C2 vs C4S

I am debating between a new C2 and a new C4S. I will be using this as a daily driver and plan on taking it on the track 4-6 times per year. While I like the look of the 4S better, I am concerned about the 4WD (weight, maintenance, handling) I would appreciate any input that will help me decide. Thanks in advance.

Bobby, First, you should call Pat Kerr Inc down on wagner place and buy a raffle ticket for my 99 C2. It was on display at the Blues Ball if you happened to have been there. The reason my 99 C2 is there is because I upgraded to an 01 C4. Now you likely know my answer to your question, right? Buy the C4S, you will NOT be disappointed. The 99 C2, Ocean Blue (Blues Ball Blue according to Pat), my 78 911SC Targa, and the 01 C4 can be seen at <a href="http://www.hobbystage.net/porsche/wwest" target="_blank">http://www.hobbystage.net/porsche/wwest</a> A C4S in that color would look even better.

C4S got the killer looks and it should outperform ac2 on the track due to wider profile/suspension set-up and brakes. But nothing more exciting then swinging the tail out at will for 2WD. If the C4S had come out at '99 woulda taken that for it's track prowess. I don't think you' ll lose much in top end performance matter of .1-.2 going to 60 and 1-2 mph top speed which is minute IMHO. Gotta go for it's better track setup. Regards. Please order a speed yellow/black C4S-great color for that car. MIke

Bobby, Get whatever color you like, but you will be disappointed if you don't buy the C4S. The AWD system and turbo-like suspension and brakes give this car superior handling to the C2. My C4S feels like its on rails in turns and is the most fun I've ever had in an automobile!

No question, if you don't get the C4S you will regret it....I had a '97 C2 and bought it over a new C2....but the C4S was awesome....you won't regret getting one.

i love my c4s <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> no regrets bout spending a few extra bucks to get awesome grip both in rain and dry. 14k mi since march 28! <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> only a turbo would be more fun (maybe) <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

Bobby, If you want a daily driver and performance you can get a regular C4 with the ROW M030 suspension upgrade and the Porsche Powerkit (X51)from factory for less than 3000$ more than a C4S. It will outperform not only a C2 but ALSO a C4S, which would be heavier, less HP and less sportier suspension settings than a C4 M030-MX51. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

You might consider a C2 with X51 and X75 (from gert). This would be a nice setup.

[quote]Originally posted by Carlos from Spain: <strong>Bobby, If you want a daily driver and performance you can get a regular C4 with the ROW M030 suspension upgrade and the Porsche Powerkit (X51)from factory for less than 3000$ more than a C4S. It will outperform not only a C2 but ALSO a C4S, which would be heavier, less HP and less sportier suspension settings than a C4 M030-MX51. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote> Just to keep the record straight, the C4S comes witht the 030 as standard equipment . Also, you'll need more than the X51 to best the C4S. You also need to get the turbo brakes, otherwise it will outbrake you at every corner. You also need the wider track, for better corner stability and faster times around the corner. Why not get a C4S with X51 and the extra lowered suspension (available Jan '03)? To be trutful, the X51 sounds nice, but at the same torque with only 25 HP more, I don't believe it's worth the money from a performance standpoint.

Hi Palting, Though I like the C4S too, I still believe that a lighter C2/4 with the "Euro"030 or X75 and 345HP will outperform a C4S. The breaks is not really a weakpoint of the C2/4 (unlike an E46-M3 for example) so the Turbo breaks on a "non-turbo performance" carrera won�t really compensate for the extra weight and less HP and no better suspensions, diddo for the wider track on a non-turbo or non-GT3. While the C4S is a really beautiful car, you do have to pay for the "turbo-look" along with the few performace upgrades, but if its just performance you want, that extra price tag can be used for only performance options on a regualer carrera for superior overall performance. I myself preferred and bought the C4 Euro-M030/18" with the Aerokit-look and aerodinamics instead of the extra HP of the Powerkit. ... but unless we get Walter Rohl to compare them both at Nurburgring we will never actually settle it BTW, I read in "Sport Car International" that the C4S had the regular suspensions of the wide-track Turbo tunned to its curb weight, not the M030's.

Hi, Carlos. I've had some fun needling the C2 X51 guys in previous threads . Of course, it has nothing to do at all with the fact that I am completely enamored by the C4S . And you are absolutely right. Unless we get a renowned driver to drive the modded cars, we'll never be able to settle it. Some people have tried to settle it using the stock cars, though. In Nurburgring, the stock 2002 C4S is faster than the stock C2 by several seconds per lap. I have the tables somewhere on my hardrive, and I'll post it when I find it. Opinion is that the improved brakes, wider track, stiffer suspension and aerodynamics (plus AWD, IMHO) more than compensated for the increased weight rsulting in the significantly better times. Regarding the suspension, here's a quote from the Porsche website on the C4S. "Standard equipment includes four-wheel drive, lowered sports suspension (10 mm lower than on the 911 Coup�) , and Porsche Stability Management (PSM), making the 911 Carrera 4S one of the most agile, athletic, yet manageable cars ever to bear the Porsche Crest" (bold lettering mine). Of course, the above response is totally unbiased and completely analytical. The fact that I have a C4S has nothing to do with it. I swear. No, really. Your car sounds like it looks great!! How about some pics?

[quote] I am completely enamored by the C4S . <hr></blockquote> Well, you have good reason to be, especially if you track it. Who could not be in love with the C4S? Even though I think it may be marginally slower than a modded C2/C4 (we are not comparing the 996 to a M3 or Merc AMG )I love the C4S and think its not only absolutly beautiful but a great package and compromise [quote] In Nurburgring, the stock 2002 C4S is faster than the stock C2 by several seconds per lap. Opinion is that the improved brakes, wider track, stiffer suspension and aerodynamics (plus AWD, IMHO) more than compensated for the increased weight rsulting in the significantly better times. <hr></blockquote> I agree, stock the C4S will always be faster. In the Jarama circuit (much shorter than the North Loop) the C4S stock it almost a second faster than a stock C2, I think much to do the suspension settings (the stock C2/C4 suspension settings are ridiculous for a Porsche IMHO) and wider tires. The aerodinamics is actually in favor of the C2 since the wider front from the turbo due to the needed intakes has a greater "overall" drag (not the simple coeficient) which is also responsible for its lower top speed, and the C4S doesn�t get the downforce of the turbo's rear and front spoilers though the rear spoiler has a greater angle of attack than the C2/C4. Though some people won't agree(like Fangio or Senna), I also think like you in that AWD will help lap times on regular mortals like us and gives a greater safety cushion when driving on the limit being much more forgiving of the mistake us mortals make. [quote] lowered sports suspension (10 mm lower than on the 911 Coup�) <hr></blockquote> Like the Turbo it sits 10mm lower than the C2/C4, and shares the turbo suspensions along with the turbo�s wider control arms, etc. [quote]Your car sounds like it looks great!! How about some pics? <hr></blockquote>

I like the feel of a C2 better. The C4's understeer way too much for me. I would rather a rear drive Carrera 7 days a week. I drive my C2 in the rain all the time. I drive it all year long. No problems as long as you drive with caution. As far as the track is concerned, I will beat your C4 with my C2......I have outrun 996 Turbos and C4S's. My car is stock and I do not even have 030....

[quote]Originally posted by John Murray: <strong>I As far as the track is concerned, I will beat your C4 with my C2......I have outrun 996 Turbos and C4S's. My car is stock and I do not even have 030....</strong><hr></blockquote> Heh-heh-heh, them's fighting words, John <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" /> <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" /> It's all about the driver. I've not only trumped and passed C2's, I've lapped them! Last one had ROW 030 + Fabspeed box and exhaust. He sure sounded great as I came up to him, but I still passed him twice in a 20 min time span over a 2.5 mile track. Can't say I've passed a 996 turbo, but none have passed me either. On the other hand,I've been passed by a prepped late-80's 911 driven by an instructor. I'm not saying I'm Juan Fangio, just that it's all relative to the driver. OTOH, you could be Juan Fangio . Another point I disagree with you is the understeer. At least on the C4S, and on the tracks I've driven and the way the instructors have guided me after sitting through several laps, the 996 C4S can turn in earlier, then rotate the car with the gas pedal. Car is all stock except for turbo wheels. On the prepped 911 that passed me, my instructor observed that I was able to keep up with him on the esses by turning in earlier, getting on the gas earlier, shortening the driving line around the curves. I think the understeer on the C4S is a misconception, at least for the 996 C4S. At close to the limit, properly modulated, the front wheel drive will turn the car in and around the apex and the rear WILL step out in a controlled fashion. All with PSM on but not intruding. The car certainly has proven that to myself and my last instructor.

Like Palting says, its all relative to the driver. I have a friend who can drive the guts out of his '73 911 RSR so well he will make you look like a teenager on your 996 C2 (he is a professional driver BTW from GT1's). But we are not comparing drivers just cars. The understeer you get on AWD 996's will depend on your setup, and while initially may tend to understeer turning in, it will oversteer coming out like the C2 if you want. C2 or the C4 is faster? depends on the situation: on the streets the C4's AWD combined with PSM gives it the upper hand and if it rains, no contest. In a the track, the C2 may pull a fastest lap under professional hands but overall the C4 will pull more consistant laps. And in non-professional hands the C4 is easier to go faster than the C2. At least thats what the pro's say.

OK, OK I give. I do love the C4S. It is the most beautiful car Porsche has ever produced. If the understeer could be dialed out then that would be my choice. How about a C2S?? That would be the one. I dont even need red calipers, athough I like those too. I just feel (after driving countless 996's on a daily basis&lt;I am a Porsche salesman&gt that the C2 steers better than an AWD Porsche. OTOH, someone who does NOT drive a C2 everyday, like me, would probably not notice the AWD understeering as bad as I notice it. So maybe it all depends what you are coming out of.... Good Luck. No offense to anyone or their car!

Hi John, [quote] How about a C2S?? That would be the one <hr></blockquote> I think what you want is a C2"RS" a.k.a. GT3 [quote]&lt;I am a Porsche salesman&gt; <hr></blockquote> Talk about a great job!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> [quote] maybe it all depends what you are coming out of.... <hr></blockquote> True... Well, if you like oversteering, you would get a kick out of trying a sport-quad on a fast dirt mountain trail (and no speed limits ).You will be oversteering all over the place (and if you see yourself your understeering it means your going to hit a tree ). Its "one" of the ways I get the speed craving-addiction out of my system on the weekend

[quote]Originally posted by John Murray: <strong> If the understeer could be dialed out then that would be my choice. Good Luck. No offense to anyone or their car!</strong><hr></blockquote> One way is to dial it out a bit is to play with the pressures. In the event I related above, I had the tires at 39F/47R hot, rather than the usual 40-42 all around that is usually recc (Oh no!!! I started the tire pressure debate again!). And no offense taken. A little sparring is good .

Carlos, I think the only C4 available in the US is the C4S. BTW I love the looks of your car! Thinking about adding the Aerokit to my car- '00 C2/RoWM030,Ruf Exh/GT3 wheels... As far as passing people at DE's...give me a brake, that's ALL driver skill. I used to pass a lot of cars at will until I moved up, now I get passed, it's a learning curve. If you're passing Turbos with ease in a C2 or C4S, you are in the wrong run group and should be moved up IMO. DE's aren't about racing, their purpose is to improve your driver skills up to the performance level of the Porsche. <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

wouldn't porsche be coming out with a C2S next year. It would make sense since they came out with a 993 C2S after the C4S was intorduced. If they do I would buy a 2003 C2S. I just luv the flared fenders. And with just rear wheel drive you can have the fun of pushing out the tail in corners if you have the skill and nerve!!! Has anyone heard any rumors of a 2003 C2S?

Yesterday I drove my car and a 02 C4Cab back to back, as did the other owner. Th drive was on a 1 1/2 mile very fast autocross course. The difference was staggering. I know its not a C4S, but the power of the X51 is amazing. The Owner of the C4 was amazed at how much faster it is. My belief is that if you want a fast fun car for weekend and track driving, go for the C2 with the X51, X74 and upgrade the brakes. I have yet to see a fair comparison of a C2 and C4S. The C4S comes with an ROW style suspension and bigger brakes. I believe if the C2 had these it would be faster. If anyone in NY Metro wants to come out and do some head to head testing, the next auto x is a season finale where we will be allowed to swap cars, etc. basically all fun runs. I will be glad to do some back to back runs with a C4S to compare.

Ed, I'm looking at possibly doing Watkins Glen this coming spring. I'm religiously checking the schedules to see which chapter would host one sometime May. Watkins Glen I understand is a FAST track. That should bring out the advantages of the C2X51 over the C4S, if any (just needling you, guy). Otherwise, you can come down here to either Mid-Ohio, or the new one at Beaver Run in PA. I've only seen one other 996 C4S in any of my DE's, and I've certainly not seen an X51 in any form. I'd only I'd be more than happy to swap cars with you for a run .

What about GT2??..it is rear wheel drive I personally prefer 2 wheel drive than the 4 wheel drive. B.Karan Miami, FL

Would definitely love to meet up at a DE somewhere.

I think the AWD 996s handles better than the C2. However, the C2's can be faster in certain tracks and track conditions. I've been in two C4's at track events. C4 coupe at Jefferson Curcuit. C4 convertible at Watkins Glen. I am using my daily driver, 2000 C2, for track events since I sold my 79SC clubracer early this year. At a tight track like Jefferson Curcuit (1.0 mile short but technical track) my C2 would push while the C4 started with mild understeers but will pull to neutral with appropriate gas application. In this case, the C4 handles better than the C2. However, the C2 can be faster around the same corner if the driver has good car control to put the car into a controlled drift instead of driven the car to understeer.

Bobby, You KNOW what I'm gonna tell you. Get the C4S. There are multiple reasons: 1. It looks better. 2. It has the Turbo suspension and brakes(which are remarkable) 3. It will have better resale value and I bet a higher residual on leasing. 4. In our hands, it will be faster and safer than the C2, both on the track and daily. 5. The 4 wheel drive system is bulletproof and as far as I know, there is no more maintenance. Let me put it this way, if you end up NOT liking it, I'll buy it from you. Lets see if our mutual friend will match that offer(ha,ha). Sincerely, Johnny Mitias

I think Johnny hit the nail right on the head. Unless you are in the 99th percentile of track driving skill among Rennlist posters, the 996 C4S will be a better choice for you versus a 996 C2. You will be faster, safer, look better, stop faster and have better resale. If they make a 996 C2S things might get complicated, but I'd still give the same advice.

I think its best put this way... a Porsche professional test driver drove both a C2 and a C4S and the lap tiems around Nurbering were within 4 seconds on 14 miniutes! Yes the C4S was faster in that test, but then again the test did also conincide with the debut of the C4S and it could not loose, would not be good for selling cars. 4 seconds is less than less than 1/2 a percent, maybe one bad corner. The bottom line is they are both amazing cars and are both different. They will each be faster on different tracks and appeal to different audiences. Go for the one that appeals to you.

Makes no difference PERMAGRIN supplied with both

I recently ordered a C2 and had the option on a C4S. Money wasn't the deciding factor. I feel the opposite of Johnny and Craig. I want to learn to drive my new Porsche at 100% of it's ability. Yes, the C4S would probably be faster, just as a tt would be faster than the C4s. But it would be the car and not the driver going faster. In the meantime, the only thing I feel short is in braking and I can improve the brakes on the C2 if I want.