PCM, WMA, and Windows Media Player 11

First, let me state that before creating this new thread, I used the search feature extensively and read a voluminous number of posts regarding PCM and MP3 files. While the information I obtained from those threads was very enlightening, I still have some remaining questions. Background: My entire CD library has been ripped to 320kbps bit rate MP3 files and stored on a 250GB Network Attached Storage (NAS) unit. This configuration was set up in support of our Sonos Digital Music System which we use at our home. To date, I have been using Windows Media Player 10 (WMP10) to rip my CDs and manage my MP3 library. The Cayman S we have on order will have PCM which I know supports MP3 files and, based on the posts that I have read, it also support WMA files. My goal of course is to create data CDs for the Cayman (either MP3 or WMA) and get as many tracks as possible on a single CD without sacrificing too much audio quality. From reading previous posts, I understand how to use iTUNES to create an MP3 CD with tracks organized into folders by album. In fact, I installed iTUNES on my PC, scanned my MP3 library, and successfully created an MP3 CD as described. But here’s the rub; while 320K bit rate is great for home audio use, in my opinion it’s overkill for use in the Cayman. I’d rather use a 128K or 160K bitrate and be able to get a larger number of songs on a single CD. I can not find any setting in iTUNES that allows me to specify the bit rate for the files to be burned to CD. So since my stored files are all 320K, iTUNES burns them to CD in 320K. In my test, I was able to get 86 tracks (from a much larger playlist) on a single CD at 320K bit rate using iTUNES. My next step was to try the latest version of Windows Media Player, WMP11. Lo and behold, WMP11 does allow you to specify the bit rate of files burned to CD. So, I set WMP11 to burn at 128K and pressed the Start Burn button. On the fly, WMP11 transcoded the bit rate of each track (storing transcoded files in a temp directory – not altering the originals) and then burned them to the CD. I had recreated the same playlist that I used in the iTUNES experiment and was able to get 200 tracks from that playlist on a single CD. Considering the two methods, my preference is to use WMP11 as I already use it to manage my library and playlists for Sonos, and it allows me to convert 320K files to a lower bit rate. Examining the CD created by WMP11 shows the following folder hierarchy: The root directory of the CD contains one folder named Music and one .m3u file (the playlist file – you can specify whether WMP creates an .m3u file or a .wpl file). Drilling down into the Music folder reveals a folder for each artist. Each artist folder contains a folder representing each album. Each album folder contains the individual tracks in WMA format. I’ve attempted to graphically illustrate this hierarchy below: Playlist.m3u Music |_Artist ..........|_Album ..................|_Track 1 ..................|_Track 2 ..........|_Album ..................|_Track 1 ..................|_Track 2 |_Artist ..........|_Album ..................|_Track 1 ..................|_Track 2 |_Artist ..........|_Album ..................|_Track 1 ..................|_Track 2 ..........|_Album ..................|_Track 1 ..................|_Track 2 Since I don’t actually have my Cayman S yet, I can’t test this to see if the PCM will find the data tracks and play them. I really hope PCM is smart enough to root out the tracks as this solution will work really well for me and is quite simple. Has anyone used WMP11 to create a CD for their PCM? Does it work? Other thoughts or ideas would be most appreciated.

I'd be interested in the results of this as well. Sucks that you still can't hook up an iPod directly to a Cayman (really used to changing music once a month or so in my M3) ... but this CD approach is the best compromise I can think of. Midnight Blue, did you order your car with a CD changer? Are the capabilities for playing MP3/WMA different for PCM /non- PCM /CD Changer cars?

In iTunes select - preferences - advanced - Importing - mp3 encoder - settings and select custom if you want a unusual setting. Otherwise it is 128K or 160K or 192K. I mostly use 192K which will provides about 9-10 albums capacity on a cd. Hope that helps.

I haven't heard anything about PCM playing WMA files and I would be quite surprised if it actually supported it. As for re-encoding in iTunes, I don't know of a simple way to do what you want. If I was in that situation, I would probably take one of the command line encoders and reencode the files on the fly to be transferred. I might put everything that I want transferred in a folder and do it that way. Keep in mind though that you will lose quality whenever you reencode the signal. I've changed to using Apple lossless for everything that I listen to. On a set of Shure earphones, the difference is astounding. For my car, I'd either use 192k, or vbr.

Oh and for a already ripped cd (as that is the actual question I suppose) - once you have set it as described above - you can select the music to change then Advanced - convert selection to MP3 and the songs will convert to the lower sample rate.

I did not order a CD changer since the changer does NOT support MP3 files. The only drive that does support MP3 files is the CD drive integrated in the PCM . Non- PCM cars, Bose or no Bose , will not support MP3 files.

Thanks, but that setting is for ripping, not burning, right? All of my music is already ripped. I need on the fly conversion to lower bite rates when burning already ripped files to CD. By the way, I think I've read virtually all of your previous posts on this topic and found them extremely helpful.

According to this thread , the PCM will play WMA files. I would love for someone to confirm this since if it does not, then WMP11 is not a viable solution. Yes, I also have experimented with Win LAME which will re-encode MP3 encoded files to a lower bit rate. I really would rather not have to first select files, then re-encode them, then add them to a playlist, then burn to a CD. I do understand that using a lossy format file to create another lossy format file will result in sound degradation. I jus't don't see me re-ripping 1000 CDs in FLAC or another lossless format.

I'll have to try this, but it sounds like it will be creating another version of the track in a lower bit rate. This means that I would have to perform this operation on all tracks I want to burn to CD, store them separately, then create a playlist from those tracks, then burn to CD. The WMP11 appraoch is just so much simpler, so long as PCM supports WMA files and can read the resulting CD file hierarchy I described. I'd be happy to zip up some files for someone with a PCM to test. They would just have to unzip the package to their PC and burn a CD with the same file structure.

CNETTV Car-Tech has a piece today on the Boxster S. It turns out to actually discuss all of the options that Porsche makes available. Being CNET they do focus attention on the available sound systems. I thought that I heard Brian Cooley say that you cannot play Windows Media Audio Files. Take a look/listen: http://www.cnettv.com/9710-1_53-25418.html

Thanks for the link. Sure does sound like they say that none of the Porsche systems support the Windows Media Audio (WMA) format If that is actually the case, perhaps there is an add-on that enables WMP11 to burn in MP3 rather than just WMA. That would also solve the problem. I guess my fallback position is to use iTUNES and just deal with the duplicate files it will create. I still wonder why other members have posted that the PCM does decode WMA. Maybe it was just an assumption rather than an actual test.

I thought WMP 11 was Microsoft's answer to AAC, then they came out with the zune thing and the "plays for sure" campaign went out the window.:crazy: Midnight Blue - ok send me the zipped file and I'll give your WMA CD a try. Of course several versions of WMA are out there too. Though it is supposed to be backward compatible, I'm just not confident any WMA version will work. Anyway I'll be glad to give it a try and will send you my email address in a PM.

Got your PM, thanks. I will create a structure with a few different artists and albums but limit to one or two tracks each to minimize file size then email to you. WMA = Windows Media Audio - a MS developed file format for compressing audio. Similar to MP3 but proprietary to MS. WMP = Windows Media Player - a MS developed application for media (audio, video, etc.) library management, ripping, and CD burning. WMP10 and higher supports ripping to MP3 as well as WMA formats (and others via plugin) but appears only to support burning in WMA or CDA (standard CD audio) formats.

This WMP and WMA stuff is confusing even to me sometimes, but then I've gone the AAC and MP3 route. From Wikipedia: WMA 10 Pro... starting with Windows Media Player 11 is meant to compete against the popular AAC and low bitrate aacPlus, and is clearly superior to ordinary WMA. Let hope it works, I'm always a fan of stuff that works rather than bombs because of incompatibility.

I'm a big fan of open standards so I use mp3 and aac. The unencrypted AACs can be played on any platform. MP3 is a well established format that has been implemented in silicone many times. I don't think the same can be said about WMA which is why it would be a surpise if PCM supported it.

I hear ya and I agree with you. The ONLY reason I even care about WMA is that WMP11 will burn my MP3 files to that format only. And the ONLY reason I even care about WMP11 is that it allows me to select a lower bit rate to burn the files to thus allowing me to get more tracks per CD. If the WMA experiment fails, I'll look into other apps like MusicMatch to see if they can also do bit rate conversion on the fly while burning to CD.

If you were using a mac, this would be very simple. You can use http://www.dougscripts.com/itunes/scripts/ss.php?sp=convertandexport . This script allows you to select a group of files, then it reencodes and copy the new versions appropriately. There may be something similar for windows ..... but I only use Macs for my personal use. I haven't found anything quite the same for windows. Got a mac by chance?

Nope. No Mac and still no solution. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the WMA files I sent K-Man to test will work, but not holding my breath. Still investigating alternatives like MusicMatch and applications of that ilk.

It would be very easy for someone that is familiar with windows scripting to convert that applescript over to windows. I'm not sure if you know anyone. I know how, I just don't have the time (or platform to test it on). Sorry ....

After a bit of trouble with file size Midnight Blue sent me some test files - about 15 mb. I'm transferring it from the mac to PC and downloading WMP11 as it seems like that would be the best way to burn a cd test.

It works Drum-roll please. It works! :cheers: WMA files play on the PCM system - I had no problems reading the song titles and album info also. Took a bit of work to prove it true - and even I was a doubter. So this my contribution to the greater Cayman Club knowledge base for today. :dance: :dance:

Well this is fantastic news indeed!! Using WMP11 with my MP3 files allows me to on the fly create lower bit rate files burned directlly to CD. One easy step. No muss, no fuss. Fabulous! Many thanks to K-Man-sculpture.net for bearing with me for this experiment. Much obliged!

Midnight, What rate did you burn at and how many songs/albums were you able to get on one CD?

At 128Kbps I got around 200 tracks on one 700MB CD. At 192Kbps I got about 180 tracks. Next experiment should be using 800MB CDs, just don't know if the PCM will read them. This is a great solution for folks who already have ripped their library at a high bit rate but want to create CDs for the Cayman at a lower bit rate. I think that 160Kbps will be more than adequate for the car, perhaps even 128K. And with 200 songs on one CD, waiting for an iPOD solution (Dension?) won't seem as long.

I am sure it works and I also confirmed that the written files were WMA format on the final test CD. The PCM screen even shows a WMA file. Ten hours or so of Music on a CD has been pretty good for me - One disk in the CD and two more in the CD holders gives 30+ hours. Good enough for most trips I take.

Oh also I wanted to add that I loved the music, and Midnight Blue will be pleased to hear that I thought it sounded great on the system. No problems with quality at all that I could discern.

The WMA and MPC display I mentioned:

What the folder list for three CD's looks like:

Typical info from each of the three WMA files tested while playing. MP3 information would look the same:

Thanks Midnight BLue, very helpful. Alias

Thank you very much for the photos K-Man-sculpture.net! I'm really excited about this development. Next test will be with 800MB CDs. K-Man-sculpture.net - care to test the random feature to see if selections are made across all folders are just from within one folder? I hope it is random across all folders.

My pleasure. It's nice for me to be able to make a contribution to the forum before I even get my Cayman . Thanks to K-Man-sculpture.net too, without his help we would still be wondering.

Hey Midnight Blue, I got your test CD's today. The 192K plays great and all folders show as CD's. Took about 3 sec to start. BUT a big problem with the 128K disk. It did play, but I thought it wasn't going to - I put it in first and almost gave up on it because it took about 2 minutes to start! Some variation on this experience may be why some have thought that WMA files don't play. It would of been an easy mistake to have tried it with that CD first and concluded that it the files wouldn't work. Two minutes or so is an eternity for this situation and most folks would push eject before waiting that long, worrying that the CD was stuck (as has been reported elsewhere on the forum). So did you do anything different so far as folder or naming conventions on the 128k CD?

Interesting. I did nothing differently between the 2 CDs other than burn one at 192K and the other at 128K. I think the 128K CD had around 20 more tracks than the 192K CD. You may want to inspect the 128K CD to look for scratches or defects - perhaps explore both on a PC to see if there are any other differences. How was the sound quality on the 192K? CD? I assume the folder displayed is the Album Name? And did you test the random function - does it randomize amonst all folders (hopefully) or just the tracks within one folder? I can certainly live with 192K, but find it odd that PCM would churn away for a while on 128K bit rate files. Thanks again.

Hey can you guys help me with the settings for Windows Media Player (using Vista Version) to make sure I am burning the WMA's correctly? I have some MP3's on my hard drive that I want to burn to CD as WMA's, but I don't think I'm getting it right.

Be happy to help (isn't this a nice role reversal)... I assume you are using WMP11 (I do not have Vista yet). In order for WMP11 to burn WMA files rather than standard audio, you must ensure that you select Data CD from the Burn submenu. Also, under Burn/More Options, I would suggest setting the parameter Data Discs/ Convert to: 192K bit rate. Once you have set the WMP11 options to burn a Data CD and set the bit rate, then all you need to do is drag tracks or playlists to the Burn List pane. WMP11 will keep track of how much space you have remaining on the CD (as long as blank media is in your drive) as you add tracks. I've done this many times, so if you need more assistance, please PM me.

ok it looks a bit different in vista but giving it a try now as a data disc, the problem before was that I was choosing audio disc...

You need MediaMonkey. Best music library system there. Its a player as well. I no longer use it, managing music takes too much time. I just do the Zune monthyl subscription... for $15 per month I have millions of albums including proper ID tags and pictures.