race with M3/speeding arrest question

Tonight I got in a race with a new M3 with SMG and 19's. He was slightly faster until apx. 130 mph, where I had considerable gains. Is that normal? He seemed pretty pleased with himself. My larger question is, what happens if you get caught at 150 mph in a 55 zone on the highway? The thought crossed my mind as I slowed down after he exited. I know that some gumballers have had their cars taken in Europe, but can that happen in the US?

In most cases, you will be handcuffed and escorted directly to jail, do not pass go and collect $200, but get your lawyer on the phone. Your car will be immediately impounded and you will lose your license. Again, not in every case, but most. Best bet: get yourself some track time and take it out on the track.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by AlexM: <strong>Tonight I got in a race with a new M3 with SMG and 19's. He was slightly faster until apx. 130 mph, where I had considerable gains. Is that normal? He seemed pretty pleased with himself. My larger question is, what happens if you get caught at 150 mph in a 55 zone on the highway? The thought crossed my mind as I slowed down after he exited. I know that some gumballers have had their cars taken in Europe, but can that happen in the US?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">wow! a SMG beat you? and that til 130mph. he must have been a really good driver. My advise. don't do it. No reason to go to Jail for going 150mph. The C4s just looks so nice, no need to prove anything to anyone.

Penalties for speeding vary from state to state, but you can look up what it would mean in your state. In some states you'd be taken directly to jail by an officer who's mad as hell; no ticket and "Have a nice day" farewell by the side of the road. You could be bailed out, but not drive home.You would have to appear in court, and you'd better have an experienced lawyer and do whatever he or she says. You would probably pay a very large fine (with court costs), lose your right to drive for some period, and have to complete a remedial drivers' ed course (which you would also pay for). 95 mph over the limit is bad; really bad; but not nearly as bad as racing at 95 mph over the limit. In other states you'd get your choice; gas, electricity, or lethal injection. Every time I think I'd like to open'er up on the highway, that's what goes through my mind; that and smashing into some minivan that pulled out in front of me from a driveway. That's probably one reason they let us open'er up on the track instead.

In California , if you are deemed to be " racing" , even by yourself - and that can mean just flying by at an undefined high speed , and you cause a little ol' lady to be startled and run herself fatally off the road , you can now be charged not with the usual manslaughter , but 2nd degree murder . That happened in a case in Hayward (the Bay Area )a couple years ago. There are always lots of pi**ed off witnesses you pass , too. Bit of a life changing consequence of putting the testosterone pedal to the metal , don'cha think.

Well said by everyone. Racing to 150mph is just unsafe for you and very irresponsible towards all other vehicles on the road. Imagine some old lady that doesn't look in her rear view mirror making a lane change!!!! However the other issue that is brought up is the M3 SMG beating a C4S to 130 MPH. I have said this before and will say it again; Porsche needs to offer significantly more power to compete with today's rivals. I know that at the track the Porsche is best but a $90,000.00 sports car with few creature comforts should be able to whip a $50,000.00 GT in every way. It looks like the next gen base corvette will have almost 425hp and the Z06 near 500 hp. The next M3 coming out around the same time as the next Porsche will probably have over 400 hp and the RS4 will have over 450 hp. I'm sure the next Porsche will be at the lower end of those numbers. Then Porsche can claim how the TT can whip all those cars. Great, but shouldn't the base 911 beat sports cars priced tens of thousands cheaper? Is there currently another sports car (M3, M5, E55, C32, Jag R, corvette base, Z06, Viper, S4, CTS-V etc.) above $35,000 with less power than a Porsche?

After dicing with an Audi after I got the new M5, I found that the speedo was at 140. This in a 55 zone. I realized that jail and probably LOSING my job (I'm supposed to have good judgement), I decided to confine my excursions to the upper RPM ranges to the track. It is safer all around. It is also LEGAL!

Great points above. Biz associate got a ticket going 102 in California with his son asleep in the front seat, really opened his eyes to what could have happened (102 on the freeway is not TOO bad, but this was on a small 2 laner near Palm Springs, at night). Regarding the new crop of cars with power to keep with the 911...I posted a month ago my "drive" with a 97 M3 and I was shocked how closely the cars were matched, his being modified a bit. I did "drive" against a new M3 Cab and beat it soundly from 65-95 each time. I didnt buy my C4 for this reason, rather the handling ti car is supposed to have. So far, complete disappointment as I hadnt realized the stock car needs the M030 (or PSS9!) suspension upgrade to perform at the level described in the magazine tests. Cant decide to upgrade or move on to the M3/M5 and get a more comfortable ride. P cars have the look though. '01 C4

I happen to be a Deputy Sheriff and also hold a regional SCCA racing license. As for the arrest question, in Florida, you would be arrested. The first time is a second degree misdemeanor with a fine between $250 and $500, plus a one year suspension of your driver's license. Second time is a first degree misdemeanor with a fine between $500 and $1000 with a 2 year suspension of your license. Depending on your driving skills and the officer's attitude, you may get charged with reckless driving as well that can get you 90 days in jail. Then there's the speeding ticket you'd get and fines are quite high with that speed. That having been said, you really need to get your car on a track and race the right way. Once you've been on a track and have been taught how to drive, you'll not want to do it on the street. Not only will you have a better appreciation for your car and yourself, you'll realize that racing on the streets is just plain dumb. It's not only other drivers that are a concern, but the road conditions themselves. A race track is groomed and kept in near perfect condition. At these speeds, it doesn't take very much of a road surface irregularity to ruin your day. Look at it like this - a jumbo jet airplane becomes airborne at about 150MPH. It's the aerodynamic lift that creates enough force to lift such a heavy object. Race cars would easily become airborne if not for the wings they have on them to produce a negative lift. In fact, if you put a road upside down and a race car was travelling at 130MPH, if would be glued to the track and not fall down (as long as the speed was kept up, of course). At 130MPH (or less) on the roads in a production car, there is a significant amount of lift that is created. The amount of rubber on the road is much less than at 55MPH. If you hit a slight bump or other surface irregularity at that speed, your car can become airborne. Maybe only to a very slight degree, but that slight degree means you have no steering, no braking and no acceleration. Do you really want this? I sure wouldn't. Racing on the street is a huge gamble. Not just in getting caught, but you don't have a predictable road surface, most likely you are not trained to drive at high speeds, and the guy you're racing is of unknown skill and demeanor. It's fun to go fast, but do it smart. Join the PCA and go to Driver's Ed. Or join the SCCA and get your racing license. It's a heck of a lot more fun.

I completely agree with Deputy Brown. Just to add a point, there are lots of car clubs where you can learn to run on the track and with different makes. It is common to see Porsches, BMWs, Ferraris, ZO6s, etc. at the events. After you get some skills under your belt and maybe move up to the solo run group, you can, in relative safety, see how you do against other cars and more importantly other drivers. The driver is usually more important than the car, by the way. For example, the former chief instructor at my local PCA region runs a stock 944S and he is quicker than most everyone else, including 996s, BoxsterSs, etc. Regards, Mike

you mean you expect to get caught while driving a porsche? why let a cheap, slow, poor handling american car get that close. that's blasphemy. okay, just kidding. way too many variables off the track to get to those speeds. life is too valuable....especially the lives of the rest of us if you don't respect your own.

<a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-speeders5may05,1,3716041.story?coll=la%2Dhome%2Dtodays%2Dtimes" target="_blank">http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-speeders5may05,1,3716041.story?coll=la%2Dhome%2Dtodays%2Dtimes</a>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by MKW: <strong>In California , if you are deemed to be " racing" , even by yourself - and that can mean just flying by at an undefined high speed , </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I haven't ever seen any reference in the CA vehicle code to "racing, by yourself" Do you have the section handy?

If you like to go fast in the People's Republic of California, you need the following: 1. A Valentine 1 2. Lidatek Laser Echo 3. Eyes glued to your rear view mirror 4. A highly skilled attorney Fortunately in CA unless the Freeway is in a radar enforced zone, the cop needs to pace you, so if you are highly attentive on the Freeway, you can usually spot the cop before he gets to pace you. For a highway, the V1 and Lidatek are your best bets. The right lawyer can also be an indispensible tool if you happen to get caught.

For those who don't subscribe to the LA Times website. <a href="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-speeders5may05,1,3716041.story?coll=la%2Dhome%2Dtodays%2Dtimes" target="_blank">http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-speeders5may05,1,3716041.story?coll=la%2Dhome%2Dtodays%2Dtimes</a> Speeders Push Past 100 MPH CHP says the number of tickets issued for three-digit speeds has tripled in 10 years. By Jia-Rui Chong Times Staff Writer May 5, 2003 SAN BERNARDINO -- Kenneth Smith wanted to get to Corona by 7 p.m. to pick up a glass vase on layaway. Instead, the 18-year old ended up with his first speeding ticket � for driving 101 mph. "I was going downhill at what I thought was 90," Smith said, standing on the shoulder of the Cajon Pass recently as CHP Officer Mark D. Conner issued the citation. "I didn't even notice, because the music was on, I was dialing numbers on my phone and I was switching lanes." Smith is not alone. Speeds of more than 100 mph are not uncommon throughout California. The number of California Highway Patrol citations for driving more than 100 mph has tripled statewide over the last decade. In 1992, 5,290 drivers received tickets, compared with 15,372 last year. In parts of the Inland Empire, such as San Bernardino and Temecula, the numbers have more than quadrupled in the last 10 years, from 184 in 1992 to 856 last year. High ticket areas include the 17-mile Baker Grade on Interstate 15 southbound from Las Vegas and Interstate 10 from Banning through Indio, CHP officials said. Inland Empire law enforcement officers said they have seen all types of people breaking 100 mph on the freeways, from older men to young mothers with babies in their cars. "It's any car from the Saturn to the Porsche," said Lee Nuez, a spokesman for the CHP's Inland Division. "Speed is no respecter of vehicles out here." Excuses abound. Lateness is typical. Some blame illness; others say they don't even notice their speedometers hitting the triple digits. Jim Sprowls, on his way back from a fishing trip in Hesperia, said he was just following the flow of traffic that was going 80 mph in a 70 mph zone. "I may have been going over the speed limit," the Rialto resident said. But there "ain't no one going the speed limit." Humorous Excuses Some of the excuses make even experienced officers chuckle. Indio CHP Officer Tami Low said drivers have told her they were hypnotized by books on tape. "Something I get often is, 'I had to use the restroom,' " Low said. "I tell them, 'But you just passed a rest stop. Why didn't you stop at the Chevron a mile back?' Then they give me this 'You got me' look." Low acknowledged that some drivers may hit the pedal too hard without realizing it. "Usually people are traveling long distances when they go through here," she said. "It's two lanes in either direction with nothing to look at and not a lot of exits. The speed can creep up to 100 and you don't realize it." While that might appear hard to imagine to city motorists who would be happy to go more than 60 mph, most of the citations are given to people on less congested freeways. Light traffic volume on seemingly endless straightaways and smoother-driving cars can tempt many motorists to nose the needle above 100 mph, particularly if adrenaline is pumping on a trip to Las Vegas, some officers said. They also said that the growing desert population, with many people trying to cut time from their commute to Los Angeles, drives up the statistics. Some CHP officials cautioned, however, that the bumped-up numbers may reflect an improved detection method. "In 2000, we started using radar on the freeways, which makes it easier to catch people," said Ron Seldon, a CHP spokesman in San Bernardino. "Now we can sit in a spot and wait for them to come to us. It's like putting out a fishing net." Putting Others at Risk Officers said they rarely give 100-plus speeders a break because they are traveling so fast and putting others at risk. Two Upland men died in January when an overcorrection on a turn made their car vault off the side of Temescal Canyon Road near Corona. CHP Officer Maurice Walker, who was at the accident, said he could tell the car was going more than 100 mph by the length of the accident scene, the skid marks and witness statements. The Subaru Impreza WRX flew 500 feet through the air, striking a tree and a fence before it hit the trailer of a big rig. The impact, which shoved the trailer four feet, killed the driver and a passenger. "Judges take a dim view of cases over 100 mph," said J. Michael Welch, presiding judge for San Bernardino County. "Fines tend to be $500, and they may take the license." Not only have his traffic commissioners seen double the number of 100-plus-mph offenders in their courts since last year, but the violations seem more flagrant too, Welch said. "We also see more extremes," he said. "There are people in Barstow cited for 120 to 130 mph." Occasionally, local police will catch 100-plus speeders on city streets. Two weeks ago, Victorville police caught a motorist going more than 100 mph on a four-lane road. Lyman Baker, a spokesman for the Victorville Police Department, said the 33-year-old man told them he was late to pick up his daughter. Meanwhile, at the 70-mph Cajon Pass on Interstate 15, the CHP's Conner was having an average afternoon. With his patrol car parked on the center divider, the 23-year CHP veteran aimed his radar gun between two trees and spotted a Chevrolet Blazer blowing past smaller cars and lumbering trucks at 101 mph. "I'm late to pick up my girlfriend," said the 17-year-old boy, who was driving his mother's car. He declined to give his name because he said he was in enough trouble with his mother, adding, "Now I'm even later."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Great, but shouldn't the base 911 beat sports cars priced tens of thousands cheaper? Is there currently another sports car (M3, M5, E55, C32, Jag R, corvette base, Z06, Viper, S4, CTS-V etc.) above $35,000 with less power than a Porsche?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I used to think the same thing about your comment, but then when you consider the market porsche is selling 996's to, it compares to SC430's, SL500's, or previously with BMW, they had 850's, but now they nolonger have the 2 door 80k car. Porsche isn't trying to prove that their king of the road with the normal production 911, if you want the fast ones, get a GT3 or TT. 911 is still ahead of their category if you compare it to the cars they are really competing with. I got my 996 because although its not fast on the road, it is trackable immediately out of the box yet 100% streetable. Any of the other cars you mentioned above will either need some sort of mod to be tracked properly, or if it is trackable from the box, is a crappy ride on the street...i.e. viper/corvette.

Hi guys, this is my first post here in this forum. I would like to first say I love Porsches! I think they are one of the best looking cars on the road, as well as the best handling. I want one badly! :-) That said I came here because someone pointed me to this thread (another 911 owner). He has a sweet looking 911 with aero kit, roll bar, etc. Anyway, just wanted to say hello and also respond to SMG questions. I have a 2002 M3 SMG, which I got in Aug.02 and I have about 8k miles. Anyway, someone made a comment about the driver being really good to beat the 911 driver. But the point of the SMG is flawless shifts.. so that it's faster than human. 1800 milliseconds I believe for avg. human, while Ferrari's F1 got it down to 800ms, BMW's SMG II (2nd iteration) got it at an even miniscule 80ms. So the shifts are precise and fast. There's also a launch control that does optimum launch without wheelspin.. it's a highly advanced system which they got from their experience on their BMW F1 Williams racing team. Anyway, just wanted to clarify that little point. Enjoy your cars but yes drive safe! I am going to a track to do more outrageous moves but on highway I've only done 125 on a deserted 4 lane highway at like 3 in the morning. Radar detectors are illegal in VA so I'm very careful. BTW, are images disabled in this forum? I even used UBB code. :-(

Ruey, Come on man you're telling me that Porsche competes more closely with SL500, SC430 than a Z06, M3 or Viper. I find that hard to believe. Maybe you could say SL55 but that's unfair because the SL would pull away laughing from a stock C4S. Porsches are sports cars; people buy them because of their sportiness. If what you say is true and BMW 850, SC430 and SL500 owners are looking at Porsche than were in big trouble because they kill Porsche on creature comforts. Clearly Porsche is not trying to compete as a Grand Tourer. Porsche competes as a pure sports car and they do an excellent job. Except one small failure, POWER. Remember I'm talking about $75,000-$100,000 996's. I would absolutely die laughing if someone were to tell me that they are really torn, they can't decide between a 996 and an SC430 (it's like saying I can't decide between a Range Rover and a boat)!!!!

caneaddict, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Come on man you're telling me that Porsche competes more closely with SL500, SC430 than a Z06, M3 or Viper </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes I do...when you say compete, I am talking about buying market and potential new car owners. Used car market is a different story as this is a market that is price or money conscious and cannot afford the car at retail so they compare a old porsche 996 C2 for $50k to a new M3 $50k for example. Porsche focuses on people who buy their cars new, not old as this is where they make money. Porsche focuses #1 on the price market they wish to target, then #2 focuses on what they will do to lure that market to consider the car over cars priced in that same range. I bought 7 new cars in the last 4 years, and never did I buy used so I know how the new car buying process works, also to be reassured by knowing firsthand several owners of new and used car dealerships in my area who can explain how the market operates. The price is set at comparable range as the cars I mentioned and majority who has 80k to buy a car considers their preferences and makes the decision. I'm almost certain that anyone who walked into a Porsche dealership looking at new 996's never compared them to another new car in a range 1/2 the porsche's price. (when was the last time you compared a rolex to a seiko?? I was comparing a Patek to a rolex when I bought a watch a while back.) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Porsches are sports cars; people buy them because of their sportiness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">you prove my point, but first they look at what they can afford, then look at the qualities they prefer. so it goes back to my comparison, people would say, I want to spend $80k on a car, then they would compare what they can get for at that price. Money is the overall deciding factor in most cases as not everyone has unlimited budgets and deep pockets. If this was not the case, then all porsche 996 owners would have TT's as they're pretty much the same car inside and out, but only faster and costlier. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Maybe you could say SL55 but that's unfair because the SL would pull away laughing from a stock C4S </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You're comparing a $125k vs. a $80k car. The SL55 goes against the 996TT which is why I say the SL500 would go against a 996 C2 either cab or coupe as it is now a hardtop/cab. My father recently purchased a SL55 for $140k as his budget was around $150k for a daily driver. In the buying process, he had one of his PA's check the market for similar cars in that price range as he knows jack lemons about cars like 75% of car buyers today. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> I would absolutely die laughing if someone were to tell me that they are really torn, they can't decide between a 996 and an SC430 (it's like saying I can't decide between a Range Rover and a boat)!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I guess you don't really know much people who have purchased NEW cars worth $80k-120k as you haven't died laughing yet. If most new car buyer's are the same as used car buyers, why aren't there people buying used 2000 996TT's vs. a new 2003 fully loaded C2? You can find a used 996TT on ebay for around $90k, but there is still a large majority of the market buying new cars for the same price 996tt's are going for used. New car buyers are completely in a different market. I myself, refused to buy used, as I rather buy a new car with clean history, vs. a used car that someone could have been having orgy's inside. Speaking of range rovers, my brother recently purchased one for $85k, I'm sure he was comparing it to a $50k Cadillac Escalade or hummer h2? Not really, he looked at SUV's in the 80k range, looked at G500's, Cayenne Turbo and Hummer H1, then decided what he liked best.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ruey220: <strong> why aren't there people buying used 2000 996TT's vs. a new 2003 fully loaded C2? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Because there is no such thing as a 2000 996TT. Simple.

Ruey First off I have owned many many $80,000-$200,000 cars and most of my friends own the same type of cars. I can't believe you are serious that people you know sit around comparing SC430's to Porsche's. Anyone who is seriously considering that type of car probably would not be happy with a Porsche as a daily driver. I agree with you that someone looking to spend $90,000 isn't going to buy an M3. However shouldn't he be able to beat an M3. I mean theoretically he's paying more to get better performance. There are different types of buyers. The ones that give up creature comforts for the sportiness of a Porsche do so because of how much they value that sportiness. Trust me, while it isn't often discussed in Porsche circles I know many 996 owners who are pissed knowing that when they pull next to a Z06 on the street or track they will get creamed and they certainly don't like seeing a smug teenager in an M3 pulling right along with them. Using your logic the Carrera GT will be competing with Rolls Royce, Bentleys and Maybachs since those are the only cars in its price range; the Veyron and F60 (after broker mark up) cost over twice as much and the SLR costs 30-40% less. By the way I recently sold a 2003 RR for an H2.

Oh and I don't really understand your whole new car vs used car thing. I am simply talking about new cars.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> First off I have owned many many $80,000-$200,000 cars and most of my friends own the same type of cars.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You and your friends know plenty about cars and are deeply involved with them otherwise you wouldn't be spending so much with them. Okay, maybe you're right about the SC430 as after doing a bit of research it is still in a much lower bracket than the 996s and falls in the M3 category. However, I still stand behind my argument that a new car buyer who knows nothing and is in the price range for a 996 would also look at cars such as the sl500, xkr, etc. a few friends in the car business gave me an idea of the buying process as I almost was an investor in one franchise. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Oh and I don't really understand your whole new car vs used car thing. I am simply talking about new cars. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">for the sake of argument, i'm just limiting the discussion and comparison to new car buyer and how one thinks. You have to remember that a majority of car buyer's know less than you as a car enthusiast, and a small fraction reads message boards like Rennlist or are PCA members. with this in mind, the typical new car buying process is somwhat simple as: #1) budget i want a luxury car within my budget of $80k or so #2) type of car I want a two door car that looks sporty, consider how much space, etc. with this in mind, the average joe would probably look at the cars that I mention. This also explains why we see so many porsche drivers these days that cannot even tell a fake GT3 from a real one. In the end though, you are right that if compared closely, the cars mentioned have large differences obvious enough to be a quick deciding factor for which one to buy. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> However shouldn't he be able to beat an M3. I mean theoretically he's paying more to get better performance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I still argue the regular 996's are targeted just for those looking for a nice $80k range car that has some power when needed, not for head to head racing. Porsche actually sacrificed performance factor for comfort to satisfy iffy 996 potential buyers. like why the heck did porsche start putting optional wood in the 996's???? (porsche just wants to sell cars and make money) This has kept my insecurity level for lack of power with the 996 in check with regards to M3... I think to myself, if I had an SL500, would I care if they could smoke me? No, because it is in a different category. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> By the way I recently sold a 2003 RR for an H2. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm just curious why you chose the H2 over the RR? I heard its like driving an armored truck, nothing wrong if you like it, you have your reasons. We tested both, and the only thing about the H2 we found appealing is the looks. Granted, the RR is really like a X5 with different body panels. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Because there is no such thing as a 2000 996TT. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">my mistake...i was confused because i took delivery for my 996 in 2000 and my dealer was trying to sell me an order for the new TT when they first took placements. This was in 2000 and I thought it was a 2000 model, but probably a 2001.

hi again, Noone really cares if M3 beats a 911. Many M3 guys wouldn't mind owning a 911 just because it's great looking and it's a Porsche.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ruey220: <strong>caneaddict, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Come on man you're telling me that Porsche competes more closely with SL500, SC430 than a Z06, M3 or Viper </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes I do...when you say compete, I am talking about buying market and potential new car owners. Used car market is a different story as this is a market that is price or money conscious and cannot afford the car at retail so they compare a old porsche 996 C2 for $50k to a new M3 $50k for example. Porsche focuses on people who buy their cars new, not old as this is where they make money. Porsche focuses #1 on the price market they wish to target, then #2 focuses on what they will do to lure that market to consider the car over cars priced in that same range. I bought 7 new cars in the last 4 years, and never did I buy used so I know how the new car buying process works, also to be reassured by knowing firsthand several owners of new and used car dealerships in my area who can explain how the market operates. The price is set at comparable range as the cars I mentioned and majority who has 80k to buy a car considers their preferences and makes the decision. I'm almost certain that anyone who walked into a Porsche dealership looking at new 996's never compared them to another new car in a range 1/2 the porsche's price. (when was the last time you compared a rolex to a seiko?? I was comparing a Patek to a rolex when I bought a watch a while back.) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Porsches are sports cars; people buy them because of their sportiness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">you prove my point, but first they look at what they can afford, then look at the qualities they prefer. so it goes back to my comparison, people would say, I want to spend $80k on a car, then they would compare what they can get for at that price. Money is the overall deciding factor in most cases as not everyone has unlimited budgets and deep pockets. If this was not the case, then all porsche 996 owners would have TT's as they're pretty much the same car inside and out, but only faster and costlier. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Maybe you could say SL55 but that's unfair because the SL would pull away laughing from a stock C4S </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">You're comparing a $125k vs. a $80k car. The SL55 goes against the 996TT which is why I say the SL500 would go against a 996 C2 either cab or coupe as it is now a hardtop/cab. My father recently purchased a SL55 for $140k as his budget was around $150k for a daily driver. In the buying process, he had one of his PA's check the market for similar cars in that price range as he knows jack lemons about cars like 75% of car buyers today. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> I would absolutely die laughing if someone were to tell me that they are really torn, they can't decide between a 996 and an SC430 (it's like saying I can't decide between a Range Rover and a boat)!!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I guess you don't really know much people who have purchased NEW cars worth $80k-120k as you haven't died laughing yet. If most new car buyer's are the same as used car buyers, why aren't there people buying used 2000 996TT's vs. a new 2003 fully loaded C2? You can find a used 996TT on ebay for around $90k, but there is still a large majority of the market buying new cars for the same price 996tt's are going for used. New car buyers are completely in a different market. I myself, refused to buy used, as I rather buy a new car with clean history, vs. a used car that someone could have been having orgy's inside. Speaking of range rovers, my brother recently purchased one for $85k, I'm sure he was comparing it to a $50k Cadillac Escalade or hummer h2? Not really, he looked at SUV's in the 80k range, looked at G500's, Cayenne Turbo and Hummer H1, then decided what he liked best.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I tend to agree with you on your point about "I have $80k to spend, what can I get" but, I have bought at least 7 cars in the last 4 years and I like to think I have some experience myself. When I want to spend $80k on a sports cart or Porsche, am I cross shopping sl500 or sc430??? Not a chance in hell. That is crazy IMHO. I do not see Porsche owners cross shopping thoses types of cars. -Lou

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Hey Ruey I sold my RR for the H2 for looks alone. Actually I think the Rover is a far superior product but I live in Miami so I'm really only buying SUV's for looks anyway. I would never sacrifice quality or speed in a sports car purely for looks but SUV's are SUV's in my book!

I am not a mathematician, but I did a sort of calculation: If you are travelling at approx 140-160MPH and the cop is parked in a 239HP Police Interceptor with the engine on, but gear in park and NOT using radar (ie. doing paperwork), you could theoretically exit at the next exit (assuming it was within 1/2 mile or less) and duck into a residential street or other location where you could not be found before he even starts to catch up. OK this is a little far fetched, but it might work!

I just got a 92mph ticket from a very nice cop in Mississippi (I love spelling that word).

Trojan funny you should mention that. Last spring I was going about 90 in a 45. I suddenly see a parked cop on the opposite side of the road turn his lights on and start pulling out. By the time he got out onto the road in my direction I had pulled into a neighborhood and flew around a bunch of turns to lose him. Man I know it was silly but that was SUCH a rush. I actually out ran a cop. I think everyone has dreamed of outrunning a cop. Granted it wasn't a 100 mile 180mph chase but it felt great nonetheless.

caneaddict, dusting the cops is surely something interesting.... a few years ago a friend of mine took me for a spin in an E36 328 the dealer lent him as a loaner. The spin was so much it made me barf out the window as we passed an intersection with a cop waiting for someone who would run the stop sign. this was around 11pm at night so we did the same cutting through some residential streets all the way to his nearby home at the top of a hill. We quickly parked the car in his garage jumped into another car and rolled back down the street. The funniest part is we made eye contact with that same cop that was trying to chase us as he was trying to look where we went. he must of recognized us slightly but the fact that we weren't breaking the law at that very moment or in the same car he couldn't do anything at that point.

I reluctantly add my comments to this thread due to the previous conversation about comparing various cars. The automotive market is WAY too complex to argue buyer hot buttons and attitudes. By the way I just bought an $87K C4-S and I almost bought a Subaru WRX STi instead....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> The automotive market is WAY too complex to argue buyer hot buttons and attitudes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">nobody could have said it better. we had a client who had 8 cars all exotic worth $60k - $120k, 996TT, NSX-r, Lexus SC430, M3, etc. then one day he pulled into our establishment with a new yellow $25k MRs spyder toyota.