this year and did a lot of homework beforehand - Google '996 Turbo Buying Guide' and you'll get plenty of useful info. I get 23mpg on mixed road driving, and 8mpg on track. You'll get very friendly with your local Shell garage! Insurance for me was around £540 for 5,000 miles per year, but that includes UK track day coverage. YMMV. Edited by martyspain on Monday 3rd November 14:35

hygt2 said: That's really impressive on the brakes. Is your car on PCCB brakes? I live in central London and travel mostly in the South East and therefore brakes tend to be used heavier. Front pads last 30k miles, 45k miles on the rears. Discs on every 2nd sets of pads. My usage are 50% central London ( average 9 mph and 11 mpg ), 20% motorway ( average 45 mph and 29 mpg ) and 30% country roads drive ( average 30 mph and 18 mpg ). No track days. My rear tyres last 15k miles and double that for the front, again with proper alignment. Not PCCB brakes. Iron. Techs tell me if I had a car with PCCBs the brakes would last forever for me. (My next Porsche will have PCCB's on the short list of must have options.) When braking I try to brake a bit later than "normal" but nothing too dramatic to avoid upsetting following vehicles. By braking later and harder this seems to help extend brake life. Those long slow rolls to a stop with the brakes applied the whole time seems to wear out brakes quicker. Also, with a manual transmission equipped car I use engine braking. I do not downshift to slow the car as this just trades brake wear for clutch wear. Clutch wear seems to be very low. At around 110K miles I had the RMS done and the clutch was exposed. Both the tech and I checked (measured) the friction disc thickness and found no measurable wear. I expect (hope) I'll get 250K miles maybe more from my Turbo's clutch. Don't laugh. My 02 Boxster with 286K miles is on its original clutch. 15K miles rear tire life is not too bad but as I think I have mentioned earlier in a post expect to get and most of the time do get 20K miles. (One set delivered 23K miles and still had 3mm of tread left which was enough that one tire with a nail was replaced free of charge covered by road hazard insurance.) Oh, No track days for my car either. And I'm judicious with the throttle going around corners.

Rockster said: Not PCCB brakes. Iron. Techs tell me if I had a car with PCCBs the brakes would last forever for me. (My next Porsche will have PCCB's on the short list of must have options.) When braking I try to brake a bit later than "normal" but nothing too dramatic to avoid upsetting following vehicles. By braking later and harder this seems to help extend brake life. Those long slow rolls to a stop with the brakes applied the whole time seems to wear out brakes quicker. Also, with a manual transmission equipped car I use engine braking. I do not downshift to slow the car as this just trades brake wear for clutch wear. Clutch wear seems to be very low. At around 110K miles I had the RMS done and the clutch was exposed. Both the tech and I checked (measured) the friction disc thickness and found no measurable wear. I expect (hope) I'll get 250K miles maybe more from my Turbo's clutch. Don't laugh. My 02 Boxster with 286K miles is on its original clutch. 15K miles rear tire life is not too bad but as I think I have mentioned earlier in a post expect to get and most of the time do get 20K miles. (One set delivered 23K miles and still had 3mm of tread left which was enough that one tire with a nail was replaced free of charge covered by road hazard insurance.) Oh, No track days for my car either. And I'm judicious with the throttle going around corners. Those are impressive achievements, in terms of brake/tyre/clutch longevity. I can't get anywhere near the figures that you state. I have the geo set correctly and don't consider myself an aggressive driver, especially around town in the stop/go/stop environment. 20K from a set of rears is tremendous. I'm less than half of that. Fronts do last between 2 and 3 times the mileage of rears.

Nobby Diesel said: Those are impressive achievements, in terms of brake/tyre/clutch longevity. I can't get anywhere near the figures that you state. I have the geo set correctly and don't consider myself an aggressive driver, especially around town in the stop/go/stop environment. 20K from a set of rears is tremendous. I'm less than half of that. Fronts do last between 2 and 3 times the mileage of rears. Have to question the geo numbers/settings. There are differences of opinions on what constitutes a proper geo for these cars. This comes from I believe the factory allowed variations in the settings. Some settings allow for more rear toe in and this increase in toe in eats rear tires on their inner edges. My tech applies less aggressive toe in settings and the car feels quite good on the road, even at elevated speeds (165mph max.) and yet tire life is as I mentioned earlier quite good. The one time my car received the more aggressive alignment settings -- unbeknownst to me -- the rear tires were gone in around 8K miles.

Rockster said: Some settings allow for more rear toe in and this increase in toe in eats rear tires on their inner edges Do you mean negative camber? Toe in should wear the outside edge and toe out wears inner edge. From memory, the 996 Turbo rear camber is c. -1.0 to -1.1 from factory and wears the inner edge if not corner hard. Funny enough the front camber is only -0.5 to -0.6 against other 4WD cars, such as EVOs or Imprezas which has matching negative camber front and rear. I think the lesser negative camber at the front axis of the 996 Turbo contributed to its natural tendency to under-steer when driving near the limit, despite feeling RWD when under power. I discussed with Wheels In Motion that at the next geo setup, we will keep the rear geo stock but increase the negative camber to -1.0 at the front - and live with wearing inner edge at the front.

hygt2 said: Do you mean negative camber? Toe in should wear the outside edge and toe out wears inner edge. From memory, the 996 Turbo rear camber is c. -1.0 to -1.1 from factory and wears the inner edge if not corner hard. Funny enough the front camber is only -0.5 to -0.6 against other 4WD cars, such as EVOs or Imprezas which has matching negative camber front and rear. I think the lesser negative camber at the front axis of the 996 Turbo contributed to its natural tendency to under-steer when driving near the limit, despite feeling RWD when under power. I discussed with Wheels In Motion that at the next geo setup, we will keep the rear geo stock but increase the negative camber to -1.0 at the front - and live with wearing inner edge at the front. Nope. I mean toe (either in or out). Too much toe in or out eats the inner edges. With too much positive toe (toe in) the tires scrub from the outside in and with negative toe (toe out) the tires scrub from the inside out. In this case of too much toe in or toe out then camber plays a role in the wear as during some of the time the rear tire is lightly loaded but because of camber the inner edge is more heavily loaded than the outer edge and the inner edge of the tire will wear faster. The idea is to select a toe setting (in or positive) that has the tires scrubbing the least when the car is underway. Remember alignment settings are static settings that in a dynamic environment - the car moving down the road undergoing acceleration, braking, cornering -- have the tires pointed in the ideal direction most of the time. A recent alignment of my Turbo the tech adjusted the rear toe from 0 degs 05' to 0 degs 10'. IOWs he cranked the toe in a bit. The factory manual gives this for the rear toe setting: +10' +/- 5" So my car left with +10' of toe in (positive toe). Based on my experience over a number of sets of tires, this setting delivers very good tire life. My comments regarding camber still apply. Next time you are behind a Porsche that is underway note the rear tires will appear as if they have lost their camber. Underway is a lot different than the car sitting on the alignment rack. With correct toe though you can run more camber, though this is not a carte blanche to go over board thinking that if some's good more's better. In one case a shop released my Boxster with as much rear camber as the factory spec allowed (before the setting when into red I guess). When I protested about this and voiced a concern about tire life the shop owner assured me tire life would be very good. I had my doubts but took the car and tire life was very good. As good as at any other time. Camber doesn't matter nearly as much as toe. Too much camber at the front tires can make the car darty on the street. While on the track the car reacts quicker to steering wheel inputs this quicker reaction can make the car on the street a bit unpleasant to drive. Frankly with the very wide tires these cars are darty enough with the less aggressive camber setting.

Rockster said: Nope. I mean toe (either in or out). Too much toe in or out eats the inner edges. With too much positive toe (toe in) the tires scrub from the outside in and with negative toe (toe out) the tires scrub from the inside out. In this case of too much toe in or toe out then camber plays a role in the wear as during some of the time the rear tire is lightly loaded but because of camber the inner edge is more heavily loaded than the outer edge and the inner edge of the tire will wear faster. The idea is to select a toe setting (in or positive) that has the tires scrubbing the least when the car is underway. Remember alignment settings are static settings that in a dynamic environment - the car moving down the road undergoing acceleration, braking, cornering -- have the tires pointed in the ideal direction most of the time. A recent alignment of my Turbo the tech adjusted the rear toe from 0 degs 05' to 0 degs 10'. IOWs he cranked the toe in a bit. The factory manual gives this for the rear toe setting: +10' +/- 5" So my car left with +10' of toe in (positive toe). Based on my experience over a number of sets of tires, this setting delivers very good tire life. My comments regarding camber still apply. Next time you are behind a Porsche that is underway note the rear tires will appear as if they have lost their camber. Underway is a lot different than the car sitting on the alignment rack. With correct toe though you can run more camber, though this is not a carte blanche to go over board thinking that if some's good more's better. In one case a shop released my Boxster with as much rear camber as the factory spec allowed (before the setting when into red I guess). When I protested about this and voiced a concern about tire life the shop owner assured me tire life would be very good. I had my doubts but took the car and tire life was very good. As good as at any other time. Camber doesn't matter nearly as much as toe. Got it, I understand. Rockster said: Too much camber at the front tires can make the car darty on the street. While on the track the car reacts quicker to steering wheel inputs this quicker reaction can make the car on the street a bit unpleasant to drive. Frankly with the very wide tires these cars are darty enough with the less aggressive camber setting. Er ... shouldn't narrower tyres give more responsive/"dartier" handling? My understanding is that narrower tyres and/or lighter tyres should have less inertia when corning, resulting in the tyres quicker to settle into its slip angle from constant straight ahead to constant cornering. Hence I insist on having 225 section at the front instead of some people's "upgrading" to 235 section. You can feel it through "hinting" at the steering wheel too. The steering gets heavier as you turn as slip angle are generated (i.e. momentarily the alloy and the tyre are not pointing in the same direction as the tyre wall is twisted). Once the steering input is completed, the tyre will take a short time to catch up (i.e. the tyre catches up to point in the same direction as the alloy) and the steering wheel becomes slightly lighter when the tyre and alloy are pointing in the same direction. An article I read put it simply as "the search for nothing" (i.e. from the build-up to the subsiding of steering feel as you dial in steering locks, noticeable on 996 but less so in 997) - when you feel nothing, you can then apply more power more safely. Sorry I digressed from the subject of the thread - this is now more about limit handling on drivers training, tyre construction and suspension engineering

There's a black one on eBay @ £22k 75,000 miles and Tip. Seems decent value if service history checks out. Look at this on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=... PORSCHE 911 TURBO 996 TURBO

Spaceman2001 said: There's a black one on eBay @ £22k 75,000 miles and Tip. Seems decent value if service history checks out. Look at this on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=... PORSCHE 911 TURBO 996 TURBO Gone already - did you buy it? Good price if everything checks out.

well this thread has rather shattered a dream of 996 turbo ownership for me. started looking at 996 carreras, realised that 997 carreras were also in budget - then realised I should be looking at turbos instead due to the carreras bore scoring problems - which arent present on the turbo engines So the 996 turbo wont melt its engine but it is prone to a number of high cost faults, which when added up might be the same as the 996 bore scoring issue in £'s so with my £20,000 budget I now wonder if porsches are going to be a lot of trouble?

hman said: So the 996 turbo wont melt its engine but it is prone to a number of high cost faults, which when added up might be the same as the 996 bore scoring issue in £'s so with my £20,000 budget I now wonder if porsches are going to be a lot of trouble? I would not say 996 Turbo is prone to a number of high cost faults but rather very high cost of individual component. I should highlight that these are not components breakdowns but rather normal components wear and tear which other cars also suffer. As a comparison, I had the change a condenser on my 95 MR2 and the single Denso condenser cost the same as the pair of condensers on the 996. The (air spring) strut on my W220 S-Class is £1,500 + VAT part only per strut which is more expensive than a spring and damper on a 996 per corner !!! Even tyres, each of my S-Class tyres (c.£250 Michelin MO-rated) costs the same as the rears of the 996 Turbo but at least the front 996 Turbo tyre is half of the price to the rear!!! Like for like, my W220 S-Class and my 996 Turbo both cost very similar at new price. Now the 12-year old 996 Turbo is cheaper to run than my 11-year old Merc on an annual basis. £20,000 is going to get you a very, very nice 996 C4S or 996 C2/C4 with change or a still nice 997. The question you should be asking is if you can afford the servicing and maintenance costs. They are old cars now and there will always be age related and under-use issues like rubber in bushes splitting and exposed metal corrosion like radiators, condensers and rear under-carriage (911 never had under-tray at the back so nuts and bolts and plates under the engine get corroded). As a result, at each service, there will always be additional items needed doing. A couple of my friends who runs 996 C4 low mileage (c. 6-7,000 miles per year) who use specialist Paragon for 6-7 years in a row now always said each visit annual visit is always c.£2,000 - sometimes it was £1,500 and sometimes it was £2,500. From speaking to people like 911 Virgin or Porscraft is that some people cannot afford or choose not to spend and after 3 year, the car ended up with £4,500 worth of repair backlog. Then the car becomes unsaleable or the owner hope to sell privately to an uneducated buyer who do not do a PPI. I was discussing with Ken at 9E once where a guy bought what was a low mileage 996 a Turbo for £30k which he thought was well maintained and upon the first service needed c.£8k of servicing and maintenance work. The owner then had a dilemma whether to spend and do the work or trade it in but the down side would be that the car would only be worth £18k to those like 911V. We can help guide you but the running costs is your decision.