A question about buying 10+ year old Porsches - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

I don’t get it. I’ve been desperate to buy a Porsche for many many years but whenever I get an opportunity to get one I bottle it. What with bore score, IMS, RMS on the 996/997.1 (and 986/987) versions, it seems to me that buying one of these cars is a fools paradise. Lately I’ve been looking at Cayman R/987 Spyder or 996/997 Turbo, but then I looked at maintenance of these cars for the home mechanic. What a PITA, from accessing engines in the mid engined models to trying to change spark plugs in the turbo versions. I even saw a video where the engine had to be removed to access coolant pipes. Why is everything so difficult to access on these cars? I watched a YT vid the other day where a chap spent $20k fixing a 2 owner 74k mile 964 C2 over in America, plus the purchase of the car which had gone through a $900 PPI. My question to you guys is, should one be buying a newer version of these cars over the money pit versions and are there ways of working on the cars without forking out shedloads?

You forgot the front AC condensers and pipes that rot under the drivers cill . You best bet for the least worst , or most DIY er able , = least cost going Fwds and having capitol reserves is go for a Boxster or Cayman 987.2 , the one with the 2.9 so a base that comes with a 9A1 closed deck engine . 09-12 yrs No IMS No bore scoring tendency. No RMS issues Port injection not valve fouling DI Get a manual too to dodge any PDK “known unknowns “and expensive lub changes If it’s any consolation the hydraulic PAS does give better feel than newer electric , they a physically smaller than 981 / 718s and obviously the mid engine handing balance over a 911 goes without saying . I am an experienced Porsche guy having had 924 , 911 C2 , 968Club sport , Cayenne,Current Macan SD .Additionally as 2nd / 3rd a Testarossa , 360 M F1 and GT4 .Bentley GT You won’t be disappointed with the raw feel , sound and turn in of the 987.2 . Edited by Fiammetta on Thursday 13th October 09:13

I bought a ten year old 996 carrera 12 years ago. I was worried about bore score etc. Over a decade later I still have the car and still love driving it, it has regular maintenance of things like brakes, suspension a/c condensers (none of that cheap) but has held its value so all in all it was a great purchase. Glad I bought it and didn't back out due to worries about mechanical failures.

maz8062 said: My question to you guys is, should one be buying a newer version of these cars over the money pit versions and are there ways of working on the cars without forking out shedloads? I don't want to sound obnoxious, but seems to me that Porsche ownership may not be for you. They're expensive, yes, there is no cheap way. Saying that, when you compare with other performance cars, BMW M, AMG, Ferrari, Maserati... they're ballpark the same, if not cheaper in some cases. Either you REALLY want it, or find reasons not to buy one! I did this back in 2010 and bought a Honda S2000. Two years later got my 997 and haven't looked back since.

Scrump said: I bought a ten year old 996 carrera 12 years ago. I was worried about bore score etc. Over a decade later I still have the car and still love driving it, it has regular maintenance of things like brakes, suspension a/c condensers (none of that cheap) but has held its value so all in all it was a great purchase. Glad I bought it and didn't back out due to worries about mechanical failures. I’ve a friend just selling his 20 yr old 996 and the analogy I use with people is that it was a £60k+ car when new and hence even though it might cost £20k now, it still has the servicing habits of a £60k car albeit there are plenty of specialists who can maintain at a much more affordable cost than a main dealer often. My friend was unlucky in that his car needed a full engine rebuild (still quite rare given the number sold & his was an unusual fault) but for whoever buys it, they’ll only pay a few £k more than a car without a rebuilt engine & yet his bill from Hartech was much greater and they’ll have the peace of mind it’s as good as it’s going to be for it’s age. OP, even though the service intervals can be 2 yrs on the new Porsches, you can find enthusiasts getting an interim service annually just for peace of mind and low miles isn’t necessarily a positive as the cars suspension and various pipes can deteriorate ironically from lack of use! If you find a true enthusiast owned car that’s been well looked after, it’ll be a great buy - if you find a car that’s been passed around and they’ve saved on things like decent tyres, it’s likely they’ve tried to run it on a low budget which isn’t good.

Fiammetta said: You forgot the front AC condensers and pipes that rot under the drivers cill . You best bet for the least worst , or most DIY er able , = least cost going Fwds and having capitol reserves is go for a Boxster or Cayman 987.2 , the one with the 2.9 so a base that comes with a 9A1 closed deck engine . 09-12 yrs No IMS No bore scoring tendency. No RMS issues Port injection not valve fouling DI Get a manual too to dodge any PDK “known unknowns “and expensive lub changes If it’s any consolation the hydraulic PAS does give better feel than newer electric , they a physically smaller than 981 / 718s and obviously the mid engine handing balance over a 911 goes without saying . I am an experienced Porsche guy having had 924 , 911 C2 , 968Club sport , Cayenne,Current Macan SD .Additionally as 2nd / 3rd a Testarossa , 360 M F1 and GT4 .Bentley GT You won’t be disappointed with the raw feel , sound and turn in of the 987.2 . PH thread rapidly descends into farce... With all due respect, the cars from Stuttgart’s stable you’ve listed don’t mark you out as an “experienced Porsche guy”, more of a “habitual Porsche owner”, and there is a subtle difference. A 987.2 is good car, but a great Porsche ? That depends on what you want from a sports car. If you want something that handles impeccably, is relatively low maintenance, but requires little in the way of skill/nous to drive quickly, it’ll most likely tick your boxes. But if you want something that handles with less aplomb, provides more of a driving challenge and requires some thought to pedal quickly down your favourite A or B road, AND will reward you in a way NO Cayman will, then a 996 would be a better choice. Of course, the 996 may/will present you with higher maintenance bills, but as others have said, they’re commensurate with what the car cost originally. But bought sensibly, ie off an enthusiast owner and with the protection of a good pre-purchase inspection, there’s no reason why the right car, with proper maintenance, won’t provide you with many miles and years of engaging ownership. Retires to a safe distance having lit blue touch paper ...

Slippydiff said: Fiammetta said: You forgot the front AC condensers and pipes that rot under the drivers cill . You best bet for the least worst , or most DIY er able , = least cost going Fwds and having capitol reserves is go for a Boxster or Cayman 987.2 , the one with the 2.9 so a base that comes with a 9A1 closed deck engine . 09-12 yrs No IMS No bore scoring tendency. No RMS issues Port injection not valve fouling DI Get a manual too to dodge any PDK “known unknowns “and expensive lub changes If it’s any consolation the hydraulic PAS does give better feel than newer electric , they a physically smaller than 981 / 718s and obviously the mid engine handing balance over a 911 goes without saying . I am an experienced Porsche guy having had 924 , 911 C2 , 968Club sport , Cayenne,Current Macan SD .Additionally as 2nd / 3rd a Testarossa , 360 M F1 and GT4 .Bentley GT You won’t be disappointed with the raw feel , sound and turn in of the 987.2 . PH thread rapidly descends into farce... With all due respect, the cars from Stuttgart’s stable you’ve listed don’t mark you out as an “experienced Porsche guy”, more of a “habitual Porsche owner”, and there is a subtle difference. A 987.2 is good car, but a great Porsche ? That depends on what you want from a sports car. If you want something that handles impeccably, is relatively low maintenance, but requires little in the way of skill/nous to drive quickly, it’ll most likely tick your boxes. But if you want something that handles with less aplomb, provides more of a driving challenge and requires some thought to pedal quickly down your favourite A or B road, AND will reward you in a way NO Cayman will, then a 996 would be a better choice. Of course, the 996 may/will present you with higher maintenance bills, but as others have said, they’re commensurate with what the car cost originally. But bought sensibly, ie off an enthusiast owner and with the protection of a good pre-purchase inspection, there’s no reason why the right car, with proper maintenance, won’t provide you with many miles and years of engaging ownership. Retires to a safe distance having lit blue touch paper ... Maybe it's just time to retire? ;-)

10 year old expensive specialist sports car needs maintenance shocker.

I thought for a second there OP wanted to buy 11 or more one year old Porsches.

Slippydiff said: Fiammetta said: You forgot the front AC condensers and pipes that rot under the drivers cill . You best bet for the least worst , or most DIY er able , = least cost going Fwds and having capitol reserves is go for a Boxster or Cayman 987.2 , the one with the 2.9 so a base that comes with a 9A1 closed deck engine . 09-12 yrs No IMS No bore scoring tendency. No RMS issues Port injection not valve fouling DI Get a manual too to dodge any PDK “known unknowns “and expensive lub changes If it’s any consolation the hydraulic PAS does give better feel than newer electric , they a physically smaller than 981 / 718s and obviously the mid engine handing balance over a 911 goes without saying . I am an experienced Porsche guy having had 924 , 911 C2 , 968Club sport , Cayenne,Current Macan SD .Additionally as 2nd / 3rd a Testarossa , 360 M F1 and GT4 .Bentley GT You won’t be disappointed with the raw feel , sound and turn in of the 987.2 . PH thread rapidly descends into farce... With all due respect, the cars from Stuttgart’s stable you’ve listed don’t mark you out as an “experienced Porsche guy”, more of a “habitual Porsche owner”, and there is a subtle difference. A 987.2 is good car, but a great Porsche ? That depends on what you want from a sports car. If you want something that handles impeccably, is relatively low maintenance, but requires little in the way of skill/nous to drive quickly, it’ll most likely tick your boxes. But if you want something that handles with less aplomb, provides more of a driving challenge and requires some thought to pedal quickly down your favourite A or B road, AND will reward you in a way NO Cayman will, then a 996 would be a better choice. Of course, the 996 may/will present you with higher maintenance bills, but as others have said, they’re commensurate with what the car cost originally. But bought sensibly, ie off an enthusiast owner and with the protection of a good pre-purchase inspection, there’s no reason why the right car, with proper maintenance, won’t provide you with many miles and years of engaging ownership. Retires to a safe distance having lit blue touch paper ... Try answer the OP s Question. For the avoidance of doubt here it is again …… “ My question to you guys is, should one be buying a newer version of these cars over the money pit versions and are there ways of working on the cars without forking out shedloads?” Where did “ Great Porsche “ enter into the OPs equation? Agree two peddling a Testarossa or flicking a 360 M paddle or getting / holding a 968CS sideways is for some enjoyable.But unless I am mistaken he’s not asking that kinda stuff . Sleep tight with your IMS , RMS , bore scoring worries and Ford Focus esq interior .Glad you like the 996 . Edited by Fiammetta on Thursday 13th October 17:50 Edited by Fiammetta on Thursday 13th October 17:51 Edited by Fiammetta on Thursday 13th October 17:53

One of the OPs questions was around ease of spannering. Unless it's a keep for life car, you are actively reducing the resale value by DIY. Feel free to do your own thing, but buyers generally want to see specialist invoices for service and maintenance - OPC on an older car is not necessary (welcome, obviously, but not necessary).

randlemarcus said: One of the OPs questions was around ease of spannering. Unless it's a keep for life car, you are actively reducing the resale value by DIY. Feel free to do your own thing, but buyers generally want to see specialist invoices for service and maintenance - OPC on an older car is not necessary (welcome, obviously, but not necessary). This is the big thing for me; doing some of the work on the car myself like oil changes, basic stuff, but it seems to be very complicated access wise. For example, for some of the 911 models, one has to take the rear bumper off to replace the spark plugs, coil packs etc. it seems overly complicated. I guess for me, all things considered, i’m not convinced that it’s quite worth it, although those that own them love them like a deity.

https://youtube.com/shorts/joc3gTCagEQ?feature=sha... Handling .If all things were equal but they are not .That list can be dodged with a Mezglers designed closed block 9A1 engine . Ok it’s insured for the going backwards into a ditch , buts that’s extra hassle for a newbie .

When my 34yo Porsche was written off recently I replaced it with one a mere 29yo, so not sure I'm doing this right... Any car over 10yo will need stuff doing, and the same goes for Porsches as it does for all other cars at this age - buy on condition, don't impose limitations such as less than XX miles, or must have certain options. Get the best you can for your budget. At 29yo mine was still running original fuel pipes amongst many other things and, until this week's work, original expansion tank and sump gasket - but it has been looked after, with only 2 previous owners in that time. If you don't mind a bit of spannering, then mid-engined stuff is always a bit more complicated, and the compromises required for rear-engined stuff can force certain solutions that aren't really DIY-friendly. The other thing to figure out is what Porsche have you always wanted? it sounds like some form of 911, but you also mention mid-engine so Boxster/Cayman? And what is it you want from your Porsche - handling, engine, space for 2, or a 2+2, or a family car? Is it a daily driver, second/third car, garage queen? What budget have you got for purchase and maintenance, and does Man Maths work for you...???

Broadly speaking, newer is going to mean fewer issues, on average. But even 987/997 are getting on now, so it's a big ask to buy one with zero issues. You could pay a premium from one of the better known independents who will back the car. But typically that's not going to work out cheaper than buying privately and fixing whatever issues there are. If it did, they wouldn't have a business model. That said, paying the Indy premium / margin should make for a lower stress transaction and initial ownership experience and protect you against any major horrors. Overall, if you can afford a 997 Turbo / Cayman R, the maintenance costs of most of the cars being discussed shouldn't be too scary. The easiest option would be a 9x7.2 non-Turbo which are generally pretty reliable re major faults, young enough that you'd be unlucky to end up in a complete basket case and reasonable re running costs. i'm personally unclear on Turbo running costs, so can't comment on that. Most of those cars have at least some issues - rotten coolant pipes, worn suspension, gearshift cables ready to snap, maybe a DFI high pressure fuel pump or a cam solenoid about to go titsup.com - but nothing really hideous. Clock is ticking on our ability to enjoy these cars. And they're not getting any younger - neither are we. If you can afford one, get it bought ASAP, is my advice.

I don't think mid engined Porsches are particularly hard to work on at all, compared to many run of the mill cars they are a doddle! You will need to raise the car up on stands to do certain jobs ie plugs/coils but any car has to be raised to change the oil anyway. Lying on your back underneath a Cayman is probably more comfortable than leaning over the top of an M car engine imo.

I've had a few of these 987.1 , 997.1 and current 987.2 and on the Cayman's (servicing aside) you'll probably never need the engine cover off in your ownership. Even if you did it's 5 (?) easy access bolts and a lift off section of carpet. Anytime I've worked on them I've been astonished how easy they are to work on compared to other cars, most of the parts are pretty cheap too. I've never heard of engine out to replace a coolant pipe? Dunc. Edited by dunc_sx on Friday 14th October 10:38

Agree with all the like-minded spanner wielders on here. I've owned my 997 nearly 12 years and done a fair few jobs myself, none of which were particularly taxing once I'd ensured I'd read up properly and got the right tools together (Working on Missus '91 Mini Cabriolet has helped me amass quite the toolset, lol) > Brake Discs and Pads all round- This was a relative breeze, not withstanding the punch pin on the NSF Calliper that didn't want to budge initially. (Refit each pin with a dab - a DAB - of copper grease) > Front bumper removal, condenser check (they were fine) install grills behind each air inlet - Dead easy. Much easier than I though it'd be, despite the amount of underbody stuff that has to come off first. > New Coil Packs and Heat Shields - Came off the back of an Oil Service which included plugs from my Indy, when they noted that a couple were cracked. Aside from the OSR coil which slightly fouls the exhaust on its way out, this was another job much easier than I thought. Particularly as the new packs were of a revised design that have different fittings, so an 8mm ratchet spanner can be used to bolt up instead of trying to get a Hex drive in there. > Battery (Twice) 5 Minutes spannering, max. Short drive to reset PASM, PSM, Windows, etc. Sorted. > Underbody Air Con Pipe Seals - This defeated me. I bought the 2 seals (£12 !) after the system stopped working, and watched a couple of Friends Green Porsche's excellent 'Prep' videos where the seals were noted as a weak point. I knew my condensers were OK as they'd been changed by the previous owner, so I figured changing the seals would be an easy win. Nope. No amount of wrenching (or swearing) was going to budge the union unless it broke first, so I left it until this years Minor service at my Indy. Turns out it was seized and had to be cut off and replaced entirely, but at least the air con works a treat now (It was £180 including the regas for that. Not bad considering the union alone was £90 from Porsche) >Rear ARB Drop Links - The OSR link was 'noted' on last year's MOT so I replaced both to be sure. £55 for the parts and just over 90 minutes work. Not sure what jobs lay in the future, but I have to part ways with her soon due to an impending house build / move and we need the funds. She's just sailed through this year's MOT, so she won't want for anything for a new owner (wheel refurb aside as they could use it, but that's the only cosmetic concern). Basically, don't be afraid; roll up your sleeves and get in there. Edited by STiG911 on Friday 14th October 10:54

STiG911 said: Agree with all the like-minded spanner wielders on here. I've owned my 997 nearly 12 years and done a fair few jobs myself, none of which were particularly taxing once I'd ensured I'd read up properly and got the right tools together (Working on Missus '91 Mini Cabriolet has helped me amass quite the toolset, lol) > Brake Discs and Pads all round- This was a relative breeze, not withstanding the punch pin on the NSF Calliper that didn't want to budge initially. (Refit each pin with a dab - a DAB - of copper grease) > Front bumper removal, condenser check (they were fine) install grills behind each air inlet - Dead easy. Much easier than I though it'd be, despite the amount of underbody stuff that has to come off first. > New Coil Packs and Heat Shields - Came off the back of an Oil Service which included plugs from my Indy, when they noted that a couple were cracked. Aside from the OSR coil which slightly fouls the exhaust on its way out, this was another job much easier than I thought. Particularly as the new packs were of a revised design that have different fittings, so an 8mm ratchet spanner can be used to bolt up instead of trying to get a Hex drive in there. > Battery (Twice) 5 Minutes spannering, max. Short drive to reset PASM, PSM, Windows, etc. Sorted. > Underbody Air Con Pipe Seals - This defeated me. I bought the 2 seals (£12 !) after the system stopped working, and watched a couple of Friends Green Porsche's excellent 'Prep' videos where the seals were noted as a weak point. I knew my condensers were OK as they'd been changed by the previous owner, so I figured changing the seals would be an easy win. Nope. No amount of wrenching (or swearing) was going to budge the union unless it broke first, so I left it until this years Minor service at my Indy. Turns out it was seized and had to be cut off and replaced entirely, but at least the air con works a treat now (It was £180 including the regas for that. Not bad considering the union alone was £90 from Porsche) >Rear ARB Drop Links - The OSR link was 'noted' on last year's MOT so I replaced both to be sure. £55 for the parts and just over 90 minutes work. Not sure what jobs lay in the future, but I have to part ways with her soon due to an impending house build / move and we need the funds. She's just sailed through this year's MOT, so she won't want for anything for a new owner (wheel refurb aside as they could use it, but that's the only cosmetic concern). Basically, don't be afraid; roll up your sleeves and get in there. Edited by STiG911 on Friday 14th October 10:54 Exactly. Depends on how handy you are . That’s the rub , Some on here are all into stamps , others like the poster above are a roll your sleeves up and get stuck in kinds guy , They are ( pork ) incredibly well in a Germanic kinda way well thought out for servicing . You can do a lot of spanner ing yourself. Mr Google + you tube are your friends . I had mine 6 months and done the AC condensers ( front bumper off ) a doodle , flushed the brake fluid and changed the g box oil .Fixed the hood fit .Taken the door card off to fix a rattle , cleared all the drains , checked the poly belt . Removed the pads and cleaned up the brakes to increase inner calliper pressure etc etc . Had all the wheel arch linings out to inspect the cooling pipe connections and waxoiled them .Cleaned and waxoiled up the suspension top mounts and springs . Boxster 987.2 s are a joy to get your hands dirty on . It lives in a dehumidified garage btw .

Slippydiff said: But if you want something that handles with less aplomb, provides more of a driving challenge and requires some thought to pedal quickly down your favourite A or B road, AND will reward you in a way NO Cayman will, then a 996 would be a better choice. But what if you want a super stable sports car and don't need a driving challenge that requires some thought just to stop it going backwards through a hedge, and worse when you open the garage door you see an ugly lump of a 996 sitting there.

It's all preference. I'm not wild about standard / factory spec 996 Carreras - or 997s. I don't like the rear-engine weight distribution with that limited level of body control. It unbalances the car in a way I don't find pleasurable when there's that much body movement, especially on slightly tired suspension. On the other hand, add focus to the chassis (for instance, the GT3 models or a Carrera with mods) and it - the rear-biased weight - becomes a tool you use and then I enjoy it a lot. Whole different ballgame. But as standard, prefer the mid engine models to the Carreras purely for driving. I'll take a slightly tired Cayman over a slightly tired 996 Carrera all day long. The fact that I'd take a 996 GT3 over either of them is somewhat academic! And that's realistically what most of us are driving, slightly tired mostly factory spec cars, not cars with box fresh chassis and trick aftermarket dampers.

I've loved every minute of owning my 997 C4S, but I do put aside about £2k a year for keeping it in top condition.

Klippie said: But what if you want a super stable sports car and don't need a driving challenge that requires some thought just to stop it going backwards through a hedge, and worse when you open the garage door you see an ugly lump of a 996 sitting there. Comments like this are just so unnecessary, how did PH get to a point where people on the regular feel the urge to put others enthusiasts cars down…it’s just sad. Looks are subjective, let’s just leave it at that. To the OP’s question, I’ve had both a 996T and now a 997 GT3 and also helped a friend choose a nice 987.2 Cayman S. Most common fixes are no more or less difficult than any other car albeit the parts cost a high whack more. I replaced all the condensers, radiators, coolant hoses on the 996T, changed brakes, removed suspension to clean up and rust protect the chassis, changed a clutch accumulator, alternator, drive belts, exhaust swap etc… all with a Jack, some axle stands and a Halfords advanced tool kit. Yes if it were engine out, engine rebuild or gearbox internals I wouldn’t even consider taking it on, but to be honest I wouldn’t on any of my other cars either. To keep your DIYing from affecting resale I’d suggest always servicing at a well known specialist, anything outside of this you feel brave enough to take on is unlikely to devalue the car and will save you costs As for whether you should buy an old one or a newer one - this is all personal preference, what do you prefer? I can’t say I have much interest in anything post 2010, others will have a different opinion Edited by shantybeater on Sunday 16th October 21:47

shantybeater said: Comments like this are just so unnecessary, how did PH get to a point where people on the regular feel the urge to put others enthusiasts cars down…it’s just sad. Sorry I hit a nerve...how about this then, the 996 isn't the most hideous 911 ever produced it is in fact the most beautiful car that's ever graced the road.

RiccardoG said: Either you REALLY want it, or find reasons not to buy one! I did this back in 2010 and bought a Honda S2000. Two years later got my 997 and haven't looked back since. On the other hand 15 years ago I purchased an expensive 996 Carrera 2. It did little for me and I got rid of it at a huge loss a year later. Incidentally it had the IMS issue. Never went back to Porsche, seemed very much emperor's new clothes.

Klippie said: Sorry I hit a nerve...how about this then, the 996 isn't the most hideous 911 ever produced it is in fact the most beautiful car that's ever graced the road Good to see you totally missed my point. Anyways about time we get back on topic

Interesting comments and I’m still looking into this. That said, I watched a couple of YT vids the other day that got me scratching my head again. The Cayman seems to have the easiest access to the engine compared to the Boxster, but I watched one guy trying to replace the alternator - what a PITA. Then I watched another guy trying to remove the transmission drain plug screws/nuts in 986 Boxster, which needed some kind of special tool to do so. My impression of these cars is that the manufacturer deliberately makes it difficult for the less skilled home diy mechanic to carry out simple jobs and thereby creams off the top in dealer service costs.

shantybeater said: Comments like this are just so unnecessary, how did PH get to a point where people on the regular feel the urge to put others enthusiasts cars down…it’s just sad. Eh? That started on PH day one. 87% of all threads end up with (at least) two egos swinging their handbags at each other.

Billy_Whizzzz said: 10 year old expensive specialist sports car needs maintenance shocker. Nail/head.

maz8062 said: My impression of these cars is that the manufacturer deliberately makes it difficult for the less skilled home diy mechanic to carry out simple jobs and thereby creams off the top in dealer service costs. Interestingly that's exactly the opposite of the original ethos - and up until the end of the oil-cooled cars, Porsche tried to make the cars more 'home-mechanic' or easier to work on with each generation - obviously design constraints and having the engine in the back are always going to make jobs more difficult.... But of course Porsche was losing money and probably would have gone bust. They changed the whole manufacturing line for the 9x6 cars and you could say consciously made it less easy to work on from that point. My advice - buy older. (yes yes it's impossible to get at even the starter motor on the oil-cooled, I know, I know....) Edited by Orangecurry on Monday 17th October 10:25

I can echo the part about the 997 being fairly easy to work on yourself. This is all just routine maintenance (oil and filter change; spark plugs and coils; bushes and belt; alternator), but someone with a higher skill level than me could easily do more elaborate stuff with basic tools in a small garage or on the driveway. I recently had the Y-cable changed as this involved lowering the engine and would have exceeded my skill level, but even this is done by many people in their own garages without a lift. 996/7 cars are relatively easy to work on, ime. Have a look at American Porsche Forums like rennlist, as they seem to work more on their own Porsches than we do here in Europe. Middle engined cars are always more of a pita to work on, naturally.

maz8062 said: Interesting comments and I’m still looking into this. That said, I watched a couple of YT vids the other day that got me scratching my head again. The Cayman seems to have the easiest access to the engine compared to the Boxster, but I watched one guy trying to replace the alternator - what a PITA. Then I watched another guy trying to remove the transmission drain plug screws/nuts in 986 Boxster, which needed some kind of special tool to do so. My impression of these cars is that the manufacturer deliberately makes it difficult for the less skilled home diy mechanic to carry out simple jobs and thereby creams off the top in dealer service costs. I don't think this is the case. I don't think Porsche even really consider that anyone actually does DIY mechanics, they'd expect the vast majority of owners to use OPCs or indys. I had a 996 for a year about 15yrs ago. It has the IMS problem, fractured expansion tank and needed a gearbox rebuild. All within the space of a year. They were all dealt with under warranty, but none of them are things I could really have dealt with myself as a keen DIYer, except for perhaps the expansion tank. Access is pretty difficult, a lot needs the use of a lift. I would not buy one if you were planning on lots of home maintenance. Meanwhile I changed the fuel pump on my Dad's VW Polo in 16 minutes on Saturday, start to finish. Probably the easiest access job ever, most satisfying!

Filibuster said: Middle engined cars are always more of a pita to work on, naturally. That's not accurate. Overall, Cayster versus equivalent 911 there are always differences due to mid versus rear, but it cuts both ways and it's not clear that it's a net advantage one way or the other. For instance, generally much easier to get at plugs on the Caysters through the wheel arch, where a 911 might need bumper and even part of exhaust removed. There are other parts that can be serviced with engine in situ in a Cayster, but need the engine out on a 911. To be clear, the opposite applies too, parts where they're easy to get at on the 911 but need the engine more or less dropping on a Cayster. High pressure fuel pump on 9x7.2s IIRC is easy to get at on a 997 but a pain on a 987. There are plenty of examples either way - where it's a doddle to get at on one but a major teeth-sucking, engine dropping affair on the other, which is inevitable given the powertrain is essentially rotated through 180 degrees. It might work out a bit in favour of one or other overall, but I don't think it's obvious which way that is or that the difference is really substantial.

I thought this was Pierre Hedary video interesting: Classic Mercedes-Benz Parts v Classic Porsche Parts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wDe9b3F5_Y&t=...

esotericar said: Filibuster said: Middle engined cars are always more of a pita to work on, naturally. That's not accurate. Overall, Cayster versus equivalent 911 there are always differences due to mid versus rear, but it cuts both ways and it's not clear that it's a net advantage one way or the other. For instance, generally much easier to get at plugs on the Caysters through the wheel arch, where a 911 might need bumper and even part of exhaust removed. There are other parts that can be serviced with engine in situ in a Cayster, but need the engine out on a 911. To be clear, the opposite applies too, parts where they're easy to get at on the 911 but need the engine more or less dropping on a Cayster. High pressure fuel pump on 9x7.2s IIRC is easy to get at on a 997 but a pain on a 987. There are plenty of examples either way - where it's a doddle to get at on one but a major teeth-sucking, engine dropping affair on the other, which is inevitable given the powertrain is essentially rotated through 180 degrees. It might work out a bit in favour of one or other overall, but I don't think it's obvious which way that is or that the difference is really substantial. Everyday is a school day

It's surely a bit OTT to say no concessions are made. A balance is struck. Agree they favour expediting initial assembly a bit too much over later maintenance needs. But the cars would be totally different if no concessions at all were made. The entire design of the car is shot through with concessions. Safe to say the accessibility and ease of access and maintenance has been considered absolutely throughout for every single part. But equally safe to say in many areas decisions have been made to favour other factors like component or manufacturing / assembly cost which end up making certain jobs a complete pain in the arse that could have been avoided with a relatively obviously design tweak. Bottom line, though, is that there are countless areas where cost has been added to enable / expedite maintenance. As a really obvious example, it would clearly be cheaper to manufacture Caysters without the dual engine bay access panels - it adds both numerous parts and assembly processes. Having done a fair bit of work on these cars, I'd say the picture is mixed. Plenty of areas where careful thought has clearly gone into allowing for maintenance and plenty of others where the design is bloody frustrating. All that said, would probably agree the broader direction of travel here is probably in the wrong direction. When you look at what's required on late model 911s to do some basic service items, it does seem to be getting a bit ridiculous in a few areas.

Pierre Hedary comparing classic Porsche restoration vs Classic Mercedes-Benz Restoration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoLRvFUeDmo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wDe9b3F5_Y

I purchased a 3.8 997.2 over lockdown, didn't even see the car in person until it arrived at my door. Infact (due to lockdown) I hadn't even sat in or looked too closly to 997's (unless driving a GT3 in Forza counts ) and a 911 wasn't even on the radar. I did a lot of research, found a good and well reviewed chap to check the cars over that I was looking and read through his reports. Ended up with a single owner car with full Porsche service history and hopefully won't throw anything too expensive. In that time I've fitted a valved sports exhaust without any issue at all and infact found it easier to do than my old RX7, doing the spark plugs and coil packs look to be about the same and I'll do them myself when the time comes (wish I did them when the exhaust was off TBH). Gernal service parts like fluids, brakes and bushes all appear to be DIY able just like any other car. Yes the engine being in the back and tucked away does make access a b h but then my old TVR Tuscan was the same as was my RX7 with most issues meaning the engine was coming out. For me it was the best value car going with 2+2 seats, I did consider a Nissan GTR but the service costs on those make the 997 running costs look like a Honda Jazz. Over all I have actually been quite suprised at how reasonable most of the part prices are, service indicator just pinged on the other day for the first time in my ownership so I may change my tune

Having bought a 1 owner from new 996 c4s with full Guildford Porsche service i had a PPI before purchase and the car needed an long list of items to bring up to scratch. I used an independent 911 specialist near Gatwick who have given me very good service and sorted 95% of the list. Now i get in and use and enjoy the car, that is what they are for, buying any 2nd hand car is a risk. Do some home work get a PPI and go for it.

randlemarcus said: One of the OPs questions was around ease of spannering. Unless it's a keep for life car, you are actively reducing the resale value by DIY. Feel free to do your own thing, but buyers generally want to see specialist invoices for service and maintenance - OPC on an older car is not necessary (welcome, obviously, but not necessary). “Actively reducing the the resale value by DIY” On a ten year or older Porsche? Utter nonsense.I can understand prospective buyers wanting to see services in the book, but general maintenance? Get my brakes done at an OPC or even at an Indy? No thanks- I can’t imagine paying someone else to do my brakes-they are so easy to do .takes longer to Jack the car up and get the wheels off than to do the brakes. Some guy on YouTube paid three grand for a major service and new disks and pads on his 987 at an OPC!! Those prices simply are not for me,especially for something that is so simple to do-easily proved with the receipts to a prospective buyer. Edited by and31 on Saturday 22 October 00:01

Tend to agree. Stamps in the book is all 99% of punters want to see and is the critical bit re residuals. Doing your own brakes is a non issue and most people are scared of lots of bills and think it indicates a problem care and would prefer a car where the owner says it's always been perfect, never needed anything, despite the reality that the best buys are the cars where all the common failure points have been addressed.

maz8062 said: Then I watched another guy trying to remove the transmission drain plug screws/nuts in 986 Boxster, which needed some kind of special tool to do so. I've changed the transmission fluid on my manual 986 and I didn't need any special tools. It's an 8mm hex I think. Same again for the fill plug. Isn't that the same as the oil sump plug too or am I confused?