ever had doubts about Porsches? - Page 2 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Prepare for the flak.

Yeah, I bet the guys who make that brake caliper machine are in for some trouble...

C'mon chaps you are being unreasonable. Bennno's T350 has been perfectly reliable, and alt's Tamora has been fine. Flasher's T350 could be a one off. And so could Chris's Tamora. I'd just like to know where the roulette wheel fits into the production line

Dom

I haven't owned a TVR due to much the same sentiment, however charismatic the cars undoubtedly are. However it's apples / oranges here since the new speed 6 engines are exactly that - new designs. Comparing the reliability of the motor with the 993 engine, which has decades of development by a much bigger company behind it, is pretty unfair to TVR. I do remember rumours about unexpected grenading of the first water-cooled boxster and 996 engines, with subsequent hush-ups by Porsche. There doesn't seem to be any substitute for development where engines are concerned, though I am no engineer... I drove a T350C yesterday and however great it looked, it felt agricultural. Reminded me of the Triumph GT6 though - not a bad thing!

Autocar, 26 March 2003, cheap fast cars, £20k and over section: "Last of the over-engineered Porsches, last of the air-cooled cars and already a legend. Blend of speed, tactile thrills, and reliability still a match for any car on sale. Smaller than the current version; easier to thread down B-roads and better built. Strong residuals and Porsche's age-related servicing menu keep it relatively cheap to run. The only problem is, once you've owned a 993, nothing else will do. " 'Nuff said. VS

Just to add my twopenneth. Over the past four years I have owned a Chim 400, followed by a Cerbie 6 and latterly a Tuscan. The Chim was fairly reliable i.e. only niggles, the cerbie 6 which I bought as a six month old demo car had three engines in 11 months (and 9000 miles). I fell in love with the Tuscan's looks and assumed that the S6's engine problems would have been ironed out by Jan 2001 and took the plunge and bought a new one. Bearing in mind the car cost £42k, the build quality was appalling, i.e. sqeaks/rattles, trim falling off and whilst the engine didn't require major surgery it went out of tune every 1000 miles or so, necessitating a trip to the dealers for warranty work at least every month. In the end after 11 months I had totally lost confidence with the car and ended up taking a £12k loss just to get rid. I now drive a 2000 996 C2, which whilst not as raw/exciting or as drop dead gorgeous as the Tuscan is ten times better 95% of the time. My point is that there is no excuse for poor quality and I fear that there will come a point when the majority of TVR's customers realise that there is a lot of quality and exciting new or nearly new motors that can be bought for £40k, without the trauma of TVR ownership - this is now being reflected in their poor residuals. Owning a TVR was my childhood dream - I lived 300 yards from the TVR factory for 17 years !. I was fortunate enough to realise that dream, I persevered and would love a T350 but never again !

I know of 993 engines that have grenaded, and everyone knows that there are the odd problem with Porsches. Whilst carefully trying to keep this thread along the lines of a more interesting/sophisticated TVR vs Porsche comparison than normal (lest I would have locked it), the big problem with Tivs doesn't seem to be build quality... it's build CONSISTENCY. I'm sure many hand built poroducts are similarly affected, but only this can explain why TVR owners are so militant when the reliability card is played... the fact is, for some, TVRs are beautifully reliable and a treasure to own. But like I mentioned with the roulette wheel earlier, what proportion peaches to lemons? If I was getting a new TVR, I would pay a friendly tech to go over the car with a fine tooth comb and rebuild as necessary. It may cost an extra 15k on top but it would be worth it. To be honest, the prospect of a Tuscan with a BMW M3 vanos straight six, Stack instrument pod and sensible window switches appeals. I'd give the other bits back to the factory

An interesting debate...I'll add my experiences. I had a TVR Griff 500 for a couple of years which was a lot of fun and luckily reliable - however, I put this down to the fact that it had the old Rover V8 and being a 1998 model was better built than earlier cars. Personally I couldn't justify spending £50k on a Tuscan when a 996 is only £5k more - no comparison in my opinion. However, in the sub £30k bracket TVR's offer good value for money and a lot of fun if you don't mind a few niggles. Its amazing how poor the build is on some expensive cars. I own an early Diablo and for a car that was £150k new its has very poor build (worse even than the Countach I had before). I think they must have traded on the name here. I'n now chopping this in for a new GT3 which represents fantastic value for money IMHO. Why would anyone spend the same money on a Tuscan R is beyond me, as it would lose £20k as soon as you picked it up. This will be my first Porsche - having visited the showroom I was stunned at the quality of the products. I just think they are unbeatable at any price.

OK, I admit it, I thought I'd post a teaser to generate a bit of life... Hmmm not too much reaction but then this is the Porsche forum. Perhaps I should try one of the TVR forums ? Non ? perhaps not. I did read that particular post with horror though. Of course any product can go wrong, eg wiring looms, DMEs etc, but what bothered me especially about this chap's story was the lack of support he got from the manufacturer/dealer. Gulp.

OK, I'll bite. Well not really. I've owned 3 TVR's, all Cerberas. In 50,000 miles I've had one breakdown which was resolved by AA in 20 minutes (broken throttle cable bracket!). Zero returns to factory. I've always gone for the AJP8 as I felt after years in the Tuscan Challenge it ought to be reasonably sorted. This assumption seems to have paid off. From new there are a few niggles that need sorting but for something that has been built by hand this doesn't surprise or bother me. Beyond that they've been fairly straight forward to own. Also I just got 75% of the original purchase price back on my 2 year old Cerbera. I couldn't class that as bad depreciation!! A friend owns a Boxster S. I think the car is great and on a recent track day found it to be huge fun. At another track event I got talking to a guy with a 2002 911 Turbo (excuse my using the wrong number is it 996?!) Fantastic car but he wouldn't drive it with the computer stability/traction stuff switched off! He admitted to me that the thought of driving the Cerbera on circuit without traction control or ABS was scary. I have a LOT of respect for Porsches but for me they are too good! Sounds daft I know but I like the fact that I have to work at getting the best out of my Cerbera. Now watch my 2 week old Cerbera breakdown on me this weekend in spectacular fashion!!

Yup, it's a 996. The rawness is definitely an attraction to some. Mastering a car can be the challenge. Good luck with the Cerby this weekend. Sounds like you've had some good ones (you're not related to Peter Wheeler are you? ) Cheers Dom

Unfortunately it's been done to death many times. I'm sure we all know cars of any make that have been a nightmare: M5 engines, Lancia/Fiat corrosion or electrics, 360F1 clutches.... The great thing about a like-minded group of people as on this forum is that everyone looks for something different from their cars: TVRs are for some, Porsches for others. I'll let you know when something drops off my Porker estate and I have to use the Cerbera instead.

- Dom - back of the net again mate, second only to the Roulette comment

And whilst I'm here..... What is the most common question that you Porker guys get asked when someone comes to admire your car in the petrol station? Obviously for the TVR crew it is: "Isn't it unreliable?". Oh sorry, I forgot: no-one feels suitable emotive to want to come over and talk about yours....

"Do you have a small penis?" Or maybe that was just me

Only those in the know

I tend to get attractive young ladies coming over to say what a lovely colour it is. And no, i'm not kidding! VS Viola Metallic wide body 993. Gotta love the "fat ass".

Jeremy's previous point really emphasised that it's about Quality Consistency with TVRs... as much as I'd like to rib him about Y158 MPH, it has performed faultlessly from a reliability point of view. A peach, if you like. However, TVR tend to use their warranty as a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card, and rely on it too heavily. You never expect to use a warranty when you buy a Sony TV, but people renew them religiously on Tivs, perhaps because the factory would rather have a problem later on for themsleves and their dealers, rather than invest a bit more care earlier on in the build process? ie 'not our problem once it's out of the gates, and if it comes back, we'll deal with it' >> Edited by domster (moderator) on Friday 28th March 15:46

Oi! That's Y159MPH to you, sonny! It is only mere 996 C2's that registered 158. The point about consistency is a good one, but I suspect also that TVRs require a bit more looking after than Porkers: warming them up properly, using them regularly etc. and so some of the problems and failures that are reported my be down to the way in which they are used. I have a sneaking suspicion that there are more peaches than lemons, its just that we only hear of the bad-uns (much more interesting to hear of drama than "my Cerbera is still running perfectly..."). >> Edited by jeremyc on Friday 28th March 16:10

As you say jeremyc it's horses for courses with Tivs and Porsches. I can assure you I only posted this out of suprise at that particular chap's horror story, and perhaps some slight sense of mischeviousness. I like your comment on the reaction of the general public to our cars. Illuminating. Since owning mine I've had one instance of the coffee bean shake gesture directed at me (even though said to55er's girlfriend shouted something far more complementary !) and mostly complementary comments. One BoB shouted 'Nice car Mister' at me in the street - reeespekk man (or whatever). The first chat I had, actually on a garage forecourt, was about reliability believe it or not. So there you go perhaps its not all one sided. Most comments from friends are along the lines of - are you rich (nope!), how fast does it go (guess), and does it drink petrol ? What about the rest of you lot then ?

very true jeremy, I've been monitoring the threads recently to get a 'feel' for how the later S6 engines are bearing up and I think the horror stories are diminishing somewhat. FWIW my Griff has been with me for 18 months now and has been a reliable companion, comments range from "crap car mate" from a drunk in Cambridge to "A Griff! they're still the guvnor"

'Is this your car, sir?' Must be in the top five

I've had, from an old duffer to his wife "see that Porsche over there dear"

I think it's much about how the cars are driven. Whilst Porsches are ususally everyday cars, many TVR's are only driven on dry, sunny days (and unfortunatly there aren't that many neither in the UK nor in Switzerland). Normally a regulary driven car should automatically be more reliable. I used to have a 993 Porsche Targa as a weekend car and it was a total nightmare ( Two engine-breakdowns, electricity problems and so on). I never had problems with my TVR because I use it as an everyday car and doing all the inspections. I'm now planning to have a new sports car and I deceided to have a Chimaera instead of a Porsche simply because the Chim has more flair and spirit in my opinion. Btw. I'm not sure, but I think Porsche needed some knowhow and technology from Toyota engineers to make the 996 engine more reliable....

no problem from my 996 engine. 8500 miles and counting, although nothing wrong with wifes nissan 27k and counting.

Update: as of yesterday at Bruntingthorpe make that Y164MPH. At this rate of improvement I should hit 200mph on my ninth visit - sometime around 2008. Mind you, my 'Blackpool Golden Miles Per Hour' meter was reading 175mph at the time. Photographic evidence to follow....

Well done Jezza I take it you pegged back the wing mirrors this time, pumped the wheels up to 50psi, ditched the iguana for weight purposes and went awol with the baby oil on the body (car not Alex )... I'd love to know which hill the TVR boys use for their top speed runs

Would have been faster if it wasn't for them pesky passengers - I seem to pick up a new one each time round (I did six runs in all ). TAXI! Not sure they need a hill - just a longer piece of road than Bruntingthorpe provides: I was still accelerating through the speed trap. >> Edited by jeremyc on Monday 31st March 09:57

Try reading this tale of woe and misery - www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=33033&f=23&h=0 My God how can a company that makes things so badly and for a hefty price still be in business ? I'll never moan again about things going wrong on my 993. (of course I reserve the right to do exactly this... but it sounds good)