verifying mileage on approved used Porsche - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Long time lurker here, looking for an opinion on verifying the mileage on my 997 tt gen1. Bought my car in Jan 12 from an OPC with 2 yrs Porsche approved warranty, as a weekend toy, have enjoyed my time with the car but felt with family growing up (2 teenagers) the car was not getting the use it deserved and I wanted to sell it and get something slightly more sensible (C63/ M3/M5 etc) that we could all go out in. Took car to a well known independent who did a diagnostic check on car and said that there was a discrepancy on the car mileage between the odometer and the DME of c 12,000km, everything else (over revs etc were fine) although he did point out the service book was not the original). Contacted dealer who said I had to return car to them for inspection, a printout of the VAL from the car shows the discrepancy. Data from car was sent to Porsche AG who insist that the car has not been clocked and they say that the average speed (running hours vs odometer speed) "looks about right" at 29 mph, if i use the DME mileage i get an average speed of 36.35mph which also could be about right depending how/where a car is driven. Porsche seem happy to ignore the DME mileage and say I quote "the unit that records the mileage is the instrument cluster, the mileage from the instrument cluster matches the running hours of the engine, I can confirm the mileage has never been tampered with." ( 2 minutes on YouTube shows how easily odometer can be adjusted!) In a previous message Porsche say "Porsche will determine and confirm mileage on vehicle through the running miles as accumulated on the internal control unit, this is accessed through our system tester, the DME itself has a logged mileage, however it is not an accurate reflection and something we do not use to confirm mileage. Porsche AG are in the process of having the visibility of mileage through the DME removed for this reason. The external independent dealers do not have the same level of tools available to accurately determine mileage this is why they often use the DME unit" I have a few questions for you all, 1 for those of you that have had PPI's done on cars how often have you seen discrepancies between odometer and DME mileage? 2 If Porsche remove visibility of DME mileage from VAL is it then OK only to use running hours vs odometer to verify mileage, and will this be only way in future? (green light for clocking?) To get best price for my car I feel I need to sell it to an independent dealer, any dealer worth his salt will do a diagnostic dump and see the difference between the reading, will that dealer be happy to buy on average speed vs odometer?? This means I am unable to market my car to where I can get best price, having bought an official approved used porsche i feel badly let down; Buyer beware even at an OPC!!!!!!!!! sorry if i have gone on a bit any replies welcome!!!

Sell back to supplying dealer?

Clocking cars or even the suggestion of it from a publicity point of view, is bad news for dealers. As an OPC with all the right tools they're telling you about they of all people should have spotted this discrepancy when preparing the car, and should be held responsible for not doing so. Officially you should reject the car and request a refund in full but I'd suggest trying to discuss the matter with the DP saying you'd like the matter dealt with quickly rather than have to go through Trading Standards (clocking is a criminal offence so they'll do all the work to prosecute should the matter get that far), the Various trade associations they'll be members of (which have dispute resolution services) and of course the press. A likely sensible outcome is to get a refund less an allowance for the use you've had out of it, they can decide if they dare retail it again or more likely send it to auction.

thegoose said: Clocking cars or even the suggestion of it from a publicity point of view, is bad news for dealers. As an OPC with all the right tools they're telling you about they of all people should have spotted this discrepancy when preparing the car, and should be held responsible for not doing so. Officially you should reject the car and request a refund in full but I'd suggest trying to discuss the matter with the DP saying you'd like the matter dealt with quickly rather than have to go through Trading Standards (clocking is a criminal offence so they'll do all the work to prosecute should the matter get that far), the Various trade associations they'll be members of (which have dispute resolution services) and of course the press. A likely sensible outcome is to get a refund less an allowance for the use you've had out of it, they can decide if they dare retail it again or more likely send it to auction. But if I read it right, Porsche have said that the car is fine, not clocked. The reading that is causing the "issue" is incorrect and they are trying to get that reading hidden from the prying public in future. So they don't accept that there has been any dodgy dealings. If so, how is the OP to proceed with the DP and/or trading standards? Bert

thanks for the comments, the Dealer and DP are taking the line of Porsche that the car is not clocked despite the DME reading, sell back offer from Dealer is considerably below what I had been offered by the specialist independant. Porsche seem to be happy to go by average speed but surely a car based in a city may average only 20 mph which would equal say 20,000 miles over 1000 running hours, whereas a car doing more motorway and A road running could average 30-40mph and so cover 30-40,000 miles over the same running hours, how can this be a true way to verify mileage?

BertBert said: But if I read it right, Porsche have said that the car is fine, not clocked. The reading that is causing the "issue" is incorrect and they are trying to get that reading hidden from the prying public in future. So they don't accept that there has been any dodgy dealings. If so, how is the OP to proceed with the DP and/or trading standards? Bert Anything "incorrect" with respect to recorded mileage and Trading Standards are VERY interested. If I were the DP the last thing I'd want is any suggestion of incorrect mileage about any car my dealership had supplied being publicised. The question has to be asked why the DME & dash figures are different and why the OPC didn't notice it when prep'ing and selling the car? Unless there's something ridiculous about them, I don't think the running hours and/or average speed have much relevance - I've had pukka genuine cars with 55mph average speed and 25mph - these are by no means the limits of what's reasonably possible. I suppose below 10-15mph is unlikely as is above 100mph (even on autobahns..).

What do the MOT certificates state (unless post jan 2012)? Edited by f1ashgordon on Thursday 18th April 13:02

Mot certificates all add up as does service history on Porsche system, although its first service was not until 2 years old and 8000 miles,in the opinion of the independent dealer the mileage would have been wound back before this first service

owfast said: Mot certificates all add up as does service history on Porsche system, although its first service was not until 2 years old and 8000 miles,in the opinion of the independent dealer the mileage would have been wound back before this first service That makes sense, it happens a lot - plenty of private owners seem to have no qualms about defrauding dealers (or any buyer probably) when trading their cars in if they can get more money for them, so for a few quid they'll employ the services of a "mileage correction service". They will nearly always get away with it too sadly.

So Porsche are saying they check the mileage against the odometer by verifying it against the 'internal control unit'. Only official Porsche centres can read this. The 'DME' also records mileage but this often records wrong, so they ignore it? Why would it record wrong, seems odd, doesn't mean to say its not true though I suppose... I would have thought the most likely thing to be wrong was the odometer.

thegoose said: The question has to be asked why the DME & dash figures are different and why the OPC didn't notice it when prep'ing and selling the car? I thought the (official) answer was that the DME figure is not to be trusted in this regard? If so, I suspect the OP won't be able to get very far with that line as he is finding. Bert

BertBert said: I thought the (official) answer was that the DME figure is not to be trusted in this regard? If so, I suspect the OP won't be able to get very far with that line as he is finding. Bert Maybe, but I'd want it in writing from Porsche AG that the DME data is not be relied upon. I can't see why it's there though in that case, and why it would be wrong? It's not rocket science to record the mileage in two places or by two methods and they should always correlate closely even if they're not exactly the same. I once had a 1992 Bentley with 176,000 on the analogue dial and a slightly different figure by about 1500-2000 miles on the digital one display (the dash had both), but it was so close percentage-wise it was clear to see it was just the tolerance between the varying accuracy of the two devices.

I believe that there is nearly always a discrepancy between the odometer and the DME. I am not sure why. As I understand it though, that difference should not in the 12,000Km range but maybe up to a couple of thousand KM difference. I am sure there are others on here more knowledgeable but that is how I remember it when researching my purchase

I have just done more work on this, Porsche say that the DME is not accurate, I have two downloads of data from car, the first was taken at the independent dealer, the second at the OPC Odometer Date dash DDME difference 15/03/2013 51277 64158 12881 Data read at independent 19/03/2013 51936 64818 12882 VAL at OPC as you can see the difference after a 409km trip is less than 1km, yet my DME mileage vs odometer shows a 25% discrepancy, how can they say DME mileage is inaccurate???

No idea, everything is consistent in those readings apart from the original 25% discrepancy. Time to take it out of the dealership's hands. There's potentially a lot riding on this for the OPC so I'm not surprised you're being fobbed off, sometimes that tactic is enough to get people to drop the issue. Can you talk to Porsche GB directly and trading standards? Threaten DP when you have trading standards' advice? Incidentally, where do you get the 409km from? the difference between dates on both DASH and DDME is 659/660 Edited by f1ashgordon on Thursday 18th April 18:01

sorry typo yes difference is 1 km over 660/659 kmh, the case is also in hands of Porsche Customer support, I have sent them my figures and ask how they can still say the DME reading can't be trusted. Haven't gone as far as trading standards yet but looks like it is the next route if Porsche continue to deny there is a problem!

Good luck, I certainly wouldn't let it drop.

This is rather interesting, especially as I'm currently looking to buy my first 911. Did you have a PPI done prior to purchase? Would be worth getting the view of one of the PPI experts who inspect cars for a living as they must have good knowledge of these issues and perhaps see this on a daily basis. Peter Morgan and co please chime in with your wisdom and let us know what you think.

owfast said: sorry typo yes difference is 1 km over 660/659 kmh, the case is also in hands of Porsche Customer support, I have sent them my figures and ask how they can still say the DME reading can't be trusted. Haven't gone as far as trading standards yet but looks like it is the next route if Porsche continue to deny there is a problem! I've never experienced this with a Porsche but a car I owned some years ago had an odometer problem. While the speedo speed was correct I noticed that the odometer was not advancing properly. I checked this several times over a known distance and the reading was off by a considerable amount. I do not recall the amount now but it was on the order of after a 15 mile drive the odometer would register just a few miles distance. I took the car to the dealer and reported the problem. The dealer put the car on a chassis dyno (rolling road) and tested the speedo and reported back it was reporting/showing the correct speed. I repeated the problem was not with the speedo but with the odometer and was told the dealer found no problem and that was that. Since the car was under warranty I decided what the heck. If the odometer under reported mileage that was not my fault. Years later I came upon some info about an odometer problem in this car. The lube used in the odometer was too thick and under some conditions this could cause the odometer to fail to register miles covered. I learned there was a TSB on this but the dealer in the area where I now lived didn't have the odometer kit in stock and I decided to leave it be. I might mention the trip odometer worked just fine. I'm sure had someone read the DME and its engine run time the odometer and run time would have raised some eyebrows.

No i did not have a PPI done as it was a Porsche Approved car from an OPC, didnt think it was necessary surely they should be the gold standard? have certainly learnt my lesson and would insist on an Independent PPI in the future. The dealer who was looking to buy my car inspects many Porsche's and has been a great deal of help to me, and the arguments coming back from Porsche to ignore the DME reading as it cannot be trusted just make no sense to me, I think my figures prove this. I would say if you are looking to buy you have to get a PPI or have a sight of the data download from Porsche (VAL) if you cannot see this walk away. Another thing I have learned to look for is the service book, I understand that from the 997 onwards the build sticker with option codes is stuck in the service book, Prior to having this 997 I had a 996 c4s, this had the sticker under the front hood, when the independent looked at my service book this sticker was not there so the book was a replacement raising suspicions further, so you have to be careful!!

Very interesting Tom, thanks for sharing.

Was looking at a 997 at OPC Reading. When I asked if they would let me have a PPI done by Peter Morgan, the salesman asked me who Peter is and looked at me as if I was stupid. He went into the back and asked the rest of his colleagues and apparently none of them have heard of Mr Morgan. Interesting isn't it. He was basically trying to make me think I was foolish for even thinking of going down the PPI route. Lesson learned, get passed the bs, do what you planned and never be swayed... even in Reading.

Aren't the DME readouts in Km's ?

Yes distance travelled recorded in the DME in km

Tom 911V said: Yes distance travelled recorded in the DME in km Probs missed this from the OP. But though the OP states there's a 12000KM difference between the DME and the odometer. Does he actually state that the DME is 12K higher than the Odometer, ie not the other way around? If that was the case, then everything is ok isnt it.

Wozy68 said: Probs missed this from the OP. But though the OP states there's a 12000KM difference between the DME and the odometer. Does he actually state that the DME is 12K higher than the Odometer, ie not the other way around? If that was the case, then everything is ok isnt it. He added figures yesterday - the dash is reading 12,800kms less than the DME. How Porsche can claim that's not a result of being clocked is incredible. I somehow doubt they'd be making the same argument if the OP hadn't bought it from an OPC. However - if you do go the trading standards route, don't Porsche have an obvious defence? You've owned the car for over a year, and I assume it's impossible to verify when this discrepancy appeared. Won't they just claim "it was fine when it left us"? Especially since they can claim they have all the necessary equipment to have fully verified the car before sale.

davek_964 said: Wozy68 said: Probs missed this from the OP. But though the OP states there's a 12000KM difference between the DME and the odometer. Does he actually state that the DME is 12K higher than the Odometer, ie not the other way around? If that was the case, then everything is ok isnt it. He added figures yesterday - the dash is reading 12,800kms less than the DME. How Porsche can claim that's not a result of being clocked is incredible. I somehow doubt they'd be making the same argument if the OP hadn't bought it from an OPC. However - if you do go the trading standards route, don't Porsche have an obvious defence? You've owned the car for over a year, and I assume it's impossible to verify when this discrepancy appeared. Won't they just claim "it was fine when it left us"? Especially since they can claim they have all the necessary equipment to have fully verified the car before sale. Ah thanks for that. Just hope the OP hasn't done more than 12000KMS since ownership, would I guess be the answer to that.

davek_964 said: He added figures yesterday - the dash is reading 12,800kms less than the DME. How Porsche can claim that's not a result of being clocked is incredible. I somehow doubt they'd be making the same argument if the OP hadn't bought it from an OPC. However - if you do go the trading standards route, don't Porsche have an obvious defence? You've owned the car for over a year, and I assume it's impossible to verify when this discrepancy appeared. Won't they just claim "it was fine when it left us"? Especially since they can claim they have all the necessary equipment to have fully verified the car before sale. In theory they have a defence but look at the balance of probabilities. If the OP were responsible for clocking it why would he be the one kicking up a stink about it? If he did it and was caught out when trying to sell to an indecent dealer surely he'd either get it re-corrected and sell elsewhere with everything correct, or offload it to a non-specialist who wouldn't (be able to) check? The fact that he went to Porsche to complain in the first place speaks volumes for the likelihood he's the victim here.

It seems that someone has clocked it. Ultimately, there only seems to be three things it can be 1. The op has clocked it himself 2. It was clocked before porsche got it, they didn't check, and 'unknowingly' sold it on. 3. It was clocked before Porsche got it, they did know about it through checks and chose to sell it anyway, assuming they would never get caught. Place your bets! Apart from 1, it looks bad for Porsche, but worryingly they seem to be on the defensive suggesting the hours logged on the DME are more accurate than the miles on the DME.... Ps. This assumes a 4, which is Porsche clocked it, is not an option!

I suspect it's issue 3. I am surprised Porsche haven't taken the "it was fine when we sold it" approach, since it would be the easiest defence - which makes me think they knew very well the numbers didn't match when they sold it.

ITP said: Apart from 1, it looks bad for Porsche, but worryingly they seem to be on the defensive suggesting the hours logged on the DME are more accurate than the miles on the DME.... The method of measurement confirms that the hours will always be more accurate than the distance.

Magic919 said: ITP said: Apart from 1, it looks bad for Porsche, but worryingly they seem to be on the defensive suggesting the hours logged on the DME are more accurate than the miles on the DME.... The method of measurement confirms that the hours will always be more accurate than the distance. I wrote that badly, the hours are accurate but I meant to say in relation to verifying the mileage. Porsche are saying they ignore the DME mileage in relation to the odometer but look at the ignition 'on' hours in relation to the odometer as a better guide! This is plainly ridiculous, as has been suggested earlier, due to potential use of the car meaning 1000 hours could be 20000 miles or 50000 miles. The DME mileage log would never be that far different and it also appears, if the Indy is right, can only be different at figure lower than the odometer., not 12000kms higher in this case.

Could it be that it had in its past an engine failure and as a result the odeometer has been reset to coincide with the new lump ???

Aside from it not being the usual method, a new engine would have a new engine number. I'd expect an HPI type check to throw that up.

The data logger in the DME keeps a record of the distance the car has travelled, this figure is actually calculated using the cars stability management system (PSM). The distance travelled figure held within the DME should be smaller or equal to the figure displayed on the instrument cluster odometer that stares you in the face each time you sit in the car. In reality the two figures (odometer and DME) are never the same due to the manner in which the PSM system calculates the distance travelled in part revolutions of a wheel. The incomplete revolutions caused by a simple procedure such as parking or manovering can be used to explain why there is never total parity between the two figures. On a genuine unmolested car the odometer should and always will read higher than the distance travelled figure displayed on the DME, on occasion the discrepancy can amount to a few thousand kilometres in favour of the dashboard. The diagnostic machine used to interrogate the car is displaying data and not calculating or writing it therefore the figures displayed will be the same irrespective of whether a different diagnostic machine is used, provided of course that said machine has the ability to read said information. In a situation where a 997 turbo DME displays a figure 12,000km higher than the odometer there is only one explanation. The mileage on the dashboard has been altered. The DME also records the total number of operating hours. This figure relates to a period of time when the DME is live, I.e when the key is placed in the ignition and the ignition is turned on. In order to get a handle on where and how a car has been used a simple distance over time calculation can be used to calculate the cars average speed. I've seen averages ranging from as low as 16mph to averages as high as 50mph. The former a London car (lots of work, little distance the latter very much a motorway car). The average speed helps paint a picture of how the miles have been made up but doesn't tell you how far the car has travelled that information is held elsewhere. Too many variables alter average speed, traffic jams, speed limits and driving styles to name but a few. Only one thing changes the mileage, namely how far the car has travelled. Both the 29mph and 36mph average speeds that the OP mentioned could of course be feasible but to explain away the aforementioned discrepancy by disregarding the recorded distance and relying exclusively on the average speed is wrong. In my experience approx. 10% of the cars that I inspect have been clocked. Needless to say we decline to purchase such vehicles. Hope this helps Tom 911virgin Edited by Tom 911V on Friday 19th April 13:13

Far Cough said: Could it be that it had in its past an engine failure and as a result the odeometer has been reset to coincide with the new lump ??? I think that would still class as "clocking".

BertBert said: I think that would still class as "clocking". It could be I spose. In the past I have looked at Jap stuff where the engine has been renewed and the mileage "corrected" to show that which the engine has done so to speak. Not sure what Porsche protocol is ? I know that most manufacturers can "correct" the mileage but only if it is very few , like delivery mileage being taken off but not 12k !

Far Cough said: BertBert said: I think that would still class as "clocking". It could be I spose. In the past I have looked at Jap stuff where the engine has been renewed and the mileage "corrected" to show that which the engine has done so to speak. Not sure what Porsche protocol is ? I know that most manufacturers can "correct" the mileage but only if it is very few , like delivery mileage being taken off but not 12k ! The odometer is meant to display the distance a vehicle has covered in total, regardless of how many engines, gearboxes or whatever it's had, even replacement bodyshells. In fact you could have a proper "Trigger's Broom" car where nothing at all was actually original but the number on the dash should still be the total distance that the vehicle carrying that identity has covered from new.

Owfast Have a look at this ... mileage is the least of worries ... http://youtu.be/0Y0z3BTVasA It would be interesting to know if this is on the HPi data as damaged repaired etc ... Edited by Andyuk911 on Friday 19th April 17:05

So OP.. What was the outcome on this? OPC and Porsche AG saying it is NOT tampered with but 911V saying the dashboard mileage MUST be altered... ?

Andyuk911 said: Owfast Have a look at this ... mileage is the least of worries ... http://youtu.be/0Y0z3BTVasA It would be interesting to know if this is on the HPi data as damaged repaired etc ... Edited by Andyuk911 on Friday 19th April 17:05 Just stumbled across this thread, looks a bloody good repair, at least it went on a jig and not a chain and lampost job. Carl

Just hope that was recorded - I would hate to think someone is driving around in that without knowing the full history. They are never 100% after a big impact.

That video certainly puts worries of a single entry in rev range 3, 4 or 5 into context!

A friend of a friend who offers these "mileage correction" services told me the main dealer are his biggest clients. Make of that what you will. If a reputable indie has said that 10% of cars he inspects are clocked which are low volume cars that don't really depreciate, imagine what the cars like all the lease Mercedes / BMW percentages are like!

jayxx83 said: A friend of a friend who offers these "mileage correction" services told me the main dealer are his biggest clients. Make of that what you will. If a reputable indie has said that 10% of cars he inspects are clocked which are low volume cars that don't really depreciate, imagine what the cars like all the lease Mercedes / BMW percentages are like! Surely when they get Austen the dealers can still pickup there has been tampering as the dme, hours run, average speed etc don't tally? Carl

Sorry for bumping and old thread, but i found this; http://www.mycarly.com/product/porsche-app/ can check over-rev and mileage data for particular Porsche models

Tom 911V said: Yes distance travelled recorded in the DME in km So the hours in the dme must be less than the hours in the tacko. Instead the hours of the posip (airbag) of what must be higher than the hours of the dme on average? I saw a 997 with this report: 91000 km tacko 88000 km dme 1800 hours in dme 2300 hours in the airbag. It is OK ?