9m 968 Supercharger conversion - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Nice one 9M. I can't make the meet but look forward to the dyno results. I'll check your website for more details and prices etc.

Cool... Who made the supercharger Colin? Was it a Vortech or Eaton? Cheers Dom

Can you do a discount for Herman and my machine booked in at the same time?

Colin, Do you have any idea how much this conversion is going to cost? With all this extra power, do you need to beef up the clutch/gearbox/brakes? Barry.

I cannot claim fame on the design of the kit, but suffice to say that it will no doubt be subjected to the usual 9m refinement over the coming months. We reckon that the stock clutch will be fine, and since the gearbox has been well proven on tuned 951s I don't think you will have an issue here either. Traction, however, will be a problem! The kit will cost around £4750 + VAT including the blower, pipework, intercooler, injectors and dme remapping. Fitting will be £500 + VAT. Regarding discounts (already!!!!), sorry but the package has cost so much to do it is list price or nothing. I'll post more info, dyno runs and photos on our site as soon as.

Much as I'd love to fit a supercharger to my S2, I doubt whether I'd be able to afford it (the car only cost £6500!) Apart from the cheaper option of putting a 944 turbo engine in, are there any other engine options that could be developed for the 944/968? I know Renegade Hybrids in the states do V8 convertions, would a 928 engine fit? It would probably be lighter than a normal US V8. I suppose you could say 'why not just get a 928?' They are a heavier and are mainly autos - and I already have a 944. The cost could be offset by selling the existing engine - how much would a reconditioned 928 V8 cost? I do love my 944, but this could add just whats missing: more power and the sound of a V8!

Andy, don't rule out the 928 so quickly I had a passenger ride in an manual S4 and I have to say this engine is absolutely fabulous: the torque delivered is amazing and the car is much more agile than it suggests (the one I went in had a TechArt suspension). Btw if you actually look at the weight figures an S4 is not far heavier than a loaded 996...only more powerful And there's that "I own the road would please get out of my way you numpty" factor Since I had a go in it I am seriously considering an S4 GT as a replacement of my humble 944.

Yes Thom, I certainly agree that the 928 is quite formidable, though it's forte is as a continent eating GT. I prefer a lighter sportscar, though even the 944 at over 1300kg is a bit lardy. However, it has such great potential, as can be seen from its evolution into the 968CS. But it could always have handled more power and I just want the other half of my engine back

Scottster, I'll go halves with you. You can have it on Tuesdays and I'll have it the rest of the week

C'mon Herman, for a high flying City boy like yourself this is small change!! ps: 9M, only joking about a discount, I'll start saving instead.

Results from the first dyno session today, compared to the best we could get from a totally standard M030 968 on Motec. >> Edited by ninemeister on Wednesday 19th March 01:02

That is one big hole in the torque curve. You can feel it in the standard 968cs but this looks at lot bigger if i have read the chart correctly. Is this going to be corrected and why do you need variable valve timing on a supercharged engine. Finally I can't believe that dom the mod has not stopped this blatant advertising!!

I'm sorry if the hole in the torque curve offends you Guy, try as we could we could not repair the damage done by using the lousy Porsche designed intake manifold, the dip thus becoming an exagerated characteristic of the standard car dur to the stupendous top end. Did you miss the fact that we have a 350bhp 968 with almost 300bhp at the wheels? Oh, and I'm also sorry that this blatant advertising is giving people something interesting to talk about. S'funny thing, advertising. Like how I have been grilled on this site about Motec 964's, answered everyone's questions, in detail, and not had one order for the conversion as a result, but I'm happy, because at last the misinformation that is banded around by those who think they know is disappearing slowly. If you think I'm advertising for percsonal gain, do something about it. In the long run everyone will be so much better off discussing the best options to have on a Cayenne, I'm sure. After all, Pistonheads is not a performance orientated site, is it?

If a question about your first run of a new piece of equipment causes such a negative response it is pointless asking more! >> Edited by bluesatin on Wednesday 12th March 06:48

Dude I sent an email on Monday asking for a quote for MoTECing my car plus service and other sundry stuff as I need to book it in before I dash off to Spa with Mr. Palmer. Did you not get it? Cheers

Just to clarify a few points here, especially as Guy gave me a name check earlier on 1) There is a very fine line between communicating relevant information to the PH community, and blatant advertising. I have read virtually all of 9Ms posts, and he has walked the line extremely well and conscientiously IMHO. I believe that the info re 968 Supercharger conversions and air intake manifolds will be relevant to a number of readers on this forum with 968s and 944s, and that it is fair for 9M to announce any of his new inventions and get some feedback - positive or negative, as is the nature of an open forum. If Colin was to keep going on about the conversion every other thread, mentioning 'sale must end tomorrow', 'hurry these conversions won't hang around' etc and generally acting as a trader, then the situation would be different. But he doesn't, and in fact most forum members may not even know that he has a relevant business. 2) 9M has been a valued member of this forum, and has - as he points out - given some very useful advice over many months. Certainly if I hadn't got a new home and an Ultima kit, nor disposed of the Red Baron, he would be fettling it already with MoTeC bits. Sadly, the allocated cash went on bricks and mortar. However, his comments are good for us and good for him, depsite a paucity of orders... his reputation is pretty good amongst those who know him here, and they will be recommending him to others and mentioning his name. Anyway, the point is that if you are a regular or valuable contibutor, then you may be allowed a little leeway in certain forum issues. Like we don't mind if DeR posts in a foreign language , or Scottster gets a bit lewd or mentions Chelsea FC . This doesn't mean people can take the piss. Just that other members of the forum are likely to be able to read their comments in the right context. 3) Any comments regarding moderation should be emailed off list to either Daz (Dazren), Steve (sb930) or myself, rather than being mentioned publicly. After all, 9M may feel he has been accused of breaching forum rules, when I think that this is not the case. So back to the Cayenne options... electric heated cup holders anyone? Rgds Domster >> Edited by domster (moderator) on Wednesday 12th March 10:20

BlueSatin, I hope that your comments re advertising were light hearted and that 9M has mistakenly taken them to heart. If not, please stop trying to prevent the NineMeister from posting his findings on this site. As a 968 CS owner myself, I am of course very interested in anything that is being done to increase the power of these cars. Colin should be applauded for actually trying to do something with a 968 as there's nobody else in this country doing much at the moment. If anybody does know of any other tuning options for the 968, please post the details here. If you call that advertsing, then so be it, but I still want to know about them.

9M and I have conversed on the matter. It's a fine line which he's kept the right side of to date. By far the majority of the contributions have been made to proffer advice or to post about a project of interest. I do have to be hard on advertising within the forums as advertising pays for this site. Anyone using the forums to advertise rather than contributing financially to the running of ths site, both irritates me and makes it difficult when negotiating with other potential advertisers. We know where the line is - 9M is now more aware of it but hopefully this won't stop valuable contributions still being made.

Dear all The advertising part was a joke and to be taken lightly but the other parts of the post were serious.

Heavy!!! I read it & thought BS was having a bit of a lark. It is always interesting to have input from 9M and others with their hands on technical knowledge,the forum would certainly be weakened if all we talked about were bodykits & availability of magazines.

Guy, The negative reply that you received from me was in response to the negative comments from you picking on the dip in the torque curve and then having a go for advertising. In all honesty, what did you expect? After a retrospective re-read I think that you need to look at things from my point of view. As far as I know this is the first real, affordable performance upgrade EVER for the 968 & 944S2 engines. I have worked with Paul for months trying to get this blower kit sorted, so to come back from a hot day at the rollers with 100bhp added to the rear wheels, elated, the least we expected was a "wow, well done, but what about...." and not a pot-half-empty "you should not even be here" reply. I'm sorry if you expect me to sit back and accept negative comments, but anyone who knows me will tell you that it is not my way. I have no intention to offend anyone, and have spoken to Ted about "advertising" and will be more careful not to talk prices in the future, but please try to look at the positives, let's encourage others to have a go and not do the British thing and knock them before they have a chance. If you have any specific questions please feel free to ask, but be a little more careful about how you do it in future, if you keep kicking your dog it will eventually bite back. To answer your only question, the variocam only operates on a 968 above 6000 rpm and at idle, so its effect is negligible on the supercharger package. Increasing overlap is a problem for blowers, the boost rushes out of the exhaust, but the kit is a bolt-on for a standard engine, so why remove/disable something that is not causing a problem?

I think Colin probably takes the 'no advertising' thing quite seriously, so even if Guy was joking (no smilies in the original post), it may still have ruffled 9Ms feathers. That said, the hole in the torque curve was interesting, but as 9M said, look at the power produced... v impressive. Surely having variable valve timing wouldn't hurt in a supercharged environment though, even if it isn't as useful as when normally aspirated?

Colin I undersand what you are saying and having owned a 968 for three years i would love to have seen a uk package such as yours. What i was looking for was an answer to say that this was the first run and a starting point to further mods such dirferent cams or inlet manifolds. Perhaps the ad part set you in a negative direction but that was what i was looking for.

Sorry I may have missed some of this thread, but I'm curious about that dip. Are you using a positive displacement supercharger? What is the boost pressure doing at that point? My limited understanding suggests that if the boost pressure goes up it must be breathing limited on the induction side (cam timing? induction pulse tuning?). If it goes down, most likely you are getting blow through so perhaps unwanted exhaust pulse tuning or cam timing/overlap (although cam effects should be stronger at the bottom end unless you have some sort of variocam effect at that point?). If it's a blow through problem, you can solve it quite elegantly by putting a back pressure valve on the exhaust. To prove the concept, just restrict the tail pipe and if you have excessive blow-through you should see the boost pressure and torque increase. Would be interested to know how you get on with this as I'm trying to figure out how to set these things up ... Peter Humphries (and a green V8S)

So in theory then the same kit installed to an S2 would yield virtually identical results apart from over 6000 rpm Can't wait to see Paul in action at one of the Open races this year, 350bhp in an 1100 Kg 944 will be very interesting. Well done Colin Paul Smith (944 S2 & 944 Turbo)

I must remind myself that the contents of my ISA are to be used as a house deposit...

I'd take 9M's 'adverts' over 99.9999% of the other posts! Keep up the good work 9M!

I agree with Rodsmith, 9Ms posts are very informative and the information within them often applicable to other vehicles/technology..Keep up the good work davidy

The dip in the torque curve is a characteristic shared with all the 968's I have ever tuned. We tried to use the Motec system to map around it, but in the end had to settle for the same dip but at a higher torque level. We think the dip is due to intake manifold design, believe me when I say it is nothing to do with the variocam itself, or the exhaust tuning, or head since the S2 does not have it. The cam timing is largely the same as the S2 so the only thing left is the manifold. The blower is a centrifugal unit, so it does not really get going until 3500-4000, deliberately designed this way to delay the bottom end torque and allow some driveability, but because of this it does not have full boost available to fill in the hole. Now, as you rightly said Guy this was the first run on the dyno and there is a long way to go. The mixture here was not ideal, running a little on the rich side to keep everything cool, and maybe the ignition timing is a tad conservative, but I think we have the choice of: 1. accept the dip and max the torque before and after 2. reduce the torque belop the dip to flatten out 3. replace the manifold, new design or 944S2? As a purist who ALWAYS wants more, I want to replace the manifold, but who will pay the additional cost of a completely new design? There is a possibility of fitting our Quad Throttle Body set up to the test engine to see what we can get, but with 350bhp at the top end, the question has to be raised of how much power do we need? We will refine it for sure, but until sales or customer demand forces us to redesign, I think that the dip may have to be accepted or we look at back to back testing an engine with a 944S2 manifold to prove the theory. The knock on effect of our QTB kit will be seeing if the dip is eliminated, so maybe here lies the answer. Ultimately (sorry Ted) it comes down to money. At the price of this conversion you could just about buy a LHD 968, whereupon if we added another grand or so with a manifold who will buy it? What you have to remember is that if you have a 951 (944 turbo) you would have to spend £10k to get a genuine 350bhp, and a turbo conversion on the 968 would probably end up at £15k, so it appears to be favourably priced in comparison. Anyway time will tell, the more orders, the more development we can do and the better it will be for everyone.

Thanks for the support folks, I appreciate it. I definitely did not see the funny side of Guy's comments, maybe just too tired from an exhausting day on the dyno, but I'll keep a closer look out in future. Oh, whilst we are on the subject, I want a set of Porsche Hunter wellies in Speed yellow for my new van.....

Back on the rollers next Tuesday, 18th March. We're goin' a huntin' for that hole with our chip gun!

Good luck with it - if I had the spare cash I'd have ordered one yesterday... You DO have the spare cash, go on spend it! No you cannot possibly spend that sort of money on your car, you should be saving... Supercharger House deposit Supercharger House deposit

AJ Spend the ISA's before they are worth naff all, save up again and buy the house in 18 months when they are at a reasonable price! ( just think if the house price was to drop by, say 10 grand, then by buying the s/c you've still saved 4 grand ish ) Paul

I can't actually afford any house round here anyway - most I could afford with a mortgage+savings is about £80k. You really don't have a chance getting on the property ladder without a double income these days So does that mean as I'm going to have to live at home for the rest of my life anyway, I'm allowed to spend ALL my money??

Yeah go on Andy, it's your money, you've earned it, you've worked hard all year and deserve a little bonus. Besides who needs a house, you can't light up your rear tyres in a house can you? You can't hear that S/C spool up in a house can you? Think how well your car would run down to Le Mans with a Supercharger under the bonnet.......

AJ, Just marry a bird, sorry chick, sorry tart, sorry slapper, sorry WOMAN - got there in the end - who already has her own house. VS

Who's the Daddy??? Just back home from another exhausting dyno session, shot the torque holes to pieces!! Take a look at this: Says it all really, what more could anyone possibly want from a bolt-on conversion? >> Edited by ninemeister on Wednesday 19th March 12:04

Absolutely superb 9M. I can't believe you get in at this time of the morning and still have the energy to come and post the results. Well done. I actually woke up this morning, thinking about this conversion and what I'm gonna do to any 911's that fancy it in the summer I'm having the service/belt changes etc done this weekend so I'll be getting the car back next week which happens to be when I find out how much my bonus is gonna be this year. Please God, let it be a good one. Are you planning to measure the performance increase over the standard car, 0-60, 0-100 etc ?

I recall that one of the main problems which plagued the 968 Turbo RS was blown head gaskets. Do you expect any similar problems with the supercharger conversion?

The way that Paul drives this car on the track means that it is inevitable that something somewhere will let go at some time, but in theory with correct mapping and enough fuel there is no reason why the gasket will fail because we are not seeing the same bmep as a turbocharged engine (bmep = brake mean effective pressure = running cylinder pressure =~ torque). From experience with the 964 engine on low boost, we are now tuning have the 964RS+1 engine package to 340bhp 422Nm on Motec with cams, whereas the stock 964 on a supercharger started out at 335bhp & 410Nm at 4.5psi of boost. In other words, the blower is nothing more than a method of perfecting volumetric (breathing) efficiency to give the engine the air it should have had in the first place if only the design had been good enough. 350bhp with a 3.0 litre represents 116bhp/l, which is around what Honda have from the new 2.2l VTEC engines, so the question should possibly be rephrased as: "Do Porsche make as good an engine as Honda?" Food for thought, eh? >> Edited by ninemeister on Wednesday 2nd April 12:31

R&D, tough job, but someones gotta do it

Well folks, the 968 blower conversion is finally running. For all interested parties, get your bum over to Oulton Park on 22nd March where Paul will be trying it in anger for the first time. I'll be power testing it on Tuesday next (11th), expect to see the dyno results on our web site the same day. PS. Spins tyres (P Zero C) in the dry with a prod of the throttle in 2nd or 3rd at 3000 rpm. Hmmmmm, might just have to investigate in a 968 for Sarah......