Early 991.1 vs late 997.2 (Running costs) - Page 2 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Thinking about getting into one of these - prices seem similar for both. Would like to hear from previous owners of running costs etc. In terms of running costs - say over 5 years ownership - which will end up costing more as a daily (10k miles a year)? Assuming no warranty on either. Obviously 997.2 costs 600 a year on tax, and significantly more on on fuel - but in terms of reliability / and general maintenance - what would cost more? I was pretty convinced the 991 will be cheaper to run - but after watching a few ownership reviews - sounds like early 991.1 cars have a lot of reliability issues? Is this a rare occurrence - or actually quite accurate? Ps. 991.2 is totally out of budget - and only earlyish 991.1 is realistic for me. What's the more solid car?

If not all ready done a 997.2 will need, or be about to need, coolant pipes, exhaust fittings and, depending on mileage a clutch. Front condensers for a/c another common issue. Suspension, except for control arms and track rod ends (and sometimes ARBs) tends to be hardy and should do 100K. If you buy a 997.2 good to have £5k slush fund to make it perfect. No idea about a 991.1 I prefer the 997s (we have a 997.1 currently being fully refurbed and oversized to Hartech 4.1). Smaller and better helm in our opinion. But each to their own. Go with the one you prefer and don't get too bogged down on the running costs.

Discombobulate said: If not all ready done a 997.2 will need, or be about to need, coolant pipes, exhaust fittings and, depending on mileage a clutch. Front condensers for a/c another common issue. Suspension, except for control arms and track rod ends (and sometimes ARBs) tends to be hardy and should do 100K. If you buy a 997.2 good to have £5k slush fund to make it perfect. No idea about a 991.1 I prefer the 997s (we have a 997.1 currently being fully refurbed and oversized to Hartech 4.1). Smaller and better helm in our opinion. But each to their own. Go with the one you prefer and don't get too bogged down on the running costs. I concur with this, i bought 12 months ago a 2009 997.2, had all the above done within the last 12 months before i purchased it, and a 12 year massive service (it's PDK), bill was just over £5k, i'd buy one over a 991.1 too, but nice to have a choice.

Discombobulate said: If not all ready done a 997.2 will need, or be about to need, coolant pipes, exhaust fittings and, depending on mileage a clutch. Front condensers for a/c another common issue. Suspension, except for control arms and track rod ends (and sometimes ARBs) tends to be hardy and should do 100K. If you buy a 997.2 good to have £5k slush fund to make it perfect. No idea about a 991.1 I prefer the 997s (we have a 997.1 currently being fully refurbed and oversized to Hartech 4.1). Smaller and better helm in our opinion. But each to their own. Go with the one you prefer and don't get too bogged down on the running costs. Yeh the 997.2s I’m looking at are around 50-70k milers. Potential long long term car - independent of 991 or 997. But priority for me is the ability to afford to run it regardless of miles (I know it sounds silly that I’m prioritising cost especially at for 40-50k car, but i want the car that’s the more solid built rather than what I prefer - I’m going to like either regardless, and there’ll be times I’d prefer the daily ability of 991 and there’ll be times when I’ll want to more raw feel of 997). Even when it comes to looks and size - they both are equally as appealing but for different reasons.

Gregmitchell said: I concur with this, i bought 12 months ago a 2009 997.2, had all the above done within the last 12 months before i purchased it, and a 12 year massive service (it's PDK), bill was just over £5k, i'd buy one over a 991.1 too, but nice to have a choice. Yeh sold on the 997.2 but then a decent one costs very similar to a 991… and I can’t deny the extra daily ability of 991. But if the 991 - from what the reviews seem to imply have numerous expensive things that need fixing… then just wondering whether I’m not better off with the older and rarer 997.2. What real world mpg do you get on a 997.2 when just pootling around - and not on a run? I’m only looking at manuals tho

Hi, I have a 997.2 c2s, its a manual, I’ve owned it for around 4 years, it’s around 30mpg in normal day to day, it came with a 1 year warranty when purchased and needed the air con condensers doing (under warranty) it’s also had a major 12 year service, I had the clutch changed along with swapping to a lightweight flywheel, and had a fast road geo done at the same time along with rear lower arms, total was about £4k I think, it’s due a minor service this spring but hopefully that should be it for a year or two fingers crossed, it’s currently on cup 2’s which may get changed to ps4s at some point, hope that helps

Not an easy answer on running costs….what you don’t mention is the deprecation word. If you are happy to have a manual there is no doubt in my mind that a manual 997.2 will be the cheapest car to run from a deprecation perspective. Manual also cheaper from a maintenance perspective/risk of expensive parts.

Surely it’s nigh on impossible to guess on different second hand cars, some of which are well over ten years old?

Running costs I'd expect to be quite similar between them and it is the same base engine in both. They are both ~10y old cars so some things will need replaced and some parts might fail. The bigger difference would be in how well that particular car had been maintained & general condition. I had a 986.2 that cost far more to run than either the 987.1 that replaced it, or my current 997.2 (C2S manual). All were at similar ages, just that much more needed replaced on the 986. I put £200 a month in a running account that covers servicing/tax/insurance/tyres etc most of the time. Fuel economy is fine, but not great - I get mostly low-mid 20's in mixed driving in the 997.2 and can just sneak over 30 on a motorway run

Look for a good history of recent works (the list above). And it can be surprisingly cheap motoring. Should hold value well too - even in these odd times.

Cheib said: Not an easy answer on running costs….what you don’t mention is the deprecation word. If you are happy to have a manual there is no doubt in my mind that a manual 997.2 will be the cheapest car to run from a deprecation perspective. Manual also cheaper from a maintenance perspective/risk of expensive parts. Yeh I’m not too concerned about depreciation… potential forever car (or at least own for 5-10 years) - it’s more just the ability to drive it every day with total disregard for miles.

Gixxer6001 said: Hi, I have a 997.2 c2s, its a manual, I’ve owned it for around 4 years, it’s around 30mpg in normal day to day, it came with a 1 year warranty when purchased and needed the air con condensers doing (under warranty) it’s also had a major 12 year service, I had the clutch changed along with swapping to a lightweight flywheel, and had a fast road geo done at the same time along with rear lower arms, total was about £4k I think, it’s due a minor service this spring but hopefully that should be it for a year or two fingers crossed, it’s currently on cup 2’s which may get changed to ps4s at some point, hope that helps Yeh 4K sounds expensive if it’s at same time. But if it’s 1k a year just on maintenance, then I guess that sounds relatively ok considering age of car etc.

AlR26 said: Running costs I'd expect to be quite similar between them and it is the same base engine in both. They are both ~10y old cars so some things will need replaced and some parts might fail. The bigger difference would be in how well that particular car had been maintained & general condition. I had a 986.2 that cost far more to run than either the 987.1 that replaced it, or my current 997.2 (C2S manual). All were at similar ages, just that much more needed replaced on the 986. I put £200 a month in a running account that covers servicing/tax/insurance/tyres etc most of the time. Fuel economy is fine, but not great - I get mostly low-mid 20's in mixed driving in the 997.2 and can just sneak over 30 on a motorway run Yeh I’m only buying a car with a flawless history. I’d rather save up a bit longer for the right car, unless its a bargain that needs TLC. Yeh sounds silly but I’m just completely against paying the gov £600 in tax, so it’s going to be tough to find an early lowish miler gen 2 that falls outside that tax bracket. Reason why I was initially leaning towards a 991 - and also the daily ability. I guess I just need weigh it all up.

Discombobulate said: If not all ready done a 997.2 will need, or be about to need, coolant pipes, exhaust fittings and, depending on mileage a clutch. Front condensers for a/c another common issue. Suspension, except for control arms and track rod ends (and sometimes ARBs) tends to be hardy and should do 100K. If you buy a 997.2 good to have £5k slush fund to make it perfect. No idea about a 991.1 I prefer the 997s (we have a 997.1 currently being fully refurbed and oversized to Hartech 4.1). Smaller and better helm in our opinion. But each to their own. Go with the one you prefer and don't get too bogged down on the running costs. Sorry for the off topic, I didn’t realise they could take the 3.8 C2S all the way up to 4.1, I think mine will be due for some Hartech tlc sooner rather than later and this sounds interesting. One thing I’m keen to keep is the incredible sound of the 997.1 C2S, did they say any thing about how the rebuild might affect this, if at all? While more torque is always good frankly the stock C2S is fast enough so it’s the experience that counts. Thanks

Archie2050 said: Sorry for the off topic, I didn’t realise they could take the 3.8 C2S all the way up to 4.1, I think mine will be due for some Hartech tlc sooner rather than later and this sounds interesting. One thing I’m keen to keep is the incredible sound of the 997.1 C2S, did they say any thing about how the rebuild might affect this, if at all? While more torque is always good frankly the stock C2S is fast enough so it’s the experience that counts. Thanks Well it's getting TopGear stainless manifolds and 200 cell cats to go with the existing PSE so will be comparing apples with pears. But will report back. Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 2nd January 12:31

Discombobulate said: Archie2050 said: Sorry for the off topic, I didn’t realise they could take the 3.8 C2S all the way up to 4.1, I think mine will be due for some Hartech tlc sooner rather than later and this sounds interesting. One thing I’m keen to keep is the incredible sound of the 997.1 C2S, did they say any thing about how the rebuild might affect this, if at all? While more torque is always good frankly the stock C2S is fast enough so it’s the experience that counts. Thanks Well it's getting TopGear stainless manifolds and 200 cell cats to go with the existing PSE so will be comparing apples with pears. But will report back. Edited by Discombobulate on Monday 2nd January 12:31 Thanks, it would be fascinating to hear how it works out, please do start a thread when you have some feedback! It could end up being better than a GTS. (Sorry for the OT once again OP)

Archie2050 said: Thanks, it would be fascinating to hear how it works out, please do start a thread when you have some feedback! It could end up being better than a GTS. (Sorry for the OT once again OP) Thread on 911uk

I had an Airchamber and used it for several years. Good as it has a frame and a “side door” but as Chris says they are a pain to use if you’re in a rush! I broke a couple of the stays - they are fibreglass. So you need to be precise wuth parking. Did the job though nicely.

Really difficult to predict how much either car will cost to run, particularly as they get older. There is always the chance of a big bill, something unexpected or a combination of brakes, tyres, service plus something else occurring at the same time, meaning a ‘big’ bill. I would estimate that an average of £2k pa would be more realistic, not including tax or fuel. Some years lower some higher. You might get lucky, or stumble across a car that has everything done (brakes, tyres, condensers, rads, suspension, major service)….. Have you driven the 991 yet? Some don’t like the electric steering or manual box vs the 997 variant. Happy hunting!

2011 997.2, owned for 5 years and 30k miles (now at 54k), spent £1.8k a year on average. Some years nothing was needed, in 2020 I had a £6k bill including tyres and loads of suspension-related stuff. This year will definitely increase the average to £2k+ due to the 12 year service and a new set of TPM sensors. Mine is PDK, 4WD *and* a Cabriolet so pretty much every regular maintenance item is due at the same time.

shuebc said: Yeh I’m only buying a car with a flawless history. I’d rather save up a bit longer for the right car, unless its a bargain that needs TLC. Yeh sounds silly but I’m just completely against paying the gov £600 in tax, so it’s going to be tough to find an early lowish miler gen 2 that falls outside that tax bracket. Reason why I was initially leaning towards a 991 - and also the daily ability. I guess I just need weigh it all up. Mine is on a 58 plate (09 model year car but one of the earliest) and the tax is £600 ish. The cheaper tax was cars pre 2006 that wouldnt apply to a 997 gen 2 (but should be some gen 1s). Are the 991's in a cheaper tax band? TBH I thought the 986 was a sound car that had been well looked after. Would recommend having any potentials inspected and/or buy from one of the better reputed indys.

997.2 3.6 comes in at tax band K which is £360 a year currently

Mankers said: Really difficult to predict how much either car will cost to run, particularly as they get older. There is always the chance of a big bill, something unexpected or a combination of brakes, tyres, service plus something else occurring at the same time, meaning a ‘big’ bill. I would estimate that an average of £2k pa would be more realistic, not including tax or fuel. Some years lower some higher. You might get lucky, or stumble across a car that has everything done (brakes, tyres, condensers, rads, suspension, major service)….. Have you driven the 991 yet? Some don’t like the electric steering or manual box vs the 997 variant. Happy hunting! Yeh I’m not counting consumable items such as brakes / tyres / spark plugs / service items as that’s something that would generally be done once a couple of years on any car. Fuel is important tho, yes, as it would become a big thing… I think the 997s are under 20 mpg? And 991s more like 25mpg plus, pretty big difference. For pootling around. It’s essentially more to do with known issues that wear / or fail unexpectedly on each model… (not that I’m considering a gen 1 997 at all - but for example the bore scoring etc). From my research so far - it sounds like 997 gen 2s are pretty much bullet proof and any thing that does happen, it’s just one of those one of things - just the fuel and tax does throw me off especially from a daily perspective. With the 991s - a few videos have pointed out quite a few reliability issues.. whereas some other vids say they are pretty solid cars, so a bit unsure on that end.

AlR26 said: Mine is on a 58 plate (09 model year car but one of the earliest) and the tax is £600 ish. The cheaper tax was cars pre 2006 that wouldnt apply to a 997 gen 2 (but should be some gen 1s). Are the 991's in a cheaper tax band? TBH I thought the 986 was a sound car that had been well looked after. Would recommend having any potentials inspected and/or buy from one of the better reputed indys. Yeh 991s fall into £330 tax band, just about acceptable.

Bp8575 said: 997.2 3.6 comes in at tax band K which is £360 a year currently Ah didn’t know that. So I’m guessing the 3.8 gen 2s are the £650 band

walnut3 said: 2011 997.2, owned for 5 years and 30k miles (now at 54k), spent £1.8k a year on average. Some years nothing was needed, in 2020 I had a £6k bill including tyres and loads of suspension-related stuff. This year will definitely increase the average to £2k+ due to the 12 year service and a new set of TPM sensors. Mine is PDK, 4WD *and* a Cabriolet so pretty much every regular maintenance item is due at the same time. The suspension related stuff… is that something that was recommended by Porsche or specialist? What exactly needed doing with the suspension? Yeh 2k a year feels quite high for me (for 54k miler car). Was from a specialist or Official Porsche?

Mankers said: Really difficult to predict how much either car will cost to run, particularly as they get older. There is always the chance of a big bill, something unexpected or a combination of brakes, tyres, service plus something else occurring at the same time, meaning a ‘big’ bill. I would estimate that an average of £2k pa would be more realistic, not including tax or fuel. Some years lower some higher. You might get lucky, or stumble across a car that has everything done (brakes, tyres, condensers, rads, suspension, major service)….. Have you driven the 991 yet? Some don’t like the electric steering or manual box vs the 997 variant. Happy hunting! Yeh not driven either yet tbh. I’m just waiting to have funds ready - still a good few months away, there’s a great 991 currently up for a sale. I know everyone says the 997 is a superior fun car, but I think I’d prefer to have the daily ability and better fuel economy of 991. I’ve got an M2 at mo, and just feels so much better to go for a blast and not be concerned about fuel, and daily it regardless. That’s probably the main reason I’m leaning towards a 991.

Bp8575 said: 997.2 3.6 comes in at tax band K which is £360 a year currently The 3.6 engine is sweet. Bought mine in 2010 and did 5K miles per year for three years in it.

I bought my 2012 991c2s PDK in August 2017 on 20k miles, now on 93k. I get it serviced by Porsche and run it under their warranty scheme. It’s my daily car and do a round trip of 40 miles to work so gets warmed up everyday rather than sat in traffic, so I guess that’s good for the car. For any work not covered by the warranty I take it to a local independent, brakes, tyres etc. Service intervals are 2 years or 20k so for me that’s every 18 months, small services are £500 and big service £1000. I’ve had one breakdown in that time and that was just limp mode, the high pressure fuel pump failed, spare part was on back order and took 6 weeks to arrive, Porsche recovered the car and provided a loaner for the whole period. Other warranty claims have been sports exhaust solenoids have been replaced twice, heater fan been replaced once, two wheel bearings replaced, and both coffin arms. All under warranty. At 63k the indi did discs and pads all round at £1500 (genuine parts) and change the oil and filter every 10k £200. Tyres, cup 2s are £1k from black circles and seem to last around 20000 miles. I also bought a set of alloys with winters on for £1200 and use these for Dec and Jan. All in over the 5 and a half years I reckon £3k a year covers it easily. In hindsight without the warranty and using an indi to do the work, £2k would have covered it, but I like the comfort of knowing what my bills are going to be. Fuel is 95 Ron and does 28mpg long term average, 30-32 on a run and 20mpg when you’re pushing on.

Maxym said: The 3.6 engine is sweet. Bought mine in 2010 and did 5K miles per year for three years in it. I'd definitely agree, loved mine. Manual, PSE, PASM 3.6, a brilliant car and I certainly didn't feel short changed compared to a 3.8S. Nearly half the vehicle tax was a welcome bonus Ran it for 4 years, 26k miles, averaged 25 mpg, on a European run it did 30+ easily even with some spirited stints. Servicing every 20k miles makes them relatively cheap to own. Get a good local independent to service them as OPC's simply are not worth using for this age of car IMO.. PASM & PSE were a must with the 3.6 for me, the standard suspension leaves quite a gap in the arches and the PASM with the 20mm drop looks just right. PSE or an after market exhaust change the character of the car and make if feel much more sporty. Great cars! Enough old school vibe with a smattering of modernity. I'd have another for sure. Edited by MrVert on Thursday 5th January 09:32

shuebc said: Ah didn’t know that. So I’m guessing the 3.8 gen 2s are the £650 band Yes.

shuebc said: Ah didn’t know that. So I’m guessing the 3.8 gen 2s are the £650 band Taxed my .2 C4S last week, it was £615.

shuebc said: The suspension related stuff… is that something that was recommended by Porsche or specialist? What exactly needed doing with the suspension? Yeh 2k a year feels quite high for me (for 54k miler car). Was from a specialist or Official Porsche? Specialist. Usual stuff at this mileage, coffin arms, track rods, top mounts, geometry. To be fair now that I looked it up, that bill had some other stuff like tandem pump and one of the horns needed replacing. Seeing as most 997.2s will be around 12yo you can save a bit if you get one that has had the big service done. At very low mileage like 20-25k it probably won't need much done for a good while. At 40-50k if it's not had suspension, brakes and so on, you will have some large bills. If I was budget conscious I'd aim for one at 50-60k miles that's been well looked after and has had the expensive maintenance done.

shuebc said: Yeh 2k a year feels quite high for me (for 54k miler car). From years of hanging out here I'd say £2k a year is a typical minimum average (some years lower, some higher) that you need to be prepared to spend, and that's on 911s of any generation in good condition with regular usage. And that's dodging an engine rebuild, or paint/body resto on old cars, or regular track use. For newer cars it would include renewing the Porsche warranty.

I realise we are driving high performance sports cars with the 997 and 991 but... my 2004 VW Beetle 2.0i 115 bhp is a year older than my 997 and in the last 10 years i have thrashed it and abused it , leant it to friends, transported work related building materials around in it and driven it across continent, the original factory air con is still ice cold, it uses a litre of oil every 2000 miles and no coolant, has never been serviced, is totally unloved, has zero rust and everything inc remote works perfectly. My 997.1 on the other hand is pampered and has a failure rate over the same time period long enough to qualify as a basket case. Can anyone offer an opinion why my 997 is so failure prone and my 964 , aside from its weepy engine only needed services and tyres over 10 years of thrashing.??

magic Monkey Dust said: I realise we are driving high performance sports cars with the 997 and 991 but... my 2004 VW Beetle 2.0i 115 bhp is a year older than my 997 and in the last 10 years i have thrashed it and abused it , leant it to friends, transported work related building materials around in it and driven it across continent, the original factory air con is still ice cold, it uses a litre of oil every 2000 miles and no coolant, has never been serviced, is totally unloved, has zero rust and everything inc remote works perfectly. My 997.1 on the other hand is pampered and has a failure rate over the same time period long enough to qualify as a basket case. Can anyone offer an opinion why my 997 is so failure prone and my 964 , aside from its weepy engine only needed services and tyres over 10 years of thrashing.?? What failures have you had?

Bore score at 94k regas of air con window regulators both sides Sill mounted aircon pipes sill mounted brake pipes coolant pipes crossing car front to back twice aircon radiators twice porsche sports exhaust rotted out sat nav pccm plus consumables like tyres and services i expected. The Beetle simply has passed its MOT's without an issue over same time frame and many many many more miles.

magic Monkey Dust said: Bore score at 94k regas of air con window regulators both sides Sill mounted aircon pipes sill mounted brake pipes coolant pipes crossing car front to back twice aircon radiators twice porsche sports exhaust rotted out sat nav pccm plus consumables like tyres and services i expected. The Beetle simply has passed its MOT's without an issue over same time frame and many many many more miles. With 997s - bore scoring is a known issue - I think the guys at Hartech say it's a not a case of IF, but when. As for everything else... my guess would be enthusiast car brands or models know that any issues that do occur, the owner will most likely get round to fixing it, meaning more money in their pockets for parts as well as labour... vs standard cars, which are probably driven by people who dont care too much about car ownership. Its probably more beneficial to have those cars not require as much maintenance and benefits the used car market more. Just my guess..