996 Hot Rod v 996 GT3 - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

£79,995 for the CSR hot rod and £59,995 for the low miles time warp GT3. The CSR must be a v.special 911 to command more money than 911 royalty. Nice to see 996 commanding top dollar. Someone spent £100k recently on that 996. Bit worrying already selling though.

“Well you see sir, we have sold numerous full spec CSR cars, that last was up at nearly £80k so you should really think about going for that extra suspension work as there is clearly a market for it should you decide to sell”

I’ll take the yellow one...

CSR hot rod very similar money to a lovely GT4 with ceramics RPM also have for sale. I think this 996 is RPM take on Singering a 996, Carbon everywhere. Full works CSR treatment as far as you can possibly take the concept money no object. https://rpmtechnik.co.uk/sales/vehicle/981-gt4/

I’d like the yellow GT3, but in that purple colour....

^^^^ that would be my dream 996.

I think the CSR will be a tough sell, the Carrera lightweight build was more bespoke if someone is in the market for the ultimate M96 996 (although I can't fathom why you would choose one over a pukka Mez 996), the CSR is largely off the shelf components? I always considered it a rolling show case for the various CSR upgrades rather than a realistic financial option.

Yep, it will still bore-score, D-chunk, wear camshaft guides and the AOS will probably fail, since none of those faults have been addressed in the engine. If it had a full Hartech rebuild/3.9 upgrade, it would be worth about £40K to my eyes, as the GT3 has the provenance that the CSR clearly lacks. Looks great, but basically it's a project car and they are never justifiable financially.

I really don’t understand why you would have one over a GT3 either....and they have four CSR’s for sale at the moment so maybe the owners don’t fall in love with them either. Funnily enough this popped up on my YouTube feed the other day... https://youtu.be/w7Wqe8wLtbI

I can't help thinking the sweet-spot of a hot rodded 996 would be an early model in a catchy colour, like this: https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201... - £2.5k on the interior (GT3 console delete, Recaro P.P with snazzy tartan or pash centre retrim) - £2.5k on coil-overs and basic suspension overhaul with geo set up. - £1.5k OZ Alleggerita or Fuchs replica rims. - £2k on full service, semi solid engine mounts, low temp thermostat. With luck you will have a fairly light weight, tactile and personalised 996 for £20k.

Would love to see lap times of the CSR vs the GT3, but agree... it's just an aftermarket 996 at the end of the day.

Desert Dragon said: £79,995 for the CSR hot rod and £59,995 for the low miles time warp GT3. The CSR must be a v.special 911 to command more money than 911 royalty. Nice to see 996 commanding top dollar. Someone spent £100k recently on that 996. Bit worrying already selling though. I think the SY Mk 1 GT3 is my old car. Lovely thing.

I'm a big fan of the CSR concept, I think you need to drive one of these cars to appreciate the joys and how good a stock 996 can be made to be. There is a CSR register of all the builds online too which is a nice touch. Mine was CSR build number 17 if it's owned by anyone on PH! It really does compare well with the 996 GT3 in all areas, including the engine. Now I realise I am comparing a vanilla 3.6 Carerra engine against the Mezger here, but hear me out. The combination of LWFW, top end engine rebuild and lighter kervweight really made the CSR fly, and the torque in particular was very impressive, if not quite having the top end fireworks of the Mezger. On the handling side the KW v3s and Wavetrac LSD were excellent. I do a decent chunk of track work for which the GT3 is now better suited but as a road car I still to this day prefer the CSR to the GT3. The fun with the CSR is that you can bespoke to your tastes and have something which is unique but backed by an indie with a great rep and with knowledgeable people that share the passion. Realistically if you spend 15k on donor car + 25k (max) on mods you are still 20k less than a GT3 for which you need to pay 60k for a decent one. You pays your money etc. The purple car was an RPM build of the ultimate Evo spec of the 996 CSR concept so it's had the kitchen sink thrown at it.

I don’t think that you can easily compare these cars to be honest. The GT3 was built to pound around race tracks for hours on end and not break. The 996 being more focused on this point that the 997 which was more of a road biased compromise but still very track capable. Testament to that is that incredibly 20 years on, I am not aware of a 996 or 7 GT3 having engines or gearboxes replaced. Given how much track work many of them have done that is genuinely amazing. Like all race engines they are designed to operate constantly at very high rpm levels and deliver torque and power according. There are therefore little compromises in their engineering for road use - especially the 996. For some that can translate into a driving experience similar to a migraine. To others it is driving nirvana The CSR is a different animal which - whilst I’m sure being track capable - is not designed for the same level of track activity as the GT3. The engine is a nicely modified stock 996 engine. The GT3 engine is derived from the 956/962 unit and will cost you the thick end of 40k if you wanted to put one in your kit car. I think that the CSR is more of a road biased hot rod which incorporates some nicely judged upgrades. I am sure they are a delight to drive on the road. It really depends on what you are looking for from your car. Ultimately a CSR can never be a GT3 and vice versa. But £10k spent on a 996 GT3 either sharpening it up for track or softening up for road would probably make more economic sense ( in my opinion. The 996 GT3 will always be the benchmark for the ultimate water cooled analog driving experience. It would take some car to beat that. I haven’t driven one yet but I live in hope!

There was a GT3 with aerokit removed and a 'charged Mez engine in T911 a while back. Ultimate Q car spec. I would be happy with a set of GT3 buckets and gen 2 GT3 wheels on my vanilla C2, I don't need Mez or a track weapon. The stocker does 95% I need and the GT3 bling would add the last 5%.

Lots of people trying to make a turn on branding and the Singer model. If someone wants a bespoke special then build something you want and accept that it won’t hold the value of a manufacturers low production tested and professionally developed vehicle. Read the spec of the CSR and it’s a bunch of potentially well chosen bits. I don’t see anything CSR developed with KW suspension, they aren’t Manthey are they ? The £80k ‘EVO’ is a £40k car, max imo. It’s a 996 with a heap of bits, no comparison to GT3

Adrian-9iafn said: It’s a 996 with a heap of bits, no comparison to GT3 Objectively you are right, but drive them both back-to-back and you might be enlightened. For me it's about the driving experience and what you are seeking to get out of owning and using a car. Having owned both, accepting Steve Rance's comments about the right tool for the right job, I think the CSR is worthy of comparison with a vanilla GT3. Whether it is "better" or not is entirely subjective.

And subjectively it's got to be £20k better!

I agree, although, as I think you know, the £80k car is a red herring. Most of us would be buying a 997.2 GT3 or an Exige 410 at that kind of money! It makes more sense at <40k which reflects most of the customer cars. Gratuitous pic of my old steed tacking Luffield.

anonymous said: [redacted] If this is my car you are referring to I was looking to sell two cars (including the 996) purely to make space for a new project which is getting pretty heavy. I have however decided to keep all the cars and build a larger place to store them all in; nothing whatsoever to do with the merits of the car. My 996 has not been driven for a considerable time now but I have already contacted Manthey for final stage development together, so I expect it to be fully complete in 2020. For me the engineering challenges when taking on a project of this nature is the most important part of the ownership experience. If I get a chance I will get some reputable journos to review the completed car; hopefully with a GT3 alongside, as the difference in the driving in the case of my CLR is a million miles away from what the GT3 offers. I can't comment on the CSR as I haven't driven one. 250kg removed, no PAS, unique suspension set-up... all make comparing with a GT3 about as relevant as comparing with a Cayenne.

Heathrow said: Objectively you are right, but drive them both back-to-back and you might be enlightened. For me it's about the driving experience and what you are seeking to get out of owning and using a car. Having owned both, accepting Steve Rance's comments about the right tool for the right job, I think the CSR is worthy of comparison with a vanilla GT3. Whether it is "better" or not is entirely subjective. Let’s not forget that a complete exhaust and a remap (or a Manthey K400 conversion) will see the Mk 1 Mezger producing 400+ hp at a stratospheric 8000-8200 rpm, to extract either figure from the stock 996C2/4 motor (let alone reliably) would cost many, many thousand of pounds. RPMT have done an excellent job in building/reinforcing the CSR brand, but the reality of the matter is any of the UK’s better independents could do exactly the same (and/or better) and my guess is, probably for less money. The £80K CSR whilst no doubt a rolling showroom for the brand, is pure folly from a financial perspective. As a sharper roadgoing car, the CSR no doubt has its place, but as soon as you start wanting to track a 996/7 hard, the watercooled Porsche GT cars are pretty much peerless. 80K will get you into some very decent watercooled GT kit from Stuttgart these days, forget not too that they come with the benefit of decent residuals, bullet proof drivetrains and years of continuous R&D.

Adrian-9iafn said: Lots of people trying to make a turn on branding and the Singer model. If someone wants a bespoke special then build something you want and accept that it won’t hold the value of a manufacturers low production tested and professionally developed vehicle. Read the spec of the CSR and it’s a bunch of potentially well chosen bits. I don’t see anything CSR developed with KW suspension, they aren’t Manthey are they ? The £80k ‘EVO’ is a £40k car, max imo. It’s a 996 with a heap of bits, no comparison to GT3 The big difference with Singer over everyone else (from what I can understand) is that you can’t go to Singer and get some of their bespoke parts and get them added to your car. Although I know the engine is built by someone else so maybe that is possible to get hold of. With the likes of RPM or Paul Stephens with his cars you can go to them and select from the menu.....so they’re almost defeating their own purpose of trying to build a brand. And also I am not sure exactly how much of these cars is actually bespoke...maybe the interiors but I wonder how much of the mechanical components are.

anonymous said: [redacted] If I spent £100k on a bespoke car I'd want to drive it unless it did not quite live up to expectations! Thats the slight concern but I have a feeling the £80k CSR is a rolling showcase of packages that RPM offer. Been some quite good publicity around the car with Tim Harvey.

I often add aftermarket parts to cars, knowing that when I come to sell it will add very little to the resale. For me this was never the point. I added bespoke carbon throttle bodies, cams, head work and Motec to my 964RS. I didn’t call it a Palmer RS and expect to get most of my money back, I’m glad because I didn’t ! Ruf, Techart can justify a name and badge, Singer too. Paul Stevens and RPM are building some interesting cars. But cars anyone can build Oh RWB is art in my view, he’s just &#128526; I know why companies like doing this, because it’s interesting, offers a chunk of work to keep staff busy and so on. I think it’s great but I still wouldn’t dream of paying £20k over a GT3

[quote=Adrian-9iafn Paul Stevens and RPM are building some interesting cars. But cars anyone can build [/quote] Here's a good one... https://www.paul-stephens.com/current-availability...

I like their PS Le Mans Classic more. Circa £250k. I wonder if PS sold all his originally planned nos of 10 allocations for Le Mans Classic? Quality certainly looks a notch above his previous creations. Very expensive to do a hot rod properly and even more so if air cooled. Thats why I find it surprising they come up for sale so soon after being built. Member on here selling a lovely blue hot rod 912 he's just dropped circa 220k in. Selling for approx 160k and never driven! Looks an amazing car.

anonymous said: [redacted] Some very weathy people who can buy off the shelf supercars et al enjoy the process of speccing & seeing 'their' unique car being built, once it's finished they lose interest in it, becomes just another car in their extensive collections. Or the red wine has gone to my head & I'm talking complete b ks

uhm, as for modding 996's - I wonder what it would cost to get poppopbangbang to build a car? that appeals a lot to me (although I don't think I could afford it!)

Don’t forget the labour time is significant to manually build a car. Singer quote 4,000 hrs plus. If you assume you want a degree of skill then you are probably paying over £25.00 per hour add the facility and a little margin your over £50 for sure that’s £200k gone already. Get a really skilled team and add design etc then this could easily be significantly more They have solved this challenge, it’s called mass production, JIT etc. Reasonable numbers produced and so on. If you want bespoke there IS a cost. Unless demand is really high keeping the value invested will be tough... For me £250k on the ‘Le Mans’ just doesn’t work. If I was to embark on a project I’d want everything as I’d like it. That would be the fun, at least I’d get some return on googling wheel images, obsessing about stance and wheel offsets, thinking that the weight of a carbon backed Recaro would be noticeable.

Agree it would be epic to commission your own car! Re PS Le Mans was just comparing to PS 3.2 Carrera update for £189k. With so many hot rods up for sale and with many of them covering little or no mileage before they're put up for sale tends to suggest owners are maybe not thinking their end goals build through properly or their expectations are not being met by the various outfits modifying these cars. I'd be trying to build the perfect fun car (for me) to keep forever The owner of the white PS 3.2 backdate for £189k for example also put it up for sale straight after it was built way back in 2011! Having said this every day people walk into a showroom buy a super SUV or Supercar and lose £50-100k the minute they walk out. Even done myself but I tend to keep the cars so any loss irrelevant. I'd be annoyed if I dropped £200k-£300k on a hot rod and or back date and I wasn't happy with it. To add insult to injury it then sits in the classifieds for the next 9 years unsold!

It may well be that when you are having a bespoke car built that you are happy to pay relatively large labour sums and obsess about getting it exactly to your spec. But to me there are several problems. The first is I don't trust my own design skills to put together something super nice! And we've all seen the ghastly things people do thinking they've created something good. Then you've payed to have something done, not the value of the end result. So then you look at the white PS car and the price of £189k looks insane for a 3.2 backdate. It's a well built car by all accounts, but driving along in it won't feel any different to driving a nice 3.2! My bespoke hot rod took many years to do. It was fabulous, but still not right when finally finished. Luckily it was started at a different time and didn't cost anything like the eye watering amounts you'd pay today. Bert

Exactly! When the original owner commissioned the white PS build he must have spent well over £200k and this was back in 2011 when the £ was still stronger than where we are today albeit 2008 credit crunch really took the wind out of everyones sails. I spoke to PS sales guy about the white PS autoart £189k car circa 2011/2012. Young sounding salesman said all the right things and was very posh but instead at the time I bought low mile air cooled for £50k! I could have bought four of them at the time for the same money as the PS autoart if I could find them and friends thought I was crazy paying £50k for a time warp air cooled. I had no idea anyone would be crazy enough to pay say circa £250k for a restored 2.4s and or restomod etc when they were £15-20k sheds not all that long ago! Not why I bought the air cooled but doubled my money when I sold my air-cooled over a period of 4 years! Glad I did not go for the PS autoart car seeing it is still for sale after all these years with barely any more miles. It looks lovely if you don't look at the panels too closely and I'd want to pay say £89k knowing I might be lucky to get back £75k maybe a bit better from a like minded enthusiast but even at this sort of money a 3.2 Carrera type drive not for everyone. At £189k just doesn't make sense. Also I always find there's the odd angle around the rear and rear quarter were the backdates always tend to show their heft.

I think these cars (when building it yourself) are a totally different proposition than just buying a GT3. You do it not because you can’t afford a GT3, you do it because just buying the GT3 is a bit boring. The fun is in having parts made, doing your research, agonising over cam profiles, etc etc. Resale really doesn’t come into it I don’t think. How to price it if you want to sell it is of course going to be hard, and I suspect we need more of such cars in the market before rough price tiers are formed. RPM may as well price high and then see what interest they get- I’ve been in that car and it’s fast, well screwed together and goes round a corner with conviction. Of course the elephant in the room is the stalled UK economy and the next big inflection point is coming in June. Until then uncertainty will increase.

Desert Dragon said: I like their PS Le Mans Classic more. Circa £250k. I wonder if PS sold all his originally planned nos of 10 allocations for Le Mans Classic? Quality certainly looks a notch above his previous creations. Haha no of course he hasn’t!! Last I heard from someone he had only sold a couple!!

Dammit said: Of course the elephant in the room is the stalled UK economy and the next big inflection point is coming in June. Until then uncertainty will increase. you need to move on from anti Brexit talk and other crap. stock markets been going up for 2 weeks like wild fire. I am making money like no tomorrow on it, you cannot really loose, 2020 will be 8500. unemployment lowest since 1975 ! £ on the way up wages beat inflation. you don't know what you are talking about I wish people would move on after losing Brexit and being anti all the time. you did all the scare talk and failed 2 months ago lol... now you have another date to bulls t about. Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 2nd January 08:43

ditchvisitor said: Desert Dragon said: I like their PS Le Mans Classic more. Circa £250k. I wonder if PS sold all his originally planned nos of 10 allocations for Le Mans Classic? Quality certainly looks a notch above his previous creations. Haha no of course he hasn’t!! Last I heard from someone he had only sold a couple!! PS have done well to sell a couple in current mkt conditions. Money no object, and with no Le Mans badging etc I'd love to own a similar mech spec G series car. PS take on the mechanical spec seems really well thought out for what works here on UK roads. Dyed in the wool air cooled owners generally really aren't that bothered about having perfect fit and finish on interior and frunk etc so I'd like the mechanical spec of that G series in a car thats been lightened but not back dated. DP Motorpsort did this one a few years ago which I fell in love with. With PAS it would be perfect but I could live with as is https://flatsixes.com/cars/tuned-porsches/the-dp-m...

Desert Dragon said: Agree it would be epic to commission your own car! Re PS Le Mans was just comparing to PS 3.2 Carrera update for £189k. With so many hot rods up for sale and with many of them covering little or no mileage before they're put up for sale tends to suggest owners are maybe not thinking their end goals build through properly or their expectations are not being met by the various outfits modifying these cars. I'd be trying to build the perfect fun car (for me) to keep forever The owner of the white PS 3.2 backdate for £189k for example also put it up for sale straight after it was built way back in 2011! Having said this every day people walk into a showroom buy a super SUV or Supercar and lose £50-100k the minute they walk out. Even done myself but I tend to keep the cars so any loss irrelevant. I'd be annoyed if I dropped £200k-£300k on a hot rod and or back date and I wasn't happy with it. To add insult to injury it then sits in the classifieds for the next 9 years unsold! I think the dream and expectation is the tricky bit. Many times I have coveted a car then driven it and lost the love entirely, a lot of the hot rods are built around opinions of someone else or a parts catalogue. Often leading to disappointment.

I really like the 996 CSR but I wouldn't buy it over a 996 GT3. That's not to say it isn't the sort of thing I'd foolishly build myself instead of buying a GT3! I've definitely done similar in the past :-/ anonymous said: [redacted] This has been my experience of modified cars for the last 20 years across Peugeots, BMWs and now Porsche. Some people just enjoy the process, others just rinse the credit card too hard and have to bail at the end to keep their heads above water!

Desert Dragon said: I like their PS Le Mans Classic more. Circa £250k. I wonder if PS sold all his originally planned nos of 10 allocations for Le Mans Classic? Quality certainly looks a notch above his previous creations. Very expensive to do a hot rod properly and even more so if air cooled. Thats why I find it surprising they come up for sale so soon after being built. Member on here selling a lovely blue hot rod 912 he's just dropped circa 220k in. Selling for approx 160k and never driven! Looks an amazing car. Cost price is probably somewhat accurate... Theres a couple of blokes from on here coming down to take a look this month I believe. I see many backdates and expensive hot rods where things have clearly been skimped on, and at that point I lose interest. For me I just wanted the best, price wasnt a factor - Elephant racing complete street resto suspension + oil cooling kit is 10k, new wiring loom installed is 5k, new CDI boxes fuse box etc from Classic retrofit ( johny) is 2-3k , interior is 10k, Engine is 50k, Gearbox rebuilt with all wevo mods slippy diff etc is 15k, braids, PMB SWB brakes , ++ it all adds up really quickly, a nice repainted SWB shell including work 50k,, Labour oh I dont know maybe 60-70k, probably forgotten a bunch of things, things add up really fast. What you have when you are done though, is a car where everything is new/refurbed - you probably got 10-15 years ahead of you with mainly oil changes filters and off you go - What you cannot backdate is lightness, my 912-6 is 980 Kiloes with half a tank of fuel - the 3.2 RSR MFI High butterflies engine delivers 262 BHP at 6500 RPM , can probably eek out another 5-10 BHP by reving it to 7000 but no need really. Great torque! I didnt want a peaky Le mans engine with zero power down low, so I chose the DC40 cams from Dougherty , basically S cams. much nicer road engine. Look a that torque curve, like Table Mountain! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXkMK7-CVSI Edited by Mintbird on Saturday 4th January 06:33 Edited by Mintbird on Saturday 4th January 06:35 Edited by Mintbird on Saturday 4th January 06:36 Edited by Mintbird on Saturday 4th January 06:38

anonymous said: [redacted] Mixture of very expensive parts and labour if you want to use the best engine building outfits for their "know how" or IP especially on an air-cooled. A Thomas Pink Singer 3.8/4.0 RS type engine costs circa £100,000 +. Fellow on here who sadly passed recently who I knew and he'd spent £100k + modifying his 911s mezger. Thought he was nuts at the time but I'm so glad he did enjoying his toys and life to the full...

Exotic Porsche engines have always been expensive. Customers have been sending Porsche turbos for example to outfits like 9ff and RS Tuning in Germany for circa 15-20 years spending approx 100k Euros just on an engine and they have a queue of racing clientele at RS Tuning. Air cooled just as expensive - Porsche factory air cooled in normally aspirated form wasn't more than 300bhp for their road cars in the 993 RS. Here's another air cooled hot rod peak power at circa 7800rpm which is too narrow power band for a road car IMO. Nevertheless you won't get change out of £500,000 and arguably a stock 993 RS a better road / track car at half the cost. Customers still buying them! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR_AtsS0nEQ

anonymous said: [redacted] No that is the total cost if you start from scratch - , from the purchase to a donor SC engine, to the full injection system , rebuild of the pump, high butterflies, pistons barrels cams etc - Keep in mind most of the MFI stuff isnt available from Porsche new so you are left with expensive specialists in order to source things.

Well that’s certainly a different world to throwing in a set of barrels and pistons in a cup car and getting another 75 competitive hours out of it.

anonymous said: [redacted] Mahle pistons and barrels motorsport stuff have tripled in the last 5-6 years, its 5k + vat - they charge because they can, a MFI pump in nice nick is 4-5k , Injection parts 2-3k , then you need to rebuild the pump which is 2-3k , High butterflies 5k - cams a grand at least, I do agree that prices seem to have gone nuts - but what can you do? you want a certain type of engine, its a matter of have or have not... I guess its supply and demand like everything else in life. Edited by Mintbird on Saturday 4th January 17:17

Here is a much better way to build a one off... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rSJLKN04tc4 Proper engineering and Porsche support, love it !

Adrian-9iafn said: Here is a much better way to build a one off... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rSJLKN04tc4 Proper engineering and Porsche support, love it ! That does sound like a cool car I really like the 996

Adrian-9iafn said: Here is a much better way to build a one off... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rSJLKN04tc4 Proper engineering and Porsche support, love it ! Lovely project and Fantastic car. I agree with the owner. As a true drivers car, the 996 GT3 is still the pinnacle. If I were building a 996 hot rod it would have a track bias - as all of my cars do. You couldn’t get anywhere near that from a stock 996.

Porsche911R said: Wishful thinking. Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 2nd January 08:43 You can put your hands over your ears all you want, but Brexit will define UK politics for at least the next ten years, and given that it has had, and will continue to have, a strong negative impact on our economy it is inextricably linked to the price people are willing to pay for luxury goods such as 911's.

I think if I were looking at buying or building a hot rod 996, is definitely be more interested in Richard’s take on it. That car looks very nice

Dammit said: Porsche911R said: Wishful thinking. Edited by Porsche911R on Thursday 2nd January 08:43 You can put your hands over your ears all you want, but Brexit will define UK politics for at least the next ten years, and given that it has had, and will continue to have, a strong negative impact on our economy it is inextricably linked to the price people are willing to pay for luxury goods such as 911's. Ignore. I've seen D's posts about the FTSE, Brexit everything. Day trading profits on the FTSE. Kiplings Mowgli just got back from the jungle! Made me chuckle!! Good luck to R!!!

anonymous said: [redacted] I had a big rebuild of a 2.7RS spec engine 10 years ago with quite a lot of parts, new B&P etc and a lot of machining for £12k. Same job in very recent years by the same person about £28k. That's quite an increase, but 10 years have passed. Bert

Air cooled parts have become quite a profit centre for Porsche of late. Found the bill for my pistons that I bought from the factory as part of the 993 3.8 engine build a few years ago. Matched weights etc.. God knows what they would cost now. It’s a real shame that this stuff and these cars are no longer accessible. The build costs are laughable these days

It's all nuts, my back to metal 3.8 G50 hot rod build was just on £48k all in including the original car. It would be double or triple that now. [quavering voice] those were the days Bert

The 996 Carrera is now where the 964 used to be pricing wise- before the cars, the parts and Labour prices all shot up. If you are going to hot-rod a car, for driving rather than resale, starting with one that is both cheap to buy and cheap to modify makes sense I submit.

Yep. I get your logic. I think that the difference is that with the air cooled cars even now you can build a decent hot rod for a lot less than half of the cost of an RS. Currently with water cooled cars, you can buy a GT3 for less money than the cost of a hot rod build which offers in performance terms far more than a air cooled RS would offer compared to a cooking version. I think until either 996 GT3’s increase substantially in value or air cooled RS’s fall substantially, the smart money would still be spent on an air cooled project. Added to that, there’s not a lot of difference between cooking air cooled and RS variant engines. Whereas overcoming the performance gains and durability of a 996 GT3 engine from a cooking 996 unit is a huge ask both in terms of cost and engineering.

^ absolutely agree with all of this. £35-40k would get you an amazing and reliable 996 (15k car, 15k engine / exhaust, 5k suspension, 2k interior). Of course, you'd struggle to sell it again for more than maybe £20k but total spend still £20k less than a GT3. 996.2 GT3 (complete with ducktail and street suspension!) would be my ultimate too. But i don't have £60k and also cannot justify the cost when my carerra owes me £15-16k Edited by skinny on Monday 6th January 15:28

Definately see where you are coming from. I think i'd still be inclined to start with a GT3 as its not massively more expensive and everything on it will be so much beffier in terms of engineering - so as you say, just change the spring/damper combination and maybe the final drive ratio. Throw in a ducktail if you dont want the carlos fandango look and thats a truly lovely thing. If you have real budget constraints though, a nice manual 996C2 is a lot of car for the money and can be made into something lovely for not a huge amount.

A ten grand C2 is close to disposable- it’d hurt, for sure, but putting it sideways into a telegraph pole is going to hurt the wallet a lot less than a sixty grand GT3. Now, of course, the ten grand C2 may have 5k or suspension, 3k of seats, and 20k of engine in it- but these can all be re-shelled, whereas a cat-c GT3 is going to be a huge loss. The C2 has the advantage here in that they stamped out 85,000 of them and its damn close to a GT3- if you start with a C4 and delete the front drive then you have the same shell, a C2 will be a little bendier but have a larger boot, but these are choices the potential hot-rodder can make when scanning eBay. A 15k Hartech 3.9 will be bullet proof on the road, stick the X51 piling kit on it and it’d be ready for track work. Of course you can fiddle with a GT3 but in a way that so much is already done is a negative- it’s the easy button, the shortcut. Where’s the fun in that?

Dammit said: A ten grand C2 is close to disposable- it’d hurt, for sure, but putting it sideways into a telegraph pole is going to hurt the wallet a lot less than a sixty grand GT3. Now, of course, the ten grand C2 may have 5k or suspension, 3k of seats, and 20k of engine in it- but these can all be re-shelled, whereas a cat-c GT3 is going to be a huge loss. The C2 has the advantage here in that they stamped out 85,000 of them and its damn close to a GT3- if you start with a C4 and delete the front drive then you have the same shell, a C2 will be a little bendier but have a larger boot, but these are choices the potential hot-rodder can make when scanning eBay. A 15k Hartech 3.9 will be bullet proof on the road, stick the X51 piling kit on it and it’d be ready for track work. Of course you can fiddle with a GT3 but in a way that so much is already done is a negative- it’s the easy button, the shortcut. Where’s the fun in that? How does all that modding play out when you have to explain to your insurer about it assuming it's not just a track hog? Most of us here are middle aged and I'm just interesting in the extent the insurers go at the modders now?

Slippydiff said: Desert Dragon said: https://www.williamscrawford.co.uk/listings/porsch... Hot rod based on a GT3. If Adrian selling should be a very good car - if looking for a 996 hot rod type this would be one hell of a weekend blast Rest assured, it’s a good ‘un. Did you ever get any performance stats for it i.e. 0-62, 0-100?

lemmingjames said: Did you ever get any performance stats for it i.e. 0-62, 0-100? 30-130 is a better stat for performance. 0 to anything just means grip and how good you are at launching your car at 6k revs !

lemmingjames said: Did you ever get any performance stats for it i.e. 0-62, 0-100? I find that stuff rather dull, if I’m honest. It’s great for bragging rights in the pub/at the golf course, but ultimately it’s how it feels when you’re driving it that matters (to me anyway) My seat dyno told me it’s performance was “more than adequate”...

For performance stats look at 997 GT3 RS 4.0. Similar power to weight I expect

So basically it goes like a stabbed rat !

Slippydiff said: I find that stuff rather dull, if I’m honest. It’s great for bragging rights in the pub/at the golf course, but ultimately it’s how it feels when you’re driving it that matters (to me anyway) My seat dyno told me it’s performance was “more than adequate”... Having a cup engined car (yes i know it had issues prior to your purchase), is a bragging right in itself Using the RS 4.0 (based on power to weight ratio), it would suggest its as quick as the 996 GT2

Slippydiff said: Desert Dragon said: https://www.williamscrawford.co.uk/listings/porsch... Hot rod based on a GT3. If Adrian selling should be a very good car - if looking for a 996 hot rod type this would be one hell of a weekend blast Rest assured, it’s a good ‘un. Out of interest if you don't mind me asking, is it running the cup ecu as well as I'd have thought the much higher idle and such would make it quite tricky to use on the road? P.S awesome project car there though.

I think this car deserves a discussion thread all of its own!

TDT said: I think this car deserves a discussion thread all of its own! Theres a massive thread on 911uk on it and slippys work he did to rectify issues he encountered

isaldiri said: Out of interest if you don't mind me asking, is it running the cup ecu as well as I'd have thought the much higher idle and such would make it quite tricky to use on the road? P.S awesome project car there though. The engine/car runs on the OE 996.1 GT3 Bosch Motronic ECU. A brand new factory 996.1 engine loom was purchased from the factory for the engine install. This new loom was then adapted to the Cup engine. Retaining the stock ECU was key as it meant the car's dashboard, central locking and security/immobiliser functions all work as intended. Added to which, it's got all the functionality you'll ever need (unlike Motec etc, whereby you have to pay to unlock some of the basic functions) The Bosch Motorsport ECU used on the Cup cars is locked/non-programmable to avoid tampering for obvious reasons.

lemmingjames said: TDT said: I think this car deserves a discussion thread all of its own! Theres a massive thread on 911uk on it and slippys work he did to rectify issues he encountered Linky?

TDT said: Linky? http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=135064&st... i thought it was longer than the pages it is, did you have another thread running somewhere slippy as im sure i read more about it?

lemmingjames said: TDT said: Linky? http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=135064&st... i thought it was longer than the pages it is, did you have another thread running somewhere slippy as im sure i read more about it? Awesome thanks, I did find some of the other threads that ultimately build to this one.

lemmingjames said: http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=135064&st... i thought it was longer than the pages it is, did you have another thread running somewhere slippy as im sure i read more about it? As TDT says, there's three in total. They're all linked

Slippydiff said: The engine/car runs on the OE 996.1 GT3 Bosch Motronic ECU. A brand new factory 996.1 engine loom was purchased from the factory for the engine install. This new loom was then adapted to the Cup engine. Retaining the stock ECU was key as it meant the car's dashboard, central locking and security/immobiliser functions all work as intended. Added to which, it's got all the functionality you'll ever need (unlike Motec etc, whereby you have to pay to unlock some of the basic functions) The Bosch Motorsport ECU used on the Cup cars is locked/non-programmable to avoid tampering for obvious reasons. Got you, just had a mosey through the thread linked above, amazing project you had done there. Glws and hope it goes to a good home.

Does anyone remember a wide arched 996.2 bodykit? I seem to remember there being one that kept the looks of the oem front bumper but just flared out at the arches and made it wider. I thought it was the RSR but alas that looks completely different to what i had in mind

Really interested in this thread and hope some of the members on here could impart some of their experiences and thoughts to help me out. I'm in the position to get into my first 911 after wanting one for years. I've learnt from some of the more interesting cars I've had that I would prefer a 911 that gives me a more analogue driving experience. It will be my daily drive and I have a little lad so back seats are needed too. I would like to do the odd track day, more to get a feel and enjoy its driving dynamics as opposed to chasing lap times though. I have come across RPMs CSRs which caught my interest and it appears that few member on here have had them too. I have also found that the 996 40th Anniversary Edition that came with the X51 pack, LSD and a few other upgrades. So the options I am considering with around £40k to spend would be; A) Get a £15k 996 C2 and spend on Hartech Engine rebuild to 3.9, some suspension and interior mods B) Start with a 40 Jahre Edition (£25-£30k) and spend on some suspension upgrades if required If the 40 Jahre mods were subtle/reversible, I'm thinking that the resale value may be stronger than a heavily modded 996 C2 in the future? Impossible to predict future market but due to the 40AE relative rareness, this may be the case. But then there is option C. By Jan/Feb next year, I could get to a budget of around £65k, which then opens up a GT3 as an option. I would have to add rear seats and dependent on the ride, may need to tweak suspension. So questions to the forum would be; - Is a GT3 suitable for a daily drive? My commute is only 3 miles - would short distances be OK for the Mezger? - If I decide to mod a 996 - would it be better to use the 40AE as a platform or use a cheaper base 996? Appreciate any feedback on above. Thanks in advance.

Life too short so buy now for sure but I don't think you lose by waiting as these old classics will carry on depreciating. The 40 years of 911 edition as like you say comes with all the goodies. I imagine with your budget you'll get a time warp museum 40th anniversary 911? In 12 months time maybe just px for GT3 after you've tried one if things go to plan? Its a lovely package. I remember seeing them at Porsche East London. They were not far off £80k new and all sold out like hot cakes! Forgot about that 996

I like the process of deciding on components and having my car somewhat individualised so I'd go the route of the 15k car plus Hartech, etc. Last year I bought a C4S with that in mind. I ended up having to spend more than i wanted just to get it right but this spring I'll be doing the fancy suspension, just cant decide what (was planning Ohlins but I want the car at stock height). fyi in my research it seems that RPM charge perhaps a premium for bits readily available from Design 911 (and others), just wait for one of the D911 sales and buy all the bits and take it somewhere with a decent tech to put it all on. Obviously the CSR bodykit maybe not

Onhlins can be any height you want- true coilover design, height is not dependent on the spring.

Im trying to find it on google but im failing, how much wider is a 996 RSR over a C2 996 or how wide is the 996 RSR?

There was a chap from the Isle of Wight back in the day who converted the body of his 996GT3 MK1 to a 996 RSR. It was speed yellow. Think his name was Richard Long. You may find images of the car on Google

You need to look for a gt3r or rs race cars,i can measure mine if you want,let me inow dimensions you require. Steve is right with the guy from isle of white,paragon done the conversion,big mag article also you should be able to find.

Yellow491 said: You need to look for a gt3r or rs race cars,i can measure mine if you want,let me inow dimensions you require. Steve is right with the guy from isle of white,paragon done the conversion,big mag article also you should be able to find. It was Nick D and Robert Gant's yellow GT3 that Richard bought and converted. Remember the day Nick picked it up and we drove his 73 RS, my 993RS and the GT3. We both would have chosen the 73RS out of the three.

Wasn’t it stolen and never recovered?

Yellow491 said: You need to look for a gt3r or rs race cars,i can measure mine if you want,let me inow dimensions you require. Steve is right with the guy from isle of white,paragon done the conversion,big mag article also you should be able to find @Steve - Thanks for the heads up, id seen some pictures of the yellow one on Google but never followed any links so will have a look. @ Yellow - im just wondering how wide the RSR is with the arch kit on. Im sure ive seen a wide arch .2 using the normal front bumper but cant seem to find anything now. If one was to fit the wide arch kit, what else would need to be done? Im guessing new wheels in a different width to bring them out to fill the arches or is oem road 'ok'? I know the side rads need to be relocated

lemmingjames said: @Steve - Thanks for the heads up, id seen some pictures of the yellow one on Google but never followed any links so will have a look. @ Yellow - im just wondering how wide the RSR is with the arch kit on. Im sure ive seen a wide arch .2 using the normal front bumper but cant seem to find anything now. If one was to fit the wide arch kit, what else would need to be done? Im guessing new wheels in a different width to bring them out to fill the arches or is oem road 'ok'? I know the side rads need to be relocated You’ll need some BBS E88 wheels or similar, with some chunky offsets and they’ll maybe need to be a bit wider, probably 12”. As Yellow will confirm, the rear inner arches are tubbed on the race cars as they run so low and utilise large diameter/tall aspect ratio rear tyres, there should be no need to do it on a road car conversion though.

wheel recommendations here: https://www.vaddesign.com/porsche-996-rsr-gt2r

roca1976 said: wheel recommendations here: https://www.vaddesign.com/porsche-996-rsr-gt2r I think I’d be more inclined to ask the question on Rennlist, then do the necessary due diligence in establishing the recommende widths and offsets.

lemmingjames said: Yellow491 said: You need to look for a gt3r or rs race cars,i can measure mine if you want,let me inow dimensions you require. Steve is right with the guy from isle of white,paragon done the conversion,big mag article also you should be able to find @Steve - Thanks for the heads up, id seen some pictures of the yellow one on Google but never followed any links so will have a look. @ Yellow - im just wondering how wide the RSR is with the arch kit on. Im sure ive seen a wide arch .2 using the normal front bumper but cant seem to find anything now. If one was to fit the wide arch kit, what else would need to be done? Im guessing new wheels in a different width to bring them out to fill the arches or is oem road 'ok'? I know the side rads need to be relocated Hi,the gt3r and rs racers are about 50mm per side wider at the rear,the front wings look kind of standard ,but actually are wider with a flare built in,the later model gt3rs 2002and 3 had a wider front wing again for a inch wider wheel and offset etc,the 2004 rsr had wider arches again. You can buy the front wings in carbon and rear arches to match. If you need accurate measurements let me know,our i can dig the factory dimensions out,they are deceivingly wider than you think ,mine has 11inch front wheels and 12 rear.

Hi Yellow, Sorry to be a pain but if you could find out the actual dimensions, it would be much appreciated but there is no rush! is the .2 R/RSR that much wider than the .1?

lemmingjames said: Hi Yellow, Sorry to be a pain but if you could find out the actual dimensions, it would be much appreciated but there is no rush! is the .2 R/RSR that much wider than the .1? Hi sorry for slow reply,measured my car for you. Rear wheel base to outside of tyres is 188cm,front is 182cm.

Yellow491 said: Hi sorry for slow reply,measured my car for you. Rear wheel base to outside of tyres is 188cm,front is 182cm. Hi Yellow, No worries in the slow reply, so a 'standard on is around 1770, so an extra 2" either side at the rear. Which i guess i should have worked out by the correct rims being 13" wide as opposed to mine at 11. If anyone is looking for the kit with i think centre lock wheels - some dude is selling one for a .1 in the 996 Modifications page on FB but no price given. As this thread is talking about making a hot rod, one way or another but how much would it cost to make a RSR road rep. Kit is at X Paint is at Y What are the other extra costs; 11" Front 13" Rear? Relocate the rads - can existing be used and new pipe and bracketry or?

Cheib said: I really don’t understand why you would have one over a GT3 either....and they have four CSR’s for sale at the moment so maybe the owners don’t fall in love with them either. Funnily enough this popped up on my YouTube feed the other day... https://youtu.be/w7Wqe8wLtbI Just watched this Vid. ... £80K + the ‘Doner’ car ... jeeze Very Bad investment in my eyes compared to a GT3. & still got the worry of that engine.

Slippydiff said: The V3 KW’s are a step up from tired OE Bilsteins, albeit not a quantum one (I ran Manthey KW’s on a Manthey modified Mk 1 996 GT3) I’d put them in the same league as PSS9/10 Bilsteins. A bit late to the conversation, but my experience is a little different. I ran a 996.2 GT3 in club racing on slicks. As the competition got steadily more serious, the car morphed until eventually it was near-as-dammit a Cup car by the end, and then I jumped into a 996 Cup the season after so that gave me a direct comparison. The OE Bilsteins were laughable on slicks (we were not serious about retaining them, we just wanted to feel the car lurch around for comedic effect). We experimented with PSS (can't remember if they were 9s or 10s) and they were similarly rubbish. Manthey KWs turned out to be surprisingly good on slicks and I wanted to retain some road manners so decided to stick with those for 3 seasons. When I eventually drove a Cup car the season after (which I think was on Sachs), with a minor weight advantage, I think we were only a couple of seconds a lap quicker than the road car. This is all from memory and a long time ago, so I might be a bit out on the numbers but certainly I felt that the Manthey KWs punched well above their weight and a league ahead of the PSS9/10.

At the moment, the best value damper that KW offer is the club sport range as it shares the same valving technology as their - more expensive - race range. It’s a decent damper at a very decent price point. I have driven a lot of GT3’s with V3 damping and found that the fronts needed running at maximum adjustment to create a balance in the chassis when driving correctly on a trail. To qualify that, Most cars were on a Manthey set up which reduces rear grip to promote turn in. I suspect that with a more neutral set up, the damper may perform differently.

I'm enjoying this thread. The best of both might be to put a 3.6 996 mk1 metzger into a C2 chassis? You can get them for about 10-15k GBP I believe. Y

I'd love to know where! That's at least 40 grands worth of engine.

Here https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/orig-PORSCHE-911-996-GT...

Wow!

, my 996 gt3 replica

There's been pretty hefty price drop on Ashgood's two GT3's since this thread was started. This one was £60k, then £59k and now £55k. https://www.ashgood.co.uk/vehicle-details/Used-Por...

Given the content of Frost’s speech last night I’d hang on until August if I were buying, and I’d sell now if I was thinking about moving a car on.

Dammit said: Given the content of Frost’s speech last night I’d hang on until August if I were buying, and I’d sell now if I was thinking about moving a car on. Yes, it's an interesting year ahead and I'm definitely not prepared to put any decent money into any used car ATM.

Dammit said: Given the content of Frost’s speech last night I’d hang on until August if I were buying, and I’d sell now if I was thinking about moving a car on. Hi, do you mind me asking why?

IMI A said: Dammit said: Given the content of Frost’s speech last night I’d hang on until August if I were buying, and I’d sell now if I was thinking about moving a car on. Hi, do you mind me asking why? I think the real poo is about to hit the fan later this year....Xmas 2919 was just a taster

Just found this while perusing 27 grand 996 C2 with GT3 kit and recently painted Purple https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/204128921963

Simply not worth £80k, end of, and I would be surprised if it cost anywhere near £100k to build! There are a few 996 hot rod builds on 911UK, below is of a similar spec but with more extensive engine work, I dont think its worth £80k!! http://911uk.com/viewtopic.php?t=134930&postda... Edited by Applause on Friday 23 December 22:00