Cayman R Vs GT3 - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Please can we stop hijacking threads about the GT3 by banging on about the Cayman R and vice versa. It's getting very boring to start reading an interesting thread a la GT3 RS one from a few days ago to find that yet again, there's some nonsense spouted about the Cayman R. For anybody who truly wants to know which is "better", please could we channel that here, so that at least anybody who is interested in the debate can harp on about it as long as they like and the rest of us can read threads that stay on topic! For the record, the pre-991 GT3 is a far superior car to the Cayman R for anybody who actually likes to drive. (I haven't driven a 991 GT3 yet, so can't comment on what that is like to drive). The GT3 sounds a lot better, has way more feel, is a lot quicker in pretty much every guise and feels way more special. Chasing down the redline in a GT3 is simply a wonderful experience. This doesn't mean that the CR is an utter piece of crap either - it's a perfectly good road car, handles well enough and is fun in its own right and makes a better noise than a 997 generation Carrera but it is not as good as a GT3 in any sense. You've probably read some utter drivel about gear ratios etc and how the R is so much better as a road car because it has better gear ratios than a GT3 - this is desperate clap trap to me. I own an R and to be honest I really like it, it's a nice car but it is not the best thing since sliced bread and if you wish to remain legal on any b road, you'll not escape 2nd gear and you'll certainly get nowhere near top of third unless you're happy to flirt with going to jail. In my mind an R needs a higher revving engine, with better noise, more power and in general needs more feel, from the steering and chassis to be able to begin to approach a GT3. In summary, an R feels like what it is. A half hearted effort from an exceptional car manufacturer, which means that it is in actual fact a very good car but one that has been deliberately restrained and you feel that when you drive it. Whereas every GT3, I have driven feels like it's the absolute best effort from an exceptional car manufacturer and you feel that difference when you drive it too.

bravo...... agree totally. i have a 7.2 RS and had a CR and a spyder. BTW, gear ratios of CR and spyder are perfectly fine on track and so is the regular GT3. I mean porsches are made for track use right?

How about organising a race to settle it once and for all. Just as a wildcard i wager that in my heavily modified 987 cayman s which costs less than half your ego wagons i can blow you all into the weeds.

:-) "For the record, the pre-991 GT3 is a far superior car to the Cayman R for anybody who actually likes to drive." er they are the same in fact the R is harder to master and drive on the limit. "The GT3 sounds a lot better," ok I'll give you that, but only just, a lot of people do add extra pipes to the GT3, the R sounds pretty good. "has way more feel," Wrong imo the GT3 has less feel, there is less weight over the front axel and the front end has never been great, the only way porsche can fix this was to add rear wheel steer to the 991 "is a lot quicker in pretty much every guise" I should hope so it has 100bhp more, but that imo makes it look a bit slow when you can ni on keep up with on in a R with 100bhp less and of course corner faster and brake later. The R prob quicker than a MK1 on track, and can match the MK2, even a 981 boxster can lap the same as a mk2 GT3 now. "and feels way more special" not really, that is just a personal thought, looks the b ks yes, does not feel more special. "Chasing down the redline in a GT3 is simply a wonderful experience" yes true if you can find some where to do it, which means on track really. "This doesn't mean that the CR is an utter piece of crap either - it's a perfectly good road car," it's a great road car if you want a sports car and like driving. imo "handles well enough" you mean it handles better than a GT3, it's a better lay out, is more responsive, steer better, etc etc every thing a mid engine layout brings. "but it is not as good as a GT3 in any sense." not as good in what sense, not as good a track car true, but a better road car. but not a good status car either to be with the in gang ! "You've probably read some utter drivel about gear ratios etc and how the R is so much better as a road car because it has better gear ratios than a GT3 - this is desperate clap trap to me." this is pretty much on the nose for me and a hugh issue the GT3 has as a road car, it not only the ratios, it's the peak toqrue, so you really have to be >6k revs to enjoy a GT3 to the max (why did Porsche put a Short ratio box in the GT3 4.0 even with 500bhp and more torque) because it just works better. peak torque in the R is 4750rpm so you don't have to red line it to get the max from the R, you can drop it in at 4750rpmand be on it again. THe GT3 you do have to red line to drop it back into the next gear at 6k "I own an R and to be honest I really like it, it's a nice car but it is not the best thing since sliced bread and if you wish to remain legal on any b road, you'll not escape 2nd gear and you'll certainly get nowhere near top of third unless you're happy to flirt with going to jail." what's a better sports road car at any where near the same price ? have you changed the camber on your car and pads, tyres etc those 3 things along bring the car alive. In my mind an R needs a higher revving engine, with better noise, more power and in general needs more feel, from the steering and chassis to be able to begin to approach a GT3 imo it don't, high reving engines are a pain in the arse on UK roads. better noise can be fixed with a manifold, this will also give you the a power boost you want. (but you state that the R is already to fast !! ) As for feel it has more feel than a GT3, get your geo setup, and a mid engine platform is more responsive to input, so imo you don't know what you are talking about now ! "In summary, an R feels like what it is. A half hearted effort from an exceptional car manufacturer" I disagree, yes the bhp was pinned at 330, but the rest of the car is amazing as a road car, it was never a track car or a race car for the road. "which means that it is in actual fact a very good car but one that has been deliberately restrained and you feel that when you drive it." I don't feel that way at all, you already said you can easy do over a ton very fast, some say even the 2.7 is too much for the road, a R is about perfect to thrash about with. "Whereas every GT3, I have driven feels like it's the absolute best effort from an exceptional car manufacturer and you feel that difference when you drive it too." sell your R and buy a GT3 then !!! best effort is a poor effort then, PASM on a "race car for the road" stupid holed disks made of cheese and a front end which has never worked that well. It's taken tech to make a GT3 silly fast and now the 991 can have the traction, but now also has the turn in. The GT4 will prob lap quicker than any past GT3 even with 375bhp, the 991 has moved the game on so much with rear wheel steer, The GT4 has a space now. To end the R and Spyder DON't make good track cars unless you mod them, the GT3 makes a far better track car, are Porsche made for track, NO they are road cars through and though, but yes you can track them but even on the GT3 you have to set them up and most owners mod them. what does annoy me is Spyder and R owners who never change a thing, run s tty oem safe geo and insist on N spec tyres, grow some balls make the R and SPyder what it can be. what's more in Spyder guise, you can do all that with the roof off, which brings in another thrill. a few nice Spyder laps, that looks a s t time and sounds crap lol NOT http://youtu.be/0vNeLjB9IXA?list=UUL-Rm-7D8xHVNA8A... Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 22 November 10:08

OP, I agree totally. The Cayman R is a great car, the GT3 is a great car. Some people prefer the way the R drives and some people prefer the way the GT3 drives. Then you get some people that just want to argue they are right and EVERYONE ELSE is wrong.

I'll add my experience from ownership .... 996 GT3 Clubsport - fantastic car 997 GT3 Clubsport -fantastic car Cayman R - fantastic car . Not quite GT3 level but surprised me how good for the money ( but not a GT3 ) 991 GT3 Clubsport - I'll tell you in 3 hrs :-) I'd quite happily have any / all of them in the garage .

I also think the GT3 is a great car, no one can knock having that engine. I would also love one in my garage with a few mods ;-) was thinking a 997.2 with 3 ways and short final drive but decided to plump for a GT4. The GT3 also makes the better track car out the box, looks cooler, holds money better, has more status etc etc people think I am anti GT3 which is just not true. What I don't like is the GT3 gang on here who say black is white and if challenged you get personal abuse. Both cars can be bettered, both have area they excel in, both are the right car to own if you know what you want the car for.

997 GT3 better than a cayman in every single way. 996 GT3 better than 997 GT3. 993RS & 964RS better still. Whats better than a 93/64RS ? I'm not certain and have yet to drive it. One thing's for sure it wont be anything modern and appreciably quicker. Soon as you have a car that is more 'good' and faster than 93/64RS the fun factor starts to drain away. It also probably won't be anything mid or front engined either. It could be older, maybe a 3.2 CS but going older that the 64/93 sweetspot brings other issues into play.

jackal said: 997 GT3 better than a cayman in every single way. 996 GT3 better than 997 GT3. 993RS & 964RS better still. Whats better than a 93/64RS ? I'm not certain and have yet to drive it. One thing's for sure it wont be anything modern and appreciably quicker. Soon as you have a car that is more 'good' and faster than 93/64RS the fun factor starts to drain away. It also probably won't be anything mid or front engined either. It could be older, maybe a 3.2 CS but going older that the 64/93 sweetspot brings other issues into play. lets take the 964 RS, it's weight is about the same as a R and is about the same size. I think the R is the 964RS of the future, a slow burner now like the RS was then will be very sort after. as for your GT3 "better than a Cayman in every single way" that's when some peoples blinkers are firmly on. "996 GT3 better than 997 GT3" that will split opinion :-)

I'm surprised at the well-known keyboard warriors on this thread. You must have worked out "better" just means self justifying claptrap by now. Go and spend time with your families and friends, or visit an ENT consultant and get your nasally whining voice fixed. Just off out in the cgt

I'm busy polishing my space shuttle

ArcticGT3 said: I'm busy polishing my space shuttle Not as good as a Saturn V though. Lacks feel and not as resolved

AndrewD said: ArcticGT3 said: I'm busy polishing my space shuttle Not as good as a Saturn V though. Lacks feel and not as resolved But Saturn V only went one way... unlike the shuttle and a GT3

AndrewD said: Not as good as a Saturn V though. Lacks feel and not as resolved Nonsense, the Gen 2 Saturn 5 6 GT2 experience is dominated by the massive thrust of the engine, it could never be considered as having a sybiotic relationship with its chassis. The Gen 1 6 shuttle is a far sweeter drive. I frequently drive my Shuttle flat out, in fact many is the time I've left home at 100% throttle for the first 3 minutes despite the manual saying that I should throttle back to 65% to ensure the vehicle doesn't break up as I leave the earth's atmosphere. Added to which production of the shuttle in all its iterations has only recently ceased, and whilst getting parts out of NASA for them can prove troublesome, it's nothing like trying to get parts for a vehicle that NASA stopped producing nearly 40 years ago. I'm sorry, but buying stuff off ebay or the PH classifieds for a 40 year old highly specialised vehicle like the Saturn 5 GT2 isn't an option for me. I tried the Saturn 5 6 GT2 , it's good, but all that landing in the sea nonsense was a complete PITA. At least with the Shuttle I can land on the M5 late at night and be home within ten minutes. I like the Gen 2 7 shuttle a lot, but find the PASM (Powered Ascent Shock Management) overly intrusive. If someone would design a passive system that enabled me to play with orbital exit speeds, I'd probably trade my Gen 1 in. The Shuttle R is a very well resolved vehicle, but for me the mid engine design makes it far too stable, put bluntly I don't drive at 17,800 mph and expect the vehicle to be stable. The very nature of the Gen 1 6 Shuttle with it's rear engine design makes it a far edgier drive at the limit (and below it). Sure all the Shuttle 6 versions have front ends that "understeer", but that's a very intrinsic part of their appeal. You can either speak to the various independent specialist NASA service agents and get them to alter the front vector geometry, OR you can learn to drive the vehicle in such a way as to nullify the understeer. Or as I've done in the past, you can have modifications carried out to the vehicle to make it more composed irrespective of atmospheric conditions (the fitment of Ohlins) Overt Handling Linear Improvement Nicely Sorted) Leaving the earth's atmosphere in a Saturn 5 is a piece of piss, it's a sledgehammer. Leaving the earth's atmosphere in the Shuttle R with its stable platform is equally easy (despite it's wheezy characterless engines) In a Shuttle 6, with it's lesser power (compared to the Saturn 5 GT2 type 6) and inherently unbalanced platform, you have to work at the process, and that for me (and many others I suspect) is the attraction of the Shuttle 6. Here's the launch of my Shuttle 6 a few weeks ago : (probably best to get a glass or can of something and make yourself comfortable) I spent a fortune on GoPros to get this footage, I hope you enjoy and appreciate it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFwqZ4qAUkE

AndrewD said: I'm surprised at the well-known keyboard warriors on this thread. You must have worked out "better" just means self justifying claptrap by now. It's true ... I know a bloke who cancelled his Speciale order in a pram/toy moment cos the dealer didnt lick his b^m enough. Now he goes round saying his 991 GT3 is better.

[quote=jackal]997 GT3 better than a cayman in every single way. 996 GT3 better than 997 GT3. 993RS & 964RS better still. Solely opinion. Ones mans meat another poison but I respect your views

GT3cs said: I'll add my experience from ownership .... 996 GT3 Clubsport - fantastic car 997 GT3 Clubsport -fantastic car Cayman R - fantastic car . Not quite GT3 level but surprised me how good for the money ( but not a GT3 ) 991 GT3 Clubsport - I'll tell you in 3 hrs :-) I'd quite happily have any / all of them in the garage . Dying to know your first thoughts on the new car mate. Pics and spec ASAP So in this thread we are talking about the current cayman R vs GT3's BUT how about GT4 VS 997 GT3 CS...Who would swap into the GT4? Edited by Scooty100 on Saturday 22 November 15:08

What i can't understand in these unbelievably boring debates is what is the criteria for one car being 'better' than another. If it comes down to sheer pace which i guess is the point of a sports car then surely the GT3 is going to win hands down no question. So as this doesn't seem a given, presumably it comes down to this other stuff about feel, driver involvement, chassis balance, on limit handling, steering feel, dynamics blah blah etc etc which would appear to be very subjective especially as i wonder how many people on here really know what any of that means and can honestly say they can drive there car on the limit. I suspect many cayman r owners want to believe their car is as good as a GT3 as they have a little of the 'david and goliath' syndrome, whereas some GT3 owners have never really pushed there car but say there is nothing better because of its presence, the stickers, the wing, the noise and the whole myth surrounding the car. Anyway, i love my cayman for what it is and how good or bad it is in relation to anything else makes not one bit of difference. Cheerio.

PR36 said: What i can't understand in these unbelievably boring debates is what is the criteria for one car being 'better' than another. If it comes down to sheer pace which i guess is the point of a sports car then surely the GT3 is going to win hands down no question. So as this doesn't seem a given, presumably it comes down to this other stuff about feel, driver involvement, chassis balance, on limit handling, steering feel, dynamics blah blah etc etc which would appear to be very subjective especially as i wonder how many people on here really know what any of that means and can honestly say they can drive there car on the limit. I suspect many cayman r owners want to believe their car is as good as a GT3 as they have a little of the 'david and goliath' syndrome, whereas some GT3 owners have never really pushed there car but say there is nothing better because of its presence, the stickers, the wing, the noise and the whole myth surrounding the car. Anyway, i love my cayman for what it is and how good or bad it is in relation to anything else makes not one bit of difference. Cheerio. sorry did you mention previously that you wanted a race?

jackal said: Yeah totally ... completely relevant to my own persomal criteria which a) i havent stated and b) no one would care about in any case But hey, its the internet, nothing makes sense, who cares etc.. Indeed...So out the 997 GT3 for a GT4? Comon lets start another debate that no one cares about :-)

Scooty100]ackal said: 997 GT3 better than a cayman in every single way. 996 GT3 better than 997 GT3. 993RS & 964RS better still. Solely opinion. Ones mans meat another poison but I respect your views Yeah totally ... completely relevant to my own persomal criteria which a) i havent stated and b) no one would care about in any case But hey, its the internet, nothing makes sense, who cares etc.. The only salient point here is that as time go on, Demon is cultivating more and more hatred for the Cayman rather than anything else. ] Edited by jackal on Saturday 22 November 15:57

Anyone on here got both?

jackall said: The only salient point here is that as time go on, Demon is cultivating more and more hatred than anything else.

Mermaid said: Anyone on here got both? yeah plenty read back through

Lol

N Slippydiff said: AndrewD said: Not as good as a Saturn V though. Lacks feel and not as resolved Nonsense, the Gen 2 Saturn 5 6 GT2 experience is dominated by the massive thrust of the engine, it could never be considered as having a sybiotic relationship with its chassis. The Gen 1 6 shuttle is a far sweeter drive. I frequently drive my Shuttle flat out, in fact many is the time I've left home at 100% throttle for the first 3 minutes despite the manual saying that I should throttle back to 65% to ensure the vehicle doesn't break up as I leave the earth's atmosphere. Added to which production of the shuttle in all its iterations has only recently ceased, and whilst getting parts out of NASA for them can prove troublesome, it's nothing like trying to get parts for a vehicle that NASA stopped producing nearly 40 years ago. I'm sorry, but buying stuff off ebay or the PH classifieds for a 40 year old highly specialised vehicle like the Saturn 5 GT2 isn't an option for me. I tried the Saturn 5 6 GT2 , it's good, but all that landing in the sea nonsense was a complete PITA. At least with the Shuttle I can land on the M5 late at night and be home within ten minutes. I like the Gen 2 7 shuttle a lot, but find the PASM (Powered Ascent Shock Management) overly intrusive. If someone would design a passive system that enabled me to play with orbital exit speeds, I'd probably trade my Gen 1 in. The Shuttle R is a very well resolved vehicle, but for me the mid engine design makes it far too stable, put bluntly I don't drive at 17,800 mph and expect the vehicle to be stable. The very nature of the Gen 1 6 Shuttle with it's rear engine design makes it a far edgier drive at the limit (and below it). Sure all the Shuttle 6 versions have front ends that "understeer", but that's a very intrinsic part of their appeal. You can either speak to the various independent specialist NASA service agents and get them to alter the front vector geometry, OR you can learn to drive the vehicle in such a way as to nullify the understeer. Or as I've done in the past, you can have modifications carried out to the vehicle to make it more composed irrespective of atmospheric conditions (the fitment of Ohlins) Overt Handling Linear Improvement Nicely Sorted) Leaving the earth's atmosphere in a Saturn 5 is a piece of piss, it's a sledgehammer. Leaving the earth's atmosphere in the Shuttle R with its stable platform is equally easy (despite it's wheezy characterless engines) In a Shuttle 6, with it's lesser power (compared to the Saturn 5 GT2 type 6) and inherently unbalanced platform, you have to work at the process, and that for me (and many others I suspect) is the attraction of the Shuttle 6. Here's the launch of my Shuttle 6 a few weeks ago : (probably best to get a glass or can of something and make yourself comfortable) I spent a fortune on GoPros to get this footage, I hope you enjoy and appreciate it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFwqZ4qAUkE

Scooty100 said: Indeed...So out the 997 GT3 for a GT4? Comon lets start another debate that no one cares about :-) For me . Your only here once so try as many as you you can . I've only had the 991 GT3 for 6 hrs . It feels like its going to be a cracker ( as much as you can tell with a 3000rpm run in limit ) but I still think I'll be moving it on next year for a GT4 or if I'm really lucky a 991RS . Not because there'll be anything wrong with it , there's just so much else to try .

Mermaid said: Anyone on here got both? I have a 2012 Cayman R PDK and a 996 GT3RS which I have owned since new. Both great cars. The following does not define which is the better or quicker car in all circumstances but the following Sprint results from Debden in September 2014 are interesting; It was the same result in May. Bill McKenna runs a highly modified 996GT3 and he is a multiple sprint championship winner. The Cayman R beat both Bill in his 996 GT3 and Brian Winstone in his GT3RS. My Cayman R is completely standard running on Kumho V70's. The two Cayman R times highlighted were both for my car - I shared it with a mate. Now the circuit may suit the Cayman and the drivers may have had off days etc etc. But on that day in those circumstances, the Cayman R was quicker than two GT3's. As I have said, I own a GT3RS as well and I think they are both absolutely fantastic but completely different types of cars.

Mr D. I didn't say that I thought that the CR was too fast. I merely pointed out that the top end of 3rd gear was way to over the legal speed limit. These are 2 different things! The reason I don't have a GT3 are somewhat more complicated. But here goes: 1. I like owning cars from new and you can't get a new GT3 2. I suspect that the cost of running one is far higher than the CR 3. My mrs won't get why I bought a car with 2 seats that looks like the family friendly car we used to have that has 4 seats 4. I've driven a 997 GT3RS 4.0 - this is the car that I really want but I don't have the spare £350k to buy one 5. The cost to swap to a GT3 is very high and as I said the CR is a very good car, just no GT3 6. I do like the CR, it feels light and has a great spec. It's also quite a small car, which is good for the roads around here. You seem to suggest that the CR needs to be modded to get the best from it. I don't diasagree, if I was to keep it, then I'd get quite a lot more stuff done to it but out of the box, a GT3 is the better car IMHO. I'm on the list for a GT4. I'm hoping Porsche allow that car to realise the full potential of the chassis. The signs are good as the GTS cayman is a great car (no GT3) but very similar to the R in terms of drive with better engine noise and it can be spec'd to be like an R (other than lightweight doors obviously). Also I have had the geo done on my car. It still wasn't that great, it's actually better now that it went into a tyre fitters, who just did a std geo on it (not OEM). The main issue for me is that the CR needs to be ragged senseless to feel fun., so it is great on track days (although still not as good as a GT3). Whereas a GT3 feels great even at 5mph. Edited by J-P on Saturday 22 November 17:38 Edited by J-P on Saturday 22 November 17:53

GT3cs said: For me . Your only here once so try as many as you you can . I've only had the 991 GT3 for 6 hrs . It feels like its going to be a cracker ( as much as you can tell with a 3000rpm run in limit ) but I still think I'll be moving it on next year for a GT4 or if I'm really lucky a 991RS . Not because there'll be anything wrong with it , there's just so much else to try . Makes lots of sense to me m8 pics of new car? So you have your name down for the GT4 as well? Im still loving the GT3 you sold me so may be a tough decision for me

jackal said: AndrewD said: I'm surprised at the well-known keyboard warriors on this thread. You must have worked out "better" just means self justifying claptrap by now. It's true ... I know a bloke who cancelled his Speciale order in a pram/toy moment cos the dealer didnt lick his b^m enough. Now he goes round saying his 991 GT3 is better. Lol, selective twaddle as always Jackie, too much glue sniffing I assume

" I merely pointed out that the top end of 3rd gear was way to over the legal speed limit" "The main issue for me is that the CR needs to be ragged senseless to feel fun" I don't get it, the GT3 is even faster in 3rd and needs to be ragged even more ! Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 22 November 18:07

Mermaid said: Anyone on here got both? me ;-)

mrdemon said: I don't get it the GT3 we are all fully aware by now

I think you could make an argument that the a Cayman R is better than a GT3. But you could make the same argument that a two grand MX5 is better than both. The limitation with the GT3 is that it is so capable that it is too fast for the road. Even on balls-out blasts, you are scratching the surface of the what the car is capable of and - frankly - kidding yourself if you think you are really pushing. As a result, can't wait to get the GT3 on track where i know it will come into it's own! Oh, and away from the driving the experience, the GT3 looks frigging awesome and the Cayman R looks like a bar of soap...

hondansx said: I think you could make an argument that the a Cayman R is better than a GT3. But you could make the same argument that a two grand MX5 is better than both. The limitation with the GT3 is that it is so capable that it is too fast for the road. Even on balls-out blasts, you are scratching the surface of the what the car is capable of and - frankly - kidding yourself if you think you are really pushing. As a result, can't wait to get the GT3 on track where i know it will come into it's own! Oh, and away from the driving the experience, the GT3 looks frigging awesome and the Cayman R looks like a bar of soap... Except you don't need to drive the GT3 at ten tenths to feel how special it is. It engages right from the off.

mrdemon said: " I merely pointed out that the top end of 3rd gear was way to over the legal speed limit" "The main issue for me is that the CR needs to be ragged senseless to feel fun" I don't get it, the GT3 is even faster in 3rd and needs to be ragged even more ! Edited by mrdemon on Saturday 22 November 18:07 All I'm saying is the GT3 has more feel at low speed than the CR, hell the GTS has more feel than the CR at low speed. You need to be going much faster in the CR to get the same level of feel. It's not specifically about going fast. Edited by J-P on Saturday 22 November 23:16

Alpinestars said: hondansx said: I think you could make an argument that the a Cayman R is better than a GT3. But you could make the same argument that a two grand MX5 is better than both. The limitation with the GT3 is that it is so capable that it is too fast for the road. Even on balls-out blasts, you are scratching the surface of the what the car is capable of and - frankly - kidding yourself if you think you are really pushing. As a result, can't wait to get the GT3 on track where i know it will come into it's own! Oh, and away from the driving the experience, the GT3 looks frigging awesome and the Cayman R looks like a bar of soap... Except you don't need to drive the GT3 at ten tenths to feel how special it is. It engages right from the off. Yes that's my point.

mrdemon said: me ;-) No you've owned both, you sold the GT3 remember.

pete a said: mrdemon said: me ;-) No you've owned both, you sold the GT3 remember. Don't beat yourself up MrD, we've all moved something on at the bottom of the market at some point. ............ I had to give away a half drunk bottle of Oasis last week, nobody wanted it. Probably not quite the same though.

London GT3 said: I have a 2012 Cayman R PDK and a 996 GT3RS which I have owned since new. Both great cars. The following does not define which is the better or quicker car in all circumstances but the following Sprint results from Debden in September 2014 are interesting; It was the same result in May. Bill McKenna runs a highly modified 996GT3 and he is a multiple sprint championship winner. The Cayman R beat both Bill in his 996 GT3 and Brian Winstone in his GT3RS. My Cayman R is completely standard running on Kumho V70's. The two Cayman R times highlighted were both for my car - I shared it with a mate. Now the circuit may suit the Cayman and the drivers may have had off days etc etc. But on that day in those circumstances, the Cayman R was quicker than two GT3's. As I have said, I own a GT3RS as well and I think they are both absolutely fantastic but completely different types of cars. Well done Old Boy!

hondansx said: Oh, and away from the driving the experience, the GT3 looks frigging awesome and the Cayman R looks like a bar of soap... Totally subjective I know, but this^^ a lot. I could never own a 987 Cayman, the back just looks shocking to my eye, especially the lights.

Alpinestars said: Except you don't need to drive the GT3 at ten tenths to feel how special it is. It engages right from the off. This is true and it really messes with my head when combined with the fact that I fall into both the "GT3 is somewhat pointless on the road" and the "gearing is too long for the road" camps as well 1) my 7.1 feels incredibly special even pootling, it just feels like a giant light go kart when you're sat in those bucket seats and the way it's very firm yet never crashes over the road is a thing of wonder to me. 2) stood still it looks awesome, far more special than a regular 997 3) peddling it quickly on the road is a joy as it seems to telegraph all the info to you and feels quite forgiving when it does let go like it was doing in the wet on a Wales trip this weekend - little shimmies at the rear coming out of fast corners were exciting rather than scary, and coming out of every junction sideways never gets old I had a mate in a 12C and another in a 360 who couldn't get anywhere near the same pace with the same confidence . ....yet.... 4) I hate that the gearing is so long, 100mph or so in 3rd is just bonkers for a road car, I want to be able to rev out in at least 3 gears without losing my licence 5) notwithstanding (3), you have to be doing some serious speed to feel like you're scratching the surface of what it can do. Having had it on track, you realise just how far the limits of the car are away from road driving that has any semblance of legality/safety and it deflates you slightly.

Mario149 said: This is true and it really messes with my head when combined with the fact that I fall into both the "GT3 is somewhat pointless on the road" and the "gearing is too long for the road" camps as well 1) my 7.1 feels incredibly special even pootling, it just feels like a giant light go kart when you're sat in those bucket seats and the way it's very firm yet never crashes over the road is a thing of wonder to me. 2) stood still it looks awesome, far more special than a regular 997 3) peddling it quickly on the road is a joy as it seems to telegraph all the info to you and feels quite forgiving when it does let go like it was doing in the wet on a Wales trip this weekend - little shimmies at the rear coming out of fast corners were exciting rather than scary, and coming out of every junction sideways never gets old I had a mate in a 12C and another in a 360 who couldn't get anywhere near the same pace with the same confidence . ....yet.... 4) I hate that the gearing is so long, 100mph or so in 3rd is just bonkers for a road car, I want to be able to rev out in at least 3 gears without losing my licence 5) notwithstanding (3), you have to be doing some serious speed to feel like you're scratching the surface of what it can do. Having had it on track, you realise just how far the limits of the car are away from road driving that has any semblance of legality/safety and it deflates you slightly. Not sure that is specifically a GT3 thing. It's the same for all higher end sports/super cars. I peaked out on my road limit driving in a Clio 16v...after that almost everything was getting too fast. So slower cars are potentially better on the road. The great thing about GT3s when compares to other high end brands you can experience their limits on track more often and more reliably. I've never seen the same Ferrari on track twice....I've not seen many Ferrari at all on track actually!