Centre Gravity - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I’m sure some of you will have used CG for geo and alignment. I took my 991.1 GTS there today for the morning and it was a complete revelation. For those that haven’t, here’s how the day works: A chat with Chris (or his son in law) about why you are there. He really listens and picks up on every detail, probing to get to the heart of the issue. For me, the car was very fidgety at speed, pulled left on accel and suffered with understeer more often than I’d expect. With that done, you both go out in the car with Chris driving. He does a series of slow speed tests to see how the car tracks, then a couple of higher speed portions, accels and roundabouts, speed bumps and cobbles (yep, a great way of hearing any component issues apparently!) On return, he takes 20 mins or so to scribble down the details, gets the car up to see how the geo is, and comes up with a plan. He asks what your preference is for setup (for me, fast road with a responsive front end) then explains what work will be done and importantly why. Once done, it out onto the road again to repeat the tests, then you get a chance to try it out. I was staggered at the difference. The car was settled, predictable, compliant and arrow straight. Most importantly I had full confidence in it after only a few corners. This isn’t an advert for CG, albeit they were absolutely superb, but more a reminder that if you’re not 100% happy with how your car behaves, it’s likely that the suspension and geometry could well be out. Definitely worth a visit! Here’s to many happy miles.

It’s amazing to hear that Chris still uses exactly the same philosophy today as he did almost 15 years ago when I took my 987 Cayman S to him. There are not that many businesses that still have such a hands on and transparent approach to their business and their work. So many “suspension specialist” these days seem to like to keep their work behind closed doors, as though there is some kind of secret to it. There isn’t. It’s having the best equipment, calibrated correctly, operates by people that know what they are doing, and more importantly, listen to what their customers want. So glad to hear that Chris and his team are still delivering the same level of customer service as they were all those years ago. Bravo.

These guys are great at what they do, and great people too. I always learn loads.

TDT said: These guys are great at what they do, and great people too. I always learn loads. Chris certainly has a well earned reputation for being tip top. I was having dinner with some folks at Portimao a few years ago chatting to him as he was sat next to me, said he'd come out with me the next day, tell me what was wrong with my set up. After a few very sideways laps he got out mumbling something along the lines of 'there's fxxk all wrong with that!'

Small world OP - I had the afternoon slot! Would echo your thoughts. First time I've used CG. Very professional and informative. Had mine set up for road use and early impressions are very positive, especially on the rough roads that are common in my neck of the woods. So thanks Chris...and Holly!

nick28 said: Small world OP - I had the afternoon slot! Would echo your thoughts. First time I've used CG. Very professional and informative. Had mine set up for road use and early impressions are very positive, especially on the rough roads that are common in my neck of the woods. So thanks Chris...and Holly! Hey Nick, small world indeed! Shame I missed you. Good shout on the mention for Holly too, she’s the glue that holds business side together! Cheers, Mark

How does it work - do you just book in for a half day slot and they sort it there and then? Impressive if so.

kith said: How does it work - do you just book in for a half day slot and they sort it there and then? Impressive if so. Yep, they’re booked up for months though. I waited about 8 weeks I think, and they now (quite rightly) ask for a deposit as they lost so much time and money to timewasters that don’t pitch up. All happens over a period of about 4-4.5 hours, that’s assuming they don’t find any component damage or wear that need replacing.

anonymous said: [redacted] I did it all by email and they were brilliant. Holly runs the office and her comms were fine. I’d drop her an email as a reminder or call again.

Will be calling them tomorrow. Just rebuilt the front suspension on my 928. Fitted M474 sport shocks and rebuilt the rest. Has a tendancy to head left, so off to CG we go.

jackwood said: It’s amazing to hear that Chris still uses exactly the same philosophy today as he did almost 15 years ago when I took my 987 Cayman S to him. There are not that many businesses that still have such a hands on and transparent approach to their business and their work. So many “suspension specialist” these days seem to like to keep their work behind closed doors, as though there is some kind of secret to it. There isn’t. It’s having the best equipment, calibrated correctly, operates by people that know what they are doing, and more importantly, listen to what their customers want. So glad to hear that Chris and his team are still delivering the same level of customer service as they were all those years ago. Bravo. I work setting up suspension for road cars… you are absolutely correct - it’s not magic. Anyone who can’t give you a simple explanation for why your car is not driving normally don’t really know what they are talking about.

Kawasicki said: I work setting up suspension for road cars… you are absolutely correct - it’s not magic. Anyone who can’t give you a simple explanation for why your car is not driving normally don’t really know what they are talking about. It's not magic but it's far from simple. Explaining HSC, LSC, HSR, LSR, roll centre, etc etc. and how they all interact isn't straight fwd.

I went to him and he did a great job on the car, but it was expensive, about £600 as he changed two arms. However, I also got a geo done by a garage for a fraction of the price and, well that worked too.

Nice CG video here:- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ya_7YgsC8lM

Niponeoff said: I went to him and he did a great job on the car, but it was expensive, about £600 as he changed two arms. However, I also got a geo done by a garage for a fraction of the price and, well that worked too. CoG are suspension experts & hence whilst you might get a guy at the local garage offer a 4 wheel alignment adjustment, they are in a different league with what they offer & their knowledge/expertise - your comment about £600 is l suspect slightly misleading as I had an full alignment check/adjustments done for about £350 a couple of years ago on my 996. Their knowledge allows you the ability to have your car set to a spec better than the standard manufacturer's one.

Minor thing but I had a thump on cornering I couldn't pin down in my Cayman, I got on the phone to Chris with a view to booking in for a check & after twenty minutes of what felt like the third degree, he suggested I look at the battery & sure enough, it had been changed for one smaller than the original and it was sliding around in the tray, banging against the tray end. Point being is Chris gave generously of his time & experience & I remember that, just as I remember other places for different experiences.

MrC986 said: Niponeoff said: I went to him and he did a great job on the car, but it was expensive, about £600 as he changed two arms. However, I also got a geo done by a garage for a fraction of the price and, well that worked too. CoG are suspension experts & hence whilst you might get a guy at the local garage offer a 4 wheel alignment adjustment, they are in a different league with what they offer & their knowledge/expertise - your comment about £600 is l suspect slightly misleading as I had an full alignment check/adjustments done for about £350 a couple of years ago on my 996. Their knowledge allows you the ability to have your car set to a spec better than the standard manufacturer's one. If you want the experience fine. Chris did a great job and yes It did include the two arms he changed which I mentioned. But anyone with a hunter can dial in any specs you like. There's actually nothing special about it, which I found out! but Chris has carved himself out a niche and good luck to him. I actually thought CG used some kind of state of the art tech, but it is just a hunter alignment machine. Same as you'll find in Kwik fit. Granted Kwik fit won't give you a bespoke setup, but you might be surprised what your local porsche specialist can do when you ask him for an alignment on top of your service. That's all.

What's the cost of a 4 wheel geo from CG?

993rsr said: TDT said: These guys are great at what they do, and great people too. I always learn loads. Chris certainly has a well earned reputation for being tip top. I was having dinner with some folks at Portimao a few years ago chatting to him as he was sat next to me, said he'd come out with me the next day, tell me what was wrong with my set up. After a few very sideways laps he got out mumbling something along the lines of 'there's fxxk all wrong with that!' Except the disconnected rear tied rods? There is only one Eason I’ve not used CG recently - all my car’s services and upgrades are done by Sports and Classic and together (Mike mostly, with a little of my input) we’ve always got things worked out. Not for a moment would I hesitate to recommend though. The thorough approach of these specialists will find knock and niggles, even on well sorted cars, that many would otherwise fail to catch.

Center Gravity (yes that is the right spelling there’s an anecdote about that) is more like therapy for you and your 911 than suspension geometry. Highly recommended and you go away with a car that is totally right for you as well as a really detailed knowledge of its mechanical condition and what you need to do (or not) to keep it healthy. I would go straight there with any new (to me) 911

scrounger73 said: What's the cost of a 4 wheel geo from CG? I paid £395 in all. £100 deposit then the balance on the day. The mention of it being therapy for both you and car is spot on. I’ve never been more reassured about a car I own than yesterday. Mine’s got 35k miles on it and Chris gave it a very thorough going over whilst educating me on the nuances of geometry. Yes, you could pay £50 to have it done at a local garage or KwikFit, and if you’re ok with that, knock yourself out. I’m much happier in paying extra for the trust I had in the process and the experience of witnessing the change as a result of the thorough process. Each very much to their own, but I reckon it’s the best £400 I’ve ever spent on a car.

Bincenzo said: I paid £395 in all. £100 deposit then the balance on the day. The mention of it being therapy for both you and car is spot on. I’ve never been more reassured about a car I own than yesterday. Mine’s got 35k miles on it and Chris gave it a very thorough going over whilst educating me on the nuances of geometry. Yes, you could pay £50 to have it done at a local garage or KwikFit, and if you’re ok with that, knock yourself out. I’m much happier in paying extra for the trust I had in the process and the experience of witnessing the change as a result of the thorough process. Each very much to their own, but I reckon it’s the best £400 I’ve ever spent on a car. Totally agree, I had been driving my 997 albeit as a weekend car for 5 years before changing to PS4,s and a trip to CG, the car really is transformed and I now use it a lot more frequently. I feel I almost wasted 5 years of previous ownership!

I have been visiting CoG for nearly 15 years. Yes Chris and Pete are great at setting a car up, but their main attribute for me is diagnosis and fixing of suspension issues - everything from knocks and creaks, to full refurbs. I have done it all on various cars. Suffice to say that if you are fed up with suspension issues and changing bits that don't help, just go to CoG. They have fixed my problems, on everything from a 996 GT3 to a 2.2s, in one hit. And at a cheaper labour rate than most garages. And you get a good geo to boot if needed. Edit: they just need a Hunter Road Force balancer to perfect the job.

I first went to Chris when I had my S2000 many moons ago. When I got my 911 I went back there. As others have said, you get what you pay for. Chris gets it. I'll be getting the CG GT suspension kit for my 996 C2 when they become available later this year - its out on test with Paul Stephens I believe - should be fantastic.

Niponeoff said: If you want the experience fine. Chris did a great job and yes It did include the two arms he changed which I mentioned. But anyone with a hunter can dial in any specs you like. There's actually nothing special about it, which I found out! but Chris has carved himself out a niche and good luck to him. I actually thought CG used some kind of state of the art tech, but it is just a hunter alignment machine. Same as you'll find in Kwik fit. Granted Kwik fit won't give you a bespoke setup, but you might be surprised what your local porsche specialist can do when you ask him for an alignment on top of your service. That's all. The race winning cars i setup have their geometry setup using a fishing line, two alloy bars, a 12" rule, a basic digital angle gauge and corner weight scales on a flat floor. It's not the equipment you are paying for, although modern kit at a static base helps speed up the process but obviously can't be used in a circuit paddock, it's the skill and knowledge of the person doing the work that you are paying for.

Agree. It’s experience, expertise and specialisation you are paying for and getting. The skill and knowledge are key. CG, like many other decent, dedicated indies, know these cars inside out. Know which bits can fail, cause niggles - but not easy to diagnose one’s - and take the edge of the driving and performance experience. This is especially true of earlier generations of car which are now well beyond the sensible remit of the OEM service schedules. Indies see enough of these cars to form their own, informed routines.

They really are good there and i would not hesitate to take a car i had a problem with to them. its just shame they are so far from me. I took my tuscan to them. It had of course been aligned by all of the 'specialists' who quite frankly did a poor job and my tuscan retained the classic tvr kill you handling. After doing a load of work to the chassis i took it to them and afterwards i had a car which could be driven like it had been stolen down a b road! was worth every penny.

I've just booked in with Suspension Secrets and hoping for a similar outcome, has anyone else on here used them.. They've got a two month lead time which I took as a positive

I took my ‘73 911 to CG a couple of years ago…had previously taken my GT3 and was delighted with the results for that.. My first car “classic” so wasn’t totally sure what to expect from the driving experience. Previous owner had the geo done by a very well known Porsche specialist who are better known for modern GT cars. The good news is the corner weights were absolutely spot on (according to Chris he almost never can leave this alone). However they’d set the car up with too much rake so the front end lacked compliance and the back end the rear wheels had too much toe so were fighting the front end. Absolutely transformed the car….steering was totally transformed, was lighter and had much more feel and the car is just a joy to drive.

The thing is without a lot of background you have nothing to compare with unlike a specialist like Chris. My car seemed fine although a bit hyperactive, I thought that was just the fabled 997 steering. After a visit to CG it was a bit calmer, more planted and just better. I wouldn’t have realised what I was missing without having it set up properly. It sounds like voodoo but it’s just attention to detail and a lot of experience I think

My 992 Touring has just been to CG. They have worked on my 964 for me previously and transformed the drive and comfort experience. I booked the 992 Touring in a few months ago and Chris and Pete told me to get some miles on it before bringing it in to allow suspension settle. I couldn’t personally feel anything too wrong with the car other than a bit too firm/bouncy at low speeds up to 40 MPH. They have already worked on about 15 992 GT3/Touring and have collated data on every car. After a very informative test drive with Chris, they got the car on the ramp and adjusted the geometry and changed the front and rear anti roll bar settings. My car with 1200 careful miles was slightly out of factory geometry settings but nothing drastic. The drive home was mainly motorway so hard to get a good impression on the suspension tweaks. Since having the car home and driving on familiar roads for 150 miles I can say that the ride quality is so much more compliant and the steering wheel no longer gets pulled when the road surface is very uneven. It has made the whole car more relaxing to drive with almost no noticeable different in body roll when cornering hard. It is now perfect for my road use. For info my car runs on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 which are known to have firm sidewalls. I was getting ready to change them for a softer tyre like a P Zero, but I can honestly say I now have no desire/need to change them for a softer tyre, so CG have actually saved me money! I can’t recommend them highly enough and they are lovely people to deal with.

GTS440’s post makes a couple of very good points regarding assuming new cars are set up completely. there is the assumption it was aligned precisely in the first instance there is the undeniable fact brand new springs and suspension do settle This latter part also relevant to old cars with new springs and/or coil overs.

Don’t 992 GT3 have a lot of bump steer as standard, making them a bit skittish on road (I remember Harry Metcalfe remarking about that)? How did Chris dial that out as it sounds he did?

Correct set up from the factory is definitely worth questioning. After 4000 miles on my new 991.2 GTS both rears were badly worn on the inner edges. I changed them and my Indy did the alignment- they lasted 20,000 miles with even wear across the whole width.

starsky67 said: Don’t 992 GT3 have a lot of bump steer as standard, making them a bit skittish on road (I remember Harry Metcalfe remarking about that)? How did Chris dial that out as it sounds he did? He will have just reduced the camber a bit and given a bit of toe in. GTS440, has it changed the steering feel much?

deutsche.diagnostics said: starsky67 said: Don’t 992 GT3 have a lot of bump steer as standard, making them a bit skittish on road (I remember Harry Metcalfe remarking about that)? How did Chris dial that out as it sounds he did? He will have just reduced the camber a bit and given a bit of toe in. GTS440, has it changed the steering feel much? I will only use the car for the road use and so far I would say there is a negligible loss of steering feel, but I’m not sure EPAS systems have that much true feel anyway. What is very noticeable is the lack of skittishness over uneven surfaces and improved low speed ride comfort. These gains far outweigh any minor losses in feel or comfort.

Digga said: GTS440’s post makes a couple of very good points regarding assuming new cars are set up completely. there is the assumption it was aligned precisely in the first instance there is the undeniable fact brand new springs and suspension do settle This latter part also relevant to old cars with new springs and/or coil overs. When you consider that the whole job took around 4 hours including test drive, ARB adjustments, Geometry and final road test, I would say that probably 1.5 to 2 hours were actual geometry adjustment . Even though a GT product, I doubt the Porsche factory allow anywhere near that much time. Chris at CG said they have had cars drop as much as 4mm in ride height in a couple of thousand miles and also seen a similar amount of variation between like for like cars with similar mileage, so even if the factory were spot on at 0 miles everything soon changes, hence as a minimum a geo check is so important on this type of car.

GTS440 said: Chris at CG said they have had cars drop as much as 4mm in ride height in a couple of thousand miles and also seen a similar amount of variation between like for like cars with similar mileage, so even if the factory were spot on at 0 miles everything soon changes, hence as a minimum a geo check is so important on this type of car. Mine’s got 35k miles on it and had dropped about 5mm, so there’s definitely a limit to the settling. Im so heartened to see so many similar experiences with Chris and CG.

GTS440 said: I will only use the car for the road use and so far I would say there is a negligible loss of steering feel, but I’m not sure EPAS systems have that much true feel anyway. What is very noticeable is the lack of skittishness over uneven surfaces and improved low speed ride comfort. These gains far outweigh any minor losses in feel or comfort. Yeah, these cars are so geo dependant, it is incredible how much you can change the overall feel. Good to hear your thoughts on the results, thanks.

Think they're remarkably good value given the impact they have on a car I'd now happily use my 992 GT3 as a daily after the work Chris did

First Sea Lord said: Think they're remarkably good value given the impact they have on a car I'd now happily use my 992 GT3 as a daily after the work Chris did That's exactly how i feel. I won't daily it as i have use of another car but if you really wanted to you could 'live the dream' and do it. The work CG have done has made me want to use the car more rather than saving it for special occasions/drives. Obviously the cost is relatively cheap compared to the cost of a GT3 but i would still have this work done on a car that cost a fraction of the price. Edited by GTS440 on Monday 24th April 14:16

My car was there in some rather special company too.....

Anyone know what their current lead time is right now? Really hoping to finally take my base 997 there before the summer road trip this year! (I know I can call, but if anyone knows... ).

RiccardoG said: Anyone know what their current lead time is right now? Really hoping to finally take my base 997 there before the summer road trip this year! (I know I can call, but if anyone knows... ). Chris did my 997.1 C2S and made a significant improvement. I wanted to try an oldish 911 but wanted it to give the genuine experience, otherwise what’s the point, so the cost of a proper Geo setup is well worth it IMO

maxest said: I've just booked in with Suspension Secrets and hoping for a similar outcome, has anyone else on here used them.. They've got a two month lead time which I took as a positive I've used them for a fast road/trackday geo on my Gt4, to be honest it didn't feel that different after on track. They don't give you any details on what they do, The front looked around 10mm lower and with a tad more camber. Not sure if they touched the ARB's, it had a little less understeer but the rear would wag a little more on the Eccles cakes. I think part of the problem is the front springs maybe a tad soft, I was alway happy with the grip on the rear end. If I wasn't taking the car on track, for me the car was fine for road use as it was. The GT4 is a cracking piece of kit, but its a pity there's not more adjustments without having to spend dosh on topmounts etc.

I take my cars to A-line in Dudley. No need to book. Simple queue system on Saturday mornings. Costs 55 pounds and takes them maybe 30 minutes. No road tests. They put the car on their ramp and get to work.