996 = 911 Armpit

Does it bother you that the 996 is considered to be the armpit of the 911 community? I consider myself a car enthusiast. I have a 996 & have enjoyed it for the year or so I've owned it. However it has begun to bother me the reputation the 996 has. I used to have a Fox Body Mustang that was CLEAN & modified for track use. The car was subtle, and I mostly received comments on the car from "people who knew." I enjoyed that. With the 996 I'll occasionally get comments about it from people who aren't necessarily car people, but "people who know" likely won't express an interest. Part of the reason we own "special" cars is for the pleasure of driving them. But part of the reason is also to draw a little attention. I miss attention from "people who know." My buddy has an '01 Viper for roughly the same $ I paid for my car. THAT car gets attention from everyone. Now, I think my personality is a bit more conservative that tooling around in that car (though occasionally it's fun). But perhaps a 993 or a 964 could bring the best of both worlds (the casual observer and "people who know"). Interested in the input of others.

I would prefer to have no attention! I don't like the image that the cars I drive have to non enthusiasts. The only reason I drive a BMW is because it's the only decent large rwd sedan you can buy with a manual gear box. The cts non v is not as good, the v too expensive and thirsty. The g8 gxp was great, but because of the low production it was more expensive then my certified CPO 535 Msport. Plus I get 22 mpg beating the snot out of it. I wish an American car did everything it does. I would even deal with the new Chevy ss, but no 6 speed. I just wanted the 911 rear engine driving experience, nothing more. If people thing my car is the arm pit of a brand, I am so ok with it. Life is way too short to worry about crap like that. It's like all people that complain the mk1 996 looks like a Boxster. So what?!?!

It used to bother me a little but some things about the car have really won me over to where I really feel good about it. I had under appreciated the 996 when I first bought it but was what I could afford in a 911 at the time. Generally speaking, it is true the car is really all most of us really need for most driving. Yes, of course, there is always faster and newer and better performing no matter what you have. So many enthusiasts see the grass is always greener with what they could go to. I really appreciate the high level of engineering and build quality the PORSCHE 996 and how it feels to drive as a top five percentile of all vehicles. Also, over the past 1.5 years of owning it, I have kept it stock but perfected it in every way I could in a cosmetic way inside and out and love the way it looks. I've been in many conversations with various car guys where it ends with someone saying "someday I"ll own a 911". And, I have walked back to my car from a store where nice people were taking in candid shots of it and admitting they love the look of the 911. I don't let those other opinions of a few bother me any more. I love my car.

OP, sounds like you are seeking some validation and approval from the cars you drive. Not my cup of tea. I don't care for other people's admiration or knowledge of my car. If it was possible I would not tell anyone what I drive. I bought 996 because it was a reasonably priced GT car I could enjoy and not worry about it. I bought it for me to enjoy, and no one else. I have no need to impress others with what I drive. I wanted grey color as it blends in and people don't point at it. And it is old enough to not attract too much of the "well wisher" attention. I often deal with plenty of people who are trying to impress others with their cars and homes. Unfortunately for them, I see their financial situation from the other side. More often than not it is laughable. A top anesthesiologist may be pulling in 1/2 a mil a year while leasing the brand new Gallardo, but at the end of the month the guy still has just $1,500.00 left over after all expenses are paid. On the other hand, a guy trolling around in 15 year old Taurus owns 50+ multi unit rental properties that net him $100,000.00 a month after taxes, and he does not give a single f*ck about impressing others with his car. Such is the reality of modern America.

I like the subtle aspects of the 996.1.

I'm cool with it. I could care less what other people think. Interestingly enough the perception is slowly changing in the Porsche community. The air cooled guys who used to see the 996 as the antichrist now see it as an affordable daily driver Porsche. There are multiple Pelicans that now have a 996 to complement an older 911, some even replacing their air cooled car (gasp). If you get people past their misconceptions and into the driver's seat, it changes a lot of minds.

armpit shmarmpit... if not for the 996 I would have never been able to "get my foot in the door" of the brand and would have never been exposed to the track experience. I remember that never in the 2 years I had my 996 had I head anyone say "oh you have the lesser 911", it was always thumbs up and kudos...

No one has ever said anything off the sort to me. It even took several months of ownership before my girlfriend could actually tell the difference between the 996 and 997 when she saw one on the road. "I saw a 911 today, I'm not sure if it was a 996 or 997" was common. Keith

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I think you bought your car for the wrong reasons. This sense of insecurity you have over your car is sort of sad. You talk about $ paid, 'attention', etc. And you start with a horrible premise in even the title of your post. I regularly attend PCA events, attend multiple DE and AutoX events a year, go on car and coffee drives with other German car clubs - have multiple friends with everything ranging from 356's to 991 GT3's, and NEVER have there been even one snarky comment, one disapproving look. You should sell your car and move on. Thank goodness real enthusiasts don't think like you.

I bought my car for me ...sorry I meant my wife and from where I'm sitting I can't see very much of it but I can certainly feel it. I don't care what anyone else thinks of my C4S, but if viewing it brings any of the joy to someone else that it brings to me then I'm happy to share.

If you get out into the Porsche community and talk to real, live people then you'll rarely if ever hear any negative comments towards the 996. I've never heard it. I think it pops up on forums every now and then, but that's it. If you're considering selling your "lesser" 996 for a 964, be aware that the 964 is considered the armpit of the air-cooled cars. The 993 forum will look down on you, as well as the 911 forum. You can't win. If this really bothers you, then you should consider another brand.

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+1. In all honesty when I first bought my 996 I felt like I had an inferior Porsche. It was a 99, the first water cooled Porsche will ugly headlights. I absolutely loved it and fulfilled a live long dream of owning a Porsche. Since owning it everyone from neighbors, car enthusiasts and Porsche enthusiasts have only made positive comments on the car. I enjoy my car and hope to drive it for many years in good health.

Armpit? is a bit harsh. The 996 being the first water cooled 911 ever was bound to create some hostility in the 911 world. That said since then the 997 and 991 seem to have been better received by the air cooled blowhards. In the December 2013 issue of GTPORSCHE magazine author Peter Morgan mulls over the question "you've got $30k (pounds) to purchase a 911. Do you get a 2007 Carrera S with those funds or "invest" in a older 993" Ultimately he gives the nod to the 997. The 996 is different from the 997 but not by much. While I prefer the 997 headlamps I think the interior layout of the 996 is better. Every generation of 911 has its Achilles heal. The 996's was the IMSB.(which BTW is also present in early 997's) Think of the fact that the internet may have stirred the pot regarding the IMSB issue, prior generations of the 911 really didn't have the internet to fan the flames like the 996 was subjected to. We 996 owners have great cars, Armpits?? I think not.

So, slap on some deodorant and drive.

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You seem desperate for approval from Your friends You concept if car ownership as a Status Symbol is not typical of this forum

I think there is some snobbery but more from car ***** that read the press and don't own a 911, but in truth I haven't met a single porsche driver that was anything but complimentary about my car. Also good 996's are getting rarer as poorly maintained cars die off. It is also fair to say that the 996 is a great drivers car, with a brilliant balance of steering, performance and handling. Like another poster said, I remember the 964 being the 'armpit' 911, even the RS, which now is a cult car and highly collectible. It takes time but these things come around full circle, in years to come we will praise the 996 as one of the last drivers 911's with the 991 and it's successors inevetably getting bigger, heavier and more controlled by electronics. Sometimes I yearn for a 997 GT3, but the $ difference for is just tough to justify, and I'm enjoying subtlety modifying my 40th into the car I love

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good story I grew up next to a guy like that. Quietly bought up houses in the neighborhood here in the bay area until he died of a heart attack at 57. Drove around in beater cars all of his life. His wife told my parents she didn't even know the extent of what they owned until he died. He was a depression era child and just couldn't spend any of it. back on topic: It may be the armpit to the Porsche community but your average person cannot tell the difference between a 996 and the newer models.

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+1. I bought my car because it impressed me.

It is the armpit since the only comments I receive are from guys in contrast I received equal comments from men and women in the Nissan I owned prior to the 996. None the less, I don't purchase vehicles for looks, when it comes to cars I buy the fastest car I can afford as priority 1.

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Interesting enough, some people on this site enjoy "the looks on kids faces" when they drive by.... The last kid I impressed yelled, "wow, nice BMW!" as I drove through the neighborhood.

The only talk of 996 = inferior Porsche = ugly = armpit = ... is on this forum.

I didn't buy the car so people would ooh and aah over the crest on the hood or to keep it in a plastic bubble in the hopes that someday it will be worth exactly the same amount of money i paid for it. There's literally nothing worse than buying something that you really can't use - the guy that owns a 5K mile 993 turbo is scared every time it leaves the garage. If I wrap my 4S around a pole, I'll get another one next weekend. I'm a trader; if everyone is trying to buy something it's too expensive. If everyone is trying to sell something, it has to be cheap.

prior to 996 water cooled cars 1974-1977 2.7ltr air-cooled were the arm pit of Porsches. Go buy one now.

Read this for a different perspective https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...h-a-996-a.html

Opposite camp here as I would prefer much less attention and the presumptions folks make about my cars. I am not a doctor, I am not wealthy, I didn't spend $200K on the cars in my garage, etc. etc. In my seven years of ownership I honestly can't remember any disparaging comments because it was a "996" vs some other Porsche model. In fact, a guy who has owned and tracked a series of P cars, including a 2013 997, stated that in his opinion the 996 was the last series that retained some of the classic Porsche impression, he even commented on the "smell" of the car. After he drove my C4S he was simply amazed at the driving experience compared to his 2012 997 and flat out told me that the cost difference between the models was no where near justified. I have recently been thinking that the best for me would be to own a car that performs as precisely as the 996 but looked like an old Chrysler K car, maybe then I could simply drive in peace. But then again, I bought the cars for no other reason than the driving experience, and I don't confuse who I am with what I drive.

This all over again. Have a read here. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...tep-child.html

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exactly...and thankfully it seems some of those that beat down the 996 even though they own one dont seem to be here anymore. have yet to meet someone who doesnt appreciate the 996/carrera/porsche, and that goes from lay people to pca members to indies to dealer. i get a semi every time i look at my car, never mind drive it, and i consider myself a car enthusiast.

An armpit? That's a bit over the top. True many people took issue with the styling and the shared Boxster parts. And IMS problems don't help, but this still doesn't qualify it as an armpit. My guess is you have been misinformed/ influenced by someone with a little bit of knowledge about the 996, but has never owned one. At the prices they sell for the 996 represents an amazing deal on a high performance sports car. IMO. To the other posters... Just because the OP likes attention doesn't mean he's insecure, shallow or any other of the negative comments. It just means he likes attention. It hardly makes him deserving of personal attacks. Like Mom used to say, "If you don't have anything nice to say maybe you shouldn't say anything at all". Sent from my iPad using Rennlist

"Armpit" to "those in the know" = GREAT value for a 996. For "everyone else", including me, it's just a great car.

I suppose the point to this whole thread is: if you own a 996 and you don't like it because you think it's an "armpit" or because "people in the know" don't give you what you're seeking, then sell the car and buy something else. If you're considering buying a 996 and this concerns you, then buy something else. If you're like the majority of 996 owners and this doesn't concern you, then drive your car and enjoy it.

You know, I remember when the F/A-18 Hornet first came out. It was considered a POS jet because it had zero range and couldn't haul any significant payload. Both the Tomcat and Intruder communities panned it as being a failure as both a fighter and an attack jet. But, over time, with some mods, it became a damn fine warplane and replaced both the Tomcat and the Intruder. Sometimes the old guard can't embrace change, so they mock it. The 996 is simply a better car than what came before, and now the aftermarket has fixed most of its shortcomings.

I appreciate all the response to my post. I expected some hostility given we are all 996 owners & most (if you're interested enough in your car to join a forum) feel a special bond with their choosen automobile. And thank you MtnFlyer for the noted support... I did not buy my car for the purpose of garnering attention. As suggested in my origional post, if I wanted to do that I would have bought something like my friend's Viper. I am mostly interested in a quality car with high performance levels and a quality driving experience. All of these my 996 provides me. And for the $ there were few other options that provided these experiences at the same level. Something that ALSO goes along with ownership of a special car occasionally being noticed. Having any model 911 will draw the occasional "nice car" comment, or glance from someone at a stop light. That's great and again, part of the experience. This is not the reason I bought my car. I guess what I am getting at is; the people that used to notice my Mustang (modified Fox body) were people who knew about Mustangs. There were only a few people that knew by looking at it, that it was above & beyond just being a clean car. I haven't felt like that in my 996. The posts here though have helped me understand that perhaps the "people who know" are even a smaller group than I previously though. Perhaps those people are folks who know what value for money the 996 is. What it's performance levels are at the price you pay. Thank you again for your comments.

uswrnk54 - I re-read your post and I have some comments for you to consider. You believe that the 996 is the "911 armpit" because it isn't known as something special among those who are knowledgable about Porsches. You also mention that you had a special Mustang - a Fox Body and that people who know Mustangs know that it is something special. I have no idea what a Fox Body Mustang is, but I'll take your word for it being special (no need to elaborate on it - I don't want to know what it is). I don't know which variant of the 996 you own, but I presume it's a standard 996, perhaps a C2 or C4. Based on that assumption, it appears to me that you are comparing a standard 996 to a special edition Mustang. If you want to garner respect of Porsche owners who are "in the know", then you should buy a special edition 996. You should own a 996 GT3 or GT2. Maybe you should buy a Turbo S. If you were to buy a 997 C2, or a 964 C2 or even a 993 C2, you would have a standard 911. You wouldn't have something that garners the respect of Porsche owners as some kind of special car. If you want a special 911, then buy a special 911. This isn't just a 996 thing.

When I bought my car, a co-worker Sr VP and who was a car guy found out could not believe it and was adament he wished he got his own one by now... he did not quabble that it was a 996 vs 997... he was in awe, and I still am... nuff said, glad to be in the club! Go Team Porsche!

Internet Forums vs. Reality... IF : "996's are an embarrassment!" Reality : "Cool 911! I've wanted one since I was a kid... Is it a new one?" IF : "M96 engines suck. They have 996 known failure modes and are a time bomb waiting to happen" Reality : "Braaaaaap, [shift] Braaaaaaap [shift] Braaaaaaaap {smile} {repeat x 10,000} IF : "996 are depreciating like a rock, worth almost nothing" Reality : Buy a clean, maintained, documented 996 without looking for the absolute cheapest one, and it will probably depreciate about 4%/yr. One heck of a lot of fun for the bucks. IF : "Real Porsches are air cooled!" Reality : Progress is a bitch best explained to others on your local race track. IF : "993's and other oil cooled 911's are an investment!" Reality : Very few cars are investment quality, and if they are, you probably don't want to be driving them. Which defeats the whole point of buying a 996. I put the extra $$ it would have cost me to buy a pristine 993 vs. my pristine 996 into TSLA and it would now buy a 991. But I don't want a 991... I want my 996. A relatively inexpensive sports car, easy to work on myself, well into the flat part of the depreciation curve, and an absolute blast to drive. *maybe* I'll treat myself one of these days and upgrade to a 996 turbo.

An interesting read for a prospective buyer. I've long been engaged in the 996 vs 997 debate. I do think the 997 is a better looking car.....but not by that much. Frankly, I find that the value of the 996 is incredible - compared to any other brand of car. After reading this and seeing everyone's enthusiasm for their 996, my mind is made up. A 996 it will be......I'll save some money and have just as much fun.

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Many of the 993 guys in PNW look down at all the water pumpers. I like 'em all.

Dude....I've owned them all over the years and current have a 997TT. I think I had the most fun with a 996 4S that I owned 5years ago as a play Porsche because I moded the **** out of it. Really personalized the interior and drove the wheels off of it because it was at a price point that I felt more comfortable playing like this. It is a Porsche....drive it with pride and drive it for you not everyone else!

I love my car. Everyone that knows me loves my car. My brother in law sat in it, ran his hand over the dash and said I cannot believe I am riding in Porsche. I look forward to driving to work.....not because of my job, but because of the 996. Sure, do I wish the engine was a little more rock solid...yes...but the 996 is why I can drive a Porsche and make every off and on ramp an adventure! I am very proud of my beautiful daily driver. She is my only car and I stand by her...this car may not be for you. You may be more of a Corvette guy...and there is nothing wrong with that.

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I worried about every little noise my motor made until after my first track day. After that I swear it quit making any!

This thread reinforces my belief the Porsche owners generally fall I to two groups. Enthusiasts and posers :/

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I agree. Now, we need to get people trash-talking 997.2's a lot more, because I want one of those too. And a 996 or 997 TT.

Troll feeding is bad...starve the troll.

Its funny really, I've no negative comments about my 996 a few about my old 944 but they were all from idiots who I wouldn't consider there opinion on any subject worth entertaining. I find my self more often talking the 996 down when at customers because people assume its a expensive and therefore I charge too much smh. I bought both cars because there cheap and a great deal of fun to drive and own. I do get positive comments form random strangers, friends and other Porsche owners.

I have yet to have someone downtalk the 996 around me or so. Some people say they shouldn't have given them boxster headlights but they don't say it isn't pretty.

It would be hard to shift without armpits.

this debate is endless, not the first and last time.... to the OP and others.... take your car to the track, you'll soon realize that you are the "armpit" and not the 996. It'll take years to learn how to drive this car 9/10's. This is where the value of the 996 lies... and this discussion will become meaningless once you find out the genius of the 996 at the track... you owe it to yourself to find out, after all this is ultimately why most of us bought into the Porsche brand.

What Ferd said. Those who have not been to the track have no idea what the car is capable of.

The 996 was the fastest, lightest, most powerful, best handling 911 to date when it was released. Just keep that in mind.

No matter what Porsche you drive there is no substitute. Even with their problems.

You're in the club. Sure, there are some d-bags (and that is precisely what they are!) who get snotty about not driving the latest and "greatest". All I can think about as I punch the throttle and separate myself from traffic is "this must be what the first guys flying the F-15 felt like". It's all about how I feel, not anyone else. Revel in the experience, screw everyone else. TC

I am happy, I just transferred from the Boxster forum. However, over there, enthusiasts' love their car too. "Each is own."

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Amen that this comment.

some armpits are sweet, my girlfriend has beautiful sexy shaved armpits

Look...I found the cheapest 996 I could find and now that I got it I drive it every day and enjoy it without reservations. I know cars...how to maintain them...and I love my 996. I call her "Old Reliable". The most reliable car I've ever owned, and I've owned all kinds. I take care of the maintenance myself, and I try to keep it in the best shape I can, but let's face it...it's my daily driver, so it's taking a beating like a normal car does. door dings...front and rear bumpers taking a beating due to people who don't care...and even a little bit of vandalism from jerks(somebody slashed the rear plastic window a little bit). When the rubber meets the road: It gets 21.7mpg...and when I punch it on the LA freeway, it is so much fun. I tear a** with more confidence than I ever had in my BMW. Hell, it's a PORSCHE!!!! Someday I might upgrade to something more amazing like a 996 Turbo...but for now I'll settle for being the dirtbag driver that I am. I do it for the chicks. the girl I'm dating now says I need to replace the rear window...get it painted a cool color like black or something...etc...I told her "maybe so...". It's nice that she thinks its worth the trouble I love all these comments and everybody makes good points. So sure if you want more cred among the 911 crowd, you are going to have to pay a lot more $$$$. But as most of us have found out....90 percent of the population doesn't know crap about the different models--they ALL look the same to them. I finally joined PCA because I'm proud of the car's performance--it IS a world class sports car.

I reckon that for many (me included) the 996 is the idealmodel. Not so new that you feel nervous about modding or developing it, lots of specialists and parts available, modern enough for a long roadtrip and not "classic" enough to be terrified of driving it properly or taking it out in the rain.....

Another candidate for my desired "hide stupid thread" feature I want.

In the spirit the this useless thread I will just say it could be worse, the 996 could be considered the "taint" of the Porsche family. You guys need to just enjoy your damn cars

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You mean our cars could be like the Mondials of Ferraris?

When I see true 911 folks paying 70 grand for a rust bucket like this, just to put another 70 grand into it and still have a car that is not even half as capable as the 996 - and one that will most likely end up sadly relegated to the corner of the garage for a decade or more only to be eventually sold at auction to settle a divorce decree. No. I drive mine daily and it's a joy. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-Porsche...p2047675.l2557

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JEEEz there are 19 bids on that thing. Oh BTW I do wish there was a way to kill this stupid thread.

I like this thread.....it is awesome to finally see some positive comments on this forum.

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This may be the most impressive trolling to date in the 996 forum. OP, you get any better at trolling, you'll need to move under a bridge and start talking smack to billy goats.

Without armpits, Porsche would be an armless torso. The 996 has idiosyncrasies, but when released it was "the best 911 ever." A glut of inventory (the 996 was leased in mass numbers) plus some very well-known problems has undercut the value of these cars, but the things that made the 996 the best 911 to date when it was released (as the reviews of the day almost unanimously agreed) are still great bullet points. I have no idea if the 996 will rebound in value...I'm not holding my breath, but it would be cool. It doesn't matter - I bought this car to drive, not to preserve. The best 911 ever made is the one you can afford to put in your garage. The 996 is a dream come true for more than a few of us. I personally don't care if some of the air-cooled guys don't like the 996, nor do I care that the interior isn't upholstered with hand-stitched baby unicorn foreskins.

". ..baby unicorn foreskins." LOL WIN!

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Is that an "Exclusive" option on the 991?

1st Porsche...bought new in 2000 - so proud ha!. Leaked oil from day #1 & electrical issues. Dumped after 6 mo....whew! Took 13 years to try Porsche again. So far so good.

When I bought it (996.2), the only thing I had against it were the headlight; now they are fine! Still not keen on fried eggs though.

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Same for me! Except, I've actually reversed my decision a bit and I think I prefer the mkI headlights over the mkII now.

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