"Make sure you drive a few before you buy" advice - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I am posting this here as I am looking to buy an air-cooled 911, however this question could apply to any classic car purchase. I have done my theory homework on the model I am looking to buy, and been through buying guides and advice on forums like this one (thank you, everyone). I am an experienced car owner, have owned six 911s, and currently own a few older Ferraris. So I know the ropes. But I can't square the circle on one piece of advice that comes up in buying guides for these and many other older and rarer cars: drive a few before you buy one so you can tell how the good ones drive, or words to that effect. It's sound and sensible advice. But how do you do that without wasting vendors' time? If your first five or seven test drives are purely for research, you will still have to turn up to a dealer or seller and pretend you are genuinely interested, or understandably they won't let you drive. Five or seven times. And then explain afterwards why the car wasn't quite right etc. I don't have qualms about getting a test drive in a demonstrator owned by a main dealer manned by a bored salesman. But for an old car, sold by an independent, you are taking their time, getting the car dirty and potentially adding stone chips, etc, and adding risk. Same for a private seller. So how does the advice about driving a few even work - do all the buying guides (and sometimes the advice in the magazines is from other dealers!) suggest you waste vendors' time and deceive them? I guess you could join a club before you buy the car and beg test drives off owners, but that would be very time consuming and a bit strange - if all potential owners were advised to do that. Mystified. And yet I would still like to drive a few of this particular model before I buy, for the good reasons suggested in the buying guides. (I'm not naming the exact model because I don't want to derail this into a discussion of that model, or look like I am fishing for drive offers - I am not.) Any insights? Thanks. Edited by LeMaven on Monday 6th February 20:43 Edited by LeMaven on Monday 6th February 20:43 Edited by LeMaven on Monday 6th February 20:44

I phrase it differently in my head. I use each test as research but also as the individual car’s opportunity to sell itself to me. When i test drive an example of a car i like i always ask myself the question “can i make the money work any harder for me to get me the car i want”.

LeMaven said: I am posting this here as I am looking to buy an air-cooled 911, however this question could apply to any classic car purchase. I have done my theory homework on the model I am looking to buy, and been through buying guides and advice on forums like this one (thank you, everyone). I am an experienced car owner, have owned six 911s, and currently own a few older Ferraris. So I know the ropes. But I can't square the circle on one piece of advice that comes up in buying guides for these and many other older and rarer cars: drive a few before you buy one so you can tell how the good ones drive, or words to that effect. It's sound and sensible advice. But how do you do that without wasting vendors' time? If your first five or seven test drives are purely for research, you will still have to turn up to a dealer or seller and pretend you are genuinely interested, or understandably they won't let you drive. Five or seven times. And then explain afterwards why the car wasn't quite right etc. I don't have qualms about getting a test drive in a demonstrator owned by a main dealer manned by a bored salesman. But for an old car, sold by an independent, you are taking their time, getting the car dirty and potentially adding stone chips, etc, and adding risk. Same for a private seller. So how does the advice about driving a few even work - do all the buying guides (and sometimes the advice in the magazines is from other dealers!) suggest you waste vendors' time and deceive them? I guess you could join a club before you buy the car and beg test drives off owners, but that would be very time consuming and a bit strange - if all potential owners were advised to do that. Mystified. And yet I would still like to drive a few of this particular model before I buy, for the good reasons suggested in the buying guides. (I'm not naming the exact model because I don't want to derail this into a discussion of that model, or look like I am fishing for drive offers - I am not.) Any insights? Thanks. Well, it's good of you to be concerned. Some people wouldn't be. Depending upon how particular your brief is, you aren't going to find a number to try. If you want a black 930 G50 you may have a choice of one, for example. If you want a 3.2 Carrera or a 3.0 SC in any colour you will have more to go at, but other considerations will rule a car in or out before you get to the driving part. Maybe look at joining an owners' club and see if anyone will let you have a spin, without purchase being a consideration. Personally, I would view it more along the lines of "does this car fit my brief? Is it in the right condition? does it drive properly?". Yes there are variations in the way apparently identical Porsches drive, but providing a car drives "properly" I would not go further than that. Added to which, a car that drives marginally less well than another may just need a geo setup, or some new plugs or... to make it drive better than all the rest.

As post above, they're a platform that can be made to drive brilliantly with not much extra cost, even if you buy one that initially has driving traits that you don't warm to. So why not go ahead and view whatever stirs your soul, and you potentially intend to buy. Get to know it, then modify accordingly. Assuming the bodywork and service history are good. That said, if you state which air-cooled(s) you're interested in, then probably enough owners here to describe what a 'good one' should drive like. Albeit highly subjective...one owner's perfect suspension setup is another owner's worst nightmare!

Surely you're not wasting anyone's time unless you are test driving something you know in advance you have no interest at all in buying. Even if its only a slight interest, its an interest and potential purchase... Its a bit different to a 17 year old tyre kicker just wanting to test drive something fancy, no? I wouldn't waste any time thinking about it. Life's too short and all that.

Thanks everyone. The collective opinion gives me faith that the way I am doing it is the right way. It's also true that no decent car of my chosen model is totally ruled out. In the past I have bought cars I didn't think I was going to buy (for colour, etc) because I liked them on driving them. I will definitely post about the actual model I am looking for, but would like to ensure I have informed myself properly before I do that.

I think most specialist dealers of older air cooled cars accept that a test drive is necessary to get a sale across the line…that is my experience anyway. The reality is the older the model you are looking at the smaller % of them are going to be good cars….most will have been restored and that really does open up a can of worms…one man’s restoration is another man’s bodge. Personally I’d be looking out for original cars as the market doesn’t price them properly but there is also the reality that the chances of a RHD UK being original are not high when we’re talking about the earlier cars. When it comes to restorations the list of specialists that you would look to but a car from is a pretty short one…with an older restoration you have to remember that if that work was done 20 years ago the cars were just not worth enough to make good quality restorations economically viable. A few years ago I went to look at a car at Tuthill that had been through their workshops a few years before….Tuthill were helping the owner sell the car rather than acting as a dealer. Car had been through their workshops a few years before that but it turned out that they had rescued it for a previous owner after someone else had bodged the restoration. Richard Tuthill was 100% open and honest about all this and moreover was also honest that at the time they had done the work they were more of a race car team so details were not as good…cars from that period are very much a different quality to the one’s they produce today. He also told me that the car had been acid dipped which with a 911 is a big problem as the acid sits in the roof welds and may years later can present itself as rust in the C pillars….expensive surgery is the only remedy. Tuthill dipped a few cars early on until they discovered this problem but I still sometimes see it mentioned in restorations. I think that car has had money spent on it since (I didn’t buy it) and probably looks a million dollars and has the Tuthill name attached to it but is not a car I would want to own. Would other dealers have given me all that information ? I suspect not but then car sales is not Tuthill’s business.

I will make two completely separate points. 1 - you are inventing a problem that does not exist - traders make profit selling cars, and test-drives are covered by that profit, and private sellers have always had to endure 'n' test drives to one sale. 2 - if you are set on buying an 'air-cooled car', don't bother with test-drives to help you choose. You might get seriously put-off the model as they can drive shockingly badly. As they are all very old, they will all either have a massive variety of replaced suspension parts, and some of these replacements done 20 years ago, mixed with recent upgrades, or on (oddly prized) original suspension. There will be no meaningful comparison to be had. And most will not suit your taste... really. When you change the suspension, the older 911s will deliver whatever it is you want, though you may be on a long journey before you find the correct mix of components for your good self. Or you may never 'get' the old 911 experience - I'm not being elitist; it's just one of those things. Obviously, test drive the cars that you like in case it's a lemon, but as you'll be changing suspension stuff anyway, just check the engine/gearbox doesn't fall out. IMO much more important to look for corrosion etc, and once through that step you may wish to get an independent inspection of the oily bits... but the suspension would be at the bottom of my worry-list. Edited by Orangecurry on Tuesday 7th February 10:12

This is where being a member of owners forums can really help. Got to a meet where owners of said cars will be, speak to them, they are very likely to be happy to take you for a spin, you will then get a feel for the car. Get a few rides and then when you do see one you like the look of, you are driving it with the intention to buy. If it doesn't feel right, walk away. I did that with Maserati's, worked a treat.

As above, if the car is generally sound in other areas, but has handling quirks, these are a known quantity within reason to fix in general, which is where the club experience / forums may help (especially if a PPI has been done and confirmed the car is otherwise sound). My now sold 996 had a couple of issues on purchase that were subsequently fixed by a specialist, including a new geo service. It took some chasing round the car due to knock on effects (there was a bend in the front damper top!) but once done it could have been a different car. On the later older air cooled stuff, there are quite a few components in the suspension, especially the rear sub frames, as they age they all interact differently. The one I had was also running larger wheels and very old tyres which I replaced before the suspension was done, which alone made a vast improvement. It also depends on your driving style, some quirks may not be apparent until you’re on a track but you could live with them if you just use the car for pootling around on a Sunday as they would never be apparent. One shock going from a 996 to a 993 (to me) was that you could tell dynamically the earlier car was a huge step back. This could put a lot of people off but I wanted a more classic feeling car so it suited me. I do specifically recalling that on the test drive, thinking if it was the right idea to trade cars (before the prices went mad and both were around the same value). The older car though rated low in my view against the later sorted 996, and I’ve never gotten back to the feeling the 996 had (which I expect is impossible as they are different cars), but I just like the older car more. Dynamically the wheels, tyres (age and type) and then hard / soft suspension component mix is hugely variable, personal preference aside, and can make a great car mediocre and vice versa. All replacement kit may give characteristics you aren’t happy with, even if many £££‘s spent, so worth speaking to someone like Centre Gravity with a plan of what you are looking to achieve and how likely it is to cost when factoring in a purchase.

I usually buy the first car I go to see and drive. Come to think of it, this was the case with any car I have ever owned.... I bought the first 997 I have driven myself, the first R129 SL, the first Range Rover Classic. Same thing applies to my mundane means of transportation. Of course I thoroughly do my homework and I only go see a car if it is the right spec and colour. I hate tyre kicking and joyriding. When I have committed to go see a car, I have usually already decided 95% I want to buy that car. Seeing in person and test driving is only to verify my decision.

Filibuster said: I usually buy the first car I go to see and drive. Come to think of it, this was the case with any car I have ever owned.... I bought the first 997 I have driven myself, the first R129 SL, the first Range Rover Classic. Same thing applies to my mundane means of transportation. Of course I thoroughly do my homework and I only go see a car if it is the right spec and colour. I hate tyre kicking and joyriding. When I have committed to go see a car, I have usually already decided 95% I want to buy that car. Seeing in person and test driving is only to verify my decision. This is totally me, plus I share the op's feeling of wasting people's time - on top of the fact that I cba to meet a huge number of strangers on the way to purchasing a car. I've been pretty lucky so far considering I am totally clueless about knowing what to look for. In the op's case (older model) I would probably pay to get it inspected by a specialist and otherwise go with gut feel.

I’m fortunate to be a member of a car club that has a bespoke insurance policy that allows other member to drive their cars. That allowed me to refine my choice enough to get close enough to my purchase which was from a dealer where I went there 95% sure that I would buy it subject to inspecting certain well known areas and a short test drive.

If you're considering a pre '74 car, look in on DDk. http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/index.php

If you have an old Ferrari why not offer a swap test drive with a few owners of 911’s…there is the win win. If I still had my 911 I would have wanted to do the swap for a drive. My 2 cents….try a torsion bar car and a later car in the air cooled range, I love the torsion bars and had an 84 Carrera, mine had the 915 gearbox not the g50, worth trying both.

walnut3 said: Filibuster said: I usually buy the first car I go to see and drive. Come to think of it, this was the case with any car I have ever owned.... I bought the first 997 I have driven myself, the first R129 SL, the first Range Rover Classic. Same thing applies to my mundane means of transportation. Of course I thoroughly do my homework and I only go see a car if it is the right spec and colour. I hate tyre kicking and joyriding. When I have committed to go see a car, I have usually already decided 95% I want to buy that car. Seeing in person and test driving is only to verify my decision. This is totally me, plus I share the op's feeling of wasting people's time - on top of the fact that I cba to meet a huge number of strangers on the way to purchasing a car. I've been pretty lucky so far considering I am totally clueless about knowing what to look for. In the op's case (older model) I would probably pay to get it inspected by a specialist and otherwise go with gut feel. Exactly the same with me. Totally impulsive and I have no patience. I also know that any issues can be fixed if you're happy to spend the money.

Thank you everyone. It's a good idea to find someone with a properly sorted model of the car to act as a reference. I will work on that. I'm not in a great rush but will keep this thread updated if and when there is news.

Hereward said: walnut3 said: Filibuster said: I usually buy the first car I go to see and drive. Come to think of it, this was the case with any car I have ever owned.... I bought the first 997 I have driven myself, the first R129 SL, the first Range Rover Classic. Same thing applies to my mundane means of transportation. Of course I thoroughly do my homework and I only go see a car if it is the right spec and colour. I hate tyre kicking and joyriding. When I have committed to go see a car, I have usually already decided 95% I want to buy that car. Seeing in person and test driving is only to verify my decision. This is totally me, plus I share the op's feeling of wasting people's time - on top of the fact that I cba to meet a huge number of strangers on the way to purchasing a car. I've been pretty lucky so far considering I am totally clueless about knowing what to look for. In the op's case (older model) I would probably pay to get it inspected by a specialist and otherwise go with gut feel. Exactly the same with me. Totally impulsive and I have no patience. I also know that any issues can be fixed if you're happy to spend the money. I nearly did this. I didn't buy the first 964 I saw because the owner couldn't get it to start! So it was a wasted trip. However, I did buy the second one I saw because it started and I test drove it. There were quite a few issues with it that I knew I would have to sort and the owner was very honest about them. However, 964s in those days (2007) were only £12,000!

boxsey said: Hereward said: walnut3 said: Filibuster said: I usually buy the first car I go to see and drive. Come to think of it, this was the case with any car I have ever owned.... I bought the first 997 I have driven myself, the first R129 SL, the first Range Rover Classic. Same thing applies to my mundane means of transportation. Of course I thoroughly do my homework and I only go see a car if it is the right spec and colour. I hate tyre kicking and joyriding. When I have committed to go see a car, I have usually already decided 95% I want to buy that car. Seeing in person and test driving is only to verify my decision. This is totally me, plus I share the op's feeling of wasting people's time - on top of the fact that I cba to meet a huge number of strangers on the way to purchasing a car. I've been pretty lucky so far considering I am totally clueless about knowing what to look for. In the op's case (older model) I would probably pay to get it inspected by a specialist and otherwise go with gut feel. Exactly the same with me. Totally impulsive and I have no patience. I also know that any issues can be fixed if you're happy to spend the money. I nearly did this. I didn't buy the first 964 I saw because the owner couldn't get it to start! So it was a wasted trip. However, I did buy the second one I saw because it started and I test drove it. There were quite a few issues with it that I knew I would have to sort and the owner was very honest about them. However, 964s in those days (2007) were only £12,000! Me too, so far have always bought the first one I've been to see. So far it's worked out. The real problem is knowing which of the cars you drove is doing it right, unless they are particularly bad.

Might a 'good one' simply have benefitted from a recent wheel alignment / decent tyres? This basic level of maintenance does make a surprising level of difference to the perception of how a car drives.

I also would love an air cooled 911 and have looked at a couple. Seeing how it drives might tell you a bit about the engine, drive train and suspension, but the biggest problem with these I have found is rust. Hidden rust. That you can’t really examine unless you poke around with a screwdriver and take bits like door sills off. How do you deal with that ?? For this reason, I am still 911 free