Manthey 992 GT3 from OPC - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi All What's the view on the Manthey Program from OPC. Anyone had the kit fitted to their 992. I see Chester has two cars for sale, but interested to hear what an owner who has experience of the kit has to say. I've seen Harris' vid on it, but interested to hear what the real world experience is

Personally if I was going to get a Manthey kit fitted I’d be looking at RPM….clearly depends on the individual OPC but whether they would set your car up as well as RPM I am not sure…I’d guess that RPM also have a lot more experience of fitting the kit too.

All Manthey kits make any Porsche much easier to drive harder and faster on track. The kit instills complete confidence to drive the car at the very limit. I have been around Donny in a 991.2GT3 RS with MT kit straight after mine in standard form and the transformation is night and day IMO. However its very expensive for what you get and only really worth it to someone who does a lot of trackdays otherwise its better to keep the car standard and just get a nice geo.

RPM or JZM to fit it as I think that OEM technicians lack the experience and expertise to get the car set up to your liking just like Cheib said. All IMHO of course.

Who fits all that stuff and then flogs it with less than 2k miles on it bearing in mind it's about a thousand miles to run it in properly !!

Far Cough said: Who fits all that stuff and then flogs it with less than 2k miles on it bearing in mind it's about a thousand miles to run it in properly !! In this case, it might have been done directly by the OPC, or might have been done by customer in partnership with OPC as part of a deal for another car… think of it like buying the watch lol. OPC would like to have at least one of these cars around or as a showcase for them. I had been in discussion with my OPC about doing this on a used 992 GT3 to help them showcase, but it is super expensive In terms of actually doing it…. Fitting at OPC would be fine and probably preferable from warranty and OPC pOv, as they get the full business. They have received full guidance from MR and use the official MR measuring equipment. Porsche will provide ‘paint by numbers’ set up sheet for OPC to follow. I know directly that RPM and JZM have been working hard with Porsche to allow them to fit the kits, and for the warranties to carry over. They are getting there. The challenge will come when you want to go beyond Porsche settings… just like with any geo. So then, if you’ve fitted at OPC and need further geo… you’ll end up paying for that at least twice, if you then go to Indy. First 10mins of this vid give a good explanation… direct from Michael Grassl at Manthey. Edited by TDT on Sunday 9th April 16:37

Taffy66 said: All Manthey kits make any Porsche much easier to drive harder and faster on track. The kit instills complete confidence to drive the car at the very limit. I have been around Donny in a 991.2GT3 RS with MT kit straight after mine in standard form and the transformation is night and day IMO. You Wales answer to Gavin Kershaw? I'm interested in how it's easier to drive harder and faster on track, and how the kit instills complete confidence to drive the car at the very limit? Night and day transformation how so? TIA.

993rsr said: You Wales answer to Gavin Kershaw? I'm interested in how it's easier to drive harder and faster on track, and how the kit instills complete confidence to drive the car at the very limit? Night and day transformation how so? TIA. I thought it transformed the 991.2GT3 RS on track based in my admittedly limited experience. I also had laps with TDT at Oulton in March in his 718GT4 MR the same day I had my standard 718GT4 there and the difference is night and day. Might not apply to the 992GT3 MR but does transform both the 991.2GT3 RS and 718GT4 IMO.

To clarify I just mean the Manthey dampers and no idea about how the aero helps to be honest.

Taffy66 said: To clarify I just mean the Manthey dampers and no idea about how the aero helps to be honest. I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability. The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not.

993rsr said: I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability. The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not. You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver.

Taffy66 said: 993rsr said: I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability. The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not. You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver. I think one has to be careful of the placebo affect with some of these mods. It's impossible without empirical lap time data to make accurate comparisons. A well set up GT car on OEM dampers vs. a well set up GT car on KW etc. will feel very similar, albeit quicker with the modified cars in the hands of a pro like TH rather than track day warriors like us. For all but the quickest track day drivers, adding more sophisticated dampers will not IMO improve lap times on a like for like geo set up. Proper tuition will be the biggest benefit. I've got a couple of days with Mike Wilds renting Hethel to get some tuition.

993rsr said: Taffy66 said: 993rsr said: I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability. The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not. You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver. I think one has to be careful of the placebo affect with some of these mods. It's impossible without empirical lap time data to make accurate comparisons. A well set up GT car on OEM dampers vs. a well set up GT car on KW etc. will feel very similar, albeit quicker with the modified cars in the hands of a pro like TH rather than track day warriors like us. For all but the quickest track day drivers, adding more sophisticated dampers will not IMO improve lap times on a like for like geo set up. Proper tuition will be the biggest benefit. I've got a couple of days with Mike Wilds renting Hethel to get some tuition. Is that to get yer own back after the close one at silverstone a couple of years back at the end of wellington straight ;) I find it astounding that folk need to put bespoke marketing hype components onto one of the best cars out there,factory standard with a good set up will inspire confidence and once you can rinse the s t out of it,then look for improvements.Think about moving onto slicks,or buy a cup car which will make a standard car feel like a boat.

Yellow491 said: 993rsr said: Taffy66 said: 993rsr said: I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability. The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not. You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver. I think one has to be careful of the placebo affect with some of these mods. It's impossible without empirical lap time data to make accurate comparisons. A well set up GT car on OEM dampers vs. a well set up GT car on KW etc. will feel very similar, albeit quicker with the modified cars in the hands of a pro like TH rather than track day warriors like us. For all but the quickest track day drivers, adding more sophisticated dampers will not IMO improve lap times on a like for like geo set up. Proper tuition will be the biggest benefit. I've got a couple of days with Mike Wilds renting Hethel to get some tuition. Is that to get yer own back after the close one at silverstone a couple of years back at the end of wellington straight ;) I find it astounding that folk need to put bespoke marketing hype components onto one of the best cars out there,factory standard with a good set up will inspire confidence and once you can rinse the s t out of it,then look for improvements.Think about moving onto slicks,or buy a cup car which will make a standard car feel like a boat. The Welly Straight incident You are spot on mate with your comments.

993rsr said: Taffy66 said: 993rsr said: I would think - and I'm not meaning this to be inflammatory - it's more to do with the delta in driver ability. The dampers give an incremental improvement over OEM. After running the OEM Sachs on my CGT since I had it, I changed to KW early last year. It's improved the car in all aspect on the road and track, but night and day it is not. You could well be correct as I'm expressing an opinion from someone who has only been doing track days for a few years. For my level of ability the MR dampers keep the car so well under control it felt much safer to push hard which increases confidence but perhaps not so much for a high end racing driver. I think one has to be careful of the placebo affect with some of these mods. It's impossible without empirical lap time data to make accurate comparisons. A well set up GT car on OEM dampers vs. a well set up GT car on KW etc. will feel very similar, albeit quicker with the modified cars in the hands of a pro like TH rather than track day warriors like us. For all but the quickest track day drivers, adding more sophisticated dampers will not IMO improve lap times on a like for like geo set up. Proper tuition will be the biggest benefit. I've got a couple of days with Mike Wilds renting Hethel to get some tuition. I think these is enough room here for the typical consultants answer of: ‘it depends’ Proper tuition, seat time and improvement of the soft bit behind the steering wheel do yield the biggest gain. No doubt about it. There is much more to be gained from improving the driver, than mods, and it’s much cheaper too… as some of these bits are irrationally expensive. But I would say IME, that a better controlled car from a chassis poV, does give me more confidence to push myself harder and lean on the car more. I know there are people that are much quicker than me running round with 100% standard cars… but I do also think they are fighting the car a lot more than I would be to get there. So it’s not just the empirical time… sometimes it’s how you achieve it. I would also argue that changing out components like the dampers change the car to greater or lesser degree depending on the car. For a GT4 with McPherson struts all around…. I think it had a larger effect - for one spring rates are changed, the internal valving rates of the dampers are changed and the strength of the damper body itself is increased. These cars put a lot of load even laterally through the damper body so the result of a ‘better built’ part can be felt. On the other end of the equation, with the CGT… it was already running a motorsport OEM spec damper at the end of a fully double wishbones, push rod suspension fixed to a carbon tub. So maybe changing out the damper here, that only needs to move in one plane doesn’t have such a dramatic or immediate effect? I’m only supposing. For 992 GT3 the sport auto guys acheived an N’ring lap time about 5 secs slower than Lars Kern, stock Vs stock. When the MR kit was bolted on… both Porsche and then sport auto improved by the same amount… c4.secs… but the delta between them remained. Sport auto said they just had confidence to push harder, but acknowledged that the driver is still the major factor, as their time in the MR car only matched Lars lap in the 100% standard car. Apparently there is a lap from Kevin Estre in the 992 GT3MR that is another 8.7secs quicker…6m50.7…. which will never see the light of day… because that’s 992 RS territory. Edited by TDT on Sunday 9th April 21:19

The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description. Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts. I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap!

My friend has a 996gt3 RS and a 997 GT3 RS but his 4.2 Manthey is something very special according to him and he has spent an awful lot of time on track. Flemke had the car built iirc.

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Applause said: The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description. Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts. I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap! I wonder how much of the £50k you would get back in a year or two. Based on previous listings and sales I'd say a high spec 09/22 low mileage GT3 like the silver one (PCCB, club, carbon roof, matrix etc) would have already sold for around the £200k mark, so the package is hurting the sale - it has been for sale since ~November - one of the longest listed OPC cars. By the way, the photos do show the aero discs and the PH listing description includes the suspension upgrades.

Applause said: The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description. Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts. I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap! Wheels and aero discs are optional extras on the kit. I don’t think there is a debate that tuition makes you quicker. It’s a disingenuous argument anyway.. as by that rationale, most people on here shouldn’t be driving anything more capable than a Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus, let along any Porsche sports car. That’s what Rob Wilson uses Vauxhall Astra to coach F1 drivers so maybe we should all save money and go back to those… but that’s not gonna happen is it?!… ergo whilst logically rational and reductive, it’s a ridiculous statement.

The difference between a fast road car such as a GT4, and the equivalent race car, in this case a GT4 Clubsport MR, is just day and night. The race car is between 4-5 sec faster per minute. For example the GT4 CS MR laps Silverstone National (only four corners) in around 58 sec while the GT4 road car would take 1:02.5, like for like (same day, same professional driver). Most of the difference is due to the slicks, plus brakes, suspension, and aero. But slicks make the biggest difference. In the race car on slicks, even when you set ABS at 1/10, ie least intrusive, unless you activate ABS in every hard breaking zone, you did not break late enough and hard enough.

TDT said: I would also argue that changing out components like the dampers change the car to greater or lesser degree depending on the car. For a GT4 with McPherson struts all around…. I think it had a larger effect - for one spring rates are changed, the internal valving rates of the dampers are changed and the strength of the damper body itself is increased. These cars put a lot of load even laterally through the damper body so the result of a ‘better built’ part can be felt. Ah but then in this case is it the spring change (firmer spring usually, potentially much firmer; almost certainly linear springs as per most motorsport application compared to OEM springs which are progressive) as compared to damper change alone ...? While I'd tend to agree with you on the 'it depends' bit, as 993rsr says, there's also a pretty strong placebo effect to over credit (expensive) kit upgrades with quite fantastical capability improvement as well. Where I do have to disagree (however unwisely given my vast inferiority in driving ability) with him is that I think for pro or close to pro level drivers, the difference to OEM is actually smaller in potential laptime compared to the typical trackday warrior like us (or me anyway!) because the better damped car provides more confidence even if misplaced to a less capable driver to try to get further into the car's window of capability. A pro level driver would get say Xs laptime in OEM and maybe X-0.5s in the MR car. A less capable driver would be perhaps X+4s on OEM but X+2.5s on the MR car.

TDT said: In this case, it might have been done directly by the OPC, or might have been done by customer in partnership with OPC as part of a deal for another car… think of it like buying the watch lol. OPC would like to have at least one of these cars around or as a showcase for them. I had been in discussion with my OPC about doing this on a used 992 GT3 to help them showcase, but it is super expensive In terms of actually doing it…. Fitting at OPC would be fine and probably preferable from warranty and OPC pOv, as they get the full business. They have received full guidance from MR and use the official MR measuring equipment. Porsche will provide ‘paint by numbers’ set up sheet for OPC to follow. I know directly that RPM and JZM have been working hard with Porsche to allow them to fit the kits, and for the warranties to carry over. They are getting there. The challenge will come when you want to go beyond Porsche settings… just like with any geo. So then, if you’ve fitted at OPC and need further geo… you’ll end up paying for that at least twice, if you then go to Indy. First 10mins of this vid give a good explanation… direct from Michael Grassl at Manthey. Edited by TDT on Sunday 9th April 16:37 All understood .... Is using an OPC that much more exy than say RPM ?

TDT said: Applause said: The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description. Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts. I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap! Wheels and aero discs are optional extras on the kit. I don’t think there is a debate that tuition makes you quicker. It’s a disingenuous argument anyway.. as by that rationale, most people on here shouldn’t be driving anything more capable than a Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus, let along any Porsche sports car. That’s what Rob Wilson uses Vauxhall Astra to coach F1 drivers so maybe we should all save money and go back to those… but that’s not gonna happen is it?!… ergo whilst logically rational and reductive, it’s a ridiculous statement. Ridiculous perhaps, but the reason I have a 997 and not a 991.

TDT said: Wheels and aero discs are optional extras on the kit. I don’t think there is a debate that tuition makes you quicker. It’s a disingenuous argument anyway.. as by that rationale, most people on here shouldn’t be driving anything more capable than a Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus, let along any Porsche sports car. That’s what Rob Wilson uses Vauxhall Astra to coach F1 drivers so maybe we should all save money and go back to those… but that’s not gonna happen is it?!… ergo whilst logically rational and reductive, it’s a ridiculous statement. Rob and his Vauxhall has nothing to do with the debate as he is teaching techniques like preloading the steering,brakes,transitioning etc,great coach he is. Porsche spend a fortune on R&D with true pro engineer drivers such as leib etc,why try and reinvent the wheel.Just get a trailer and put some slicks on,that will highlight any short comings in your car and driver,50k is just plane daft imo and those wheel discs ffs!

Yellow491 said: Rob and his Vauxhall has nothing to do with the debate as he is teaching techniques like preloading the steering,brakes,transitioning etc,great coach he is. Porsche spend a fortune on R&D with true pro engineer drivers such as leib etc,why try and reinvent the wheel.Just get a trailer and put some slicks on,that will highlight any short comings in your car and driver,50k is just plane daft imo and those wheel discs ffs! You could then argue that spending £100k plus on a risky hobby like track days is daft. When I spoke to T H last year about the Manthey packs he told me that the most important component by far was the higher quality 3/4 ways Manthey KW dampers. All the fancy aero stuff is mostly fluff to make the car look the business but adds hardly anything to make the car better for track use. None of these are racing cars by a long shot but having superior damping through proper high quality 3/4 way fixed dampers does tie the car down nicely and gives more confidence for amateur track day hobbyists such as myself to push harder. All IMVHO as a very green average track day driver.

Taffy66 said: Yellow491 said: Rob and his Vauxhall has nothing to do with the debate as he is teaching techniques like preloading the steering,brakes,transitioning etc,great coach he is. Porsche spend a fortune on R&D with true pro engineer drivers such as leib etc,why try and reinvent the wheel.Just get a trailer and put some slicks on,that will highlight any short comings in your car and driver,50k is just plane daft imo and those wheel discs ffs! You could then argue that spending £100k plus on a risky hobby like track days is daft. When I spoke to T H last year about the Manthey packs he told me that the most important component by far was the higher quality 3/4 ways Manthey KW dampers. All the fancy aero stuff is mostly fluff to make the car look the business but adds hardly anything to make the car better for track use. None of these are racing cars by a long shot but having superior damping through proper high quality 3/4 way fixed dampers does tie the car down nicely and gives more confidence for amateur track day hobbyists such as myself to push harder. All IMVHO as a very green average track day driver. Better dampers out there than kw,3 or 4 way you need to know what you are doing to set up correctly,and then set up per track and tyres etc,its goes on and on,thats why standard is better you know what you have and will be predictable if set up correctly to enjoy a day playing.

Yellow491 said: TDT said: Wheels and aero discs are optional extras on the kit. I don’t think there is a debate that tuition makes you quicker. It’s a disingenuous argument anyway.. as by that rationale, most people on here shouldn’t be driving anything more capable than a Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus, let along any Porsche sports car. That’s what Rob Wilson uses Vauxhall Astra to coach F1 drivers so maybe we should all save money and go back to those… but that’s not gonna happen is it?!… ergo whilst logically rational and reductive, it’s a ridiculous statement. Rob and his Vauxhall has nothing to do with the debate as he is teaching techniques like preloading the steering,brakes,transitioning etc,great coach he is. Porsche spend a fortune on R&D with true pro engineer drivers such as leib etc,why try and reinvent the wheel.Just get a trailer and put some slicks on,that will highlight any short comings in your car and driver,50k is just plane daft imo and those wheel discs ffs! The point I was trying to make about Rob and the Vauxhall… was more that, I’m sure there are drivers that could go round a circuit faster and cleaner in that, than many of us do in our rolling investment pieces... but that fact, doesn’t stop us from going out and spending our hard-earned on whatever we fancy. It’s not all necessarily about boiling every argument down to it rationale conclusion, or else none of us would be in these cars. Different strokes and all that…. I do agree the pricing for some of this stuff is ‘questionable’, i’m not defending it. But it’s a matter of relativity…. There is someone always willing to pay… • If it might curry favour with an OPC for the next new shiny… alternative to losing money on the 2x Cayennes and 2x Macans and a Taycan, or the watch, that you didn’t want. •Or if you wanted a manual 992 RS…. This is the only thing close… as they aren’t building those… written on 10/04/2023! Lol. Edited by TDT on Monday 10th April 10:04

Taffy66 said: Yellow491 said: None of these are racing cars by a long shot but having superior damping through proper high quality 3/4 way fixed dampers does tie the car down nicely and gives more confidence for amateur track day hobbyists such as myself to push harder. All IMVHO as a very green average track day driver. Unless you are at the limit, or in fact beyond it, you are not pushing the capabilities of the OEM suspension. It's a placebo affect unless ^ is happening. Edited by 993rsr on Monday 10th April 10:18

993rsr said: Unless you are at the limit, or in fact beyond it, you are not pushing the capabilities of the OEM suspension. It's a placebo affect unless ^ is happening. Driver confidence (especially for 'normal' trackdays) to push a car isn't linked to the capabilities of OEM suspension though. One doesn't necessarily need to be on/over the limit to be happier with a car at varying degrees of distance from said grip limits i think. An experienced driver could almost certainly drive a badly setup (geo-wise) car much faster than a less experienced one by being much nearer the limits of what that car currently (whatever it's setup limitations) could do for example. it also wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest both drivers would still be able to say the car felt much better to drive when the geometry was properly sorted even if one was much further from the limit.

isaldiri said: 993rsr said: Unless you are at the limit, or in fact beyond it, you are not pushing the capabilities of the OEM suspension. It's a placebo affect unless ^ is happening. Driver confidence (especially for 'normal' trackdays) to push a car isn't linked to the capabilities of OEM suspension though. One doesn't necessarily need to be on/over the limit to be happier with a car at varying degrees of distance from said grip limits i think. An experienced driver could almost certainly drive a badly setup (geo-wise) car much faster than a less experienced one by being much nearer the limits of what that car currently (whatever it's setup limitations) could do for example. it also wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest both drivers would still be able to say the car felt much better to drive when the geometry was properly sorted even if one was much further from the limit. But if we were to take the example of cars set up identically (well) on OEM vs. say KW dampers? It's easy to get a good geo. my point was does an aftermarket damper vs. OEM with a like for like geo really give more confidence unless you really are leaning on the car? I'd bet only a small number driving two cars set up the same back to back would feel the difference. Lot of it is the placebo affect, I've spent xxx on xxx dampers, ergo I must be able to go faster.

993rsr said: But if we were to take the example of cars set up identically (well) on OEM vs. say KW dampers? It's easy to get a good geo. my point was does an aftermarket damper vs. OEM with a like for like geo really give more confidence unless you really are leaning on the car? I'd bet only a small number driving two cars set up the same back to back would feel the difference. Lot of it is the placebo affect, I've spent xxx on xxx dampers, ergo I must be able to go faster. Absolutely agree with the latter statement of course. It would however be rather enlightening to try that test as you suggested above though - laptime difference between a 'good' and a 'normal' driver with very similarly setup cars but one with 'upgraded' suspension. I think the slower one might see more improvement tbh (as per my earlier post with timing differentials) although it very likely (outside of bumpy tracks) wouldn't be night and day as you noted.

isaldiri said: 993rsr said: But if we were to take the example of cars set up identically (well) on OEM vs. say KW dampers? It's easy to get a good geo. my point was does an aftermarket damper vs. OEM with a like for like geo really give more confidence unless you really are leaning on the car? I'd bet only a small number driving two cars set up the same back to back would feel the difference. Lot of it is the placebo affect, I've spent xxx on xxx dampers, ergo I must be able to go faster. Absolutely agree with the latter statement of course. It would however be rather enlightening to try that test as you suggested above though - laptime difference between a 'good' and a 'normal' driver with very similarly setup cars but one with 'upgraded' suspension. I think the slower one might see more improvement tbh (as per my earlier post with timing differentials) although it very likely (outside of bumpy tracks) wouldn't be night and day as you noted. It's interesting for sure - be great to try it to get some emprical data As a yoof before track days were ubiquitious spent a lot of time doing limit handling training and also road craft with a guy who was at the time the most highly qualified instuctor in the UK. This was a really good 'craft' to learn giving you a great foundation for what the car did before, at and beyond the limit without any nasty barriers or other cars to hit. A lot of the desire now a days is to add more tech to go faster, where in fact you should start off going slower (no Cup 2 back then).

My experience is that standard cars can achieve very fast lap times but in a less "controlled by the driver" way. The suspension "winds up" far more, the PSM and torque vectoring systems are working far harder ... and because of this there is far less learning in the process. It is also far more expensive on consumables ...

993rsr said: It's interesting for sure - be great to try it to get some emprical data As a yoof before track days were ubiquitious spent a lot of time doing limit handling training and also road craft with a guy who was at the time the most highly qualified instuctor in the UK. This was a really good 'craft' to learn giving you a great foundation for what the car did before, at and beyond the limit without any nasty barriers or other cars to hit. A lot of the desire now a days is to add more tech to go faster, where in fact you should start off going slower (no Cup 2 back then). Definitely agreed on doing the limit handling stuff and the modern way being adding tech to go faster.....but I don't know if it's worse that i have been ignoring both of those by mainly using spare time for clowning on track and doing car upgrades of late.... fwiw i have some (patchy) data at Silverstone on the 997 - the issue obviously is I have sufficient variation in my times on a given day nevermind between different days where I swear blind (and on this at least lasource will agree with me) the track is a fair bit faster/slower sometimes. Very similar setup between OEM and tractives (bit less camber but a bit more rake) - i think timing wise there isn't a big difference in fastest possible laps but on the new stuff I'm getting those fast laps more easily across the day as compared to the odd very quick lap (for me anyway i hasten to add!) on OEM that I could do but replicating that or even getting close was tricky.

isaldiri said: Absolutely agree with the latter statement of course. It would however be rather enlightening to try that test as you suggested above though - laptime difference between a 'good' and a 'normal' driver with very similarly setup cars but one with 'upgraded' suspension. I think the slower one might see more improvement tbh (as per my earlier post with timing differentials) although it very likely (outside of bumpy tracks) wouldn't be night and day as you noted. Another agreement on this. If driving a 991 or 992GT3 at around 70% of its potential, dampers, be they OE or trick 4 way adjustables, will make no difference to lap time. As others have said, the placebo effect here is huge. In competition, the improvement from a really sophisticated 4 way damper only really becomes apparent when you’re extracting the last bit of performance from the car. i.e. you need to be going very quickly to appreciate the difference…!

IREvans said: Another agreement on this. If driving a 991 or 992GT3 at around 70% of its potential, dampers, be they OE or trick 4 way adjustables, will make no difference to lap time. As others have said, the placebo effect here is huge. In competition, the improvement from a really sophisticated 4 way damper only really becomes apparent when you’re extracting the last bit of performance from the car. i.e. you need to be going very quickly to appreciate the difference…! Think we do agree on the placebo effect which is very true of course but I guess the question I'm attempting to (badly) ask is whether trick suspension allows a 'normal' non pro level driver to get to say 75-80% of the car's potential rather than only being able to get to 70% of the car's potential on OE. There would only be a slight improvement in total possible car performance from the suspension change (as per difference with a pro driver) but the greater benefit might be the driver being able to tap into more of what the car was capable of.

isaldiri said: IREvans said: Another agreement on this. If driving a 991 or 992GT3 at around 70% of its potential, dampers, be they OE or trick 4 way adjustables, will make no difference to lap time. As others have said, the placebo effect here is huge. In competition, the improvement from a really sophisticated 4 way damper only really becomes apparent when you’re extracting the last bit of performance from the car. i.e. you need to be going very quickly to appreciate the difference…! Think we do agree on the placebo effect which is very true of course but I guess the question I'm attempting to (badly) ask is whether trick suspension allows a 'normal' non pro level driver to get to say 75-80% of the car's potential rather than only being able to get to 70% of the car's potential on OE. There would only be a slight improvement in total possible car performance from the suspension change (as per difference with a pro driver) but the greater benefit might be the driver being able to tap into more of what the car was capable of. IMO, no, sure IREvans will be more erudite in his comments. I don't get the logic that aftermarket dampers somehow make it easier to go from 75% to 80% pace, it makes no sense - at least to me. Surely they are only able to offer the improvement when you are at the limit ( in terms of pace) of the OEM unit and a more sophisticated and adjustable damper can improve the lap time? Too much placebo affect

993rsr said: IMO, no, sure IREvans will be more erudite in his comments. I don't get the logic that aftermarket dampers somehow make it easier to go from 75% to 80% pace, it makes no sense - at least to me. Surely they are only able to offer the improvement when you are at the limit ( in terms of pace) of the OEM unit and a more sophisticated and adjustable damper can improve the lap time? Too much placebo affect we need to try to do that test somehow. If you know someone daft enough to lend us an OE 4.0 and allow some randoms to drive it do point him our way....

This thread is getting out of hand. There are clearly two schools of thoughts regarding whether or not better quality dampers give a relative novice confidence to push harder due to the feeling(placebo or otherwise) that the car is more under control and as a consequence more predictable to given inputs. As I've said already a few times my purely personal opinion is based on actual track driving at sometimes at or over the limit albeit from a rather hamfisted amateur. The overdriving is a mixture of poor driving from myself and the feeling that the car is moving about too much for my liking which erodes my confidence. Others on here who are obviously far superior in track driving capabilities to myself will have a different outlook which if fair enough !. Another point is we all like different things from our cars when on track, some like to slide around whilst other prefer a more solid buttoned down feeling. There are no rights and wrongs in this silly childish debate just varying opinion. None of the above applies whilst driving on public roads where the standard OEM setup and suspension is brilliant as the speeds are much much less than you achieve on track.

Taffy66 said: This thread is getting out of hand. There are clearly two schools of thoughts regarding whether or not better quality dampers give a relative novice confidence to push harder due to the feeling(placebo or otherwise) that the car is more under control and as a consequence more predictable to given inputs. As I've said already a few times my purely personal opinion is based on actual track driving at sometimes at or over the limit albeit from a rather hamfisted amateur. The overdriving is a mixture of poor driving from myself and the feeling that the car is moving about too much for my liking which erodes my confidence. Others on here who are obviously far superior in track driving capabilities to myself will have a different outlook which if fair enough !. Another point is we all like different things from our cars when on track, some like to slide around whilst other prefer a more solid buttoned down feeling. There are no rights and wrongs in this silly childish debate just varying opinion. None of the above applies whilst driving on public roads where the standard OEM setup and suspension is brilliant as the speeds are much much less than you achieve on track. It's not getting out of hand at all. It's interesting, and it's most certainly not a childish debate. It's good to have the debate, and of course to have the valuable input from IREvans as someone that we all agree, knows what he is talking about. Calling something a chidlish debate, just because the dialogue doesn't follow your remit is, at best, childish. Who knows we may all learn something. Edited by 993rsr on Monday 10th April 12:51

isaldiri said: 993rsr said: IMO, no, sure IREvans will be more erudite in his comments. I don't get the logic that aftermarket dampers somehow make it easier to go from 75% to 80% pace, it makes no sense - at least to me. Surely they are only able to offer the improvement when you are at the limit ( in terms of pace) of the OEM unit and a more sophisticated and adjustable damper can improve the lap time? Too much placebo affect we need to try to do that test somehow. If you know someone daft enough to lend us an OE 4.0 and allow some randoms to drive it do point him our way.... I may well have the very person

993rsr said: It's not getting out of hand at all. It's interesting, and it's most certainly not a childish debate. It's good to have the debate, and of course to have the valuable input from IREvans as someone that we all agree, knows what he is talking about. Calling something a chidlish debate, just because the dialogue doesn't follow your remit is, at best, childish. Who knows we may all learn something. Edited by 993rsr on Monday 10th April 12:51 I agree that I R Evans sounds like a very knowledgable chap however by his own admission he doesn't drive his Porsches on track just on public roads which as I've just said is completrely irrelevant to this very grown up debate.

I posted the Sport auto video before which shows benefit for all levels. Christian himself said he’s not a the ultimate level, but gained huge amount of confidence and could extra more from the car as he felt he could now do things with it that he said he couldn’t do before. The stuff doesn’t make the car automatically go faster… it allows the driver to feel that they can.

TDT said: I posted the Sport auto video before which shows benefit for all levels. Christian himself said he’s not a the ultimate level, but gained huge amount of confidence and could extra more from the car as he felt he could now do things with it that he said he couldn’t do before. The stuff doesn’t make the car automatically go faster… it allows the driver to feel that they can. Exactly the point I've been trying to make but from a far more qualified person than myself.

Taffy66 said: 993rsr said: It's not getting out of hand at all. It's interesting, and it's most certainly not a childish debate. It's good to have the debate, and of course to have the valuable input from IREvans as someone that we all agree, knows what he is talking about. Calling something a chidlish debate, just because the dialogue doesn't follow your remit is, at best, childish. Who knows we may all learn something. Edited by 993rsr on Monday 10th April 12:51 I agree that I R Evans sounds like a very knowledgable chap however by his own admission he doesn't drive his Porsches on track just on public roads which as I've just said is completrely irrelevant to this very grown up debate. As I said, it's an interesting discussion, which we could all learn something from, Espectially from IR Evans as he has the experience and knowledge, which is anything but irrelevent.

993rsr said: As I said, it's an interesting discussion, which we could all learn something from, Espectially from IR Evans as he has the experience and knowledge, which is anything but irrelevent. This debate is purely about driving Porsche GT sports cars on track and whether fitting some better quality MR dampers has the effect of improving a driver's confidence to push hard. It has nothing to do with times or having to drive over the limit to feel the benefits just confidence. AFAIK I R Evans has never driven any of his Porsches with or without MR dampers on track. I don't mean this in a deragatory way as I have more respect for him than most on here. Are you sure you haven't mixed him up with another Evans. Bear in mind nearly half of welsh people have the surname Evans

Taffy66 said: 993rsr said: As I said, it's an interesting discussion, which we could all learn something from, Espectially from IR Evans as he has the experience and knowledge, which is anything but irrelevent. This debate is purely about driving Porsche GT sports cars on track and whether fitting some better quality MR dampers has the effect of improving a driver's confidence to push hard. It has nothing to do with times or having to drive over the limit to feel the benefits just confidence. AFAIK I R Evans has never driven any of his Porsches with or without MR dampers on track. I don't mean this in a deragatory way as I have more respect for him than most on here. Are you sure you haven't mixed him up with another Evans. Bear in mind nearly half of welsh people have the surname Evans Nope, that's your view on what you would like the thread to be about. Don't try to derail it just because the way it's going may not align with your viewpoint. If I was you, I'd take a moment to fathom our who IR Evans is then you might not be as dismissive and might actually learn something.

TDT said: I The stuff doesn’t make the car automatically go faster… it allows the driver to feel that they can. Absolutley, extracting the very last bit of pace from the car is where (primarily down to the dampers) this comes into play.

The ‘standard’ 992 GT3 (non RS) platform is an awesome piece of kit and, in and of itself way beyond the capabilities of many amateur drivers. If anything, it seems more apt than the 991 to expose the limits and hamfistedness of drivers. I’ve had very limited PEC time driving the 991.1 GT3 and RS, but enough to know the chassis and grip, caring the RS, was above and beyond the safe, intuitive limits of my ability. Having followed a few 992 cars on track and seen how they react when owners get corner entry wrong, I doubt I’d fare better in them. So a long winded answer to the OP’s question; I tend to side with the idea of getting to grips with the standard car, before adding to it, for most. But what do I know?

Digga said: I tend to side with the idea of getting to grips with the standard car, before adding to it, for most. But what do I know? A lot

Any standard OEM setup is a compromise and even on a GT car, one skewed towards road, but Porsche do it well. That said. A lot of confidence comes from a drivers feel and perception, upgrades can and do bring confidence and possibly pace too, but for non-racing track day amateurs, it’s better to change stuff iteratively.

993rsr said: TDT said: The stuff doesn’t make the car automatically go faster… it allows the driver to feel that they can. Absolutley, extracting the very last bit of pace from the car is where (primarily down to the dampers) this comes into play. TDT's point though (I think anyway!) is that the 'extracting the very last bit of pace' isn't strictly necessary to be feeling that a driver is able to go faster. Or at least for me I associate the former bit with 'ultimate pro level competitive pace' but the latter is more an issue where each person's much more variable limit is. More confidence means someone could potentially push the car a bit nearer it's overall limits when previously one might be further away. Which I think is something one sees with the difference upgraded dampers make on the road with one far below any limit (apart from the speed limit....) where they can cope much better than OE in some cases with variable surfaces. Or that's from my side of this discussion anyway! Digga said: Any standard OEM setup is a compromise and even on a GT car, one skewed towards road, but Porsche do it well. Edited for you

993rsr said: Nope, that's your view on what you would like the thread to be about. Don't try to derail it just because the way it's going may not align with your viewpoint. If I was you, I'd take a moment to fathom our who IR Evans is then you might not be as dismissive and might actually learn something. Ooops

993rsr said: IMO, no, sure IREvans will be more erudite in his comments. I don't get the logic that aftermarket dampers somehow make it easier to go from 75% to 80% pace, it makes no sense - at least to me. Surely they are only able to offer the improvement when you are at the limit ( in terms of pace) of the OEM unit and a more sophisticated and adjustable damper can improve the lap time? Too much placebo affect Correct, aftermarket dampers do not automatically make a car lap quicker than the same car on OE dampers. The key to all of this is understanding what the car is doing, and being able to make adjustments to make it faster, or easier to drive (which invariably may lead to it being faster). Once a driver has understood how each axle of the car is behaving, and what bump and rebound adjustment is required to make it faster, then an upgraded adjustable damper will be of benefit. Up to this point, I would argue that an adjustable damper could become a hindrance, especially if it isn’t setup correctly. It reminds me of a rally we did years ago with a new Finnish driver who barely spoke a word of English, and hadn’t ever competed outside of Scandinavia. In the first test in the car which he’d never driven, he didn’t ask about tyre pressures, damper clicks or geometry, he just got in it and drove it. The rally was that weekend, and he finished a baffling 10th overall, about 20 places ahead of Elfyn Evans who won the championship that year…we didn’t make any setup changes all day, he just got on with it, and was fastest in class by an enormous margin on every single stage…

TDT said: I posted the Sport auto video before which shows benefit for all levels. Christian himself said he’s not a the ultimate level, but gained huge amount of confidence and could extra more from the car as he felt he could now do things with it that he said he couldn’t do before. The stuff doesn’t make the car automatically go faster… it allows the driver to feel that they can. Isn’t this just a sponsored advert from a company selling £50k worth of track stuff…!

IREvans said: TDT said: I posted the Sport auto video before which shows benefit for all levels. Christian himself said he’s not a the ultimate level, but gained huge amount of confidence and could extra more from the car as he felt he could now do things with it that he said he couldn’t do before. The stuff doesn’t make the car automatically go faster… it allows the driver to feel that they can. Isn’t this just a sponsored advert from a company selling £50k worth of track stuff…! I guess we don’t have to buy the stuff if you don’t think it’s of benefit/use. I stand by my point then, it’s redundant for 98% for us to be driving these GT cars.

My standard Toyota Yaris did a 2.12 around Oulton ... the front pads only lasted the morning but ? It is comparatively easy to drive around the limitations of a car (as per the Finish driver example) ... without timing pace is relative, but we are not professional drivers and a well controlled chassis without too may external (automatic) interventions, makes the learning much easier. A nice (nurburgring type?) 3 way set-up is also very useable on the road ....

IREvans said: 993rsr said: IMO, no, sure IREvans will be more erudite in his comments. I don't get the logic that aftermarket dampers somehow make it easier to go from 75% to 80% pace, it makes no sense - at least to me. Surely they are only able to offer the improvement when you are at the limit ( in terms of pace) of the OEM unit and a more sophisticated and adjustable damper can improve the lap time? Too much placebo affect Correct, aftermarket dampers do not automatically make a car lap quicker than the same car on OE dampers. The key to all of this is understanding what the car is doing, and being able to make adjustments to make it faster, or easier to drive (which invariably may lead to it being faster). Once a driver has understood how each axle of the car is behaving, and what bump and rebound adjustment is required to make it faster, then an upgraded adjustable damper will be of benefit. Up to this point, I would argue that an adjustable damper could become a hindrance, especially if it isn’t setup correctly. It reminds me of a rally we did years ago with a new Finnish driver who barely spoke a word of English, and hadn’t ever competed outside of Scandinavia. In the first test in the car which he’d never driven, he didn’t ask about tyre pressures, damper clicks or geometry, he just got in it and drove it. The rally was that weekend, and he finished a baffling 10th overall, about 20 places ahead of Elfyn Evans who won the championship that year…we didn’t make any setup changes all day, he just got on with it, and was fastest in class by an enormous margin on every single stage… Having had adjustables for 20 plus years, intially went backwards until i got them right,then tested against rs oe,the adjustables were very similar settings to oe,and left alone after,always compared against a clock! Dampers dont just control the springs today,they can control,pitch,yaw,oversteer and understeer,traction wet and dry,carry weight ,tyre wear etc,its a science with a skill required to set up correctly,and knowing when and what to adjust to get a advantage,and of course knowing your car intimately I kind of get where taffy is coming from,but you have to set a bench mark to adjust from,ie get consistent lap times lap after lap,then start thinking how to improve the driver and or the car. Its all not so easy

Managing 3 or 4 way damping adjustments is no small feat. Fine if you have a race team, but as a track day amateur, there’s a lot to get wrong. If you are the sort, like TDT who is ruthlessly analytical and meticulous at tracking data, settings and times, it’s something you can derive benefit from, both in terms of laps time and also enjoyment. IME it’s often surprising with adjustments that going for one improvement e.g. more low speed compression damping, can sometimes also require a secondary adjustment to another parameter, e.g. high speed compression.

Digga said: Managing 3 or 4 way damping adjustments is no small feat. Fine if you have a race team, but as a track day amateur, there’s a lot to get wrong. If you are the sort, like TDT who is ruthlessly analytical and meticulous at tracking data, settings and times, it’s something you can derive benefit from, both in terms of laps time and also enjoyment. IME it’s often surprising with adjustments that going for one improvement e.g. more low speed compression damping, can sometimes also require a secondary adjustment to another parameter, e.g. high speed compression. Correct. Now it’s not my intention to put anyone off spending lots of money on trick dampers, but the point I’m trying to get across is that without a fairly good understanding of the handling characteristics you’re trying to dial into the chassis, it could end up being a backward step for many. Every driver will have a slightly different driving style, and there very much isn’t one setup that suits all. Regarding your comment that one adjustment can often require another secondary adjustment, this is very much the case; Let’s say you’re trying to dial out early to mid corner under steer, you may start by opening front low speed compression to increase load on the front, but you would also open the rear rebound to encourage that pitching motion. You’ll know if you’ve gone too many clicks, as you’ll spin off right on the apex when you’ve finished your braking…!

To be honest my KW's were set-up by JZM (to Manthey Nurburgring) and apart from firming up the front compression by 1 click, have been left alone. It is accepted that fiddling with these settings is a fine art that I do not have ... but they have made a big difference over the standard PASM running kerbs etc ...

TDT said: Applause said: The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description. Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts. I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap! Wheels and aero discs are optional extras on the kit. I don’t think there is a debate that tuition makes you quicker. It’s a disingenuous argument anyway.. as by that rationale, most people on here shouldn’t be driving anything more capable than a Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus, let along any Porsche sports car. That’s what Rob Wilson uses Vauxhall Astra to coach F1 drivers so maybe we should all save money and go back to those… but that’s not gonna happen is it?!… ergo whilst logically rational and reductive, it’s a ridiculous statement. There was no mention of the wheels being optional on the quote I received from my OPC. How is it ridiculous to say that track tution will make you quicker, when the very premise of buying a performance kit is to make your car quicker? - Particularly given the outlay. Do you include yourself in the statement around what most people on here should be driving?

Applause said: TDT said: Applause said: The Chester cars only appear to have part of the kit fitted, the wheels and rear aero discs are missing and there is no mention of the dampers or various other parts in the description. Porsche have confirmed that the kit should only be sold as a whole and not in part as its incremental gains due to the some of the parts. I looked at it, price is circa £50k. - A fraction of the cost on tuition would make 99% of people quicker. If your a novice/intermediate your not going to feel the difference given pro's are only picking up 4/5 seconds over a 13 mile lap! Wheels and aero discs are optional extras on the kit. I don’t think there is a debate that tuition makes you quicker. It’s a disingenuous argument anyway.. as by that rationale, most people on here shouldn’t be driving anything more capable than a Vauxhall Astra or Ford Focus, let along any Porsche sports car. That’s what Rob Wilson uses Vauxhall Astra to coach F1 drivers so maybe we should all save money and go back to those… but that’s not gonna happen is it?!… ergo whilst logically rational and reductive, it’s a ridiculous statement. There was no mention of the wheels being optional on the quote I received from my OPC. How is it ridiculous to say that track tution will make you quicker, when the very premise of buying a performance kit is to make your car quicker? - Particularly given the outlay. Do you include yourself in the statement around what most people on here should be driving? OPC might quote for full kit if that’s what you asked for. Wheels and aero disc are optional parts of full kit, here’s the price-list from Manthey, that shows you the 2 full kit options… with and without wheels and aero discs There is also a la carte: - But you can just have the dampers. - You cannot get the any of the aero without the dampers. - You don’t have to get the wheels. - But you need the wheels to get the aero discs. Ref tuition… if you go back and what I actually wrote. You’ll understand it better. Tuition is valid of course. My point was that it’s disingenuous to just reduce this argument down to… if you still need tuition don’t buy a faster car or go-faster bits… because else we should all be still driving ‘Vauxhall Astras’. Notice I did say WE. I’m going back down to the beach. Edited by TDT on Monday 10th April 20:22

IREvans said: Digga said: Managing 3 or 4 way damping adjustments is no small feat. Fine if you have a race team, but as a track day amateur, there’s a lot to get wrong. If you are the sort, like TDT who is ruthlessly analytical and meticulous at tracking data, settings and times, it’s something you can derive benefit from, both in terms of laps time and also enjoyment. IME it’s often surprising with adjustments that going for one improvement e.g. more low speed compression damping, can sometimes also require a secondary adjustment to another parameter, e.g. high speed compression. Correct. Now it’s not my intention to put anyone off spending lots of money on trick dampers, but the point I’m trying to get across is that without a fairly good understanding of the handling characteristics you’re trying to dial into the chassis, it could end up being a backward step for many. Every driver will have a slightly different driving style, and there very much isn’t one setup that suits all. Regarding your comment that one adjustment can often require another secondary adjustment, this is very much the case; Let’s say you’re trying to dial out early to mid corner under steer, you may start by opening front low speed compression to increase load on the front, but you would also open the rear rebound to encourage that pitching motion. You’ll know if you’ve gone too many clicks, as you’ll spin off right on the apex when you’ve finished your braking…! On high-end mtb forks and shocks, you effectively have 5-way adjustment, because you can add or subtract air, which is the proxy for spring rate. Even more tricky. I have the x-rays to prove it.

Digga said: IREvans said: Digga said: Managing 3 or 4 way damping adjustments is no small feat. Fine if you have a race team, but as a track day amateur, there’s a lot to get wrong. If you are the sort, like TDT who is ruthlessly analytical and meticulous at tracking data, settings and times, it’s something you can derive benefit from, both in terms of laps time and also enjoyment. IME it’s often surprising with adjustments that going for one improvement e.g. more low speed compression damping, can sometimes also require a secondary adjustment to another parameter, e.g. high speed compression. Correct. Now it’s not my intention to put anyone off spending lots of money on trick dampers, but the point I’m trying to get across is that without a fairly good understanding of the handling characteristics you’re trying to dial into the chassis, it could end up being a backward step for many. Every driver will have a slightly different driving style, and there very much isn’t one setup that suits all. Regarding your comment that one adjustment can often require another secondary adjustment, this is very much the case; Let’s say you’re trying to dial out early to mid corner under steer, you may start by opening front low speed compression to increase load on the front, but you would also open the rear rebound to encourage that pitching motion. You’ll know if you’ve gone too many clicks, as you’ll spin off right on the apex when you’ve finished your braking…! On high-end mtb forks and shocks, you effectively have 5-way adjustment, because you can add or subtract air, which is the proxy for spring rate. Even more tricky. I have the x-rays to prove it. Car dampers are the same digga but using nitrogen,you can increase the pressure to take more weight of the car,mine are at 8 bar ,but can go upto 15 bar,may be we should all go down to the beach with T in our vauxhalls ,oh and a dog.

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Digga said: n high-end mtb forks and shocks, you effectively have 5-way adjustment, because you can add or subtract air, which is the proxy for spring rate. Even more tricky. I have the x-rays to prove it. Modern MTB forks are just mega aren’t they…those big jumps on the final downhill run at Nant yr Arian MTB park are a proper test for the right bump and rebound setting…I’m yet to get it just right..!

ChrisW. said: To be honest my KW's were set-up by JZM (to Manthey Nurburgring) and apart from firming up the front compression by 1 click, have been left alone. It is accepted that fiddling with these settings is a fine art that I do not have ... but they have made a big difference over the standard PASM running kerbs etc ... Stability over kerbs is all about high speed compression settings..! (As a rule of thumb, low speed compression settings are to react to driver induced vehicle motion; brake, throttle, steering) Interesting to note that Manthey’s KW Nurburgring kit runs softer springs

IREvans said: Stability over kerbs is all about high speed compression settings..! (As a rule of thumb, low speed compression settings are to react to driver induced vehicle motion; brake, throttle, steering) Interesting to note that Manthey’s KW Nurburgring kit runs softer springs The Manthey KWs as fitted to the 992GT3 has actually got +10% higher spring rates on the front axle and -7% less on the rear axle.

IREvans said: Stability over kerbs is all about high speed compression settings..! (As a rule of thumb, low speed compression settings are to react to driver induced vehicle motion; brake, throttle, steering) Interesting to note that Manthey’s KW Nurburgring kit runs softer springs As a general pattern this seems to be the case, yep. I’m not sure what it is for 992 GT3 however. For GT4 it’s very well judged IMO and actually then works well on British b-roads, over say 20MPH and warm Most people are actually surprised it works so well given the ‘expectation’ that it’s some rock hard race suspension. For GT4 it is a stiffer front spring. 60N/mm MR Vs 45N/mm OEM. Rear is left the same as OEM 80N/mm Personally for me, it will be interesting to see what they do for the 4RS kit… as I do expect then to soften it off a little to add drivability and traction… as the car was clearly very edgy during its launch N’ring lap driven by Jörg Bergmeister. Comparisons of that lap VS the GT4 MR lap… show the grip advantage the GT4 MR had over the 4RS in the corners even though the 4RS has gripper tyres (Cup2 R) and the GT4 MR just had regular N1 Cup 2. I’ve said it before stiffness ≠ grip. Edited by TDT on Monday 10th April 22:50

TDT, did you find out why the front wheel arch vents were blocked off completely on the official GT4 RS Nurburgring. This I assume would reduce front end downforce and as a result would increase understeer which is precisely what Jorg was fighting on the Ring run. Very confused on this seemingly senseless mod or did they just hobble it to keep the hierachy in its rightful place.

It’s not clear to me tbh….. Manthey seem to have gone in the other direction and have removed the large air deflectors/guides from the standard 4RS aero treatment, and instead decided to go with dual canards/dive planes on the development MR cars… I think these would add more front DF in order balance out the new larger rear wing… which looks very similar profile/shape to the 992 GT3 MR rear wing. Edited by TDT on Monday 10th April 23:38

I suspect that in the OEM 4RS Ring lap they had issues with the front wheels rubbing on the wheel arch made worse by a track bias geo with shims pushing the wheels out. They might have reduced the front downforce to lessen this. The only other reason I think is they deliberately created understeer to keep the time in check.

IREvans said: Digga said: n high-end mtb forks and shocks, you effectively have 5-way adjustment, because you can add or subtract air, which is the proxy for spring rate. Even more tricky. I have the x-rays to prove it. Modern MTB forks are just mega aren’t they…those big jumps on the final downhill run at Nant yr Arian MTB park are a proper test for the right bump and rebound setting…I’m yet to get it just right..! Last run of the day down black-grade Cachettes Downhill race track in Les Arcs about 10 years back. I knew I needed more compression damping, but was impatient to get going...

TDT said: Blackpool looks good this time of year

Digga said: Last run of the day down black-grade Cachettes Downhill race track in Les Arcs about 10 years back. I knew I needed more compression damping, but was impatient to get going... You should have kept to OEM Marcus, that looks like it hurt!! How are the new R&T suspension working out?

Digga said: Last run of the day down black-grade Cachettes Downhill race track in Les Arcs about 10 years back. I knew I needed more compression damping, but was impatient to get going... You should have kept to OEM Marcus, that looks like it hurt!! How are the new R&T suspension working out?

Digga said: Last run of the day down black-grade Cachettes Downhill race track in Les Arcs about 10 years back. I knew I needed more compression damping, but was impatient to get going... Ouch..! That’s some impressive metalwork on your clavicle there. I avoided having metalwork in mine when I snapped it, but it somehow healed back in roughly the right shape..!

FL Racing said: Digga said: Last run of the day down black-grade Cachettes Downhill race track in Les Arcs about 10 years back. I knew I needed more compression damping, but was impatient to get going... You should have kept to OEM Marcus, that looks like it hurt!! How are the new R&T suspension working out? Superb at Oulton. Surprisingly superb on ‘road’ settings. At Silverstone in a week to see if/how I can get it working on flat, fast stuff. If that goes, then I am very happy indeed and will look forward to Nurburgring and Spa trips later in the year.

IREvans said: Digga said: Last run of the day down black-grade Cachettes Downhill race track in Les Arcs about 10 years back. I knew I needed more compression damping, but was impatient to get going... Ouch..! That’s some impressive metalwork on your clavicle there. I avoided having metalwork in mine when I snapped it, but it somehow healed back in roughly the right shape..! Was complicated break and AC and pectoral minor ligaments so surgery needed. Healed up with 95+% mobility and strength. Just gives occasional aggro.

https://youtu.be/oWD9PIMrUek 24:21 Manthey chat JCR: "around the 'ring, the kit is worth 10-15s per lap to an Am driver but to Kevin Estre it's only worth around 4s". The suggestion is that the modifications don't add a huge amount to the extreme limits of the car but they make it easier to drive for mere mortals, hence allowing them to get closer to the limits of the car. I guess if you've got the time, tuition will get you closer to the limits of any car. But if you're only getting the chance to jump on track a few times a year and you've got the resources, the MR kit might be for you.

Genuine question: Why would you spend £50k on the kit and compromise a road car when you can buy a 997 Cup for £60k and you have the perfect track day and perfect road car … for the same money? Any Cup or GT3R would be significantly faster and more fun to set up fully.

Thanks for all the replies. I've been digesting them all trying to understand what I end up with should I be lucky enough to snag one of the cars. Truly brain damaging experience.

WojaWabbit said: https://youtu.be/oWD9PIMrUek 24:21 Manthey chat JCR: "around the 'ring, the kit is worth 10-15s per lap to an Am driver but to Kevin Estre it's only worth around 4s". The suggestion is that the modifications don't add a huge amount to the extreme limits of the car but they make it easier to drive for mere mortals, hence allowing them to get closer to the limits of the car. I guess if you've got the time, tuition will get you closer to the limits of any car. But if you're only getting the chance to jump on track a few times a year and you've got the resources, the MR kit might be for you. 10 seconds at the ‘ring is like 2 seconds off a lap of say Silverstone. A driver of that standard would achieve a lot more than 2 secs off a Silverstone lap with maybe three days of tuition….and crucially get a lot more satisfaction as the improvement is all down to driver improvement. And still have £48,500 in the bank.

Cheib said: 10 seconds at the ‘ring is like 2 seconds off a lap of say Silverstone. A driver of that standard would achieve a lot more than 2 secs off a Silverstone lap with maybe three days of tuition ….and crucially get a lot more satisfaction as the improvement is all down to driver improvement. And still have £48,500 in the bank. Oh really. it depends what kind of times you are doing at Silverstone such that '3 days of tuition would improve your times by a lot more than 2s'. The point of kit upgrades isn't about improvement in laptimes, just like buying ever faster and more capable cars. People do those things because well.. they can first of all and the new kit/car/etc for various reasons add to the sense of ownership. If doing faster laps was the point then there are (much) cheaper ways to lap Silverstone more quickly than a gt3.

isaldiri said: People do those things because well.. they can As a particularly astute gent I know would say ' it's preening'.

Cheib said: 10 seconds at the ‘ring is like 2 seconds off a lap of say Silverstone. Doesn’t really scan that. The risk of attempt shave 2 seconds at Silverstone are orders of magnitude lower than at the ‘Ring. You could be faster than a driver on Silverstone, but have nowhere near either the experience or the balls to beat them at the Nordschleife. It’s not like comparing Silverstone to, for example, Donington or Anglesey.

I nipped into Oulton this arvo and found one of the two Chester cars on track. The owner races and said it was the closest thing to a race car on the road that he's ever driven. He mentioned that the other Chester Manthey car sold 20mins before hand.

I was on track at Silverstone GP yesterday, with two 991 GT3 RS drivers (one from here) a gen 1 and a gen 2 Weissach. Neither think they could justify the cost of the full MR setup, despite both running the Manthey KW suspension. No harm in it if you can afford it and want to do it, of course. FWIW one of them has several trackable cars, so it’s not a matter of money where they are concerned.

Digga said: Cheib said: 10 seconds at the ‘ring is like 2 seconds off a lap of say Silverstone. Doesn’t really scan that. The risk of attempt shave 2 seconds at Silverstone are orders of magnitude lower than at the ‘Ring. You could be faster than a driver on Silverstone, but have nowhere near either the experience or the balls to beat them at the Nordschleife. It’s not like comparing Silverstone to, for example, Donington or Anglesey. Understand that. I was just trying to make the point that 10 seconds sounds massive but it's off 8 minutes. Not really comparing the difficulty of the different track which I understand....you can learn Silverstone much quicker obviously but there's also a whole load more complexityand varied tests of a driver at the 'ring..

As has been said the suspension package provides most of the benefit. Fortunately you can buy just those bits.

It's amazing to think that for years many people track-dayed earlier GT3s without a Manthey kit at all, but got on just fine. Or that Chris Harris and co-drivers raced a road going 997 GT3 RS in the Nurburgring 24hrs, now they wouldn't be allowed on a track day without blowing 50k

Cheib said: Digga said: Cheib said: 10 seconds at the ‘ring is like 2 seconds off a lap of say Silverstone. Doesn’t really scan that. The risk of attempt shave 2 seconds at Silverstone are orders of magnitude lower than at the ‘Ring. You could be faster than a driver on Silverstone, but have nowhere near either the experience or the balls to beat them at the Nordschleife. It’s not like comparing Silverstone to, for example, Donington or Anglesey. Understand that. I was just trying to make the point that 10 seconds sounds massive but it's off 8 minutes. Not really comparing the difficulty of the different track which I understand....you can learn Silverstone much quicker obviously but there's also a whole load more complexityand varied tests of a driver at the 'ring.. Moot. Time slips through the fingers of my ham fists whatever the circuit. I’m just there for fun.

TDT said: As has been said the suspension package provides most of the benefit. Fortunately you can buy just those bits. What he said! The passive KW suspension should be part and parcel of the Clubsport pack IMO

To close this off, after much discussion with many people on this, the Manthey noose that came with this allocation was a step too far for me, and the dealer and I couldn't come to an agreement on a mutually beneficial solution. Moreso due to the fact that the car didn't have a roll cage. Trying to move a Manthey kitted car on in the future without a cage would almost impossible.

Didn’t realise that that was part of the discussion when you raised the topic. With the release of the performance kit for 992 GT3 it does seems as though there is a bit of a push/upsell from OPCs… your case is not the first I’ve heard. As it happens I was actually talking to my OPC about doing something like this back in August last year, that if they could get hold of a lightly used 992 GT3 with little to no premium, then I’d do some element of kit with them (dampers). We had an agreement in principle but not movement yet, and overs are falling off 992 GT3 anyway. So worth waiting. Having said that no doubt about it … it is a lot of money.

FZP said: To close this off, after much discussion with many people on this, the Manthey noose that came with this allocation was a step too far for me, and the dealer and I couldn't come to an agreement on a mutually beneficial solution. Moreso due to the fact that the car didn't have a roll cage. Trying to move a Manthey kitted car on in the future without a cage would almost impossible. I think I know who you are now. If I’m right I gave you some passenger laps in my GT4 RS at Oulton Park last Saturday ?

Yes, I'm still waxing lyrical about that passenger lap. Thanks again,

Just to put a bow on it. If you’re fast enough, but can’t get a 992 3RS… 992 MR… lol…

OPC wolverhampton have some sort of event going on and they have 4 Manthey cars in the showroom .

Porsche GB are runnng these nights, they're happening all over the UK at the moment. The Manthey equipped cars are basically on a promo tour

Yep it’s big push, and if you add to your order…. might help your case. Ticks extras boxes… Whether or not that’s for you is another thing. Edited by TDT on Friday 12th May 16:14

So now to get an RS slot you're gonna have to add the Weissach pack, the watch and a Manthey upgrade.........?

Guyr said: So now to get an RS slot you're gonna have to add the Weissach pack, the watch and a Manthey upgrade.........? In summary, take it up the arRiS to get an RS.

Digga said: Guyr said: So now to get an RS slot you're gonna have to add the Weissach pack, the watch and a Manthey upgrade.........? In summary, take it up the arRiS to get an RS. Haha