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YOUR RESEARCH2004 GT3 coilovers for 996C2
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Replace 997.2 gt3 rs
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997.2 GT3 RS that entered 24h ADAC race used slicks so suspension was changed to accommodate.
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And saying a race team changed their suspension doesn't mean they did so for the tires alone.
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Than means that almost the same valving ratio and springs were used for many P cars.
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997.2 GT3 RS that entered 24h ADAC race used slicks so suspension was changed to accommodate.
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Suggestion
I've run about everything there is on the market from stock to full moton and monoball setup and from PS2's to slicks and can speak from what works not opinion.
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they do look dirty...
but prior to taking them off, i clocked 2:02 at TH with stock gt3 on mpsc. that's pretty decent time for thunderhill. so the shox should be in good shape.
at the price. the new owner can hose them clean ;-)
Oh you're always entertaining to read...
I fully agree with you, it is an outstanding set up and not easily replicated. It's also nice that Bilstein will rebuild and custom valve them if you want for something like $175 per pair of shocks.
Good luck w/the sale.
^ yeah LVdell revalved his and swears it's better than my $20k system. good thing he's on the wrong coast near you. i sure dont want him to blow by me and ruin my fantasy .
I don't think I've ever run across Dell actually. That's just fine, if I'm driving something fast it usually doesn't belong to me. If I'm driving mine, it's on street tires, always slower than the "fast" people save for street tire classed time trials. One day I'll learn to love blowing money on tires, one day...
Anyway, there's something to be said for changing and customizing stuff, I'm sure your car feels sharper than a stock GT3, with your wallet being so much lighter and all. I kid I kid.
I trust my jewish friend about what good matzo ball soup should taste like. Just the same, I would take John's word for it when he says stock GT3 coilovers are a cheaper and better solution to other aftermarket options. +1 for a very fair price.
When you start posting late at night your memory gets severely flawed!
Mine we not re-VAVLED they were re-PLACED
And yes, I dropped my car off with the race shop to consider re-valve and came out with a $20K+ bill as well. You wouldn't happen to know who influenced that decision now would you???
is this 20k bill on your STOCK, nothing but STOCK TT?
oh.... sorry, was i day dreaming.
you meant to say only the rear seats on the TT are stock....
ah. got it.
i have to tell you that recaro now makes hans specific rear seats for children under 10. and they do a custom molded piece for infants. i can email you links.
Ok, uninformed, uneducated newbie question time: what is the difference between a Bilstein-made GT3 coilover set up, and Bilstein PSS 10s (or 9s)? Springs? Valves? Something else?
For the sake of disclosure and relevance, I recently bought Ahmet's 996 and passed on the GT3 coilovers he's having trouble selling. What kind of bonehead mistake was that?
BTW Ahmet, car's running like a top.
The pss serie is a quality product as most bilsteins are. The problem is that its a supermarket suspension. Than means that almost the same valving ratio and springs were used for many P cars. So owners of 996 that bought them did an upgrade GT3 owners did a downgrade. Bilstein now doesnt make that mistake anymore with the newer setups.
The gt3 suspension its a typical bilstein bottle and hr springs, nothing fancy but it works great as long as you stay with street tyres.
So to sum it up for a 996 both are an upgrade.
John
I can't speak for Ahmet, but my understanding is that he only had the the 996 I bought for maybe six months, vs an earlier one that he may have developed/modded. I don't think he worked the suspension on my car, and I bought it with stock suspension.
After purchase, I did go the PSS 10 route plus other bits, alignment, balancing etc. I'm on street tires, and may go to something like an RA1 when my skills improve a couple of notches. I will say that the car handles beeaaauuutifuuully, and is a substantial improvement over stock. Admittedly, at 115K, new shocks would have freshened things up quite nicely. But, I knew I wanted to take the car in this direction anyway.
Ok, done hijacking thread . . . sorry . . .
Aaron, nice to see you here. Indeed that car was never modified. My pervious 996 which Dave now has felt great on GT3 suspension. It's even better now on PSS10s, but it's not a fair comparison as the car's also gotten a full professional set up from all the control arms to bushings, tires, etc. I got the GT3 coil overs back from Dave, but am not sure if I'll put them on the current car, yes another C2, an MK2 this time...
Anyway, the car's looking great. I'd love to see more pictures if you feel like sharing (email, pm, link, whatever).
OK, finally signing off from this for sale tread before causing even more disruption!
Cheers.
yup doing a bit of research as we speak. Id really like a gt3 sus. Would be one step closer to a real gt3. Why are all my favorite cars only avail in europe?? MK1?
A set of these on a 996 C2 will absolutely make it a track weapon. I did this transformation on my 996 a few years back and it has been an excellent setup (lookup my old thread on it for what you need).
I am not following all the mis info about not pairing this with track rubber, so the stock GT3 suspension is better than PSS9s but you shouldn't run R compound on the GT3 suspension? Yet the GT3 came stock with a variant of the MPSC (an R compound tire).
A good driver with this suspension and R6s should not be making any excuses of not being fast enough in the corners. Period. It takes a lot of talent and equipment to outshine this setup.
I know I will miss mine.
-Paul
Who said that? I can tell you that the suspension is NOT setup to run a Hoosier R6. The grip of the tire is not a good match for all the rubber in the suspension. There are other good DOT-R tires that are not as grippy that would be fine with the stock suspension (i.e., NT01 R888, etc).
Actually it didn't. The 997 came with a street version of the MPSC.
the monoball top hat can be obtained from tarett $500
rear drop link collar is a motorsport part, 993.333.513.80 about $400/pair.
with that in mind, that's why i dropped the price
For the price, that's a fantastic deal. Spend $700 on a set of coilovers, add the monoballs and collars and for less than 2k you have a system that is far superior to the PSS10!
Personally, I'd take it a step further, and get new springs and have the dampers sent off to Bilstein to re-valve to match the setup (something like $80 a damper).
Couple things to throw out there:
I think the OEM front top mounts are $200 ea. from Suncoast. They come up used every once in awhile. I sold a lot of 3 of them last year for stupid cheap.
It could be worth it to someone to look into seeing if the H&R coilover drop link collars work too. I'd bet they're a good bet less expensive than the OEM part if they have the same diameter and thread pitch.
This.
For the front if the stock sway bar is still used you don't even need he threaded drop link collar at all as you can still attach to the pinch bolt on the wheel carrier. Maybe those collars could even be used on the rear shocks? Dunno if diameter is different or not. If you've got GT3 bars in the front either the adjustable collar on the coilover is needed or adjustable drop links.
Arlan Motorsport is another source for the drop link locator collar.
If you use the drop link collars and stock gt3 drop links with the gt3 sway bar it all lines up like the factory intended. The only need to adjustable drop links is to help take out some of the preload as you move the droplink across the range of the sway bar mounting holes.
Gonna have to strongly disagree based on my personal experience as well as that of a few other very good drivers. But sounds like a great way to justify the monoballs
There is no doubt that full monoballs everywhere is the better solution for a race car and on certainly on slicks.
You can disagree as strong as you want and you can put whatever driver you want to stand behind your statement but the fact is Hooser R6's are not the proper tire for a stock suspension. Nobody said you can't run them. Heck, you can run anything you desire. But what you fail to realize is that the tire is part of the suspension and has it's own spring rate as well as alignment requirement.
Tell me how you are supposed to make that happen on a stock suspension.
Just wasting your $$$ on R6's with a stock suspension.
We are talking about a stock GT3 suspension and not a stock C2 suspension (wrt the shocks/springs and sway bars).
Someone had better tell the whole Spec 996 group that they are all making a terrible mistake specifying Hoosier R6s without a full monoball suspension.
Saying that the tires is part of the suspension and has its own spring rate is valid but there is no "fact" that the R6 is improper for a non monoball suspension, that is purely your own opinion.
Mooty, you may now have your for sale thread back.
-Paul
Paul you seemed to have missed my point. I never said full monoball suspension as it'sm ore than just that. You put that in your interpretation. I said all the rubber as well as the lack of alignment ability that the tire requires. Not my opinion. Just fact. Compromise is what 996 spec is and that's fine. It's setup for cost control.
I've run about everything there is on the market from stock to full moton and monoball setup and from PS2's to slicks and can speak from what works not opinion. Have you? (that was rhetorical, no response needed)
But whatever, back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Dell, happy to end the pissing match and talk via pm. But what are you getting at regarding lack of alignment ability?? I know you drink the 3G koolaid and that is likely what they told you. Was there a setting that you needed that were unable to achieve with a GT3?
Look, it is cool to upgrade your DE only car way beyond what is needed, we have all done that to some degree, but to preach to folks telling them your opinion is fact is just silly.
Regards,
-Paul
Dell is 100% right in all his posts in this thread.
What he said is not his opinion but facts and may I say very well known facts already.
You probably misunderstood him.
John
SOLD!!!
now would someone pls buy my OEM rear deck wing.
it's too nice as my 2 YO's first surf board.
i'll go cheap.
you may need some DIY to get the air filter thing to line up and you may have to move the fan around. but hey, it's like $6000 from the parts counter.
interesting. But I guess I missed the facts posts as well. Where are these facts that say that r6s shouldn't be run on a gt3? I would like to understand how they are improper as I have been running them for quite some time. And I didn't know Hoosier even published the spring rates for the r6. I'd like to see that as well.
-td
1. Tire manufacturers never publish spring rates.
Spring rates take into consideration the weight of the car so it�s impossible to cover all weights with one number.
2. I just pointed out the obvious that Dell said tires must/should match the cars suspension.
Fact: GT3 suspension and almost any suspension on road cars never "matches" grip offered by an almost slick tire like the R6.
Want proof? I will take a recent one. 997.2 GT3 RS that entered 24h ADAC race used slicks so suspension was changed to accommodate.
John
PS. Of course you can use whatever you like from fresh slicks to tires that hang on boats on the side. But that�s not optimal. Your suspension should be altered too.
Sorry, this still doesn't make any sense to me. Why are the R6s NOT matched for a GT3? Is there some empirical data that says R6s and GT3 suspension bits are mismatched? Is something going to break on the car?
And saying a race team changed their suspension doesn't mean they did so for the tires alone. Everyone knows that a better suspension is, well, better.
If anyone has this info, or can point me to a thread, book, website, etc that has this info that would be great. I've looked and can't find anything on point [wrong keywords?].
-td
Nice try.
What race team its Porsche factory saying we will race the standard car and they did with minor changes BUT THEY MATCHED THE SPRINGS TO THE TYRES.
"Die Federraten m�ssen wegen der erh�hten Radst�rze vielleicht noch etwas erh�ht werden. "
http://www.sportauto-online.de/news/...n-1793219.html
John
If you want to dispute reality better start from somewhere else. I am with you dont worry.
Oy vey. I'm still not following. That quote is about spring rates and camber for racing slicks. I get that they are matching that car to Michelin slicks. But on the GT3 I think I have enough camber [Hoosier recommended specs]. If that leaves springs, why aren't the stock GT3 spring rates compatible with R6s. When I run R6s, I get well into the right temp range [around 190 across the tire], so it seems like something is working right...
-td
There isn't right and wrong it�s not a life and death decision. The springs aren�t going to attack you in the face for putting R6. Nothing is going to break either.
It�s optimal and not optimal
GT3 springs rates are about 225F and 550R. That rate in a 1400kg car is not optimal for slicks. Ask anybody that knows suspension and is above 11 years old.
John
Slicks!? I thought we were talking R-comps, and R6s in particular on a GT3 with stock suspension. I get that slicks are a different animal. The slick info really is apples to oranges.
I was asking specifically where there was any info, discussion, or support for the statement that a GT3 [in stock trim] and R6s don't match.
If this stuff is "very well known," it shouldn't be so hard to find it. But I'm just not finding any of this info on the interwebs at all. Maybe the 11 year old you mentioned can PM me and explain the GT3 and R6 issue.
-td
Hi himself I am **** Wei, I am 10 years old and an auto mechanic and a suspension tyre specialist. John asked me to verify that R6s arent an optimal match with stock 996 gt3 suspension. So here it is they are not optimal. B�ngfēi zu� jiā
: )
Wow, I unsubscribe and then check back in to see what's happening and I get this? I love it! Good old fashion Rennlist banter.
Carry on fellas, you seem to been having a blast
TD,
Now that I have seen you decided to drop a grenade in the racing forum (if that wasn't your intent, then you have my apologies) I'm bailing on this since you are getting the same explanations (in as many words) that I have given and some just want to argue and slander (cough cough, Paul).
Nobody said you can't run them on the GT3 suspension. You just cannot align and setup the car to take advantage of the grip of the tire and will be wasting your money burning through a tire that is not matched well with the stock setup. But, and a big but, you add the proper components to the GT3 (which we all have done) you can run the tires as they are designed maximizing grip, life, etc.
The stress you will put on a stock suspension will send you down the path of replacement anyway so you might as well get the proper setup before heading down that path and do it right in the first place.
Back to enjoying my vacation
Paul, quit trying to start bait. It's obvious. **READ YOUR DEFINITION AGAIN AS YOU MIGHT HAVE GLOSSED IT OVER** You go after my race shop and then try to talk above your level. Please. Give it a rest as I don't care to get into it with you.
Dave, you gotta do better than that! The pics we yearn for are the NSFW type
Unsubscribing........
...unless of course the "pics" start appearing
Exactly when did I "go after" your race shop? By saying you are drinking their cool aid? lighten up. You self admittedly stated that you went in for a shock revalve and new springs and walked out with a $20K suspension upgrade.
So what exactly is "above my level", now it is starting to get interesting.
Dell, you seem to forget that you have come a long way in the last 3 or so years and that some of us have been at this since the late 80s. But it is still cute to see you on your soapbox.
Good for you Paul. But not sure I'd admit to being at this for 20+ years and still not knowing what your talking about. Enjoy talking to yourself. Off to the ignore list for you.........
Well, I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I really want to understand the dynamics.
It seems that there are PLENTY of R-comp tires that generate high grip levels on par with R6s [perhaps slightly lower for some tires]. If there is some "issue" with matching R6s to a suspension, then all of these R-comps tires will suffer the same fate. Thus, it seems to me that you can never really "match" any R-com tire to a GT3 suspension until you do a suspension upgrade. If that is the case, then you are not "losing" anything extra by R6s over another R-comp, except by degrees. The answer would be to upgrade regardless of what tire you are running.
And if it is actually true that R6s cannot be maximized with stock components, is there a quantitative amount that is left on the table? 1%? 10%? 25%? And which of the stock components result in this deficiency?
Like I said, I'm not trying to stir the pot - just trying get my head around this information. Perhaps it is a disjointed collection of snippits on the web - but I haven't even found a starting point to evaluate it.
-td
Didn't think so since I know our banter over on GT3 seems to be a notch above. Anyway, it'd be great if we could spend some time together at the track comparing cars, tires, different setups, and of course talk about it over a beer
It's hard to get into percentages, etc, but I can tell you that my progression with the GT3 from stock from to proper track suspension was really explained well by feeling what each tire did with each suspension component. I spent a ton of time and was very methodically about what to move to and when to do it. I asked a lot of questions along the way to really understand what was happening. Sure, I could have gone straight to the R6 but it made no sense with the stock suspension. Would never have been able to maximize what the tire could give me in stock form.
Anyway, I am sure there are those that will be able to give a great technical explanation over in the racing forum.
The obvious explanation is that everybody can't afford to upgrade and match suspension in a way that does it right so it gets pieced together over time. IMHO, throwing a set of R6's (especially for a DE) on a car that is not "properly" setup for them is throwing money out the window. But then again, isn't that the very nature of this sport to begin with?
td/Himself,
Start here (a classic):
http://www.amazon.com/How-Make-Your-...1224159&sr=1-1
And then if you're really up to it, here:
http://books.sae.org/book-r-372
On the spectrum between street tires and slicks, R6s are closer to slicks, especially in comparison to other R-compound tires that are loosely grouped in the same category. You really do need high camber angles, and suspension components that both allow and
maintain
optimal alignment under loading to use these tires to their full advantage.
In general, a higher grip, higher spring rate tire is a bad combination for a low spring rate rubber bushing equipped car.
Read those books
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
