My first Autocross!

Just got done with my first autocross. Actually, it was more of an autocross clinic than a true competitive autocross. I figured I've been doing quite a bit of DE, have been getting fairly good at it , heh-heh-he, and I should broaden my experience a bit. Here are a few impressions. 1. I suck at it! I'm too brusque, no smoothness to speak of, and I plan the car placement several cones too late. But, man, it's a ton of FUN!!!! I DID generate enough G's consistently that my Brake Fluid Level warning light comes on at the slaloms. 2. The C4S behaves very differently at low speed than at high speed. When the limit is exceeded, it plows like the dickens, and its very tough to recover. Impression number 1 may have a lot to do with it. 3. The gas pedal is your friend. PSM off, lift, whip that butt around, then plant those fat tires and blast towards the next gate. The autocross is an excellent place to learn throttle steering. Just have to be smoother. 4. A tip may actually be better in autocross. Egad, I can't believe I said that. 5. All Porsche people are cool. Everyone had giant smiles, eager to have fun, and eager to make sure you are having as much fun as they are. I have yet to encounter a grump at a car event. 5. Did I mention it's a ton of FUN? <img border="0" alt="[jumper]" title="" src="graemlins/jumper.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[burnout]" title="" src="graemlins/burnout.gif" />

Makes me drewl in envy! Waz

It's not hard to set up, Waz. All you need is a couple of cones and a large open paved lot and some friends/competitors with timers. It's very simillar to the old style parking lot shenanigans, except that there is now a serpentine course you have to traverse, and you actually have practice good performance driving skill to traverse it well. It's also a good way to find out about losing control, since the only thing that happens is that you take out a couple of cones. You do learn from that experience, and can better predict the limit. Actually, if you do lose control and spin out, you usually get a standing ovation, heh-heh-heh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Palting: <strong> Actually, if you do lose control and spin out, you usually get a standing ovation, heh-heh-heh.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Or even worse, the regional TV could be there tapping for a their show about cars and you could be the "lucky" one thats spinning out just when they are tapping!!... yes it happened to me <img border="0" alt="[icon107]" title="" src="graemlins/icon107.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Cool! Do you have video? I'd love to see that.

palting, thanks. i've been wondering how the C4S would behave in an Autocross. When you say "plows", you mean ?????

Palting, So would you do autox again? I do a lot of DE and have been on autox-like courses during a BMW CCA car control clinic and at the Skip Barber Racing School. It can enhance your track driving, but I'm told there is an awful lot of waiting around between very short runs. By the way, I learned at the above to look way ahead. It is hard to get used to looking out the side windows rather than the windshield. Regards, Mike

Sorry, Scott. I didn't bring my camera. I'm going to do it again, though, and I'll definitely bring the camera. P-Zen, when I say plows, it severely oversteers and just goes straight. If you go in too hot to a corner and crank the wheel, nothing happens!!! You can brake, lift, modulate, floor it.....it still just goes relatively straight. I kinda envied the 944's, with puny little 4 cylnders, doing power oversteers!! (Nothing derogatory, I said I envied them). I found I had to brake, release, turn, then brake again to bring the back end out, then gas to plant the back when the car is pointed right. This got me the best times. PSM has to be off, otherwise either the back end won't come loose, or, if it does come loose, the gas pedal won't work. Of course, the problem is consistensy, smoothness, and timing, to get it all right. All in fractions of a second, multiple times in one run. Man, that's hard!!! Mike, the waiting time all depends on the number of participants, the course, and the timing gear. They can run several cars simultaneously if the course is right and you have the capability of running multiple timers. We were running two staggered cars on the course at a time, and waiting seemed forever but was only about 10 minutes for runs that go about a minute for the good driver/cars. I'm definitely doing it again, and this time competitively. We are doing a series of 6 races, wirth the prize for each class winner a set of track tires, and I'm in the novice class .

Palting, We had an autocross on Sunday i have videos but i have to edit them.. T'was with some guys in a big parking area, we put tyres and did the circles.. Problem is that i lost my sets of tyres, brand new.. now they've peeled off completely and there are none in this country! I think i got carried away doing donuts and figure 8's.. Good news is Pcar timed best lap amongst all others.. Well, what do you expect, am driving it! Waz

palting, you mean "understeers" and just goes straight. yes? from earlier posts it seems that there's lots of disagreement as to how the C4S understeer is to be corrected. i always welcome more insight into that. thanks

Understeer is much more evident, like really much more evident, when you autocross.. It's really a strange behaviour compared to the understeer I am used to on the streets.. I didnt have the time to really get over it.. Waz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Scott_in_Houston: <strong>Cool! Do you have video? I'd love to see that. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nope, but it wasn't in my 996, it was trying out a Boxster S... more oversteer than I'm used to... <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

I know it's probably way different, but my Boxster understeers a lot too. At my last AX I finally got to a point where I could correct it and keep from loosing a ton of time. I would lift just a little to take some of the weight off the front tires, at the same time turn the wheel back (straight) just barely so they would get a some bite. Once the fronts have bite again I would smoothly turn them back into the turn. It feels really weird since it is absolutely NOT what intuition tells you to do (I'm not turning, so turn the wheel more!). But it worked. I was amazed at how well it did the trick and at how few cones I killed in the process (I stayed on the track when I felt certain straightening the wheel would send me off). Anyway, like I said, I'm not sure the C4S will behave the same given the same conditions. Just thought I would tell you what has worked for me. /net

Your severe understeer in in part due to the fact that you are coming into the corner TOO hot, exceeding the limits of the fiction circle when in fact you most likely should be braking harder earlier to set up for the corner. Its about being S M O O T H and looking where you want to go. May I suggest that you consider doing the Porsche Driving Experience and what I've just written will become crystal clear. Also a good driver with PSM on will wip your butt, the throtle steer you mention is not forward momentum= slower. Another trick, imagine a string from the bottom of the steering wheel to the accellerator pedal. Only when the wheel is straight is full throtle allowed. ie: As you unwind the wheel it allows for more throtle

Hello all, great thread! I feel obligated to say a few things. Palting, when a car plows(turn wheel and car wants to go straight) that is called UNDERsteer, not oversteer as you stated. I know you know this, but when I was re-reading the post 5 or 6 times, something didnt look right. Glad you had fun. Autocross is a blast, but it sure is a lot of waiting around for not a lot of driving time. This is why I have started to concentrate on DE events. I will also say that I learned how to drive at Autocross. Because it is so quick, you are forced to learn a lot in a short period of time. NetManiac, when you lift off of the throttle, weight will ALWAYS be added to the front. Always. You are experiencing understeer. When the weight is transferred to the front by lifting off of the throttle, the tires will gain some traction. At that point, once the tires grip, you can start to squeeze back on the throttle. Imagine a string tied to the gas pedal and the bottom of the steering wheel. When the wheel is turned, the string pulls the gas pedal back up. As you straighten out the wheel the throttle can be pushed down at a proportionate level. Hope this wasnt too confusing.... Good Luck all!

John: You're right, sorry, I got that backwards. I'm still learning all this stuff myself. I do know that whatever I did seemed to do the trick since I jumped from 6th to 2nd in my class at the last event . Lifting transfers the weight TO the front wheels theyby giving them MORE traction so they will have a greater ability to grab again. The string analogy is interesting. But how does it work when you want to rotate the car (i.e. pitch-and-catch). As I understand it the procedure is Gas -&gt; Turn -&gt; Lift -&gt; Gas. So there are occasions where you want turn with the throttle on (not all the way mind you, but on none-the-less). I do enjoy autocrossing and I'm hoping to do my first DE in June at California Speedway. Don't know if it's going to spoil me or not though. I'll have to wait and see. /net

Oops, my fault. <img border="0" alt="[oops]" title="" src="graemlins/oops.gif" /> I meant understeer just goes straight. I've found DE to be somwhat easier that auto cross. DE is done at a much higher speed, but you have more time to plan and execute the manuevers. Autocross, although slower, the turns are so abrupt and come so quick you have to perform instinctively, almost without thinking. You also have to be planning two turns ahead while executing the current turn. I'm sure seat time in each event has a lot to do with it, since I've done waaaay more DE than autocross. Not to put down PDE, MJones, but I don't know if there is anything more I can gain from it other than more seat time. The fundamentals, such as the skid pad, slalom, etc, are fine, but my specific problem now is to be able to execute the moves. The PDE is otherwise an excellent if not expensive way to learn about the capabilities of the car.

the String from the wheel to the toe example for acceleration ---&gt; by Vic Elford in "Porsche High-performance driving hand book"... old but great book

Twice a year our local PCA hosts a Performance Driving School. I attended my first one two weeks ago (which is why I'm still beating myself up for forgetting which way the weight transfers when you lift <img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" /> ). It was very eudcational and gives you a lot of what PDE does (slalom, skid pad, threshold breaking, etc) for a fraction of the cost. I just assumed other local clubs had the same program, is that not the case? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Autocross, although slower, the turns are so abrupt and come so quick you have to perform instinctively, almost without thinking.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">This is exactly what I am hoping to get from AX and take to the track. I'll have much less to think about when I'm out there if I've already learned how to instinctively correct for understeer, rotate the car, be smooth , etc. /net

Needles to say, BE SMOOTH is the best advice you can take. I've driven professionally in formula cars, Toyota Atlantics, French Formula 3 and French Formula Renault. Weight transfer understanding is extremely important. If its understeering transfering weight to the front tires will give you more traction. Keep in mind that many manufacturers dial in understeer into their suspensions, as they believe its "safer" for the road...BE SMOOTH...once the weight is transferred the front has more grip, SQUEEZE the throttle...BE SMOOTH...the idea is to keep the car well balanced...did I mention BE SMOOTH...

In DE and Auto cross the principals of driving are exactly the same. Braking Turn in, Etc and the car responses the same in DE's, you've just not met the limits. The Friction Circle never changes.

Palting - Autox is tons of fun. I've done it a few times now and plan to do more. Suggestions I've heard from very experienced autox'ers is that you shouldn't use oversteer to turn, just go in more slowly and accelerate out early (awd is very handy!).