Minty (and a man with impeccable taste) - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Spoiler : A real Porsche enthusiast talking cars, sorry to disappoint there's no discussion whatsoever about contrast stitching or resale values to be found here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TclUfW4MYTI And with regards to "getting" the 964 RS. Here's what they're all about distilled into a few words : 55 times better than a Boxster ? That depends on the criteria you're judging them by. They're 55 times more rare, of that I'm certain. And that, I suspect, counts for a lot. I'd say they're 55 times more engaging, tactile and "special" to drive than any Boxster too. 0-60 ? Quite frankly if that's your benchmark for what makes a car great (or not great) you most likely won't get the RS. Overly stiff ride ? Grow a f*cking pair (it's an urban myth, so get one with decent, modern tyres (ie not ten year old Michelin MXX's) fresh dampers, sensible geo settings and ride heights, and you'll find them an absolute blast for A & B road hooning. Build a rep on the cheap ? yep, course it can be done, but it's the little things that make these cars more than the sum of their parts. Take the ali bonnet for example, lift it up ('cause there's no gas struts to assist you) prop it up using the aluminium strut (who's end goes into a specially formed nut that doubles up as the securing nut for the strut top mount). Pull on the inner door latch release pulls (formed from doubled up loops of seat belt material) feel the way they release the door latches so mechanically (then try the pastiche of the same idea on the Cayman R and feel how, as a sop to the RS, they've tried to incorporate the same idea into a door trim that wasn't designed for it (neither was the release mechanism) and feel how utterly sh*t it feels in it's action when compared to the original. It's what happens when the marketing men decree what goes into a car, rather than letting an engineer decide. Put the dainty key into the ignition switch and turn it against the perfectly weighted spring loading of the switch. Just as your wrist starts to run out of articulation, the starter kicks in and the flat six bursts into life. If your foot isn't on the clutch, you'll hear the sound of the gears in the transmission rattling away as the lack of a dual mass flywheel (and the harmonic damping it usually provides) allows the gears to chatter excitedly within their casing. Sit there and wait for some heat to percolate through the flat six, and soon after you'll be able to hear the thick, glutinous oil coursing through the pipes running the length of the car as the precious life blood is pumped towards the thermostat, only to be sent back to be warmed further without troubling the car's oil cooler. Press down the floor hinged clutch pedal with it's initially awkward over-centre action, then gently palm the slightly baulky gearlever into first. Press the accelerator expecting the tardy, nee lazy, damped response most modern cars provide, and find this car's powerplant reacts instantaneously and you've just encouraged the rev counter around to 3000rpm, and not the 1200rpm you'd intended. Try again, but being too timid, you stall it ....... Another attempt, this time you succeed as the car's low down torque aids your frankly pathetic attempts to master the over-centre clutch, the hair trigger throttle response and the cold, recalcitrant gearbox. Out on the open road, the oil temperature gauge shows signs of life, the gearbox becomes less baulky and the steering starts to lighten with speed. Twenty minutes in and the engine is now nicely warmed through. Let the fun commence ...... From your gentle fifth gear cruise, change down into third and slowly depress the long travel, floor hinged throttle pedal all the way to it's stop. The induction noise hardens and increases in volume, the drivetrain grumbles as you accelerate through the rev range and the lack of dual mass flywheel creates harsh resonances that sound more akin to a coffee grinder. But keep accelerating and they'll disappear to leave just the mechanical sound of the flat six along with it's induction noise and the cooling fan shifting vast quantities of soothing, cool air over the barrels and cylinder heads buried within the bowels of that nondescript looking engine compartment. At 6,800 rpm in third the game's all over and its time to start the process all over again in fourth. A quick, gentle lift of the throttle, along with a short, quick prod of the clutch, allows you to thread the perfectly weighted, short(ish) throw, gear lever through the gate. A corner approaches, so you lift off the throttle and change down, you get back on the throttle and turn the steeringwheel, initially the helm feels stodgy, heavy and unresponsive, you curse the lack of power steering (LHD cars only) as the nose seems unwilling to cooperate with your request for a change in direction. But wait, the wheel in front of you isn't the sole method of altering the car's trajectory, next time try using the brakes to keep the weight over the front wheels whilst you turn them, then carefully chose the moment to get back on the throttle (hard) to utilise both the grunt of that flat six AND the traction afforded as a result of its position over the rear wheels. Suddenly 260hp seems more than enough to make indecently rapid progress, but more than that, you're a simply massive part of the process of going fast, you have to be, because without your guiding hand, your perfect timing, your ability to deftly come off the brakes and seamlessly reapply the throttle, this car doesn't steer, it needs, no relies, on you to manage it's imperfect weight distribution. It's hot sweaty work in the summer, no aircon along with no insulation means that a large part of the heat generated by that 3.6 litre engine finds it's way into the cabin. Soon your back will be wringing wet and that "moist" feeling is only exacerbated by the leather facings on some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car. Supportive enough to enable you to retain control without having to hang onto the steeringwheel, but not so all enveloping as modern race seats. On the right roads, driving experiences don't come much better, or indeed more intense. And when you've had your "hit" of the RS, you won't feel the need to race home too, instead you'll be happy to potter at 6/10's, watching as other far more powerful cars overtake you, safe in the knowledge that despite what the manufacturers of their cars may tell them, their owners will have little or no idea what tactility, engagement and fun behind the wheel really are. Finally you'll arrive home, hot, sweaty and possibly slightly deaf..... You'll undo your seatbelt, remove the keys from the ignition, wind your window up and step out.When you slam the door shut, two things will stand out : Firstly the delightful noise the door makes when it closes. Partly a function of it's bank vault build quality, and partly the fact that it's unencumbered by door pockets, airbags, central locking motors, electric windows or their switchgear. And the second thing that will stand out when you slam the door shut ? A light, gentle, barely discernible tinkling noise...... wink Those that have owned and driven these wonderful cars will most likely know what this "tinkling" noise is, whilst those that think they're an overpriced, underperforming, anachronism, probably won't. But neither will they care........ And here's the very car that I wrote those words about all those years ago (it was my first Porsche, bought for the princely sum of £23,500 back in 2001) : https://www.sports-purpose.com/cars-for-sale/1991-... And here's the car at a Prodrive arranged trackday at their test track at Fenn End just outside Warwick back in 2001 : "Some of the most perfectly formed bucket seats ever to grace a car ..."

Truly a lovely thing and amazing how subtle they look compared to their modern day equivalent. Once I've found a buyer for every kidney I can find (not sure how my wife and kids will feel about this "donation"), I'll be buying one!

Nice write up for a cool bit of retro and even though I prefer the front engined stuff of old I do appreciate these. For the completely ignorant, what was the tinkling?

Stunning looking car especially in that colour. Are you selling or have you already sold it? What's with the 55 times better than a Boxster? Certainly more expensive. At £189k it's moved on since you bought it for £23.5k, like all aircooled. Shame as it was great when real enthusiasts could get into great cars and drive them without paying over the odds!

Oilchange said: Nice write up for a cool bit of retro and even though I prefer the front engined stuff of old I do appreciate these. For the completely ignorant, what was the tinkling? The heating system has some aluminium flaps in the heater tubes which act as one way valves, when you slam the door and increase the pressure inside the car, the pressure wave opens the flaps, and it it them you can hear gently tinkling I've no doubt the average modern Porsche owner would complain about such "character" to their dealer, and shortly after, the factory would issue a recall that would rectify the "fault"

g7jhp said: Stunning looking car especially in that colour. Are you selling or have you already sold it? What's with the 55 times better than a Boxster? Certainly more expensive. At £189k it's moved on since you bought it for £23.5k, like all aircooled. Shame as it was great when real enthusiasts could get into great cars and drive them without paying over the odds! I sold it back in 2002 or 3. I subsequently went on to own a Guards red example which I sold to friend (he still owns it) a Rubystone example (now owned by PH'er "Rathur") and Ferrari yellow example which ended up going back to the Fatherland. The "55 times better than a Boxster" comment was in the context of a thread in General Gassing, prompted by a PH feature on a 964 RS that had just sold at auction (back in 2014) for £220K ...

What makes them really fab ? They look so unassuming with the retracting wing and they are so bijou ! (tiny -- a piece of jewellery)) Very happy times !! Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 1st May 20:57

Sorry Slippy ... you forgot a couple of things ... As the engine warms watch the oil temperature dip as the oil cooler valve opens ... time to press on ! And, turn-in ... straighten ... turn-in ... must remember to introduce the car to the corner !! As for the clicking ... I thought that was the tinware starting to cool down If course Porsche decided that the UK RHD market needed power steering !!! ... and that they would sell 100 ... and around 30 had to be re-routed to other RHD markets. The motoring press complained how irresponsible it was for Porsche to sell a car where you couldn't see the speedo above the legal limit ... the joys of the offset seating position. And you are completely right ... many said that on an uneven road the unruly 964RS was born to launch the unwary into the scenery ... fresh suspension solves most of this but Cup front dampers were three times the price of the standard ones and were MUCH better for the road. Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 1st May 21:07

The best of times ... you know who you are Edited by ChrisW. on Saturday 1st May 21:07

Oh yes. Love mine. So subtle yet can keep up on track with cars that thrash it on paper. This is one car that they'll have to prize the keys out my cold dead hands before I sell it.

Sorry, I've never felt the love for the 911 in any flavour, no idea why, but they just never floated my boat.

MKnight702 said: Sorry, I've never felt the love for the 911 in any flavour, no idea why, but they just never floated my boat. What a weird thing to post.

Each to their own ... but probably better to spend your time where it can be appreciated ?

Slippy are you trying to turn a 64 into a cult car by any chance I had reading/factory demo car for a day when they came out,gave the keys back and said it was F awefull on the road,fun on track but ugly with those big nasty plastic bumpers,so they made me a better car,the 993rs;)

Yellow491 said: Slippy are you trying to turn a 64 into a cult car by any chance I had reading/factory demo car for a day when they came out,gave the keys back and said it was F awefull on the road,fun on track but ugly with those big nasty plastic bumpers,so they made me a better car,the 993rs;) Yeh, cos the 993 has such beautiful, dainty plastic bumpers doesn't it ... How's your "floating" door check straps, your rotting window apertures, your tin worm infested rear inner flitches, your warped plastic valve covers, your chaffed through engine looms and your "improved" engines doing their best to impersonate the Amoco Cadiz ? The '64 RS already IS a cult car Evening Paul, hope you're well ?

Love that Le Mans start re-creation photo a few posts above. Top work!

Unfortunately the photographer was last in the car !

How's your "floating" door check straps, your rotting window apertures, your tin worm infested rear inner flitches, your warped plastic valve covers, your chaffed through engine looms and your "improved" engines doing their best to impersonate the Amoco Cadiz ? Bit harsh Slippy Has anyone mentioned the oil slick found under a 64 after it had been resting for a while

Redarress said: How's your "floating" door check straps, your rotting window apertures, your tin worm infested rear inner flitches, your warped plastic valve covers, your chaffed through engine looms and your "improved" engines doing their best to impersonate the Amoco Cadiz ? Bit harsh Slippy Has anyone mentioned the oil slick found under a 64 after it had been resting for a while Hi Sam, hope you're well ? Harsh ? Maybe ....... but fair ... The cognoscenti will tell you the engine under trays fitted to the 964 were there to keep noise levels down to meet noise regs for the Swiss market. What they were REALLY fitted for was to catch the oil and stop it dripping on your drive/garage floor Actually, the latter's just not true, I've run four of them, and not one of them dripped a drop of oil (but maybe the RS motors were even more blueprinted than the factory let on) ... ?

Evening Henry! Enjoyable video that, thanks for posting. Your first RS looks a cracker. I know Midnight is a bit understated for some but I think it suits the 964/993 gens really well. One of my favourites. I guess you will always have fond memories of your first Porsche but which of the 4 would you say was the best car? For those that actually drive these cars they are well suited for fast road driving due to their understated look and diminutive size. I couldn't say the same for a modern RS nor my Guards 991.2 GT3

There's a pre '98 track day coming up at Castle Combe run by PCGB. Wonder if we'll see any RS there - or are they too precious now?

Still remember a Porsche track day 2004 ish that had loads of 964 RS's out on track. Doubt we will see the like of that again given their value now though! TX.

anonymous-user said: Oh yes. Love mine. So subtle yet can keep up on track with cars that thrash it on paper. This is one car that they'll have to prize the keys out my cold dead hands before I sell it. That’s my old car! Sold it about 20 years ago, glad you’re enjoying it. On its winter wheels, the day I sold it And on its original Mag cups.

And being thrashed around Goodwood back in 2001

Gunk said: That’s my old car! Sold it about 20 years ago, glad you’re enjoying it. On its winter wheels, the day I sold it And on its original Mag cups. Featured in several 911 & Porsche World running reports too

Slippydiff said: Gunk said: That’s my old car! Sold it about 20 years ago, glad you’re enjoying it. On its winter wheels, the day I sold it And on its original Mag cups. Featured in several 911 & Porsche World running reports too It was, and my Carrera 3.0 was featured before that. It was a very enjoyable 10 years of air cooled 911 ownership, back in a time when they were affordable cars owned by enthusiasts rather than speculators.

It is sad the way the RS market has gone but someone like Colin at 9m can easily build you another one out of a 964 C2 or C4 and probably better than a factory 964 RS tbh

Slippydiff said: Gunk said: Slippydiff said: Gunk said: That’s my old car! Sold it about 20 years ago, glad you’re enjoying it. On its winter wheels, the day I sold it And on its original Mag cups. Featured in several 911 & Porsche World running reports too It was, and my Carrera 3.0 was featured before that. It was a very enjoyable 10 years of air cooled 911 ownership, back in a time when they were affordable cars owned by enthusiasts rather than speculators. So true, it’s a very different owner profile/demographic to 20 years ago, and not the better ... IIRC you kept the car on the street due to a lack of off-steeet parking ? Did you sell it to Dom Colbeck ? Who subsequently went “off-roading” in it ? "Better" to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all.....

Gunk said: Slippydiff said: Gunk said: That’s my old car! Sold it about 20 years ago, glad you’re enjoying it. On its winter wheels, the day I sold it And on its original Mag cups. Featured in several 911 & Porsche World running reports too It was, and my Carrera 3.0 was featured before that. It was a very enjoyable 10 years of air cooled 911 ownership, back in a time when they were affordable cars owned by enthusiasts rather than speculators. So true, it’s a very different owner profile/demographic to 20 years ago, and unfortunately not for the better in many ways... IIRC you kept the car on the street due to a lack of off-steeet parking ? Did you sell it to Dom Colbeck ? Who subsequently went “off-roading” in it ? Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 22 October 11:20

Slippydiff said: So true, it’s a very different owner profile/demographic to 20 years ago, and unfortunately not for the better in many ways... IIRC you kept the car on the street due to a lack of off-steeet parking ? Did you sell it to Dom Colbeck ? Who subsequently went “off-roading” in it ? Edited by Slippydiff on Saturday 22 October 11:20 Yes I did sell it to Dom, really nice genuine enthusiast, I’m sure he had a Lotus Carlton. And yes it lived on the street!

Gunk said: Yes I did sell it to Dom, really nice genuine enthusiast, I’m sure he had a Lotus Carlton. And yes it lived on the street! I believe he did. A thoroughly nice chap He went off-roading in the RS avoiding a badger. The current owner posts on here occasionally. The car now has a freshly built 3.8 litre motor too

This is the reason why people had so much fun in these cars .... both ads in the same magazine ... Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 23 October 09:45

Is that actually an RSR in the first advert or is it a misprint?

smithyithy said: Is that actually an RSR in the first advert or is it a misprint? Looks like a clubsport

Both of those are the Clubsport variant / NGT variant of which there were around 290 manufactured. The RSR was a wide bodied 3.8 litre car built in '93 / '94 looking like this: Porsche were very slow to build in time for the '93 German ADAC-GT series ... only four cars were ready for the first race, most being built in the second half of '93 and '94. Due to supply issues this particular car was built from parts supplied by Porsche directly to Mamerow, to be raced by Peter Mamerow in the series, hence it was one of the four that raced from the start with number 30. There was also a road going series ... around 50 cars of each were built and there is a very interesting book rather like the 2.7RS book detailing the build of each car ... other than the one built by Mamerow for Peter Mamerow which has a Mamerow vin number. Christian Mamerow (Peter's son) became an Audi works driver, the car has an interesting history since Porsche didn't want the car built by Mamerow to beat the cars built by Porsche, hence at the time they would not supply the bespoke RSR rear spoiler ... since fitted of course ! Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 23 October 14:56

Back in 2001 I looked at one of the handful of RHD RS routings, Autofarm were selling it for around £30,000 Regular seats and power steering, it was really nice to drive.

Yes I had a friend with a very nice Touring ... only 7 RHD cars ? My concern was that a lot of the weight removed had been put back in ... but then, I did 20,000Km in a Maritime Blue NGT ...

ChrisW. said: Yes I had a friend with a very nice Touring ... only 7 RHD cars ? My concern was that a lot of the weight removed had been put back in ... but then, I did 20,000Km in a Maritime Blue NGT ... This may have been the very car I drove https://ferdinandmagazine.com/rhd-porsche-964rs-to...

A good £30k's worth

It's been quite a journey ... My Maritime NGT was the first 964RS NGT that Porsche didn't sell ... they gave it away to Ulrich Richter to tempt him back to racing for Porsche ... vin ended 011 ... Reputedly the first 10 chassis numbers were prototypes ... I also owned a prototype RHD 993RS with vin ending 009 ... so it must be true The Fixse forged alloys were rather splendid (fitted whilst the Speediness were refurbished) .... Edited by ChrisW. on Sunday 23 October 21:25

ChrisW. said: This is the reason why people had so much fun in these cars .... both ads in the same magazine ... Hahaha, I bought the Midnight blue car in the advert Chris. It was my first Porsche Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 23 October 21:46

Fikse wheels are still going, they manufacture some stunning high quality wheels.