Forum Expansion - Page 4 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Personally, I'm against. I just can't be bothered to start looking in 3 different forums. Plus, all the 996 boys (& girls) will be posting to Water Cooled but all other 911 drivers will be in Air Cooled. IMHO, of course.

Ted, I really think the forum is excellent as it is . It really seems to work well and seems very friendly without too much apparent need from moderation. The thing with splitting the forums up with air / water etc... is you get all this tedious air is better than water rubbish like you get on the rennlist forum. Myself & several others have owned air cooled now running water cooled,so we are "experienced " enthusiasts despite having moved to the dark side. It is good to get comparisons from other posters of recent experiences without any alienation,or running to find any specific thread topics. What are the advantages of the proposed changes that I am missing ?

At the moment, simply seeing the forum type of one's predisposition suffices insofar as an incentive to have a butchers is concerned. You can usually tell from the first posting/response what the flavour of a particular thread will be and whether it's of interest... For me, I'm as attracted to the TVR, Ferrari & Co and Jap Crap forae as Pork; some folk, I suppose, are and will only be interested in a particular brand or model. Then again, such subdivisions might form a neat frame of ref for actual models but I reckon it might be tricky to know where to stop!

I think it works fine as it is at the present time. Steve

I'm not fussed either way really, but if you do split it I would suggest more of a model-based split: > General > 911 > 924/944/968 > Boxster > Other

On reflection...maybe it does need a minor change... open a new sction just for the Cayenne & Porsche tractors to keep it away from the sports cars.

Ted, I like it as it is, all aspects of Pork under one forum.

I like it how it is. The advantage being say you have a new porker owner with a 944 or an SC etc, well lots of the owners of later pork have owned earlier cars on their way up the porker ladder so can help out with advice. However if you seperate the forum I doubt many 996 owners will trawl through the 944 section.

I agree that one of the best things about the forum is all views get represented in one place, promoting some good discussion. Air v Water debate is not too excessive and when it does occur is good-natured. All IMHO!

..incidentally, anyone got any quarter mile times for the tractors then?

i'd go for seperate sections, maybe by year, upto 82 82-89 89-93 etc

This one gets my vote

I think it's great as it is, but if you are keen on splitting it i'd say go with the model family split rather than dividing water and air. General 911 924/944/968 Boxster Others Agree with previous posts, that sounds good to me.

I think this is probably ideal if Ted could cope with that many forums. The '3 forum' idea was simply to keep things manageable, yet allow measured expansion. I have been against splitting the forum until now, but the water cooled/air cooled forums should really be seen as an addition to the main Porsche forum - the same level of banter should still take place there, but technical questions re specific models could be placed on a more specific forum. ie it is hoped that everyone would still log on to the main forum like they do now, but also occasionally check 'their' model forum for topics that may be specifically relevant or interesting. The only danger with too many forums would be lack of traffic - this would be averted with 'watercooled/aircooled' yet I do acknowledge that it is a bit of a half way house.

I think this is probably ideal if Ted could cope with that many forums. The '3 forum' idea was simply to keep things manageable, yet allow measured expansion. I have been against splitting the forum until now, but the water cooled/air cooled forums should really be seen as an addition to the main Porsche forum - the same level of banter should still take place there, but technical questions re specific models could be placed on a more specific forum. ie it is hoped that everyone would still log on to the main forum like they do now, but also occasionally check 'their' model forum for topics that may be specifically relevant or interesting. The only danger with too many forums would be lack of traffic - this would be averted with 'watercooled/aircooled' yet I do acknowledge that it is a bit of a half way house.

Seconded. Not sure if the owner of a 1972 2.4T will feel at home with 996TT though: maybe it would be even better to create several forums for all types of 911.

Please don't split up the forum! I for one would not be keen to keep hopping from one list to another, and I quite enjoy reading about 944s, 968s, air cooled, water cooled etc all in one place. (Except for the Cayenne, of course, which is just the b*stard child of a Hyundai Sante Fe and a warthog).

We don't seem to get the large number of posts per day on the Porsche forum that would require a split into separate forums. About 20 posts per day is normal to high ? Would this be categorising for the sake of it ? I for one don't care if my comments/queries are read by 944 owners, nor about the air/water cooled debate (mainly an excuse for banter I think ?)

So those of us who don't really care about a change,,if we just post on general Porsche will this get moved around the different forum sections ??

The point is, if you don't care about specific forums, keep chatting in the main Porsche one. This change is intended to add to the traffic, ie give people an extra, more specific forum to log into ('what should I look out for on a 3.2 carrera', 'more power out of my 944' etc.) which a general Porsche fanbase will be less interested in or less able to deal with... This forum shouldn't change in practice - there should just be another couple of forums for people to explore as well. Have a look at the Lotus section if you want to see how it can work. We have enough traffic here to justify a couple of model forums as well as a marque one. I myeslf post about 20 posts a day on here FFS

I'm against a split. If it had always been split the way you describe I've got to admit I would never have bothered looking in the 944/968 section (no offence to those that own them!). I would then have missed out on some interesting stuff e.g. ninemeisters supercharging updates which have now started to get me genuinely interested in those cars. If it ain't broke don't fix it! Chris

It confused the hell out of me just moving it!! I already wrote a post askign where the Porsche forum is, only for someone to reply "about 2 inches above where it was"!!!

I like it just the way it is, although it would be great if you had to put in a car header (e.g 996, Turbo, Boxter etc.)when you posted & then it would be even better if you could then search by header (e.g. find all 996 Turbo posts) if you wanted to. But officially splitting all cars would create more work looking around each section & this would only work if you had vast numbers of posts, like the American sites !

I think the point is not to dilute it as much as something like rennlist, but to increase its stature. There is now enough traffic here, so wouldn't expansion be a logical progression? Why should the Lotus forum have three forums, and the TVR boys have loads? When one of the now most popular sections of the site still only has one? It ain't broken at the moment, but if Porsche had that mentality we'd still be driving around in 3.2s which were lovely 911s. Instead they kept developing and improving so that now we have the GT3 Clubsport... evolution in simple terms. If you like the forum the way it is, it will always be here for you. I'm not sure I fully understand the negative attitude to extra Porsche forums, as traffic won't stop dead on the main forum and you can still browse the other forums if you want to. Maybe this is why 3 Porsche forums would work better than 5 or 6. Still, I am happy for Ted to keep things how they are if everyone prefers it this way, but it would be nice to give the forum a chance to grow

I think a split is a logical evolution. How about: 1) General Porsche stuff and Gossip 2) Boxster (should be above 911) 3) 911 4) 928 5) All the other cheap ones

You cheeky beggar. At least my Porsche wasn't made in Finland ! This is exactly the kind of model specific banter we'd all miss

I for one didn't intend my feedback to be negative or luddite as you suggest, but rather as good-natured feedback as to why I like it and come here in preference to other boards. Hope they were taken in that spirit! For what it's worth, I would take the converse view to yourself i.e. that splitting the forum would be a necessary evil of it having grown uncontrollably rather than a positive step to promote growth, and as such should be deferred until absolutely unavoidable. I love TVR's but quite frankly don't have the time to follow all the separate forums (fora?) so probably miss out on some good stuff. All IMHO of course! Chris

I kindof like it the way it is at the moment. I much prefer only having to look at one forum rather than 3. I was confused enough when i found that Porsche was under its own section now!

Keep it as one for general chat, but what about model-specific for "technical" questions and answers?

Hi Chris Wasn't having a go at you in particular - or anyone else for that matter I just thought the feedback would be a little bit more positive to expanding the forum, rather than a general 'keep it as it is' vibe. I agree that it is in many senses a necessary evil, but will in the long term lead to a larger, more authoratitive Porsche representation on PH. At the moment we are seen as being much smaller than Rennlist, less specialist than Titanic and less official than the PCGB forums. However, we are twice as friendly as any of them, and look how blatchat.com (Caterham Seven forums) has grown to wonderful multi-forum diversity. Yeah, some areas of blatchat are more busy than others, but it has grown nicely since the days of a simple email list (which I was a member of ages ago). Anyway, all feedback is helpful, and if the general consensus (Ted, voting form???) supports a single forum then so will I, as I have done for the last year or so. Cheers Domster

This could be the way forward - well done James! How about: -General Porsche Stuff -Technically Speaking And then maybe: - Derestrictor's Memorable Drives - Mel's Lightweight Hardcore Hangout - Thom's 911 Depreciation Society - Iguana's 944 For Sale Forum etc

Just another idea to throw in the melting pot: we could go for a split based on engine location: > General > Rear-engine > Mid-engine > Front-engine

Can I have: General Technical Performance This way I would not have to think about option packs on tractors ever again.

Thanks, that's useful feedback guys. I think it deserved promotion to it's own section but perhaps it's not the right time to split it yet. I think there will come a time (hopefully) when it will become useful. At the moment the community feel in this section is strong and I'll think carefully before jeopardising that.

I'd rather it wasn't split up but if it has to be then can the 924s be kept out of the 968 forum please? That said, there should certainly be a section where badgers are safe and Dom isn't allowed access surely?

I like the community feel of the single Porsche forum, though I can see that expanding it would fit in well with the other sections of the Gassing station. It doesn't matter too much anyway, as I always click on 'Whats New' to show all the new posts from all the forums. Quite like the idea of General/Front/Mid/Rear engine - simple but effective

I would prefer the status quo for now. If that counts at all. Being as I'm a TVR owner an' all...

Thanks, Scottster....I'll be wiping the Jameson's out of my keyboard for weeks... BTW: How are you doing? Haven't seen you/dom/iguana since BTaP. Must sort out some Porsche enthusaiasts something before too long. Going to any PCGB trackdays?

Hi Don, We'll (well, Dom and I) will be going to the Wycombe meet this Sunday - Not sure how close you are but weather forecast looks like it'll be a lovely day for a drive, why not join us if you weren't already? Haven't been on here much or to any events for ages for which I must apologise. We moved (not far) in December and it's been manic since then with no spare time ever! On a brighter note, Dom moved a few weeks back so the English hedgerow may be safe for a couple of months too while the missus has him plumbing washing machines and pruning her bushes Cheers Dave

Keep it as it is Dom. I go with Chris N. On this. Just look at the PCGB forums if u want to be confused.......Heritage, 3.2, Boxster, Modern, 993, 964..... I tend to veiw these forums as a drink down the pub with me mates. I don't have to keep going into separate rooms at the pub for another conversation!! Melv

Glad to hear that her bush is pruned......... Melv

As a reader more than writer I'd go with the Ninemiester, forget the model stereotypes do it by topic. At any rate not more than three sections please.

OK Ted, leave it as it is. Just remind everyone please that this is Pistonheads aimed at like-minded peeps with performance sports cars interested in going faster.

Having thought about this, I think it would be a positively good thing to subdivide into model (rather than series) groups and retain a general patch. This is logical because oi reckonz at the moment, you never know quite what intensity of spicey eastern nosh is being served up...one may prefer the relative mildness and reserve of an admittedly effective Carrera 2 or 4 Madras, whilst the next PHer might prefer the more intense rush of a scphincter twitching Turbo Vindaloo run and ultimately, for the chap who won't break sweat unless charged with the enormity of two dozen popadums and a vat of something with phal attatched, there is (was ) always the Domster opzionale minimalisto, i.e. no Porsche at all because that's the ultimate in weight loss! So yes, I think Ted & Co. should expand a bit.

We'll need to do this at some point, even if it's not now. I'd be interested to know how to categorise things when we do. I think the cross fertilisation is important which is why a split by model would be counterproductive and just create artificial divisions and just become like every other Porsche forum out there on the net Would it be more interesting to do something like - General Porsche Chat - Engine/Suspension/Brakes Stuff ?

Hmmm. I've mixed feelings on this point. First, I sense that most PHers are not overly parochial, despite there being certain, obvious (might one say 'blind') allegiances? At the same time, it would be dull if model owners stuck more to their specific variety of pork. Second, doesn't it seem glaringly inconsistent when you look at the TVR listings? Third and related, the PCGB registers might offer the answer, purely ito their model sectioning. Fourth, and contrarily, you could always take the view that the thread title alone is sufficient to elicit a look or not...are not subdivisions merely artificial guide rails that actually aren't needed? Trickier than Tricky McTrick, winner of last year's...

OK, I have had a day of contemplation, pruning the wife's bush, away from the board. I have gone a little bit off the 'technical' subforum idea as Ted already has a general Technical section on the Gassing Station. However, I do like 9Ms: -General Porsche Stuff -Technical -Performance I think that one could be the winner, but if we eventually went down the route of model groups, how about: - General Porsche Stuff - Boxster and 996 - Air cooled - Front engined - Lightweight/GT/Turbo This is my attempt to get the 'mindsets' grouped together. The Boxster and 996 guys like modern Porsches and their cars share some major bits and technology; the air cooled 911 posse all share double jointed ankles from floor hinged pedals; the front engined group includes 924/944/968/928 (and Cayenne that's got to go somewhere!) and the nutter bastard hardcore have their own performance oriented one. I am sure Ted will trial any change, ie if it doesn't work it will be reverted back to what it was before. However, I am positive it will be a success if we choose the subforums carefully, and retain the community feel whilst increasing overall forum traffic and stature. Cheers Domster

Mostly, I just like the fact that the current single forum has moved up the list so that I don't even have to expend any effort scrolling my mousewheel to get there However I am not optimistic that there would be any great benefit in breakdown by model or model group. Every forum needs a minimum traffic level to thrive, and I don't think there's enough traffic to support it. Besides, it's pretty easy to ignore topics that are about models you might not be interested in. Personally I find most of it interesting, but that doesn't mean I would continue to read it all, were it fragmented beyond General, Technical, Performance or similar.

I agree, for me it will only mean I'm less likely to look at posts in other forums despite finding many of them interesting, eg 9M's posts on his crusade for supercharger power on an 944 - nothing to do with my car but I enjoyed reading the posts. I enjoy the sense of community on this forum, and don't feel that would be best served by splitting.

I like it how it is, Dom & Ted. I fear at present it might only dilute the forum if we split it up. But, by all means experiment. I think how it is at the moment lets you dip into other threads, which perhaps in a more segregated environment you wouldn't perhaps look at. But a change is as good as a rest. Remember when Ted tried consolidating the Chimp/Griff party into one room? >> Edited by GregE240 on Friday 21st March 14:10

Dom, Why don't you and Ted give your suggestion a go - can't say I'm totally in favour but it would be no heartache to change back if it got too disjointed. Dave ps: Have to agree with Steve-p, having it on the first forum page makes it ½ a second quicker to access, fantastic!!

We are NOT having the Cayenne !

OK, I'm going to monitor the levels of traffic. It probably is too early to make the split yet. When there's more traffic than can be comfortably read in a page then I'll add some sub-sections.

See guys, PetrolTed always knows best. No split yet. WOO HOO! VS

Truth is, I have just wanted a 964RS forum all along, nothing else

That's a good idea. Then, you could continue eulogising and evangelising in there to your heart's content about 964RS's, regardless of what model the original poster asked about, without me having to read it anymore >> Edited by steve-p on Friday 21st March 17:03

Well, that was the idea

Sensible discussion, but i am happy that we are keeping things unchanged as it simply works so well... Dom, with your serious affection for 964 RS...why would you not want yours back....with a motec,full bilstein & corner weight balanced surely it would be more of a match for a 500bhp kit car in any real world situation ?

Simply because you can't get a 964RS down to 1000kgs as simply as you can build an Ultima up to it.... nor can you get the power of a 3.6 litre flat six porsche engine up to 500bhp as simply and cheaply as you can a 5.7 litre small block Chevy.... And have you seen the size of Ultima brakes? Believe me, if it wasn't for the Ultima, I would keep the 964RS forwever, or buy a 993RS/GT3 and keep that for a very long time indeed. I still rate them above any of the Ferraris as road going race cars. Okay, maybe not the F40, but certainly the current stable. The only reason I am so fiercely loyal to the 964RS is because it is the best Porsche I have ever driven by quite a margin, in terms of sheer ability. That said, I haven't driven anything newer than a 993, so I admit that I could be wrong and that the 996s may be the poodle's plums Rgds Domster

Yes, a 964 RS RS.

I have seen a few Ultima at VW and they certainly hold some interest....they just don't look too durable,ok sure the drivetrain is hardly working,just the body & general not quite finished aspect of some of the cars. I thought I saw an ultima with Toyota Celica brakes! ? I was more interested in comparing a slightly stripped 964 Rs say 1150kg with the 9M 360 bhp lump....Ok the lighter Ultima with 500bhp will clearly have an advantage in power/weight..But will you only be able to take advantage of this on certain occasions? I was just wondering if the narrow body RS would give a lot of fun more often than perhaps the Ultima-te fix. RS will also have the durability of it's seam welded shell.On an average circuit as in not specifically a power circuit will an Ultima truly humble an RS on "C" compound rubber? Particularly if conditions are not ideal. Is it something you want to get out of your system? I am not attempting to tell you what is best, as I don't know! ,it's just your glowing enthusiasm for the sublime RS that makes me really question where your motoring nirvana lies?. >> Edited by clubsport on Friday 21st March 19:36

Doms is a youngster you see CS He has to find out for himself where true auto nirvana lies! There is only one way to do that;buy/drive as many cars as you can afford. Steve

Second that! Melv

An RS squared ? Althought that would be written RS2 and as we know, the Audi RS2 was a lard arsed labrador conveyance with a few bolt on Porsche goodies. Eh, jeremy ?

But very good at towing a few lumps of 400bhp/litre carbon fibre to track days....

....Jez, and what a fine looking lump of carbon fibre it is too!! Have to grab the ride a bit quicker next time.

Regarding looking at multiple forums, the way the forums work that wouldn't be that obvious really. I'll be changing the way the forums show up at some point, allowing you to select your favourites and the messages in those forums are intermingled when you ask what's new (it'll just be a variation on the current 'hide forums' mechanism). Anyway, as I've said - it will happen at some point when things get even busier and it will be done in a manner that will not create artificial divisions or dead forums etc.

OK, few points in reponse, as it is an interesting point (well, for me ). 1) Ultima build quality. The standard of the components in the Ultima kit is very high, then it is just up to the constructor to put in the required build quality. Some vehicles may not be finished as well as others. It is true that there is some bare ali and plastic on display, but they don't leak and you can finish them to a Lamborghini or Ferrari level of hedonism if that is what you want. But their raison d'etre (sorry for the lack of accents Thom ) is to be a race-bred road car, so it has race bred fixtures, fittings and in some aspects, finish. 2) Celica brakes. These are on GTRClive's car I believe, and Clive has been stamping his mark of individuality on his GTR. Most come with extremely large AP four pots (as large on the back as the front calipers on a 1700kg Lotus Carlton, which was praised by Autocar for its stopping power), although GT car six pots will fit. Basically, you would have to have a GT1 Porsche or racing GT2 to equal the brakes of most Ultimas. 3) Driveability/usability. It is true that the 911 is a bit narrower, taller and has better visibility. However, I believe that the Ultima is just as agile, if not more so, and that driveability is high enough considering that it will probably spend half its life on track. It has a sense of occasion that even an RS can't replicate (sit in one to see what I mean, and the gull wing doors help). The big enemy of an Ultima would be traction above 500bhp, but the tyres are 335 wide and they generate a lot of grip. A GTR can do 0-100 in 6.3 secs, without traction control, which even a 9m tuned and lightened 964RS would be hard pushed to achieve. And as for a 0-150 time of about 12 seconds... It is true that you can only use all this power occasionally, but it will only be an occasional car with a track bias. I have my BMW for sensible motoring 4) Seam welded shells vs space frame of an Ultima. As an (ill!) educated guess, I think you will find that the Ultima chassis is stiffer than a seam welded RS chassis without a full roll cage. 5) RSs vs Ultimas on circuits. The driver will be the weak point here, I'm sure, as I would drive an Ultima slower than 9m drives an RS, for sure. However, on standard rubber, I have followed bluesatin's Ultima around roundabouts in my RS and when I was drifting he wasn't... there is a lot of grip at play. Sticky rubber will make a difference, but never understimate less weight and bigger tyres. Even then, the performance advantage of an Ultima is noticeable, even on short straights, so I would still expect an Ultima to be faster, even if conditions aren't ideal. 6) Me, RSs, and Ultimas. Well, without the Ultima getting into the equation, I would still have the Red Baron or be getting a newer or more extreme RS variant, like a 993RS or an RSR. I think the 964RS is the best sports car with a roof that I have yet to drive, IMHO. Without a roof it's still a Caterham. However, I want to build a car and maintain one myself, for the sense of achievement and to get more techincally minded. Plus it is very difficult (and very expensive) to tune any 911 to achieve the dynamics of an Ultima. Sure, carbon bits can take the weight down to 1100kgs in a 911, but you would have to spec an Ultima *up* to hit that. And 600bhp engines for Ultimas are turn key at about 10k, and that's a figure that would probably be swallowed up just by tuning a 964RS engine to close to 400. As Steve says, I am a young guy, and the Ultima is my ultimate road car in terms of performance, running costs, reliability and drama. Lamborghinis and Ferraris don't do it for me as much as they used to. I have driven a raft of Porsches, M BMWs, Ferraris, Audis even exotica like the BMW M1 and Bentley Arnage, and the conclusion I have come to is a two car garage comprising of an Ultima and an interesting four seat sports saloon (currently the BMW). In a one car garage, there would be a 993RS... or maybe when I get a bit older, I will soften up a bit and get a 996 (or a Cayenne). Cheers Domster (apologies to everyone other than sb930 and CS who may have found this boring)

With you on this one Domster - I'm as much a Porsche enthusiast as you'll find but you've come to a point where you're comparing chaulk with cheese. Tuning an RS to within an inch of it's life for silly money (which you'll struggle to ever recover of course) is not far off the Golf (sorry Iggs )/Saxo boys that we usually giggle at. ie: Tuning a Saxo from 140 to 180 bhp for massive money will of course make it a better and more fun car, but when you can buy a 325i BMW with better spec everything (and probably cheaper/better looks/more class IMO) why bother?? Similar arguement here or am I going to get shot?

Yeah, it is basically a question of trying to turn a 911 (road car) into something the Ultima is already (race car). That the Ultima passes an SVA test and has number plates is almost incidental. That said, fluffy dice will always have a home on my BMW and I admire 9M's efforts to improve the Porsche breed dynamically

I like it as it is now because: a) I like to read ALL the Porsche posts. b) I don't have to scroll down to the 2nd page to find Porsche amongst all the other marques. Paul

I wouldn't exactly call either the 964RSR or the 993RSR (clubsport versions) road cars, they are road legal racers for sure and I would hazard a guess that they are not much slower than all but the fastest Ultimas and would probably be a lot cheaper to run. What is the cost of a turnkey car from Ult, £50K or more? Buy a 964RS and spend £20k and it will be a very close run race in time and money, I suspect.

But the 993RSR is based on a 911 road car. That is really the point I am making. The clubsport especially has been fettled to racing ends, but you would have problems fitting Ultima track or width wheels without GT2 arch extensions etc. They would certainly be up there with the Ultimas, even with a horsepower deficit, but Ultimas are pretty cheap to run... yank V8s are horrendously cheap for purchase and parts. Cost for Ult is 40k self build, about 65k factory build assuming a decent spec. These figures are comparable to the new price of a 964RS or 993RS etc. but second hand a 964RS does give you the best value for money. Not sure the same is true if you started with a 993RSR at 60k... Main thing is resale I suppose. An Ultima GTR with decent engine will always fetch 40k, yet would a 964RS fetch that with 20k of fettling? Maybe mid- late 30s if a 964RSR replica?

Dom, Yeah, I can see your points, the Ult is a track car made road legal, whereas the RSR is a road car made track wise. As for performance, the best 964RS to date with 365bhp atmo motor has done 0-140mph in 18.6 seconds on standard street tyres & std gearing, but even with our new +3 engine I doubt that we would see less than 17 secs. However, our 993C4 narrow body turbo with its 600bhp Motec single turbo motor at 1400kg will sure make a dent in your 0-160 time, total project cost around £45-50k, and it drives to the shops looking like a normal 993 with a spoiler on the back. We won't mention the 4 foot flames between gears then.

I was talking to Dom over a beer last night and he was suggesting the time might be right to expand the Porsche forum to have its own section within the Gassing Station rather than being one of the 'afterthoughts' as he put it How do you guys feel about the Porsche forum becoming? Porsche > General Porsche Stuff > Watercooled > Air Cooled