Keep TC on for trackdays in your Porsche? - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

A couple of wet trackdays recently in my 718 made me wonder what the correct strategy is. It will depend on the model and driver experience, so I’ll state mine: 718 GTS 20 trackdays Sport+, stability control ON, sometimes half-off (“Dynamic” setting, i.e. press button once, but don’t keep it pressed 3 secs to turn completely off) In a slower car (MX5 NC which I used for trackdays before the Cayman) I was happy to turn TC off, also because it was rather awful if on. However in the 718 the system is better and risks higher so I keep it as above. Thoughts anyone?

TC probably saved me last year at high speed at a wet Anglesey in my 996 turbo.

so many variables but for me the key would be whether insured on track, rich enough to swallow the cost of a prang, or neither oh, and also the runoff. I've been a lot more careful at Goodwood then Bedford for instance...

I always leave Traction Control on ... I have done Ice Driving and I would like to think that I can catch a car before it throws me off, but the simple fact is that TC works faster than my brain can ... It must also be said that in Sports Mode the Traction Control does give more leeway, and Porsche calibrate it extremely well. If you are driving very fast (and nicely) you may mot even see the flickering light. If you aren't and you do see it, you need it To be fair, the learning is in the experience and there is nothing to lose from a helping hand so long as you learn form it ...

I agree completely with Chris here. The Porsche systems are pretty good and generally tidy you up (if needed) and only intervene to save you from yourself, rather than being more nannying in the way that some other manufacturers' systems can be. I'd say it also partially depends on your driving style. If you tend to be naturally neat and precise, the Porsche systems won't slow you down if you leave them on . If you are a bit more lairy, the systems may slow you down more. Note that the above is based on my experience of Porsche's mid-engined cars rather than their rear-engined cars, and my other manufacturer references points are Audi (leave them off) and BMW (it depends, but certainly put them in their most relaxed setting as a minimum).

Chris - how about ESC ? I

Helier said: Chris - how about ESC ? I I think everyone is talking about ESC really.

Well you have the ESC off option before ESC & TC.

The exact reason why I bought an old Civic for track duties. I couldn’t afford to crash my GT4, so the driving aids stayed on and I didn’t push it above 8/10ths. Slow car fast > fast car slow

Isn't it PSM ? Either way ... I select sport mode and generally leave the rest on .... There have been occasions when I struggled for grip out of tight corners but I don't now if switching stability off would have made it any better ? The car has an LSD so I guess the throttle would be managed at the limit of slip ...

ChrisW. said: Isn't it PSM ? Either way ... I select sport mode and generally leave the rest on .... There have been occasions when I struggled for grip out of tight corners but I don't now if switching stability off would have made it any better ? The car has an LSD so I guess the throttle would be managed at the limit of slip ... It is PSM I had in mind. So my settings are Sport+, and PSM on or partially off, but not fully off

I can't recall my GT4 having a Sport Plus ... is this just for PDK equipped cars ? PSM is a system that learns, so if it needs to intervene it will look to intervene ... if if doesn't need to intervene it re-learns the parameters and gives a more free rein but it's still there at a point. If you disconnect PSM I think it stays out until both front wheel abs sensors are operational for a certain time and switches itself back on ... So driving with soft hands (which does not need to be slow) and leaving PSM on is a good way of getting the best out of a car which is not a race car. In fact the early GT3R's from twenty years ago did not even have abs ... With everything off and driving roughly (which is showboating) whilst you need quick hands it is generally speaking, not fast. Rally stages and ice driving excepted where provoking the attitude of the car on a relatively low grip surface can be the fastest way around a corner ... Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 26th November 13:56

With these systems I see the question as "why turn them off"? rather than "why leave them on?"

It depends what you wish to achieve. If you want the absolute fastest lap time then switch it all off. If you want to enjoy your driving knowing that the systems will most likely stop you from binning it - leave it on. If you have a system that allows some slip but will save you, leave that on and have some more fun. Ultimately there's only one way to truly master the car though....... balls and skill required and not everybody has that.

There is rather more in my view. Every driver has their own skill set and limits. Every driver needs to learn ... exprience and then if you wish to take it further, qualified coaching is essential. If you wish to race you will then need to learn race craft ... more experience. There is only one safe way to set about gaining the experience and that is by leaving PSM on, taking tuition and good advice, and when the the time is right you may see some benefit from turning the PSM off ... building speeds incrementally. Consistency is extremely important in the learning process, it's the probing at these limits where the learning can safely be found. IMHO !

It’s personal preference, comfort level, confidence and experience. Porsche sports cars chassis (and many other sports cars] are developed on a baseline of systems OFF as they have to be able to work and not be spooky in situation beyond the operable parameters of the systems. But then you find that most of the fast lap times… N’ring records are set with systems ON, or in their sportiest setting. Porsche systems calibration is standout in the industry… and really only triggers if something really detrimental is imminent. The GT cars in particular allow the driver quite a lot of room to play, and then the intervention is intuitive and progressive. For GT cars.. aside from drive modes starting in the 992 gen… you just have ESC OFF and ESC+TC OFF for PSM control. ESC OFF is useful on dry tracks to stop excessive interference from rear brake assisted PTV and EBD. ESC+TC OFF gives as above and also complete control of the throttle and torque demand applied to the driven wheels. Personally, to date, I either leave all systems On or sometimes ESC OFF dependent on the course and conditions. Sport button in GT4 (renamed Auto-Blip) does not officially change any driving system characteristic other enabling rev-matching and manually overriding 3rd Rad thermostat…

Thanks T, So it is ESC and TC. Is it correct that the systems reconnect themselves if both front wheel abs triggers for a certain time ? I remember once being at Donington with a chap who had just bought a Turbo S and invited me for a passenger ride. He was doing 1.24's and asked if I thought he should switch off the stability systems he would go faster. My reply was that in my view it was the Porsche stability systems that were keeping him out of trouble and I would not get in the car with him without them. It was amazing how much they were doing. I think he was flat on the throttle or flat on the brake, with no skill or understanding of what was really happening ... Needless to say, I didn't want to go back out with him. The car was doing everything. But it was a very interesting experience ...

ChrisW. said: There is only one safe way to set about gaining the experience and that is by leaving PSM on, taking tuition and good advice, and when the the time is right you may see some benefit from turning the PSM off ... building speeds incrementally. I'd have to disagree with that. It's imo definitely not that leaving PSM is the only safe way to gain that experience but it certainly is a useful way to do so. The tuition and advice bit plus copious amounts of time at the wheel that really makes the difference. As TDT says later, I'd say it's very much a personal preference thing coupled with the gen of car. The 991s onwards are very very well calibrated to work with PSM/ESC on. The 997s are ime not quite so seamless.....

Good to have other views ... now pick the bones from that. Thinking back, I learn on a 964RS that had an extra 60bhp and no PSM / ESC or TC, just ABS. My real concern is that the later cars are now sooooo fast ...

The TC/ESC is a lot more permissive in GT cars in its programming than in the non GT stuff. I recall Walter Rohrl saying a good driver shouldn’t be any slower with it turned on. That said I am a ham fisted oaf and have had a few moments with it turned on, and will be always leaving it on, I have still had quite a bit of slip angle with it on and suspect it saved me a few times.

I have done lots of track miles in many models of Porsche and the car will be much quicker and better to drive with esc off and you learn better car control but it is a good aid on a track that is easy to bend the car on whilst learning. When it is wet the limits are much lower…that is the time to turn it all off and learn what the car is doing and how to control it.

ChrisW. said: Is it correct that the systems reconnect themselves if both front wheel abs triggers for a certain time ? I believe in non GT cars an ABS event will turn the traction control back on, whereas in GT cars when it’s switched all the way off it doesn’t come back regardless of ABS activation. Think I read this in the owners manual.

Caddyshack said: When it is wet the limits are much lower…that is the time to turn it all off and learn what the car is doing and how to control it. A lot of value in this if you’re brave enough. Don’t have to go fast, but great for learning about the car and yourself.

TDT said: Caddyshack said: When it is wet the limits are much lower…that is the time to turn it all off and learn what the car is doing and how to control it. A lot of value in this if you’re brave enough. Don’t have to go fast, but great for learning about the car and yourself. Perfect opportunity to learn the car at lower speeds, and you'll have a virtually empty track I did a track day with Greystone at Donington in June, very busy until it rained there was me and an MP12 4C out there, everyone else went in

Only time I’ve really driven my GT3 with the systems off is at the PEC on their Performance Day with an instructor (who I have also used privately). Without a doubt the car has a different feel and I think you learn more about your driving with it off but I am nowhere near a good enough driver to contemplate taking it off on track proper.

I raced a Cayman, in Class B. For example. Anglesey in torrential rain with all systems off I was the fastest car on the track for many laps, BUT, driver error saw me spin at Church. With the traction switched on the car was circa a second slower per lap. At Snett 300 the difference between systems on, and systems off is @1.5 seconds in the dry. This is racing though. The only reason I've posted this here is to show that the car can go quicker with it all off. The risk you run however..... For what, where track days are concerned isn't a fat lot of gain. You're there to enjoy the track, the car and have fun.

Rojibo said: ChrisW. said: Is it correct that the systems reconnect themselves if both front wheel abs triggers for a certain time ? I believe in non GT cars an ABS event will turn the traction control back on, whereas in GT cars when it’s switched all the way off it doesn’t come back regardless of ABS activation. Think I read this in the owners manual. Yes, I found that on a boxster s the abs would bring the esp back on…not sure if there was 2 levels of removal on some earlier Boxsters?

993rsr said: TDT said: Caddyshack said: When it is wet the limits are much lower…that is the time to turn it all off and learn what the car is doing and how to control it. A lot of value in this if you’re brave enough. Don’t have to go fast, but great for learning about the car and yourself. Perfect opportunity to learn the car at lower speeds, and you'll have a virtually empty track I did a track day with Greystone at Donington in June, very busy until it rained there was me and an MP12 4C out there, everyone else went in My friends love to remind me of the time I spun off 6 times in 1 lap on a wet track whilst learning the limits in a GT3 996.1

ChrisW. said: I can't recall my GT4 having a Sport Plus ... is this just for PDK equipped cars ? Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 26th November 13:56 My 718 GTS has PDK but I thought the difference between Sport and Sport+ was about more than just gearbox operation (and btw there’s definitely a difference in that). For instance, comjng out of corners, particularly really slow ones, if I step in the throttle too heavily, it feels to me like in Sport the car is using brakes to keep traction, while Sport+ does not give more power. I could be completely wrong though.

In the later Porsches ESC & TC will only harshly interfere If the driver is not on par with his inputs. If you are doing the right things interference is minimal. I understand everyone who leaves it on as a safeguard. Earlier cars (997 etc.) will go through rear brakes quite excessively more wear on later cars, but not too bad. The problem is you need to notice when the system is interfering and/or saving you - many people I see don't have any real feeling for the limits of the car as they get constantly saved by the system without realizing it - and would not last a single corner without the systems (possibly like the Turbo S jockey that was mentioned here). I completely agree with caddyshack regarding the wet - pick a save corner and have a play with the limits of the car. Speeds are much slower, lower forces - all giving you much more time to control the car. That aside, drift type trainings in the wet or on ice are best to increase car control skills and program that muscle memory!

So an interesting variety of suggestions and thoughts here ... there is no one-size fits all ... and there are relatively safe ways of "taking a flyer" Interestingly I know a lot of racers who tell me they turn ESC / PSM (depending upon the generation of car) back on in the wet, and as TNT mentioned, the fastest Nurburgring times appear to be set with stability controls on ... but driven by the most experienced drivers who are clearly given the tools to do their job. 'An intriguing question ...

I agree with Chris ! I don't do many track days but Ron who owns RSR at Spa told me politely that - there at least - if he saw any of us running in the wet/dry conditions without them on he would ask us to leave as we would just end up ruining everyone's day. He said the Porsche ones are very good and leave a fair I still have another 8 seconds to find there and it's nothing to do with PSM/ESC. I am also told to turn them off for hill climbing but I can tell you that they have helped me enormously in the wet you can feel the cut in - it is quite late in my GT4 and I have to be really overdriving to feel it. Mind you I am still on the same rear discs the car came with after 4 days at Spa and three at Silverstone and 20k miles so I am probably not trying hard enough at all and may not be the best yard stick! Snowy

Traction control definitely saved me spinning out on a very damp Clark Curve at Brands Hatch recently

Not sure how many layers of stuff my 997.1 GT3 actually has. IME for wet track use, I leave TC on. I also leave engine in normal mode, not sport, as the latter does increase allowable slip angles. For dry tracks, I tend to believe (could be wrong) everything plays nicer with TC off. (I have a Guards Transmission LSD.)Now IIRC, there is still some residual TC on even then. If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off.

Digga said: If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off. Uh....in the 997 isn't it just a sports exhaust thing that is mainly irrelevant high revs rather than sport throttle?

Digga said: Not sure how many layers of stuff my 997.1 GT3 actually has. IME for wet track use, I leave TC on. I also leave engine in normal mode, not sport, as the latter does increase allowable slip angles. For dry tracks, I tend to believe (could be wrong) everything plays nicer with TC off. (I have a Guards Transmission LSD.)Now IIRC, there is still some residual TC on even then. If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off. Dry track the limits are higher but a lot more energy at work, when it does let go it can also snap back harder in the dry. The wet is the place to learn car control as it all happens at lower speeds and comes back much slower. 911's have a reputation but once you understand them they tend to be easier to slide than most other cars.... if you lift off the front tucks in and the rear goes light to increase the slide, if you use throttle the weight goes to the back and the grip returns. If you understeer then you have to fight the logic of adding more steering angle and actually wind off the lock and the grip returns, tyres work best in a straight line. The one below was a lift on the way in to make the rear light and the front tuck, wait for the rear to swing and then feather the throttle to keep the slide going. It doesn't need much steering angle as the throttle does that. Eventually you can bury the throttle, unwind the lock and it will drive out of the slide. It is simple but not easy and just takes practice.

Caddyshack said: Dry track the limits are higher but a lot more energy at work, when it does let go it can also snap back harder in the dry. The wet is the place to learn car control as it all happens at lower speeds and comes back much slower. 911's have a reputation but once you understand them they tend to be easier to slide than most other cars.... if you lift off the front tucks in and the rear goes light to increase the slide, if you use throttle the weight goes to the back and the grip returns. If you understeer then you have to fight the logic of adding more steering angle and actually wind off the lock and the grip returns, tyres work best in a straight line. The one below was a lift on the way in to make the rear light and the front tuck, wait for the rear to swing and then feather the throttle to keep the slide going. It doesn't need much steering angle as the throttle does that. Eventually you can bury the throttle, unwind the lock and it will drive out of the slide. It is simple but not easy and just takes practice. Very simple once you know how to use the mass of the engine. Did loads of limit handling before I started track days 25+ years ago.

One point worth noting is that these systems are banned from most forms of professional racing. There's a reason for that.

I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong. I used to wish for wet track days and that is a bonus in the UK. Don Palmers' "wetter the better" course was brilliant at Mira, We learned so much there and then on to Bedford for hours and hours sliding about as they used to almost encourage it when it first opened. We used to take a pick up truck as our back up wagon (Mk1 Golf Caddy with 1.8t engine swap) with spare wheels in the back as it was common to do 2 or 3 sets of tyres in a day. I have done a lot of spins in various 993 Rs over the years...they are a little bit too valuable to go bonkers in now though. Edited by Caddyshack on Monday 28th November 15:21

Caddyshack said: I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong. Thoroughly agree, only by practicing over the limit car control (with all systems off) can you develop real driving skills. It's telling to me that when someone posts up a crash video involving oversteer there's usually a layman's inquest into every possible reason why the car might have lost grip - the conditions, the tyres, too much throttle, ad infinitum. Yet in many cases if they knew how to control the car over the limit of grip then they'd simply have collected it up and continued off down the road.

Panamax said: One point worth noting is that these systems are banned from most forms of professional racing. There's a reason for that. They are allowed e.g. in V-type classes in NLS/VLN. We also run a 2.5T Cayman (and did other naturally aspirated ones in the past). The systems work brilliantly both, on slicks (in Sport Plus) and on wets (in Sport). Also the pros keep them on

Olivera said: Caddyshack said: I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong. Thoroughly agree, only by practicing over the limit car control (with all systems off) can you develop real driving skills. It's telling to me that when someone posts up a crash video involving oversteer there's usually a layman's inquest into every possible reason why the car might have lost grip - the conditions, the tyres, too much throttle, ad infinitum. Yet in many cases if they knew how to control the car over the limit of grip then they'd simply have collected it up and continued off down the road. Very good point. I will make sure I teach my daughter. My dad took me out in his 528i bmw e28 with l plates on at 17. He made sure I could slide on wet roundabouts I can remember him saying “it’s gonna happen when I am not in the car so you need to show me you can handle it when I am”. We moved ion to lift off oversteer in an mg metro when I passed my test.

Caddyshack said: I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong. I used to wish for wet track days and that is a bonus in the UK. Don Palmers' "wetter the better" course was brilliant at Mira, We learned so much there and then on to Bedford for hours and hours sliding about as they used to almost encourage it when it first opened. We used to take a pick up truck as our back up wagon (Mk1 Golf Caddy with 1.8t engine swap) with spare wheels in the back as it was common to do 2 or 3 sets of tyres in a day. I have done a lot of spins in various 993 Rs over the years...they are a little bit too valuable to go bonkers in now though. Edited by Caddyshack on Monday 28th November 15:21 Absolutely re your point on limit handling. We spent loads of time at Bruntingthorpe where even oversteer at 3 figure speeds gave you nothing to hit if you messed up. Then when it happens on the confines of the track (or the road if it where to happen) your reactions are completely intuitive. I did a day at Mira with Don at the 'wetter the better' and did not get on with him. My tuition was from a great guy from Leeds called Paul Ripley who was a car control master, along with being a Diamond ROSPA instructor and many other accolades. Fabulous guy, great fun and personality and I was like a sponge in my 20's just soaking up the tuition! Many happy and enjoyable years in the early 90's learning limit handling and defensive driving techniques.

993rsr said: Caddyshack said: I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong. I used to wish for wet track days and that is a bonus in the UK. Don Palmers' "wetter the better" course was brilliant at Mira, We learned so much there and then on to Bedford for hours and hours sliding about as they used to almost encourage it when it first opened. We used to take a pick up truck as our back up wagon (Mk1 Golf Caddy with 1.8t engine swap) with spare wheels in the back as it was common to do 2 or 3 sets of tyres in a day. I have done a lot of spins in various 993 Rs over the years...they are a little bit too valuable to go bonkers in now though. Edited by Caddyshack on Monday 28th November 15:21 Absolutely re your point on limit handling. We spent loads of time at Bruntingthorpe where even oversteer at 3 figure speeds gave you nothing to hit if you messed up. Then when it happens on the confines of the track (or the road if it where to happen) your reactions are completely intuitive. I did a day at Mira with Don at the 'wetter the better' and did not get on with him. My tuition was from a great guy from Leeds called Paul Ripley who was a car control master, along with being a Diamond ROSPA instructor and many other accolades. Fabulous guy, great fun and personality and I was like a sponge in my 20's just soaking up the tuition! Many happy and enjoyable years in the early 90's learning limit handling and defensive driving techniques. I found Bruntingthorpe was bad for stone chips and shredded the tyres over the expansion gaps when sliding fast but a great place to learn.

Dr S said: Panamax said: One point worth noting is that these systems are banned from most forms of professional racing. There's a reason for that. They are allowed e.g. in..... Also the pros keep them on My point entirely!

Caddyshack said: 993rsr said: Caddyshack said: I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong. I used to wish for wet track days and that is a bonus in the UK. Don Palmers' "wetter the better" course was brilliant at Mira, We learned so much there and then on to Bedford for hours and hours sliding about as they used to almost encourage it when it first opened. We used to take a pick up truck as our back up wagon (Mk1 Golf Caddy with 1.8t engine swap) with spare wheels in the back as it was common to do 2 or 3 sets of tyres in a day. I have done a lot of spins in various 993 Rs over the years...they are a little bit too valuable to go bonkers in now though. Edited by Caddyshack on Monday 28th November 15:21 Absolutely re your point on limit handling. We spent loads of time at Bruntingthorpe where even oversteer at 3 figure speeds gave you nothing to hit if you messed up. Then when it happens on the confines of the track (or the road if it where to happen) your reactions are completely intuitive. I did a day at Mira with Don at the 'wetter the better' and did not get on with him. My tuition was from a great guy from Leeds called Paul Ripley who was a car control master, along with being a Diamond ROSPA instructor and many other accolades. Fabulous guy, great fun and personality and I was like a sponge in my 20's just soaking up the tuition! Many happy and enjoyable years in the early 90's learning limit handling and defensive driving techniques. I found Bruntingthorpe was bad for stone chips and shredded the tyres over the expansion gaps when sliding fast but a great place to learn. But is this the way that most Leisure / Fun / Sport Porsche drivers are likely to drive their cars, or want to learn to drive their cars ? I agree that sliding wet and slow is safer ... just keep it off the grass / most paint / and preferably run on normal road tyres ... start slow and build it up ... this also gets the tyres warm ...

ChrisW. said: Caddyshack said: 993rsr said: Caddyshack said: I think the on limit handling is the key to going faster as once you lose the fear of it sliding you can try many more options and push much harder knowing that you can gather it up if is goes wrong. I used to wish for wet track days and that is a bonus in the UK. Don Palmers' "wetter the better" course was brilliant at Mira, We learned so much there and then on to Bedford for hours and hours sliding about as they used to almost encourage it when it first opened. We used to take a pick up truck as our back up wagon (Mk1 Golf Caddy with 1.8t engine swap) with spare wheels in the back as it was common to do 2 or 3 sets of tyres in a day. I have done a lot of spins in various 993 Rs over the years...they are a little bit too valuable to go bonkers in now though. Edited by Caddyshack on Monday 28th November 15:21 Absolutely re your point on limit handling. We spent loads of time at Bruntingthorpe where even oversteer at 3 figure speeds gave you nothing to hit if you messed up. Then when it happens on the confines of the track (or the road if it where to happen) your reactions are completely intuitive. I did a day at Mira with Don at the 'wetter the better' and did not get on with him. My tuition was from a great guy from Leeds called Paul Ripley who was a car control master, along with being a Diamond ROSPA instructor and many other accolades. Fabulous guy, great fun and personality and I was like a sponge in my 20's just soaking up the tuition! Many happy and enjoyable years in the early 90's learning limit handling and defensive driving techniques. I found Bruntingthorpe was bad for stone chips and shredded the tyres over the expansion gaps when sliding fast but a great place to learn. But is this the way that most Leisure / Fun / Sport Porsche drivers are likely to drive their cars, or want to learn to drive their cars ? I agree that sliding wet and slow is safer ... just keep it off the grass / most paint / and preferably run on normal road tyres ... start slow and build it up ... this also gets the tyres warm ... It is in response to the thread being about wet track days and keeping the TC on or off. I would have thought track day drivers want to learn.

It's not unexpected, but I think we are now starting to probe the boundaries between a hobby and a semi-professional ....

ChrisW. said: It's not unexpected, but I think we re now starting to probe the boundaries between a hobby and a semi-professional .... Not at all, limit handling and car control are there to allow you to maintain control 'in extremis' whether that be planned or unplanned! If you are going to exploit anywhere near the potential of your GT car you need to know how to maximize your control window.

I guess it's down to how much time and resource people want to invest ... Slow is of course relative and the theory and practice of car control is great, but practice is an ongoing exercise. At the risk of labouring this video from my Racing Cayman, I was a slow racing driver and the PSM was on ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-5LTaoat4I The practicing also assumes plenty of space ....

isaldiri said: Digga said: If you look at in car videos of these 997 cars, you can often see if the driver's got all boxes ticked, because there will be three LEDs in front of the gear shift, from left to right; suspension in firm mode, sport throttle, TC off. Uh....in the 997 isn't it just a sports exhaust thing that is mainly irrelevant high revs rather than sport throttle? No, not so. More aggressive map and sharper throttle response: http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1507345

Digga said: No, not so. More aggressive map and sharper throttle response: http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1507345 Can it be that in my 718 GTS the Sport / Sport+ buttons also affect when PSM kicks in? I got the sense that with either of those on, a small slide was possible before the systems interfered.

ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS

ldn_mx5] said: Can it be that in my 718 GTS the Sport / Sport+ buttons also affect when PSM kicks in? I got the sense that with either of those on, a small slide was possible before the systems interfered. Having looked at the Good To Know app.. Drive modes do NOT affect PSM mode in your car. They are separate. PSM Sport is only via the button on the center tunnel console. If you are getting more slide when changing drive modes… it might be that the extra urgent throttle response is just enough to overcome the tyres in normal mode. Edited by TDT on Tuesday 29th November 17:19

130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations.

Digga said: 130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. I expect a GT3 RS would have a very clever setup and could well go faster with it on. An old Boxster on a track day will cut the power hard and really slow you down. Edit to add- just re read the OP….718 isn’t and old boxster…I was thinking 981.

Digga said: I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. Yes, 991

Digga said: 130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. Quite try a 996 GT3..... TC is permanently off & you have no choice in that.

GT03ROB said: Digga said: 130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. Quite try a 996 GT3..... TC is permanently off & you have no choice in that. You have to make do with a note from your mum asking it to play nice.

Digga said: GT03ROB said: Digga said: 130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. Quite try a 996 GT3..... TC is permanently off & you have no choice in that. You have to make do with a note from your mum asking it to play nice. Peter wheeler said my Cerbera had SRF (sensitive right foot)

Caddyshack said: Digga said: GT03ROB said: Digga said: 130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. Quite try a 996 GT3..... TC is permanently off & you have no choice in that. You have to make do with a note from your mum asking it to play nice. Peter wheeler said my Cerbera had SRF (sensitive right foot) Said that about my Griffith 500 too. O/T loved that race number.

Digga said: Caddyshack said: Digga said: GT03ROB said: Digga said: 130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. Quite try a 996 GT3..... TC is permanently off & you have no choice in that. You have to make do with a note from your mum asking it to play nice. Peter wheeler said my Cerbera had SRF (sensitive right foot) Said that about my Griffith 500 too. O/T loved that race number. Works upside down too (winky smilie)

GT03ROB said: Quite try a 996 GT3..... TC is permanently off & you have no choice in that. was just gonna say that i don't really get to chose - cable throttle on top of that... at least i got a cup abs module...

Caddyshack said: Digga said: Caddyshack said: Digga said: GT03ROB said: Digga said: 130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. Quite try a 996 GT3..... TC is permanently off & you have no choice in that. You have to make do with a note from your mum asking it to play nice. Peter wheeler said my Cerbera had SRF (sensitive right foot) Said that about my Griffith 500 too. O/T loved that race number. Works upside down too (winky smilie) Nearly had to. There’s a big bank the other side of that tyre wall. That picture is on the way down. At one point I remember looking over the barrier, down the bank.

Digga said: Caddyshack said: Digga said: GT03ROB said: Digga said: 130R said: ESC off, TC on is what I have seen pro drivers run with the GT3 RS I am assuming 991, not 997? Systems are not the same across models and generations. Quite try a 996 GT3..... TC is permanently off & you have no choice in that. You have to make do with a note from your mum asking it to play nice. Peter wheeler said my Cerbera had SRF (sensitive right foot) Said that about my Griffith 500 too. O/T loved that race number. Where was that diga,them tvr used to twist going around corners with all the brut power;)

Yellow491 said: Where was that diga,them tvr used to twist going around corners with all the brut power;) Three Sisters, Wigan. Apparently you do need to brake going over the summit. Mine had a full cage and twisted much less. Even the half cage I had made appreciable difference. Anyway, what TC settings do you use on the RSR?

Digga said: Yellow491 said: Where was that diga,them tvr used to twist going around corners with all the brut power;) Three Sisters, Wigan. Apparently you do need to brake going over the summit. Mine had a full cage and twisted much less. Even the half cage I had made appreciable difference. Anyway, what TC settings do you use on the RSR? Thought I recognised it,always slippery fun sprints at 3 sisters. Tc on the rsr is about 100mm of throttle movement

Yellow491 said: Digga said: Yellow491 said: Where was that diga,them tvr used to twist going around corners with all the brut power;) Three Sisters, Wigan. Apparently you do need to brake going over the summit. Mine had a full cage and twisted much less. Even the half cage I had made appreciable difference. Anyway, what TC settings do you use on the RSR? Thought I recognised it,always slippery fun sprints at 3 sisters. Tc on the rsr is about 100mm of throttle movement I hear that about 80kgs of thick-as-mince passenger is good for traction at a wet Oulton park.

I keep mine on but the threshold for intervention is slightly increased in sports plus mode (981). You can feel it occasionally when the car is airborne, but driving smoothly with a linear steering input it's as good as off. It's a nice safety net to have in my opinion, especially with the risk of oil and coolant on track. Sliding sideways into an Armco barrier at 140mph is a sure way to ruin most people's day.

Panamax said: With these systems I see the question as "why turn them off"? rather than "why leave them on?" Because they simply let incompetent people who can't drive very well go quickly, with no need to actually learn to drive properly. So with an auto box & driver aids is there any point in actually being there at all? Because it doesn't need much talent, surely a computer game is as much fun & as challenging.

iguana said: Panamax said: With these systems I see the question as "why turn them off"? rather than "why leave them on?" Because they simply let incompetent people who can't drive very well go quickly, with no need to actually learn to drive properly. So with an auto box & driver aids is there any point in actually being there at all? Because it doesn't need much talent, surely a computer game is as much fun & as challenging. I remember when Traction Control came on the last Z3M cars and Evo had a spate of road tester spins in them...they concluded that TC could catch the easy ones but eventually the laws of physics won and the driver didn't have the time to catch the end of the slide. Regardless of how good TC is there comes a time on track when you overcome it, it then helps to have learned to drive the car with better control of the slides with the TC off in the first place. Fine is you already have those skills and feel the car is quicker with it on. I expect the majority of cars are quicker with it off apart from the very sophisticated systems on the racers. The system on my 2006 Boxster S comes in way too early and takes things miles too far...you would certainly be much quicker with it off.

iguana said: Because they simply let incompetent people who can't drive very well go quickly, with no need to actually learn to drive properly. So with an auto box & driver aids is there any point in actually being there at all? Because it doesn't need much talent, surely a computer game is as much fun & as challenging. Has it occurred to you that some people just don’t , and never will, have “the talent”? The speed of reaction needed to catch a slide in fat tyred Porsche is quite fast. I for instance have no problems catching slides in a Caterham but obviously find the Cayman trickier.

Caddyshack said: I remember when Traction Control came on the last Z3M cars and Evo had a spate of road tester spins in them...they concluded that TC could catch the easy ones but eventually the laws of physics won and the driver didn't have the time to catch the end of the slide. I remember doing track days in mid to late 90’s and twice seeing Subaru Impreza’s in the gravel, on their roof. Never saw cars flip on track days (yes racing) before or since.

Digga said: Caddyshack said: I remember when Traction Control came on the last Z3M cars and Evo had a spate of road tester spins in them...they concluded that TC could catch the easy ones but eventually the laws of physics won and the driver didn't have the time to catch the end of the slide. I remember doing track days in mid to late 90’s and twice seeing Subaru Impreza’s in the gravel, on their roof. Never saw cars flip on track days (yes racing) before or since. I don’t expect that is a traction control thing. Cars used to roll at brands all the time, it was due to deep gravel traps, they changed the design of many tracks to give better run off etc. I did most of my track day miles 95 to 2005 and didn’t see many rolls at all. Subarus did go off a lot as people assumed 4wd was a cornering aid when it is actually a traction thing.

Everything off, always. Just adjust your right foot. Properly focuses the mind and makes you a better driver I think.

On track in my RS I turn the traction control all the way up to 4 and leave it there.

pheonix478 said: On track in my RS I turn the traction control all the way up to 4 and leave it there. RS what?

Caddyshack said: pheonix478 said: On track in my RS I turn the traction control all the way up to 4 and leave it there. RS what? 964

pheonix478 said: Caddyshack said: pheonix478 said: On track in my RS I turn the traction control all the way up to 4 and leave it there. RS what? 964 Ok, so we know a 964 RS does not have TC, have you fitted some motorsport based system?

Caddyshack said: Ok, so we know a 964 RS does not have TC, have you fitted some motorsport based system? No it's the standard system. There's a dial on the dash. Doesn't seem to do much but better safe than sorry.

pheonix478 said: No it's the standard system. There's a dial on the dash. Doesn't seem to do much but better safe than sorry. In my CS there also seems to be a dial on the dash with a white dot on it. I always make sure it’s tuned all the way to the right. I am sure it’s for the traction control system. As you say, better be safe than sorry!

pheonix478 said: Caddyshack said: Ok, so we know a 964 RS does not have TC, have you fitted some motorsport based system? No it's the standard system. There's a dial on the dash. Doesn't seem to do much but better safe than sorry. Ah, gotcha now. My 911 was older so had a slider.