991.2 GT3 RS suspension for Nordschleife - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Forgive me if this has been answered before. I plan to have Manthey set up my 991.2 GT3 RS for Nordschleife. Regarding suspension should I go for the MR coilover kit or is the MR Upgrade kit for OEM sufficient and how big is the difference in terms of handling?

I drove a standard GT3 RS WP with the Manthey geo on the Ring a few weeks ago. It was sensational - turn in was outstanding and much improved over OEM; the steering is lighter and overall the set up liberates the fantastic chassis. I also have a GT2RS and have recently had the Manthey KW suspension fitted, along with full geo. It was extraordinary. The suspension is derived from the GT3 R race car - and it shows. Whilst stiffer the damping quality is in another league to stock. On the road of course the car is slightly compromised (but not badly); but on the Ring it was sensational. A set up is of course not a big outlay, whilst the suspension kit is. The former make a big difference; the latter takes the car to another level! Hope that helps. Cheers

Have you spent much time there on the standard setup? Notwithstanding stefan’s post the standard cars are already pretty optimised!

braddo said: Have you spent much time there on the standard setup? Notwithstanding stefan’s post the standard cars are already pretty optimised! Forgive me as I know the question wasn’t aimed at me, but I do agree, the OEM set up is excellent. I’ve driven scores of laps in my previous 991 RSs there at enjoyed every moment. That said, having driven my friend’s RS a month ago with the Manthey geo, I will definitely be booking mine in next May when - hopefully - I will back at the Ring with DN events. It was that good.

Oem always going to be lacking on track. Geo's a must have , and then really caster pucks and better pads. As for shocks, my self I would go Ohlins TTX. Being 2 ways you can get your head round fine tuning as a ring setups way off a smooth track set up. The new manthey kW are 4 way dampers. So very tricky then to setup on your own.

stefan1 said: braddo said: Have you spent much time there on the standard setup? Notwithstanding stefan’s post the standard cars are already pretty optimised! Forgive me as I know the question wasn’t aimed at me, but I do agree, the OEM set up is excellent. I’ve driven scores of laps in my previous 991 RSs there at enjoyed every moment. That said, having driven my friend’s RS a month ago with the Manthey geo, I will definitely be booking mine in next May when - hopefully - I will back at the Ring with DN events. It was that good. Nice to hear from real experience.

Many many thanks for your great reply’s. Stefan S experiences certainly helped me and I’m planning KW coilovers for the next season. My very experienced friend and VLN driver is very happy with the KW coilovers on his personal 991.1. However is the 991.2 oem so much better and KW coilovers not really necessary ? To answer the question I have 1000 plus laps over the last 12 years but new to the GT3 RS world and has done about 50 laps this fall in the RS. I used to drive a rebuilt E46M3 with KW Clubsport 3 set up by Raeder/Manthey. With that experience I fell my 991.2 GT3 RS is way to soft , sloppy and unstable with the standard oem and no Manthey set up especially going down turning right at the 2km sign entering the Hatzenbach area, fuchsrohre , downhill after Kallenhard and uphill after bergwerk. However can see the previous owner has done some setup. Front camber is all inward and the rear wing is fully down.

Porsche911R said: Oem always going to be lacking on track. Geo's a must have , and then really caster pucks and better pads. As for shocks, my self I would go Ohlins TTX. Being 2 ways you can get your head round fine tuning as a ring setups way off a smooth track set up. The new manthey kW are 4 way dampers. So very tricky then to setup on your own. I do agree on the Ohlins option, I would add Schirmer Nitrons that they developed for the gt3 rs, Motion Control as the absolute best, but Manthey KW BY FAR are the most practical, for one lift can be integrated, second their damper spring is better, more compliant and the exact rigidity needed and to finish it up, they can provide you the correct settings for various driving scenarios, basically with Manthey you will not have to go around trying different spring rates or try to find how to setup for road or track, or for mountain sport driving.

crwslk said: Many many thanks for your great reply’s. Stefan S experiences certainly helped me and I’m planning KW coilovers for the next season. My very experienced friend and VLN driver is very happy with the KW coilovers on his personal 991.1. However is the 991.2 oem so much better and KW coilovers not really necessary ? To answer the question I have 1000 plus laps over the last 12 years but new to the GT3 RS world and has done about 50 laps this fall in the RS. I used to drive a rebuilt E46M3 with KW Clubsport 3 set up by Raeder/Manthey. With that experience I fell my 991.2 GT3 RS is way to soft , sloppy and unstable with the standard oem and no Manthey set up especially going down turning right at the 2km sign entering the Hatzenbach area, fuchsrohre , downhill after Kallenhard and uphill after bergwerk. However can see the previous owner has done some setup. Front camber is all inward and the rear wing is fully down. Given your experience level I would say go straight for the damper upgrade, RSS top mounts and geo. IMO it's still not enough though. You can't hide the weight of the car. i ended up buying a cup car and that solved the problem!

Porsche911R said: The new manthey kW are 4 way dampers. So very tricky then to setup on your own. Once you understand differences between the low speed and high speed components of compression and rebound, and provided you have some parameters to work to, they are not too bad. Been running 4-way air shocks on downhill and enduro mtbs for years now. (That there's a £500 rear shock.) Setting up from scratch, with no advised spring rates or settings would be tricky, but not completely impossible. IME (limited), bikes or cars, there's only a relatively small window of settings which actually work with any given spring rate.

JulierPass said: Given your experience level I would say go straight for the damper upgrade, RSS top mounts and geo. IMO it's still not enough though. You can't hide the weight of the car. i ended up buying a cup car and that solved the problem! what's a cup car weigh >1200kg's ? so not much saving and now just hassle getting it to a track !

Porsche911R said: JulierPass said: Given your experience level I would say go straight for the damper upgrade, RSS top mounts and geo. IMO it's still not enough though. You can't hide the weight of the car. i ended up buying a cup car and that solved the problem! what's a cup car weigh >1200kg's ? so not much saving and now just hassle getting it to a track ! 250ish kilos lighter than a 991 RS . That's quite a saving - you really do post some drivel R.

JulierPass said: 250ish kilos lighter than a 991 RS . That's quite a saving - you really do post some drivel R. Why drivel, it’s not light ! One would think it were 900kg when people say how light it is. Bac mono is light as an example at 540kg not a bloody cup car lol.

Porsche911R said: JulierPass said: 250ish kilos lighter than a 991 RS . That's quite a saving - you really do post some drivel R. Why drivel, it’s not light ! One would think it were 900kg when people say how light it is. Bac mono is light as an example at 540kg not a bloody cup car lol. We are discussing 911's not BAC's you doughnut. God you love to complicate things don't you? If you do a lot of circuit work and want the best iteration of a 911 then a cup car is it. It's much better, and lighter, that it's road going counterpart. 250kg's is the equivalent of about 3 adults and a child, that is a massive amount in anyone's book.

Porsche911R said: JulierPass said: Given your experience level I would say go straight for the damper upgrade, RSS top mounts and geo. IMO it's still not enough though. You can't hide the weight of the car. i ended up buying a cup car and that solved the problem! what's a cup car weigh >1200kg's ? so not much saving and now just hassle getting it to a track ! Not much saving, 250kg lol, don’t be silly, massive saving, your granny would Even notice the difference Driving to Tesco never mind on a track!!!!!

250kgs is massive amount out of a car like for like on track

braddo said: stefan1 said: braddo said: Have you spent much time there on the standard setup? Notwithstanding stefan’s post the standard cars are already pretty optimised! Forgive me as I know the question wasn’t aimed at me, but I do agree, the OEM set up is excellent. I’ve driven scores of laps in my previous 991 RSs there at enjoyed every moment. That said, having driven my friend’s RS a month ago with the Manthey geo, I will definitely be booking mine in next May when - hopefully - I will back at the Ring with DN events. It was that good. Nice to hear from real experience. Real experience,not from comics is important. What is the manthey geo settings on oem,would be interesting to see. Not sure whats trying to be achieved as the rs out the box is wicked,but as said you can never hide the weight, they do feel even heavier as you are traveling faster the brakes having to work harder. Maybe a road converted cup car is the way forward,lightweight,steel brakes and tyre selection.

Yellow491 said: you can never hide the weight, they do feel even heavier as you are traveling faster the brakes having to work harder. Everything will feel a bit 'stodgy' when you're used to driving stuff with "RSR" at the end of their model designations.

04BAP said: 250kgs is massive amount out of a car like for like on track It’s not 250kg though ! That’s been made up for effect. And thus you still get through pads and disks etc esp if you are going faster. And yes any wight savings is great, but a cup cars not a light track car, it’s about the same as my 987.2 Spyder in fact !

To be fair, when compared to a steel bodied gt racing car a cup is pretty light. It would be comparing apples with oranges to compare weights of gt racing cars with any other racing category. Cups have always been circa 200 plus kg lighter that the RS road version. Those weight savings help create a fundamentally improved performance window.

Digga said: Yellow491 said: you can never hide the weight, they do feel even heavier as you are traveling faster the brakes having to work harder. Everything will feel a bit 'stodgy' when you're used to driving stuff with "RSR" at the end of their model designations. Haha digga,very true,the latest rs is a great road car in my opinion thats also good fun on a track but its no race car.Even the wife thought the rs was a Great ride on the road compared to the others i have. I was down at manthey for 3 days a year ago looking at all the mods plus other things, great work but expensive.

crwslk said: As I started this tread I would like to share what I have learned. Last month I got the MR suspension and brake pad upgrade. Set up for Nordschleife. Total different car in a good way. Rear feels a bit softer. The car is way more stable overall with great balance and turning into corners feels more precise even with trail braking. Brakes are easier to modulate. Very happy about the outcome.

crwslk] said: As I started this tread I would like to share what I have learned. Last month I got the MR suspension and brake pad upgrade. Set up for Nordschleife. Total different car in a good way. Rear feels a bit softer. The car is way more stable overall with great balance and turning into corners feels more precise even with trail braking. Brakes are easier to modulate. Very happy about the outcome. Awesome. These dampers do really seems to make a big difference. The philosophy of the set up is different so when your brain is thing it should be harder/stiffer is actually just takes care or a bump or kerb in one stroke with the body under complete control no bounce. Just gives confidence. Enjoy and keep posting up your experiences.

Thanks for the kind words TDT. Next, should one just splash out the $ on Cup 2 R tires? No doubt it’s a better tire for Nordschleife. However they will only last perhaps 1/3 or 1/2 the laps compared to the standard cup 2’s on a GT3 RS. Any experiences?

crwslk said: Thanks for the kind words TDT. Next, should one just splash out the $ on Cup 2 R tires? No doubt it’s a better tire for Nordschleife. However they will only last perhaps 1/3 or 1/2 the laps compared to the standard cup 2’s on a GT3 RS. Any experiences? This might be a stupid suggestion - but why not just get slicks given the increased wear of the 2 R?

MDL111 said: This might be a stupid suggestion - but why not just get slicks given the increased wear of the 2 R? From the POV of the fact that (seemingly) a good few laps thrash on R’s would require a new set of boots to then drive home on, safely/legally, it’s not so daft. You have to take two sets of tyres either way. The problem I guess is that, as I understand it, to get the best from slicks you’d need to alter geometry away from any semblance of road friendly.

Digga said: MDL111 said: This might be a stupid suggestion - but why not just get slicks given the increased wear of the 2 R? From the POV of the fact that (seemingly) a good few laps thrash on R’s would require a new set of boots to then drive home on, safely/legally, it’s not so daft. You have to take two sets of tyres either way. The problem I guess is that, as I understand it, to get the best from slicks you’d need to alter geometry away from any semblance of road friendly. Not necessarily digga,a fast road or what ever set up similar to what you would require for cup r etc would work ok on slicks and last a lot longer than the daft cup2r.The road suspension would probably be to soft to max out a set of slicks. Hopefully some dry running thursday

Yellow491 said: Digga said: MDL111 said: This might be a stupid suggestion - but why not just get slicks given the increased wear of the 2 R? From the POV of the fact that (seemingly) a good few laps thrash on R’s would require a new set of boots to then drive home on, safely/legally, it’s not so daft. You have to take two sets of tyres either way. The problem I guess is that, as I understand it, to get the best from slicks you’d need to alter geometry away from any semblance of road friendly. Not necessarily digga,a fast road or what ever set up similar to what you would require for cup r etc would work ok on slicks and last a lot longer than the daft cup2r.The road suspension would probably be to soft to max out a set of slicks. Hopefully some dry running thursday Hope so although I only have one set of tyres anyway. Being pragmatic, I have two track days this week, so if one is wet, well, it’s a first world problem.

Next question: 991.2 GT3 RS VS 992 GT3. Both with Manthey KW suspension, brake lines, MR pads and set up. Which one is the best car for Nordschleife?

crwslk said: Next question: 991.2 GT3 RS VS 992 GT3. Both with Manthey KW suspension, brake lines, MR pads and set up. Which one is the best car for Nordschleife? Who’s driving? But in seriousness… I think that is obviously huge factor. Towards the end of the video… you see what an accomplished driver and VLN racer has to say about himself and his lap compared to Kevin Estre… in the same car! It’s gulf. Specifically for 991 3RS vs 992 RS…. Front end stability is going to unlock options for you. Edited by TDT on Monday 27th February 14:44

crwslk said: Next question: 991.2 GT3 RS VS 992 GT3. Both with Manthey KW suspension, brake lines, MR pads and set up. Which one is the best car for Nordschleife? Accoring to Harris in the latest CC Podcast the Manthey kit for the 992 GT3 delivers a 4 sec improvement in lap time at the 'ring. The kit is £50k plus about £10k to fit it and another £10k if you want the wheels. I doubt there are many amateur drivers who couldn't get a much more significant difference in their 'ring lap time by spending maybe 20% of that on a couple of weeks on one on one tuition.

I agree in regard to who is driving and is a the 992 50K kit worth it for 4 sec. and can a non race driver even fell the difference? The price for the 992 GT3 Manthey KW suspension, brake lines, MR pads is Euro 19000 A comment from a very knowledgeable friend of mine at the ring: The 992 GT3 is in my eyes as analogue to drive as the 991.2 RS, it still conveys a Porsche feeling but is more effortless to drive.. Edited by crwslk on Monday 27th February 15:39

Of course this opens up the debate… if you can’t replicate or get close to say, magazine driver lap time… ‘just get more tuition’… but that doesn’t tell the full story really and is a bit disingenuous. Crswlk makes the important point that actually, changing to more focussed dampers/suspension, or ‘better brakes’ gives any driver more confidence.. and therefore will go faster than they may otherwise have felt safe doing with a standard car… which when you see some of those laps are right on the edge of grip and look pretty sketchy in a number of places. Also as stated… you don’t have to buy the whole kit… suspension package is available standalone, for much less, but it is a base level pre-req for the aero kit.

anonymous said: [redacted] There's a comment on one of Misha's (Apex Nurburgring) recent videos about the 'Ring being a "momentum circuit". I think it's more than just that, but I totally get what he means. I'd say it's also un-sighted in so many places and a lot of them fast, that knowledge of the circuit and also the line and practice are more valuable there than just about any other circuit.

I think there's something else that is really important. By making the car handle better, allowing kerbs to be taken without upsetting the car so much, having brakes that can manage the workload better and remain more consistent, starting to understand managing tyre pressures and operating temperature ranges, it's much easier for the driver and car to grow together. This is not in my view a pressing anxious process .... it's better an experience based process of building confidence that enables the driver to relax into a pace which gradually comes with laps ... and often tuition. My view is that this is much easier when the the car is working as well as possible ... and to be fair to the manufacturers the components fitted as standard are often a compromise to the suit the average purchaser. Why ? Because the markup from manufactured component cost to the end user is often a factor of three as standard, and often more when a specced upgrade. Since list price is important, the logic is obvious. One example is the BMW M2 ... a good car ... performance version a faster good car ... the CS ... a fantastically good car but look at the extra cost for a car that looks almost the same ... £20k extra with the same build costs.

Cheib said: I doubt there are many amateur drivers who couldn't get a much more significant difference in their 'ring lap time by spending maybe 20% of that on a couple of weeks on one on one tuition. Well, if the 'get tuition rather than spend X on something' is being wheeled up as a justification against, it should also apply to buying a more expensive car as well as expensive mods. Many amateur drivers including many here could likely gain a good chunk of time at the ring by selling their current cars and buying a much less expensive car and spending a fraction of the difference on tuition and track time..... At the end of the day, people get cars (or mods) primarily because they can and also because that change/improvement/upgrade represents a sufficient improvement to the car one feels for whatever reason it's worth doing. Whether or not Kevin estre gains 1/5/10/30 seconds at the ring is a little besides the point.....