997-1 Turbo Modifications - Page 2 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

Dear Ph, Just acquired a 997 Turbo Tip S thingo and i would like to do a few things to it. It has been serviced by the good people at Paragon through its life and they do performance upgrade packages as i know do DMS - and i have inquired to both about their tuning packages. So i am kind of stuck because there doesn't seem to be a definitive answer as to what ultimately is better, and i am sure it is probably a mix of both/different options. For instance, I would like to lower the car (2" or a little less) but i would also still like to be able to use the sport function in the car to 'adjust the settings'. Would a simple spring change from H&R (or any other) be fine for the job rather than opting for a complete overhaul at many £££'s? The car will be used on tracks, but more of weekend toy than anything else. Tuning. It seems that many are capable of tuning and with simple remaps and exhaust get to 550+ BHP areas...but for any more will require more time/money/parts - the price varies a lot based on what seems like which exhaust to go for. I am sure there are many out there, as the normal note is a little placid. What is the best all round package i guess is my question when it comes to tuning and what have people feel is best for their own cars? Other aesthetic changes I am sure will follow, wheels etc... but for the moment just looking for any hints in the right direction re: handling, tuning, sound Thank you, and for your time, a picture And old and new

Big Raff said: Just like to say it looks fantastic.

Congratulations! I didn't think they did a 997.1 Turbo S though?! Oh dear... you mentioned DMS... that's guaranteed to make this thread a long one! For what it's worth, I would opt to go for a recognised Porsche specialist rather than a company that does everything, for any car. Bilstein offer the PSS9 kit which retains PASM. Centre of Gravity come highly recommended for both hardware and setup.

They didn't , he means a turbo with the tip gearbox which is misleadingly called tiptronic S Call 9 excellence for proper advice

hondansx said: Congratulations! I didn't think they did a 997.1 Turbo S though?! Oh dear... you mentioned DMS... that's guaranteed to make this thread a long one! For what it's worth, I would opt to go for a recognised Porsche specialist rather than a company that does everything, for any car. Bilstein offer the PSS9 kit which retains PASM. Centre of Gravity come highly recommended for both hardware and setup. The tip box is the S part - probably didn't need to mention it though. I thought that DMS would invariably cause a back n forth situation, though would rather it doesn't go that way. Thanks for the advice, would Paragon be considered a favourable specialist or Parr for that matter? Not wanting to name/shame/piss on or whatever anyone, just looking for previous experiences good or bad. Been in analog for so long i haven't caught up with the digital world

Congrats buddy, you should have told me you were buying from Virgin we could have gone down there with a bigger stick;) Gimme a shout on tuning;)

Congrats on the car, looks nice. You are making many of the same changes I've already made. Lowering the car, I used TechArt springs which lowered the car 15mm. I'd like to go lower but I'm worried about being able to get it over speed bumps. Car looks great now it's been lowered though. As for tuning, the results depend on how much you want to put in. You can get good results from an exhaust and remap although the turbos will get hot very quickly unless you upgrade the intercoolers. I did intercoolers, air filter, exhaust and remap and got excellent results. For the exhaust I chose Kline Innovation, has a great sound when the car hits 3 thousand revs. There are exhausts that have switchable valves to quieten things down but they will set you back a fair bit more. I personally like the more raw version of the 911 Turbo I now have. As for DMS, they don't seem to have a great following on here, most likely due to the nay Sayers having allegiances with other companies. I'll just say this, I am very satisfied with my car after going there. I've also had people from this site PM me telling me they also went there and are very happy with their cars. In fact in all the research I did before I never found any customer complain about the service they had. If you want to see some evidence of their results have a look on YouTube, DMS tuned Turbo S Vs various modified GTRs and a 700 hp GT2RS Regardless of whom you use, and which mods you decide on, congrats on the car, enjoy it and keep us updated on your progress. Edited by Isysman on Friday 22 August 04:53

TB993tt said: I'm no expert on turbo tuning but 5546rpm the ignition angle goes back to 0 deg advance this can only be the ecu trying to protect the engine. The MAF is peaking at 1508.2 so this would indicate that the engine was at max boost. I can only guess that the boost pressure will get wound back next as the inlet & exhaust gas temps are high. That looks a little worrying to me but not being a tuning expert I could be wrong and also missed something. Still I don't think I would be doing that to my car even though I don't fully understand all the data.

Matt Seabrook said: TB993tt said: I'm no expert on turbo tuning but 5546rpm the ignition angle goes back to 0 deg advance this can only be the ecu trying to protect the engine. The MAF is peaking at 1508.2 so this would indicate that the engine was at max boost. I can only guess that the boost pressure will get wound back next as the inlet & exhaust gas temps are high. That looks a little worrying to me but not being a tuning expert I could be wrong and also missed something. Still I don't think I would be doing that to my car even though I don't fully understand all the data. Never mind the fact the car is pulling timing, look at the fueling FFS - how much is being chucked in to save that engine

Sorry but i don't understand any of that table - am i supposed to be looking at the curser'd box of 3, or the line in red... I'll get my coat...

I just realised I posted the wrong data log, that was from a different tuner - here is the DMS one

Isysman said: As for DMS, they don't seem to have a great following on here, most likely due to the nay Sayers having allegiances with other companies. I'll just say this, I am very satisfied with my car after going there. I've also had people from this site PM me telling me they also went there and are very happy with their cars. In fact in all the research I did before I never found any customer complain about the service they had. Below is a snippet of data from me and a few others testing a DMS 997 turbo, you're now giving out tuning advice and the car below certainly went like stink, chirping its tyres on gearchanges up to ~100mph..... share your apparent expertise ? Edit, oops I posted the wrong pic, this is another (slightly better) tuner's efforts on a 997 turbo, the DMS one is below - note the DMS is at lower speed/load Edited by TB993tt on Friday 22 August 14:13

Can someone explain the data logs in plain lingo as I'm lost with it all.

Can someone explain what all that actually means ?

TB993tt said: I just realised I posted the wrong data log, that was from a different tuner - here is the DMS one Ignition timing after TDC. Oh dear that's really not happy. Do they really run at AFR of 10:1 or less? Seems a bit rich to me but I am more used to NA tuning and not a great deal of that either. Or is it mapped to just dump lots of fuel in to cool things down. Exhaust gas temps are only a little lower, air flow is lower indicating that its not got as much boost as long as the MAF is reading right. Inlet temps are a bit lower but not lots. All in all its not looking like a remap I would be happy with. I could be wrong though as I have said I don't know a great deal about mapping.

Here's some data taken at the same time from a properly tuned 997 GT2. Key points consistent advanced timing, AFRs about 12:1 and controlled IATs

benny 61 said: Can someone explain the data logs in plain lingo as I'm lost with it all. 1. Engine speed is easy its just the RPM. 2. Mass air flow is measured by the MAF sensor it is the amount of air going in to the engine and is affected by RPM, turbo boost, throttle openings, altitude etc. The higher the number the greater the mass of air going in to the engine. 3. Inlet air temp (IAT) is important for the safety of the engine too high a temp and turbos and engine let go. Its also very important to calculate the amount of fuel required as high temps are less dense and need less fuel. 4. Ignition timing is when the spark fires. The faster the engine turns (RPM) the more advance the engine need as the burn time for the fuel is shortened. Engine design ie N/A or forced induction also has a big effect on when the spark is fired. I must be honest I don't know the timing figures for a 911 turbo but if its getting down to very low numbers the ECU is trying to wind out timing to cool things down. 5. Vehicle speed is vehicle speed. 6. Lambda is the air fuel ratio. If things get too hot fuel can be added to cool things down. For a cat to work correctly at cruise you need lambda 1. You will get more power from a car when you run it richer ie less than lambda 1. If you run an engine too rich you will bore wash the engine ie the fuel will remove the oil film between the pistons and the bores. This is bad news for the engine. 7. Exhaust temps need to be kept in check as running to hot things will melt. Mapping an engine for longevity is tricky business as so much can go wrong. Mapping an engine for more power and not worrying about longevity is easy. Wind in more boost add more fuel and bingo one very rapid car BUT don't expect it to last.

TB993tt said: Here's some data taken at the same time from a properly tuned 997 GT2. Key points consistent advanced timing, AFRs about 12:1 and controlled IATs That looks so much better. I know where my money would be going.

Matt, great explanation thanks. Of course you are right that winding up the boost and throwing in lots of fuel will produce power but for maximum power running relatively lean (my latest high power P turbo engine can run near 13:1 at full load) will produce the most power however this "nirvana" requires very fine tuning and very effective heat control (the leanesss obviously can create even more heat) from intercoolers, rads and variably controlled boost level with every aspect of the motor working together.

Just so that people can understand how long 20 deg advance before TDC is at 6000 rpm in real terms it's lest than 3ms (3/1000 of a second) so that means 3/1000 of a second to build enough pressed to ignite the fuel and push the pistons back down the bore again before the pistons get to top dead centre.

Very interesting info, thanks for that but it's a bit scary.

TB993tt said: Below is a snippet of data from me and a few others testing a DMS 997 turbo, you're now giving out tuning advice and the car below certainly went like stink, chirping its tyres on gearchanges up to ~100mph..... share your apparent expertise ? Edit, oops I posted the wrong pic, this is another (slightly better) tuner's efforts on a 997 turbo, the DMS one is below - note the DMS is at lower speed/load Edited by TB993tt on Friday 22 August 14:13 I haven't given out any tuning advice, I simply said I am a satisfied customer. I don't need to be an expert to have received a good service from a company and commented on it on an open forum. People refer items they use all the time, wether it be a phone or a computer or a car etc. they don't need to be an expert in that feield to do that. I have never stated nor implied that I am an expert in this field. You seem to have your own set of rules as to who can say what on Pistonheads (luckily I don't have to follow them.) I'm interested to know how you think the OP should proceed, what should he do? Because all you've said is things to put him off one company, you haven't actually recommended another. Try to stay focused on the thread, and not your dislike for DMS. Edited by Isysman on Friday 22 August 21:51

I had H&R 20mm lowering springs on my turbo. great setup not too harsh at all

TB993tt said: Matt, great explanation thanks. Of course you are right that winding up the boost and throwing in lots of fuel will produce power but for maximum power running relatively lean (my latest high power P turbo engine can run near 13:1 at full load) will produce the most power however this "nirvana" requires very fine tuning and very effective heat control (the leanesss obviously can create even more heat) from intercoolers, rads and variably controlled boost level with every aspect of the motor working together. That makes senses as the N/A engines I have been involved in the mapping of been at 12.5-13:1 for max power. I don't know much about boosted engines and getting the best out of them but have had fun playing with small NA engines and getting the best part of 145bhp per litre out of them. Thanks for the insight in to Porsche turbo engines. I love the technical aspect of the engineering of all things automotive. Edited by Matt Seabrook on Tuesday 26th August 18:42

Little update for those interested, After contacting many different companies and doing some research as well as asking around I ended up going with PARR. I ended up going for the (i guess) stage 1 package that they offer. First the suspension was dropped on the H&R springs, the 20mm really makes a difference and not harsh at all. With that i went with a fast road set up and balancing etc...Then the loud stuff, opted for the Cargraphic ETS system which sounds lovely, re-map and filter package. They don't have a rolling road for 4wd but the gains are quite nice. Traction control has a hard time with the hammer down. I have to say that the whole operation although not cheap has transformed the car into a bit of a brute, which is what i think it should have been all along. The sound is just right, and really opens up after 3k, but the drone is not far from the original while pootling along. Even the fact that i was rear-ended in traffic hasn't wiped the smile off my face. New bumper, light and some panel work to follow to fix damage, but until it goes in I will enjoy. Thanks to all the advice on here, I think I have made the right choice, at the very least found a very polite and friendly outfit in Parr. Their garage is not bad either...the one on the left was involved in Le Mans this year and won its division (Le Mans had a Porsche Cup group i am lead to believe)

Congrats Parr are a top notch outfit and you cannot go wrong with them. They can send your OEM turbos to RS tuning to modify them and they give you back a car with 624 PS. I've driven their demonstrator with this mod and its blooming fantastic! Good decision even though it may have cost a few more quid.