Porsche 911: is there any substitute? - Page 3 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

It's a motoring icon that has slowly evolved over 60 years, nearly cancelled in the 80s I believe and yet had a reprieve thanks to enthusiast support and seems to have gone from strength-to-strength since and still managed to stay relevant. Porsche make many more models these days but the 911 still seems like the Porsche to have and the one that's not going anywhere soon. Depending on what model/era you go for, it's all things to all people. Everyday sports car, GT car, track/race car, supercar. In some ways it's a bit of a dull/predictable choice and not as exciting to look at or as exotic as some of its would be competitors, kind of the "Golf GTI" of sports/GT cars if you will. So what is the enduring appeal of the 911? I have limited first-hand experience of them but thought the 930-generation a bit of a relic in the 80s with the front-engined Porsches (944 Turbo/928) being more desirable to me and the future of Porsche (I think that maybe Porsche may have thought this at the time also). I thought that the last air-cooled 993s were very pretty cars but not in the "big league" with Ferrari, still a bit of an antique compared to a Honda NSX and not the luxury GT car that it is today. Porsche then focussed on mid-engined cars, which in theory are less compromised and have more potential than the 911 as demonstrated by Porsche's hypercars (Carrera GT/918) but despite this, the 911 still endures. Stuff like the Audi R8 and V8 Vantage seem more "special" and exotic to me and with a lottery win, I would be very tempted but if I had saved up for all of my life, for some reason the 911 still appeals. I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children and the relative usability/reliability/doable running costs if you're going to use it every day is part of the appeal but whereas the front boot might be more practical than something mid-engined, is it as practical as something front-engined with a regular rear boot (XK/F-Type/Granturismo/V8V/GTR/AMG GT etc)? Something less exotic like a BMW M3 has always offered a level of practicality and more "bang-for-buck" than a regular 911 Carrera too but then I guess that's "just a fast 3-series". So what is the enduring appeal of the Porsche 911, what makes them special and despite some of the compromises of its design, how has it managed to prevail over all of its would-be competitors for the last 60 or so years?

white_goodman said: ... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ... I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911 (Cue lots of pics of people's bairns in the back of their 911) Engineering excellence plays a big part I think - they're just so much more reliable than other supercars. Perhaps more so in the 90s and 00s as other brands have caught up a bit

Canon_Fodder said: I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911 (Cue lots of pics of people's bairns in the back of their 911) Engineering excellence plays a big part I think - they're just so much more reliable than other supercars. Perhaps more so in the 90s and 00s as other brands have caught up a bit 996/early 997 engines had some issues....overall probably a good update from the air-cooled cars though and they have gone from strength-to-strength since.

white_goodman said: kind of the "Golf GTI" of sports/GT cars if you will. nailed it. there are many better options for purer fun & 'sport', but it reigns supreme as the polished allrounder. there are more credible alternatives nowadays that may have more foibles along with their own charms. Jags, Massers, McLs, AM, Lambo. then you have to consider that the 911 has 2 streams: GT and vanilla. one now has double wishbones, is hand-built and is hard to purchase. halo defined! The vanilla has enough engineering depth behind to just keep ahead. however, the market has transformed immensely during its life and its own position too. so, substitute for what?

I'd love a go in one because anyone who's had one say that they are ace and there is just nothing like them. I've personally always preferred(mostly) the 928 because of the V8 and I find that I generally go for front engined/rwd cars too. I've also done the M3 and M4 thing now, so maybe it's time to try a 911. However...knowing me I'd still go in the direction of the Merc AMG GT instead!

Canon_Fodder said: white_goodman said: ... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ... I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911 One of the main reasons I owned my first few 911’s. And probably the main reason I’m looking to get into another that isn’t a GT car - 997.1 C2 manual ideally

I have to agree ,the 911 GTS I recently owned was a great car if a bit breathless north of 150mph . The new Vantage I traded her in for I have to say has been a revelation especially in acceleration and road presence . It’s also in my humble opinion a far better sounding engine . It is however a strict two seater .

PGNSagaris said: Canon_Fodder said: white_goodman said: ... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ... I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911 One of the main reasons I owned my first few 911’s. And probably the main reason I’m looking to get into another that isn’t a GT car - 997.1 C2 manual ideally I do have a 997.1 C2 manual and I take my young one out in the back seat all the time.

reddiesel said: the 911 GTS I recently owned was a great car if a bit breathless north of 150mph That does sound like a real problem. Would really annoy me on the M25!

For me it's all about the handling balance. Having the engine out back seems to introduce the driver to a new type of driving experience. There's no other car that can make you feel the way you do when you get your braking, entry speed, line and perfect application of throttle just right, which then fires you out of a corner. The wail from the flat six is the icing on the proverbial. It's weird, as like all the best machines it's somehow greater than the sum of its parts. And most of them look great too.

Was a BMW M driver for many years and had only a passing interest in Porsches. I went to the Nürburgring one time and a friend persuaded me to take a couple of pax laps in a very sorted 996. I was at that time less satisfied with BMW direction anyway. I moved over, bought a 997 GT3RS and now have a variety of the things. I do not for a moment thing that they are the best cars in the world. Different people have very different needs and driving styles. For me, they work very well. There is a precision to them, a sense of involvement and a sense of history too. You can draw a line back through the development of the car and see how it got to the present. I also have a Jeep and the one this it shares with a 911 is that it requires no knowledge or interest in cars to identify it. My advice if you get one is to drive the wheels off it. They are tough cars and can take spirited treatment.

Filibuster said: PGNSagaris said: Canon_Fodder said: white_goodman said: ... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ... I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911 One of the main reasons I owned my first few 911’s. And probably the main reason I’m looking to get into another that isn’t a GT car - 997.1 C2 manual ideally I do have a 997.1 C2 manual and I take my young one out in the back seat all the time. Me too, my son was in the back from a year old, Le Mans at three years old and a few times after. It’s a decent family car when they are small.

Brighton Speed said: For me it's all about the handling balance. Having the engine out back seems to introduce the driver to a new type of driving experience. There's no other car that can make you feel the way you do when you get your braking, entry speed, line and perfect application of throttle just right, which then fires you out of a corner. The wail from the flat six is the icing on the proverbial. It's weird, as like all the best machines it's somehow greater than the sum of its parts. And most of them look great too. I only ever drove a 997 and a couple of track 911s. I know what you mean and it is very rewarding past the apex, although it often requires trail braking until very deep. My only issue was how the turn in feels, as in weirdly floaty even on the shaper big camber track cars. I suspect this is resolved with the GT cars and the 992 what with the different weight balance.

bencollins4 said: reddiesel said: the 911 GTS I recently owned was a great car if a bit breathless north of 150mph That does sound like a real problem. Would really annoy me on the M25! I agree, it's the most frustrating thing about 911 ownership. Once, I did 174 in it. Took an age to get there

browngt3 said: I agree, it's the most frustrating thing about 911 ownership. Once, I did 174 in it. Took an age to get there Interesting, I guess that's what perhaps makes it closer to a sports car than a GT car, although I would have thought that a 992 Turbo S wouldn't have an issue blasting past 174mph?

nickfrog said: Brighton Speed said: For me it's all about the handling balance. Having the engine out back seems to introduce the driver to a new type of driving experience. There's no other car that can make you feel the way you do when you get your braking, entry speed, line and perfect application of throttle just right, which then fires you out of a corner. The wail from the flat six is the icing on the proverbial. It's weird, as like all the best machines it's somehow greater than the sum of its parts. And most of them look great too. I only ever drove a 997 and a couple of track 911s. I know what you mean and it is very rewarding past the apex, although it often requires trail braking until very deep. My only issue was how the turn in feels, as in weirdly floaty even on the shaper big camber track cars. I suspect this is resolved with the GT cars and the 992 what with the different weight balance. Obviously they aren't all that similar, but the floaty front end was something that took a lot of getting used to for me in my old 1982 rear engined Skoda Estelle. It was a very odd feeling I thought. The front end always felt incredibly light, and that probably explains why I have a preference for front engined rwd drive cars still now.

reddiesel said: The 911 GTS I recently owned was a great car if a bit breathless north of 150mph . Which generation car was that? I ask because I did a trip to Germany and back in my 992 GTS and I hit 178mph on the Autobahn and it was still pulling like a train. I only slowed down because there was traffic ahead.

I think the Evora S/400 is a proper rival.. I recently drove both a 997.2 and an Evora S and have come away looking for an Evora 400..I should possibly have bought the 997.2 as it seemed a really good car for the money and was promptly sold the day after I viewed it, ( 48 hours after going to market ). It was a lovely thing and the Lotus couldn't match the germanic build quality however I was looking for a weekend toy and to my mind the Evora just felt ike more of an event, more of a sports car...I used to own a modded 987 Cayman S which I loved and tbh I felt the same about that vs 997.1...It just felt more "sports car".. To my mind the 911 is the best car out there still if you had to own just one car or were wealthy and looking for a daily.. I'm sure when it comes to weekend toys the GT3 models are superb and visceral enough but I think at the lower end of the market there are better sports cars in Cayman and Lotus..

Like many on here I suspect, I've had a few 911s (and boxsters) since 1996 and each evolution has impressed me more and more - but......you only live once and if you've limited access to wealth, it's good to try other things. After selling my last 991.2 C2S cab last summer, I've just purchased an older (2017) M4 CP cab. It's certainly different. It's a bit wobbly and power delivery takes a bit of getting used to. I suspect I will get another 911 at some point, just not sure when or what.

I think there are 5 primary factors that established and defined the original 911’s reputation back in the 60s and ‘70s: - Butzi’s clean, simple, lightweight, compact design - Its overall practicality and the 2+2 configuration - Its day-to-day usability - town, touring, track - The race-bred engineering quality and reliability - The rewarding driving dynamics and performance However, until the switch to the water-cooled models (996>) a lot of people didn’t really get the 911, it tended to be bought by the cognoscenti . Many preferring to spend similar money on bigger, more luxurious, more exotic alternatives from Ferrari, Aston Martin, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes….. In fact, Porsche developed the 928 to cater for that market, and had planned to phase out the 911 in the ‘90s. But, instead, they finally recognised the marketing value of evolving the 911, through the Geneation Z 996, 997, 991, 992 guises, to appeal to a wider mainstream audience. Ironically, it is many of these new customers, who now consider themselves one of the ‘911 set’, but would never have actually bought one back in the ‘golden era’ of the air-cooled generation.

Canon_Fodder said: white_goodman said: ... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ... I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911 (Cue lots of pics of people's bairns in the back of their 911) Engineering excellence plays a big part I think - they're just so much more reliable than other supercars. Perhaps more so in the 90s and 00s as other brands have caught up a bit When I had young kids I had a 4 seat 911 (rather than a GT3) as they were in the back of it everyday. Very few 4 seat alternative sports cars to transport kids.

DMC2 said: Canon_Fodder said: white_goodman said: ... I guess that the 2+2 configuration appeals to those with young children ... I don't think that's a significant factor. I'm quite old and I have never seen a child in the back of a 911 (Cue lots of pics of people's bairns in the back of their 911) Engineering excellence plays a big part I think - they're just so much more reliable than other supercars. Perhaps more so in the 90s and 00s as other brands have caught up a bit When I had young kids I had a 4 seat 911 (rather than a GT3) as they were in the back of it everyday. Very few 4 seat alternative sports cars to transport kids. I liked my Cerbera at the time for that as well. I only had 1 kid back then, but it was nice that we could all go out in it together though. I remember my BIL considering a 911 when his kids were younger as well(he'd still also love one now to be fair!).

It's pretty much the only practical offering for decent sportscar, that you take the family out in, that has reasonable running costs. We've done numerous family holidays across Europe over the years in mine, including last year when we took it via Germany, over the alps into Italy. Kids at the time were 11 and 14, and we managed fine And someone had to upload that photo!

JamesW said: It's pretty much the only practical offering for decent sportscar, that you take the family out in, that has reasonable running costs. We've done numerous family holidays across Europe over the years in mine, including last year when we took it via Germany, over the alps into Italy. Kids at the time were 11 and 14, and we managed fine And someone had to upload that photo! Kudos to you and your family! My daughter has recently turned 11 years old, she's quite tall for her age and doesn't like sitting in the back for longer than about 40 mins. Recently did a trip to visit the in-laws and she didn't enjoy it. So had to get the wife to sit in the back, with daughter at the front on the way back, and then wife was complaining! lol

Geneve said: I think there are 5 primary factors that established and defined the original 911’s reputation back in the 60s and ‘70s: - Butzi’s clean, simple, lightweight, compact design - Its overall practicality and the 2+2 configuration - Its day-to-day usability - town, touring, track - The race-bred engineering quality and reliability - The rewarding driving dynamics and performance However, until the switch to the water-cooled models (996>) a lot of people didn’t really get the 911, it tended to be bought by the cognoscenti . Many preferring to spend similar money on bigger, more luxurious, more exotic alternatives from Ferrari, Aston Martin, BMW, Jaguar, Mercedes….. In fact, Porsche developed the 928 to cater for that market, and had planned to phase out the 911 in the ‘90s. But, instead, they finally recognised the marketing value of evolving the 911, through the Geneation Z 996, 997, 991, 992 guises, to appeal to a wider mainstream audience. Ironically, it is many of these new customers, who now consider themselves one of the ‘911 set’, but would never have actually bought one back in the ‘golden era’ of the air-cooled generation. A perfect summation, and yes the part of your post that I’ve highlighted, is unfortunately very true ...

traction practicality build quality/reliability and over time, the very fact it did, is, and continues to beat or hold its own, that it has become and icon, makes it desirable and difficult to avoid. Physics and the competition are coming for it now, even Porsche are trying to shove the engine forwards. And now we have the great electric powertrain leveller....pretty soon the design will be everything and the 911 has that shape... A truly amazing car....but too obvious for me, too ubiquitous... thankfully I don't need the little rear seats.

Schuey_911 said: JamesW said: It's pretty much the only practical offering for decent sportscar, that you take the family out in, that has reasonable running costs. We've done numerous family holidays across Europe over the years in mine, including last year when we took it via Germany, over the alps into Italy. Kids at the time were 11 and 14, and we managed fine And someone had to upload that photo! Kudos to you and your family! My daughter has recently turned 11 years old, she's quite tall for her age and doesn't like sitting in the back for longer than about 40 mins. Recently did a trip to visit the in-laws and she didn't enjoy it. So had to get the wife to sit in the back, with daughter at the front on the way back, and then wife was complaining! lol I've always been told that the rear seats aren't especially pleasant in 4 seat convertibles, but I've only ever sat in the front of a 4 seat convertible so I don't know myself though. It is good that you can all get out in it together I reckon.

cerb4.5lee said: I've always been told that the rear seats aren't especially pleasant in 4 seat convertibles, but I've only ever sat in the front of a 4 seat convertible so I don't know myself though. I cheated - two cars - the boys loved both for different reasons... The E30 is a proper car, with enough room for four adults and their luggage. Even with the roof stowed.

Brighton Speed said: For me it's all about the handling balance. Having the engine out back seems to introduce the driver to a new type of driving experience. There's no other car that can make you feel the way you do when you get your braking, entry speed, line and perfect application of throttle just right, which then fires you out of a corner. The wail from the flat six is the icing on the proverbial. It's weird, as like all the best machines it's somehow greater than the sum of its parts. And most of them look great too. You've nailed it there. That corner exit traction feel is addictive. Also, the fact that you can't just enter a corner recklessly and it makes you focus on driving and not just outright speed. I'm referring to pre-traction control stuff here. Edited by Andyoz on Wednesday 1st February 15:10

Orangecurry said: cerb4.5lee said: I've always been told that the rear seats aren't especially pleasant in 4 seat convertibles, but I've only ever sat in the front of a 4 seat convertible so I don't know myself though. I cheated - two cars - the boys loved both for different reasons... The E30 is a proper car, with enough room for four adults and their luggage. Even with the roof stowed.

Orangecurry said: I cheated - two cars - the boys loved both for different reasons... The E30 is a proper car, with enough room for four adults and their luggage. Even with the roof stowed. Are those 996 gen 2 Carrera wheels on the 993? They really suit the car!

Schuey_911 said: Are those 996 gen 2 Carrera wheels on the 993? They really suit the car! Yes - the 996 had 8J/10J, as are mine in the photo. To be fair, the so-called MY02 wheel is simply a gorgeous set of shapes and curves, all on one wheel. They'd look good on anything. But I've got 17s fitted at the moment. I think the car drives better. You want another photo? Angled-view is even better than side on, IMO.

Absolutely stunning. Great choice there!

Orangecurry said: Schuey_911 said: Are those 996 gen 2 Carrera wheels on the 993? They really suit the car! Yes - the 996 had 8J/10J, as are mine in the photo. To be fair, the so-called MY02 wheel is simply a gorgeous set of shapes and curves, all on one wheel. They'd look good on anything. But I've got 17s fitted at the moment. I think the car drives better. You want another photo? Angled-view is even better than side on, IMO. They do indeed look spot on and proof the old saying, that you often strike gold with the base wheel of the next generation. A rule that applies often, not only Porsches!

Filibuster said: Orangecurry said: Schuey_911 said: Are those 996 gen 2 Carrera wheels on the 993? They really suit the car! Yes - the 996 had 8J/10J, as are mine in the photo. To be fair, the so-called MY02 wheel is simply a gorgeous set of shapes and curves, all on one wheel. They'd look good on anything. But I've got 17s fitted at the moment. I think the car drives better. You want another photo? Angled-view is even better than side on, IMO. They do indeed look spot on and proof the old saying, that you often strike gold with the base wheel of the next generation. A rule that applies often, not only Porsches! That is a great looking car for sure! I need a go in a 911 I reckon for definite.

I was always impressed by the fact that quite a few 911s entered Le Mans . I know they were heavily tweaked 911s. but the fact they were considered adequate to circulate with LMP1s and LMP2s still struck me as a commendation to their strength and reliability. Porsche designers and engineers when faced with the somewhat flawed format inherited from the 365, which in turn was based on the Beetle, used quite a few tweaks to get the early 911s to handle, including fixing lead bars behind the front bumpers, But they have certainly done an outstanding job with the 911. One way to experience them is to do a Porsche track day at the Porsche centre's own circuit at Silverstone. Expensive, but you wont forget it in a hurry.

I have a super-dull diesel, auto 7 seater for family duties and school runs (4 x kids). I also have a 911, "only" a 996, but still a 911. Today, thanks to the strikes, only 2 kids had to go to school. They wanted to take the Porsche, so we did. I am always amazed how nice it is to drive when coming from the bus. Quick, the steering is FANTASTIC, very very nimble, it's just a pleasure to go out in. Have thought about getting rid many times, as it doesn't really get the use since baby came along last year, but the kids won't have it, and I don't think there's any persuading them otherwise. They pester me to help wash it even if I have only driven it a few miles since the last wash, they wave like mad at other Porsches (even in the bus), they always want to stop when we go past the Porsche dealer up the road and pick their favourite in the car park. Oldest (13) wants a Macan as a first car (!) whilst the middle 2 (10 and 6) both want 911s, one wants a white 930, the other wants a Python 992 They aren't badge snobs, though - if they were to pick a family car, then they would all love a new Kia Sorento!! So yes, in this household, there is no substitute.

For me the appeal is: usable / fast / practical / good value / family oriented. Not many sport cars that can combine the enjoyment and involvement of driving with taking family /skis /bikes and that you can actually use all year round. As a bonus, the historic and race associations further validate the machine. The below review of the 911 when it first came out in 1963 helps to confirm what held then pretty much holds today when it comes to the appeal of the 911. I think Porsche have been able to make the best of the 911's evolution and its so relevant as a sports car today as it was 70 years ago. https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a42620773/196...

I made a thread similar to this around the time I bought my Turbo S Cab. Criteria was not to be permanently in need of preventative maintenance, to not have to kept on a trickle charger if I left it standing for a month, able to use as and when I wanted and not be stuck in a garage over the weekend, not to be too delicate and not too 'in your face'. But at the same time be fast, relatively comfortable, still have some of the toys, seats for 2 small children in the back if needed... I was genuinely stumped with what else to buy. I think they're in a bit of a category of their own. Bordering on supercar, but not quite there.

A few? Been bloody loads down the years. It’s the amount of wins across all motorsport I find impressive. The most wins of any car. Rally, circuit doesn’t really matter it just wins.

Lots and lots of space .............

Just to add to the kids thing, our main car was in the menders for a few days after a super market battle. So the 911 was the main car, school runs, clubs, kids friends lifts etc... So if you are short, then it's a true 4 seater. I loved the Evora, but the rear seats aren't really useful in any way, and it's like a bunker back there... The 911 is a very airy cabin I find.

In no particular order: - The build quality - The motorsport successes - The size - The practicality - The way they drive - How you need to learn it to get the best from it There are other options at this price point but it always comes back to the 911 being head and shoulders above the rest.

996 turbo daily for last 3.5 years, 996 3.4 for the 3 years before that. I just love the feeling of solidity and confidence when driving it, even though it’s over 20 years old - feels planted and the steering is alive. Also the practicality - my 7 and 10 year olds still fit in the back, and I take them to school in it every morning - there is always complaint if we need to use my wife’s car instead! And I love the badge. It’s not flash. Can leave it anywhere. Rarely seems to inspire anger in others. It’s quite understated and non-flash IMO. Plus the history I’m used to older cars feeling fragile and nervous at some point, but these don’t. I don’t know if that has a lot to do with the fine tooth combs most indies apply to inspecting them, so they do get regular refreshes of suspension etc When the kids can’t fit anymore, it will be swapped for a 996GT3 hopefully