Newbie Boxster problems - Page 2 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Hi, I'm hoping I'll be able to get some advice on my current situation. I bought a "07 Boxster 2.7 with 74k miles from a well known dealer ( not OPC) for just under £13k. And that's when the problems started. Firsy with a coolant leak- due to a pump failure, which was changed under warranty. A week after I got it back, I noted some rattling from the driver side, more obvious when the engine was warm. Got it looked into, at the local porsche dealer. They did a bore scope, and found scoring in cylinder 6. This is where the problems started. The warranty company won't pay for dismantling and looking at the engine, if the fault is not due to the scoring. They also won't pay the full amount of the engine rebuild which the garage has adviced, as its above the claim limit. This alone could leave out of pocket by £3000. And if the rattling isn't due to the scoring, they won't fix it as they only pay for "sudden failure". So I am taking it back to the dealer I bought it from to look at it. My question is, if the rattling isn't due to the scoring, can I ask them to do an engine rebuild anyways, due to the significant scoring, as the quality of the car I bought from them was not of satisfactory quality? I've had it for only about 8 weeks so far. I absolutely love the car, and this being my first one, and gutted at the experience I am having. Just wanted some advice on what you guys think I should do, accept as a reasonable offer. Thank for your advice, 😞

My best advice would be to have the dealer buy it back for what you paid for it. Then go and find another one. For me this is a head rather than heart decision. It's up to the dealer to prove the fault didn't exist when he sold you the car. If he can't do that and you become aware of it within a reasonable time/ mileage then he should make you whole. It's way easier to have him buy it back than get into a whole argument about what is wrong/ how to fix it/ who should fix it etc. In the meantime you won't be using the car and your happy purchase will become a source of angst. These problems can be repaired for reasonable money but personally there are only one or two people in the UK I'd trust to do the work. For example, if your dealer offers to pay for Hartech to rebuild the engine (or to make a significant contribution to the cost of doing so) then that might be worth considering. Hope this helps.

I totally agree warrenty is not the way to go as they can be limited as you mention. I think legally if you have found a fault with the car in a reasonable timeframe then it is reasonable for the garage to take the car back, and this must be the preferred option over a rather messy engine rebuild negotation... However whether they will take it back is a different story, they should but unless they are very good you will have to apply some pressure. Good luck, strange 2.7 don't normally suffer bore scoring I thought, but I'm no expert

Hi, Thanks so much for your advice. I am hoping that they give me either the money back / a credit note ( not ideal ). But given the experience I have had so far with them, I am going to be prepared for some pressure from their end. I'd agree about hartech- spoken to them as well, and they advised the same.Talk about honesty and not in it to make a quick buck!! Fingers crossed they are reasonable when I take the car to them this weekend.

Good luck with it at the weekend. The other thing I'd say is to make sure (if you haven't done already) that you put your concerns in writing - you can be brief and polite and clear about the problem. You are entitled to cash - you don't need to settle for a credit note. If you have a report from an OPC saying there is a bore scoring problem then they should accept that. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time - it's how they are put right that matters. If you give them the two options either to buy it back or have Hartech fix it you are being reasonable. If you set that out to them today in an email hopefully they'll have reflected on that by the time you see them at the weekend and it will be a relatively pain free conversation. Let us know how you get on.

Hi Oso, Thanks for your help. I was going to put it down in writing and give it to them when I see them. They are aware of all the problems untill now.

If I do get my money back, I was looking at an approved used Boxster 981 from an OPC, under a PCP. The deal is as below - appreciate what you guys think. 2013 Plate - black with PCM / Bose, PDK, seat heating. Retail price - 35,990. Deposit - 7000 Monthly - 477.75 - 48 months term - Final payment of 13,870. Too much to pay?

The problem is that your car seems to have suffered a certain amount of "wear and tear" which is hard to quantify. All used cars are, by definition, subject to some wear and tear. This car is eight years old with considerable miles on it; it hasn't "broken down". How long since you bought it? I think your practical choices may come down to, 1. Try to agree something with the seller, 2. Get a solicitor on the case, or 3. Sell the car and move on. It will be a tricky juggling exercise between 2 and 3 to decide which is likely to be the most cost-effective.

Hi Ozzie, I've had the car for 8 weeks, and for 2 of them, they have been in a garage. Would Bore scoring be considered as wear & tear? I am ok to sel the car, but I doubt Ill find anyone to buy it with the current rattling, and if they decide to- I will lose a considerable amount of money. Hence the stress!

8 weeks with 2 weeks in the garage, they should take the car back, but the problem is the legal mechanism to force them to do this is rather long winded and a little bit costly. Thus applying pressure on the things they care about is probably important, I would leave the car with them, it's good it's been there for 2 weeks before, but just leave it there and say you want a refund. Hopefully they will be fine, but if not apply pressure, they are like any place worried about there reputation and that's a pretty strong weapon for the buyer these days.

I totally agree warrenty is not the way to go as they can be limited as you mention. I think legally if you have found a fault with the car in a reasonable timeframe then it is reasonable for the garage to take the car back, and this must be the preferred option over a rather messy engine rebuild negotation... However whether they will take it back is a different story, they should but unless they are very good you will have to apply some pressure. Good luck, strange 2.7 don't normally suffer bore scoring I thought, but I'm no expert

I was pretty surprised that the 2.7 had bore scoring too. The main reason I didn't go for the 3.4 was due to the bore scoring that I had heard about! Any suggestions on cars. Not sure if i should go for a newer 987 / 981 now , with OP warranty of course!!

Oso said: Good luck with it at the weekend. The other thing I'd say is to make sure (if you haven't done already) that you put your concerns in writing - you can be brief and polite and clear about the problem. You are entitled to cash - you don't need to settle for a credit note. If you have a report from an OPC saying there is a bore scoring problem then they should accept that. Everyone makes mistakes from time to time - it's how they are put right that matters. If you give them the two options either to buy it back or have Hartech fix it you are being reasonable. If you set that out to them today in an email hopefully they'll have reflected on that by the time you see them at the weekend and it will be a relatively pain free conversation. Let us know how you get on. I'd second this advice from OSO, with a report from OPC saying that the bore scoring is not usual wear and tear, you will be in a strong position, so drop them a clear and friendly email up front to say you're looking for a refund on the car or have OPC or an expert fix it. The dealer's only "get out" is fair wear & tear, if you close that avenue before you get there you should have less to discuss when you go down. Bad luck for both you & the dealer on this one, but hopefully if they are well known they will stand by the car. Regarding your next purchase, the one you have mentioned is quite a departure from your current car, more than twice the cost. When you have a problem on a used car it is tempting to want to run to safety, but you could lose more than the cost of an engine rebuild just in dealer mark up on a hasty purchase so don't rush into anything! Bear in mind that PCP deals on used OPC cars are at a higher rate of interest than new cars, you may be able to buy a brand new one for similar total cost to a 2 year old used one. Get your current problem sorted first, then think about the next car with a clear head is my advice Good luck..

Yup, and get a solicitor on it FAST. Don't delay while waiting for the report. If you're going to "reject" this car successfully you need to be getting on with it.

Does bore scoring cause a rattle? Maybe the rattle is something else which can be fixed cheaply, then you can have a plan B of selling it on if the original seller won't take it back.

Hi Cmoose- it does sound more like a slapping, but I am by no means good at descrbing sounds / noises from cars!! If the casue for that noise can be fixed, I will be selling it - just feel bad that someone else will buy a car that could need a rebuild at some point!!

This may sound like a silly question, but if the engine is re-built, would the price that I want to sell it at be significantly less / any more? Thanks for all your advice - don't feel as lost now!!

Not a silly question. If you have the right folks do the rebuild it won't partiuclarly devalue the car. It may put some folks off. But others will be reassured that a credible builder has been over it carefully. But having it rebuilt now is not going to make it particularly sought after. Where it might make a difference would be to yourself, if you were to keep it long enough and put enough miles on it. Other cars of roughly similar age and mileage are still available in the main dealer network from time to time, or at least privately with the official Porsche warranty. (It's a transition age for cars like yours because to be an official approved car they need to be young enough to have two years warranty on them and be under ten when that expires). That is effectively putting a ceiling on the value of your car. So although all engines need rebuilt at some point, the fact that yours may (end up) having been done already is not going to make it particularly sought after. There's also the question of how much you'd spend on the rebuild. Do you strip it down and replace the one cylinder? - say £3k or do you do all six cylinders whilst you're in there and everything else whilst you're about it? - say £8k. It depends on what exactly you find once you open it up. But basically the fair value of your car now before doing the work that needs done ought to reflect the cost of doing that work, if that makes sense. So you said you paid £13k for your car. Your dealer would obviously have bought it for less than that, I'd guess £10k. If your car needs £3k of engine work it's now worth £7k. Note also your dealer probably has enough margin in the trade to cover the cost. Even if he doesn't it's tough luck - that's part of the reason the market allows dealers to make a profit on the stuff they get right - to help cover the cost of fixing what they get wrong. And don't worry about the next guy - that's for the dealer's conscience and the next buyer to worry about. One would hope the dealer is good enough to fess up. My guess is he'll put it to auction and cut his losses or get a specialist to rebuild the engine and then put it back on the market on that basis. Anyway, a rather long answer. As you can see it's easier just to have him buy it back and find another...

How did you get on, MPA?

Hey Oso, It went ok yesterday. The sales manager said he couldn't hear anything!! Strange consider 2 other technicians could. Said he would send it to his porsche approved garage ( in Leeds- I'm sure you'll know who) to have a look at this "noise". And about the bore scoring, said its normal, and they won't rebuild the engine as it is working, and nothing has gone wrong. So as of now, he's given me 3 options. 1.hed buy it back from me for £10750. 2.i can part ex with a car from their group and he'd get me a "better deal. 3. Nothing is found and I take the car back. Tempted to take the cheque, but a loss of approximately £2200 seems a lot for 8-10 weeks of owing a car!! Any suggestions?

At least it sounds reasonably civilised, although it must have been frustrating not to get some closure. Don't let that dishearten you, these folks are well practised in dragging things out in the hope of grinding down your resolve. If the sales manager wants to pay for it to go to OPC Leeds for a full inspection then I think you might have to let him do that. He's essentially saying he wants a second opinion on your OPC report, which is not unreasonable, given the sums of money involved. The other thing about that is if OPC Leeds say the car is sound, then you then have the option of buying a 12 month official Porsche warranty (as your car is not yet 9 years old). If they agree with your OPC that it is unsound then your sales manager has a problem; he is not going to last long selling Porsches on the basis that bore scoring is an acceptable characteristic of the car. So I think you can only gain something by having him send it to OPC Leeds - the only thing you lose is another few days without the car. You can then keep the Hartech option in reserve - you've already spoken with them so they're aware of the situation. I'm sure they'll be able to give you a full estimate in time if that is a road you want to go down. I wouldn't threaten them with the nuclear option just yet - once the lawyers are involved you'll lose all good will in the situation. The next step is to escalate it to the business owner/ dealer principal before you get the lawyers in. There's a good chance the sales manager's boss doesn't know about it yet (doesn't he read the PH forums??) and when he does hear about it that he will side with you. If you have got your lawyers on him he will most likely fight back in kind and side with his sales manager. You'll risk facing a big bill in legal fees, lots of delay and angst and an uncertain outcome. I wouldn't reject the idea of swapping it for something else he has in stock, provided he buys it back from you for the full price you paid. That said, you might not want to do any more business with them and/or not fancy anything they currently have in the yard. Do keep us posted and let us know if we can help further. (Also, to clarify - those prices are off Hartech's website, they are based on the engine being out the car already as I assumed the supplying dealer would at the very least meet the cost of removing and reinstalling the engine. As cmoose says it's at least another couple grand to do that (and it can be easier for lots of reasons to get the engine builder to do the removing and reinstallation). Bottom line is unchanged - to do it properly will cost broadly equivalent to the trade bid for the car i.e. paying for it yourself makes no sense).

MPA said: 1. He'd buy it back from me for £10750. 2. I can part ex with a car from their group and he'd get me a "better deal". Tempted to take the cheque, but a loss of approximately £2200 seems a lot for 8-10 weeks of owing a car!! Any suggestions? Surely the part-ex offer will be a much better deal than taking the cash? It's got to be the best £££ outcome.

You guys are brilliant!!!! Thanks for all your advice. I'm gonna sit it out for a couple of days till their porsche approved garage gets back to them about the noise. And then take a call. Don't think I'll have the time to take it to hartech as yet, I've spoken to them and they have given me a brief idea of the costs, and the much needed empathy, Not gonna go down the nuclear option either! I think just speak to the dealer principal might change things to some extent in my favour! Thanks again for all the advice. Will keep you posted.

Thought I'd update you guys on my car...got a call back from the dealer. He sent it to an independent Porsche specialist in Leeds. And he "cant hear anything wrong". And said there was some bore scoring which is expected in these cars, but it will run. And felt it was in good shape, good enough for him to buy it off the dealer to sell! So the dealer told me that the car is good to go, and he would buy it for £10500. Way too much to loose. So i got the car back today. Guess I'm stuck with it!! :-(

Do you want to keep the car? If you do want to keep it, you could take it to an OPC and tell them you want a Porsche Approved warranty. This can cover the car up to 10 years old. I think yours is eight already? So you'll only be able to buy 12 months, but what you can do is, just before its ninth birthday, cancel the remainder of that warranty and simultaneously buy a new 12 month warranty. That way your car will be covered up to age 10. Then use it like the maker intended, if a serious problem develops, Porsche will sort it. See here: http://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/ow... If they won't warranty it - i.e. it fails its check - then you can go back to the dealer. Did you rule out the part exchange option? I'm sure your dealer will give you a much better bid than £10.5k if you take something else off him on the other side. You still also have the option of taking it to Hartech and seeking either 1) some peace of mind or 2) renewed evidence to strengthen your argument with the supplying dealer. Edited by Oso on Tuesday 18th August 20:48

I misunderstood your post on Sunday - I thought you'd meant he was sending it to OPC Leeds but I see from your post today that he's sent it to an independent in Leeds. As per above post just now - I think the OPC route is interesting as it will either flush out any issues or if they give the car a clean bill of health you'll get the option to buy the official warranty.

I don't think I'll be able to get a porsche warranty, as it doesn't have a full porsche service history, and the bore scoring that they have already found! And if porsche don't warranty it, the dealer I feel will stand to his claim that this is normal. And he told me that bore scoring is "normal"!!!! I spoke to the independant Porsche specialist in Leeds ( without mentioning names, I'm sure you'll figure out who it is).He said that its in good shape and he's been dealing with cars like this for 35 years, and I got nothing to worry about. Think I'm gonna sell it soon, with the remainder of the warranty that I got left. And look at a 987.2 from Porsche itself! I'd pay more but I'd have piece of of mind and be able to enjoy the car! Downside of owning a Porsche - finding another car that is as much fun to drive is difficult!!!!

Hey Cmoose, Not only did the OPC report bore scoring, buts so did the independant Leeds garage. And he said its fine to drive! Tried getting more for it than the seller offered me initially, but he flat out declined, said that the car is running and it's been checked out by their garage so he won't pay my more! That's me never going back to that company again!!

Hey Cmoose, Not only did the OPC report bore scoring, buts so did the independant Leeds garage. And he said its fine to drive! Tried getting more for it than the seller offered me initially, but he flat out declined, said that the car is running and it's been checked out by their garage so he won't pay my more! That's me never going back to that company again!!

Hi MPA, Did you say that the selling garage got Porsche to check it out and they said it was okay, ( even though it was scored?). I guess if they did the selling garage is rather annoying in a strong position, even if Hartech who probably know more say it's iffy, Porsche probably counts in court. Selling it in a little while all sounds a bit unsatisfactory and not what you need..........

A few other thoughts for you MPA... If you don't want to go down the OPC route, I think cmoose is right - a trip to Hartech is the best idea. They really know their stuff. If it's regular cylinder wear they'll be able to put your mind at ease and advise you on how best to prolong the life of the engine and how to budget for future repairs. If it's a more serious issue they'll be able to arm you with the evidence you need to escalate it. If Hartech says there is a major fault, you are then in a strong position to reject the car. The law says it's up to the dealer to prove the fault did not exist when he sold you the car. Did you by any chance buy it on finance? If so the finance company should be keen to help you in arguing your case. Did you speak to the top man at the supplying dealer? You said in your original post you bought the car from a well known dealer, I'm pretty sure if there is a major fault diagnosed by Hartech - as the leading specialists on the matter - then they will want to react to that. How much oil is the engine using? Not sure you've had it long enough to tell - but one of the best non-invasive warning signs of imminent doom is excessive oil consumption. All Porsche engines use oil. Mine is pretty typical and uses a litre between about every 5k to 10k miles depending on what I'm doing in the car. Officially you should not be using more than a litre every 1k miles (although I'd say that's a lot). If you're using a litre every 500 miles you've got a serious problem. It's unlikely you're on the verge of disaster if you're not using a lot of oil. You are right that OPCs have a greater vested interest in maintaining standards, as do the better independents. There are also good cars out there privately that have been well serviced and have the official warranty - which is transferable on a private sale - and where folks aren't looking to cover the margins of a dealer. Hope the experience hasn't put you off Porsche ownership.

Oso said: All Porsche engines use oil. Actually they don't. I've had mine for five years and covered over 30.000 miles and it hasn't required a drop between oil changes.

Trev450 said: Oso said: All Porsche engines use oil. Actually they don't. I've had mine for five years and covered over 30.000 miles and it hasn't required a drop between oil changes. Same here....the 3 Porsches I have owned from brand new didn't need topping up between the 20,000 service intervals (actually, the 2.9 987 gen 2 needed a drink around the first 10K...but that was it...I put that down to running in).

Hey, I didn't speak to the top man at the dealer- as this was their "used vehicle" arm of the business. But the guy I spoke to clearly has been in the business for a while - well spoken sales person ( don't mean to sound rude ). His independent garage, also seems to be well known in the north-west.said this was normal wear & tear, and that it was absolutely fine to drive! The OPC that initially found the problem said that there was bore scoring to the point that they didn't want to let it just be, and would suggest an engine strip down to actually look at it / what's causing it. But as expected - warranty company said no - coz hey pay only for " sudden failure" So far I haven't had to top up any engine oil - and I've done about 1600 miles in the past 2 months. But the "tapping " noise is more prominent now, esp when the engine is warm. And I haven't seen any white smoke either! This has definitely not put me off a Porsche - probably the most fun I have had driving a car! Just need to make sure I get a pre-purchase inspection the next time or spec a new one out!