Tell me how to drive my 911... - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Hi all keen drivers, in particular those with experience of rear-engined German sports cars (Note to mods: I'm posting this in the General Gassing section as I feel folk who don't necessarily frequent the Porsche section may have some good input here.) Having enjoyed driving a Nissan 350Z for a couple of years, I have just bought a Porsche 911 - a 2007 Carrera 2S to be precise. Loving it so far, but I'm always keen to improve my driving technique and would be very interested in tips and technique from folks on here about how to handle a 911. For example, I've heard some on these forums say that going into a corner on the brakes is good in a 911 as it helps get a bit of weight over the front wheels and therefore helps turn-in. OK, no problem with that statement but wouldn't it unsettle the car to then get on the throttle mid-corner? I thought best technique is to do braking in a straight line, then turn in to the corner. Very interested to hear people's thoughts and experiences on this. Another topic is lift-off oversteer. Is a 911 particularly susceptible? If so how to avoid (apart from "don't lift off" - OK if you're on the throttle mid-corner you want to keep it steady, but you might decide to ease off a bit...)? Some reviewers talk about the 'pendulum effect' in a 911. Would anyone like to offer a description of what this feels like? I've experienced a feeling whilst going round corners at pace whereby the back end feels like it's coming round or sliding a bit, even though it's definitely not. It more just feels like the car is rotating - definitely not oversteer, just a feeling of rotational shift. Is this the 'pendulum effect'? Or does my car have some parts loose in the suspension? Comments on the above 3 points, and anything else related to enjoying driving a Porsche 911 safely and smoothly, are hereby invited! Thanks!

Slowly and carefully to the Lotus dealership to px it for an Evora.

Slow in fast out sums up all you need to know. A 2007 911 isn’t going to bite you more than anything else unless driven like a fool. It’s the 964 and earlier 911s that had expert only handling.

Cold said: Slowly and carefully to the Lotus dealership to px it for an Evora. I test drove an Evora S before buying the Porsche. I liked it but couldn't find an S with rear seats anywhere near me or within budget. Any driving tips perchance?

Way too technical for me to help but I would say I loved driving my 911 C2, it was like a nippy little skate that seemed to love every bend and always had me smiling. I hated driving my 911 Turbo because it felt very floaty on a twisty road and outside of the blistering straightline performance it was incredibly dull.

sam303 said: Some reviewers talk about the 'pendulum effect' in a 911. Would anyone like to offer a description of what this feels like? I've experienced a feeling whilst going round corners at pace whereby the back end feels like it's coming round or sliding a bit, even though it's definitely not. It more just feels like the car is rotating - definitely not oversteer, just a feeling of rotational shift. Is this the 'pendulum effect'? Or does my car have some parts loose in the suspension? Only you know what 'pace' you were going but in my rwd (not rear engine mind) car that feeling of coming round/rear wheel steer if you like is normally found on the edge'ish of traction with a steady throttle. In the wet and on a specific downhill slightly off camber road I got this, so be careful, perhaps it's low traction due to the ambient temps right now. When you say it's definitely not oversteer is this because you aren't getting it like you might have the 350Z? It sounds to me like subtle oversteer rather than snap/provoked oversteer. I think the old reputation of them being very tail happy has now gone but they do compensate to some degree by having really wide rear tyres, and they aren't playfully drifty like most front engine rwd cars.....my last sports car crash witnessed was a 911 backwards into a road sign on an A3 junction just after a roundabout.

Also can you tell me the tyre brand without looking!?

May not work on the newer sanitised cars, but on my old 3.2 Carrera Sport (no PAS, no ABS) the trick was to brake in a straight line, get the turn started on a modicum of throttle, lift off abruptly as the car turned in to get the tail moving out, apply progressive opposite lock and floor it for the most marvelous controlled power-slides out of corners, around roundabouts etc. The lift-off, tail out, powerslide-out was such an addictive drug it was hard not to do it on every corner. Not the quickest way down the road or round a track but so satisfying. It's the only handling trait in any car I've ever had that I really miss.

Take it to a skid pan to safely learn it's limits or book some advanced tuition. Having someone on here tell you something isn't going to help you when you need it. Having practical experience is.

DaveH23 said: Take it to a skid pan to safely learn it's limits or book some advanced tuition. Having someone on here tell you something isn't going to help you when you need it. Having practical experience is. This.

Not specific to a 911 (as I don't have one)... sam303 said: For example, I've heard some on these forums say that going into a corner on the brakes is good in a 911 as it helps get a bit of weight over the front wheels and therefore helps turn-in. OK, no problem with that statement but wouldn't it unsettle the car to then get on the throttle mid-corner? I thought best technique is to do braking in a straight line, then turn in to the corner. Very interested to hear people's thoughts and experiences on this. It depends how quickly you are going from brake to accelerator. The idea with trail braking is to have fast feet so that the suspension doesn't fully unload and bounce you around (or spin you into a ditch) when you switch from braking to accelerating. If done correctly you should go from a nose down aspect to having the car "squatted" in a fairly flat aspect around the turn, if you get it wrong the nose will lift too much and you'll get out of shape. sam303 said: Another topic is lift-off oversteer. Is a 911 particularly susceptible? If so how to avoid (apart from "don't lift off" - OK if you're on the throttle mid-corner you want to keep it steady, but you might decide to ease off a bit...)? You can ease off without getting lift off oversteer, just be progressive, don't snap the throttle shut and expect it to cope. sam303 said: Some reviewers talk about the 'pendulum effect' in a 911. Would anyone like to offer a description of what this feels like? I've experienced a feeling whilst going round corners at pace whereby the back end feels like it's coming round or sliding a bit, even though it's definitely not. It more just feels like the car is rotating - definitely not oversteer, just a feeling of rotational shift. Is this the 'pendulum effect'? Or does my car have some parts loose in the suspension? There will be some play (compliance is the usual term) in the suspension since it has lots of moving parts and some of them are rubber. That is probably what you're feeling.

I'd definitely advise getting some tuition with someone like Don Palmer. You'll enjoy your car a lot more afterwards.

Like you stole it.

Debaser said: I'd definitely advise getting some tuition with someone like Don Palmer. You'll enjoy your car a lot more afterwards. Also this. I did a day with Don and it opened my eyes.

Why not make a trip to the Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone?? £295 well spent. https://www.porsche.com/silverstone/

Hard & fast!

I have had mine a year now so still a beginner but fwiw..... I have found it the most frustrating car to get right. I don't think the technique is that different to other cars I have driven but it does expose errors in my technique and makes it easy to spot rough driving. Brakes are the thing I have had to focus on most. I had historically developed a style of progressively applying the brake but coming off the brake pedal quite sharply to get to the throttle. The 911 is making me do the opposite. Mine works best when I brake very hard and get to the threshold quickly but come off the brake pedal more gradually. (hope that make sense). If you have not yet done so I recommend finding the limits of your brakes and tyres in a straight line (where it is safe to do so) with a series of high-ish speed emergency stops that trigger ABS. You might just be surprised how effectively the car can shed speed. Practise slowly coming off the brake and feel the weight shift. As for trail braking. Firstly I would never condone carrying speed into or out of a bend that is imprudent given your sight lines. That said I nearly always brake to the apex when I am driving for fun and the people who will rant about that being unsafe on public roads are simply wrong. The smoothest most organic feeling bends you will get, IMHO, will come from: Very hard late braking followed by a smooth gradual release of the brake pedal (turning in at the same time) then smartly over the the throttle (combined with a touch on anticipatory opposition lock) and WOT as you feel the rear squat a little. Ymmv etc. One of the nicest thing about the 911 imo is that, because the rear tyres will wear out quicker anyway, you can dish out some abuse to the fronts with impunity. That weight shift you feel without losing traction I guess (as someone earlier said) is compliance. My engine is compliantly mounted and can be felt to shift with the suspension. Switching to sports plus mode makes an obvious difference to this sensation, at least on the 991 anyway. In my experience this is felt a long way before traction breaks. On a dry road at least, you'd have to be a loony to really get the the back out the highway. I guess the pendulum effect just refers to the extra difficulty of avoiding over-correction of yaw with opposite lock and not unwinding it fast enough as the car come back upon line. Because of the weight distribution it might be harder to get right first time? I don't really know tbh. I have driven a 911 on hard snow and didnt find it that much different to other cars on the day. In normal driving, with season appropriate tyres, in good conditions, it just shouldn't be a factor.

It’s a 997, a trained chimp could drive one - very safe and predictable. I’d say you have nothing to worry about in addition to what you’d need to know driving any ‘normal’ sports car. If you were asking about a ‘69 SWB on the other hand...

Like. You. Stole. It

klan8456 said: a trained chimp could drive one Sigh. A crash waiting to happen.

sam303 said: Cold said: Slowly and carefully to the Lotus dealership to px it for an Evora. I test drove an Evora S before buying the Porsche. I liked it but couldn't find an S with rear seats anywhere near me or within budget. Any driving tips perchance? I went from a 996 to an Evora S. They’re very different and need a very different approach. My main memories of the 911 were that getting the car turned in is where most of the rear engine quirks need attention. When talking about braking into the corner, you’re also easing off the brake as you apply more steering. I think you need the front loaded particularly through that initial turn in phase. I never really had lift off over steer, but I did often have the back step out around initial turn in (particularly in left - right type) . And that’s where I was most aware of the weight and pendulum affect, with a front engine rear drive car I’ve always felt you really could decide when to bring the back in line, the sensation I had with the 911 was that the weight out the back meant that you had to hold / maintain / catch it and then bring back in line afterwards. Once you t turned, the traction out of corners is ridiculous, different to anything I’ve had before and you really can use more throttle than you’d imagine and when the back stepped out on the throttle, it was far more conventional in feel than it was when it happened on turn in. That’s not professional advice, it’s just comments on how my 911 felt when pressing on.

LordHaveMurci said: Hard & fast! Damn & blast, 20 minutes too late ! Love it when somebody else has the thoughts as I Anyway, as 'LordHaveMurci' said.... enjoy !

Be respectful of others not as lucky as you. Don't drive it as if you were in a BMW. Respect for having the sense to realise that just because you'll be in a Porsche you're NOT an expert driver. The biggest laughs we had when I was a marshal at a motor circuit was Porsche Owner Cub days. We had bets as to how soon we would drag some twerp with more money than ability out of the Armco.

....like you stole it!!

Like a motorbike

trickywoo said: Slow in fast out Good philosophy for life

Like This or like this

I'm going to say, and this will be frowned upon, but all cars require essentially the same sort of thing. The best balanced car in the world is only as good as the setup, so that's the first thing I would look at. If you are sure that the tyres and geometry are right then you need to learn the chassis. A modern-ish 911 isn't the same 'going backwards into a hedge' that it was in the 80's and as so long as you take some time, gradually increase your speed, and inputs, you have everything you need already. A track day would be a good place to explore the car safely, go midweek to avoid the F1 guys in Clios etc. HTH

rockin said: Why not make a trip to the Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone?? £295 well spent. https://www.porsche.com/silverstone/ +1. One of the best days I've ever had in a car and I learned a load. The food is great and the staff are brilliant. I would recommend it to anyone regardless of the car they drive.

Scootersp said: Also can you tell me the tyre brand without looking!? No, but having gone and looked I can tell you that they are (very recent) Pirelli P-Zeros.

My own experience (964rs and now 991 GT3) is that, as usual with any car, weight management is the key. If you consider that for peak performance (blurring lines here because obviously the public road isn’t compatible here) you should either be flat out accelerating or flat out braking as much as is humanly possible. Time spent away from these two extremes is a *bad* thing and will slow you down, corner lines being equal. If you consider a front engined car under maximum effort braking there is more weight transfer over the front axle compared to the 911. This means that less of the total traction of the front tyres will be available to you to turn in to the corner at that point. For that reason, in the front engined car at maximum effort you’d need to be coming off the brakes to free up some of the “traction circle” to you at the point of turn in. In the 911, by contrast, you can’t get as much weight over the front and so you still have some side grip on the front wheels to get the front pointed into the corner even under braking. If you’ve followed this through in your mind you’ll now see where the 911 can now be tricky - you’re turned in and you’re carrying more speed and now the engine hung out the back wants to keep going straight - but because it’s connected to the front of the car (!) it turns into a big pendulum and itself requires that mass to be managed by getting onto the power and using the traction / unwinding the lock / winding on opposite lock (!) in order to complete the turn. Pertinent operators notes are a) that at some critical point you will be going too fast to keep the rear tyres within their own traction circle and you’ll slide and b) that if you do get into trouble and heavily crossed up especially with the older car the best thing you can do is actually let go of the steering wheel because the caster of the car and pendulum swing will wind on opposite lock miles faster than you can even if you’re an expert wheel twirler. With the GT3 (mine is pdk and left hand drive so the pedal position is just incredible) I use my left foot on the brake and right foot on the throttle. If you learn to drive this way the 911 becomes devastatingly effective and immensely satisfying to drive because you can be on the brakes still as you peel into the turn but then simultaneously have power there to balance the pendulum in a linear way as you release the brake. This is infinitely better than taking your foot off the brake for a split second as you transfer to the accelerator pedal because at no point is the car coasting - this allows you to pivot (I don’t mean physically slide really - I mean the point of transfer from deceleration to acceleration) the car mid turn with complete repeatability. I hope some of that makes sense and helps a bit!

Thanks everyone who contributed - appreciate the insight.

rockin said: Why not make a trip to the Porsche Experience Centre at Silverstone?? £295 well spent. https://www.porsche.com/silverstone/ I would support this - have done their session and it was really good... you can take your car / hire one of their cars... you do a mix of track and classroom sessions - and while the track is a lot of fun, the classroom sessions are great as they do a lot of work on balance and weight - and show how it differs, and of course focus on the 911... you will learn more car specific info there than anywhere else... for a more generic course, then Don Palmer's course would be a good choice

Left Foot Braking will help if you can master it

I did a CarLimits day when I got my first Honda S2000 (no traction control, just ABS) in 2003. It was one of the best driver training courses that I've been on and taught my so much about RWD handling. They're still going: https://www.carlimits.com/

pretty much everything that needs to be said has been said, but just to reiterate (I drive a 2WD 993 carrera): 1. brake in a straight line deep into the corner 2. if it's a tight corner gradually lift your foot off the brake as you turn (trail braking to keep some weight on the front-end thus help the car turn in) 3. fast feet onto the accelerator at (or sometimes even before) the corner's apex 4. nail it out of the corner taking advantage all the traction from 911s having the engine over the rear rinse & repeat

Yup- slow in, fast out works well. The modern 911s (by that I mean water cooled 996 onwards) are massively overtyred (and at least in my case, far more capable than the driver!); I never really struggled for grip and it never got too out of shape (unless in slippery conditions and under provokation). When that did happen (at slow speeds mind you), it was easy and fun to control on the throttle. So drive it with a big smile on your face, learn the on limit behaviour in a safe environment. If you are driving it on the limit on the public road all the time, then you're probably going way too fast!

Did my first track day in one of those, late last year. I got really confident towards the middle of the day and by the end, i was pleased with how much i was pushing it, albeit nowhere near it's potential. I kept the TC on and the one i drove was a tip tronic automatic, but i was really surprised at how well it gripped and it's overall composure. No brown trouser moments like i was expecting, anyway! My advise would be to get it out on track and maybe get some tuition while you're at it. That should give you the knowledge and confidence on how to get the best out of it.

I drive my 911 like I ride my bike,slow in fast out. 997's have so much mechanical grip, that you have to be some massive hooligan or deeply incompetent to have any issues cornering. Just relax, and enjoy the best all round sports car money can buy.

Always remember 20 is plenty. Any faster and your mpg is going to suffer.

ac-x8bkd said: Always remember 20 is plenty. Any faster and your mpg is going to suffer. Agreed - I wouldn't have a car that does more than 20mpg - though one does occasionally, one sometimes even averages 21 and the third never does

Learn to heel and toe. Don't lift if the back end starts getting out of kilter when cornering hard and really really don't brake! Steer and power on!

At least here in Canada the Porsche club offers outstanding training that is graduated from beginning to advanced and is specific to Porsches. Plus you get out on a proper track in safe conditions. Assume there is something similar in the UK. I cannot recall if your car has stability control (my 2008 RS does not) but in general the 997 is fairly predictable.

Always drove my 996 Turbo like I stole it. Seemed to work out fine as I never crashed it.

Cold said: Slowly and carefully to the Lotus dealership to px it for an Evora. OP is asking about used German metal not kit cars dressed up like pretend miniature 90s Italian plastic.

GetCarter said: klan8456 said: a trained chimp could drive one Sigh. A crash waiting to happen. Why? Its a modern 911 with ABS, PSM and a whole bunch more electronics to keep it on the road and they are pretty predictable. You would really have to be driving like a complete tosser to crash one.

So many driving gods in one thread....

TwinExit said: So many driving gods in one thread.... Indeed. They know it all until they don't. ETA.. He wasn't hurt, but badly shaken. Edited by GetCarter on Tuesday 27th February 18:01

this has a few good points - https://advanced-driving.co.uk/how-to-drive-a-pors...

Get some driving tuition from someone who knows 911’s. That’s the only advice worth following.

I’ve just got into a 991.1 GTS from a 981 GT4. The front end is massively different and I’m feeling a slight floaty sensation entering roundabouts at moderate speed. I’ve not been trail braking and the ambient temps have probably not been in my favour. I’m on Pzeros but will be putting PS4S on soon and getting a much needed geo done, as the car is very fidgety. I am, however, really enjoying getting to know it and adjusting my driving style (the GT4 was dynamically much more traditional as you’d expect. In fact it was other worldly). Some useful tips on here with obvious caveat of keeping things sensible on public roads.

Can you throttle-steer these modern 911s? If so, play around with that at low or medium speeds I couldn't on the Cayman GTS and never realised how much I loved playing about with that, until it was gone. Perfect balance can be a vibe-killer!

Surely the answer is - "every day"

grumpynuts said: I drive my 911 like I ride my bike,slow in fast out. 997's have so much mechanical grip, that you have to be some massive hooligan or deeply incompetent to have any issues cornering. Just relax, and enjoy the best all round sports car money can buy. After decades of big bikes and a few years with a 996 C2 and a 997 Turbo it’s how I do it and it works really well, especially on twisting B-roads (where the fun is). Slightly different on track where more liberties can be taken and a far safer environment. As others have said, I’m wondering exactly how you need to drive on dry public roads to get a 997-era Porsche out of shape.

In a similar vein, has anyone done the Silverstone "warm up" 1/2 day experience? Seems like a good mix of fun and useful day to day benefits. Would be using my own car - 997.2 CS2.

n12maser said: pretty much everything that needs to be said has been said, but just to reiterate (I drive a 2WD 993 carrera): 1. brake in a straight line deep into the corner 2. if it's a tight corner gradually lift your foot off the brake as you turn (trail braking to keep some weight on the front-end thus help the car turn in) 3. fast feet onto the accelerator at (or sometimes even before) the corner's apex 4. nail it out of the corner taking advantage all the traction from 911s having the engine over the rear rinse & repeat I like this summary, it’s pretty much what I strive to do - on track - on road at legal speeds, I drive my 997 GT3 pretty much like I would any other car