9ff Cayman Kit-2 Update

Last October I installed the first 9ff Kit-2 on my Cayman . This kit consisted of a large 70 mm exhaust, removal of the Porsche air box and a 9ff reflash of the ECU. Many of you saw and heard it at the Croctoberfest where we put it on the Mustang 4 dyno at Imagine Auto. This version was a disapointment in that it was way too loud, did not produce as much rear wheel horsepower as MillTek + GIAC and triggered a ECU error code P0444. Following that install the other 10 9ff Kit-2 purchasers promptly canceled their orders and 9ff terminated its relationship with Eurocar, the only US 9ff dealer. I was contacted by Jan Fatthauer, the 9ff owner, and asked to deal directly with him in Germany. That would have been a very good way to perfect their performance kit for the Cayman , working directly with the factory to finally get it right. Unfortunately, communication has been very poor as 9ff is a small company with a lot of projects. Jan did send over a revised exhaust which has a very clever vacuum/electric switch that operated a bypass valve allowing the exhaust to completely bypass the muffler. If the exhaust gases are sent through the muffler the sound is still to loud with unpleasant resonances at normal driving speeds. However, the good part is the straight exhaust, bypassing the mufflers entirely, though a little louder at idle, has a great sound, not too loud, and no resonances. I like this new exhaust, and it seems to have more power (only butt dyno so far, but I do plan on putting it on a Mustang 4 sometime soon). My biggest problem remains the ECU error code which won't go away (P0444 = "canister purge valve, open circuit of no signal"), and that 9ff fails to communicate with me at all. I am perfectly willing to work with 9ff to finally get this right using my car. If 9ff is reading this, I invite them to return my e-mails and help me work this out. I think they may eventually have a good product, but they should not abandon a paying customer if they expect to have more customers. If they do get back to me, I will follow up on what we are doing. In any event, I will provide performance figures for both switch positions. 9ff was not aware that the US versions have different ECU firmware that includes purging the charcoal canister. If 9ff does not assist me with the ECU error codes, at the least I may have to get my ECU reflashed by GIAC, but even that may not work without the MAF sensor and Porsche air box, which 9ff removed. However, I do have another year before having an emissions test, which my Cayman will fail. Hopefully, 9ff will rise to the occasion and help me work this out during the next year. If they do not, I would strongly recommend against anyone doing any 9ff modification if they are not willing to stand behind their products and help fix any problems that their installation created. After all you payed good money for something that should enhance your car, not to be abandoned with a lot of headaches. I'm hoping that 9ff does help me work this out and I will report all of the progress. If they do finish the job of fixing mine, 9ff will have a good system.

Bummer, hope everything will work out for you in the end. 9ff should back up their products and customers (as should every other tuner or company for that matter) !

Just my opinion..... If I were the owner of 9ff....and you bad mouthed my product enough to have the first 10 initial orders to cancel on me....I wouldn't be all that motivated to help you out either. Don't get me wrong, I know nothing of 9ff and have never done business with them, so I don't know if they are really that bad. BUT if I were "manufacturing" AND distributing somehting like a cat-back-system...I'm pretty sure I would be able to replace any unhappy first gen systems with upgraded new systems when available and STILL turn a profit! But since the first person who was unhappy with it, went public with their unsatisfactory review, and now funding for the project is non-existant (cancelled orders) I doubt 9ff will further go out of pocket to further this project much. Like you said, they have many "other" projects they are working on. I don't know how much you spent on the system, but it was kind of a gamble to go with it in the first place. There are plenty of systems that have been tested and results posted, everywhere. Like I said...this is just my opinion. I don't know if you ever looked at the situation in this perspective. * Even in your latest post, you threaten him with loss of repeat business. What repeat business? You already made everyone cancel their orders! I don't know. That's how I would react to the situation if I were 9ff.

TresX, First let me say that I have restrained any comment on 9ff for 7 months since the installation hoping that they would live up to their promises to me. 9ff is a Cayman Club Sponsor, I expected more from them. Second let me underscore the fact that I had nothing whatsoever to do with the 10 canceled kits. They were canceled long before I said a word about 9ff, in fact, I did not even know until Emeka of Eurocar, the 9ff distributor in the US, told me they had been cancelled and personally criticized 9ff for not responding to him either nor returning the deposit he sent them for those 10 kits. Some of the people who had ordered the 9ff kits were at the Croctoberfest last October in Kansas City and witnessed for themselves the noise and lack of advertised power of this kit compared with other, less expensive, altenatives. They made up their own minds. Finally, it was K-Man S, not me, who wrote a report in this Forum on the 9ff kit, describing it as "not yet ready". However, this is not the issue at all. The issue here that I have waited patiently for 9ff to work with me to get my system, the first US installation, right. I was sent a note from the 9ff owner saying that he would work directly with me to fix the problems now that Eurocar no longer represented 9ff and that he would send me a new correctly programmed ECU (US version). While 9ff did send over a new exhaust, for which I am most appreciative, it also did not fit, requiring modification (flattening the exhaust pipes and dimpling the mufflers to clear structural parts), they never sent a new ECU or offered to reprogram my original one. In fact, they never even addressed the error code problem, other than to say they "didn't realize that US cars were different" and they no longer respond to my inquiries (I have called Germany several times and while the 9ff people are very nice I am always told that this is the owners personal project and he does not respond). I don't mind waiting, and I do want to work with them to perfect the 9ff system, but 7 months is too long. I did not begin to criticize 9ff until all communication ceased. How would you feel with a $75,000 car on which you have spent $9000 for the kit, $2500 for two separate installations (extra labor costs because the parts did not fit and had to be modified). 9ff sent over an engineer who cut out the original Porsche air box and MAF sensor with a Sawzall, installing a modified ECU only to be told later by the 9ff owner, after describing the ECU error code, that he "didn't realize that US cars were different". One would think that a reputable company would work with a customer who bought a system widely advertized in the US that was delivered with a fatal flaw, perhaps due to differences with the US cars for which they were promoted. That is the only reason I am down on 9ff. I have been very restrained from any criticism of 9ff until now, but patience does have its limits. 9ff is a small company with many other concerns, but my problems apparently do not rank high enough for them to address. How would you feel if you were in my shoes? I will happily change my opinion, and glowingly report it in this Forum, the day I receive any message whatsoever from 9ff acknowledging that problems still exist and offering to work with my car to try make it right. If that does not happen, I may be stuck with purchase of new Porsche intake parts, and a new ECU, just to pass the emissions tests. My Porsche dealer will not even look at my car or address these problems until it is stock again. TreX ... how would you feel? I would like nothing better than to work with 9ff, a Cayman Club Sponsor, and I continue to welcome any input from them. I think the 9ff kit-2 does have good promise, and I like its sound in the straight mode. I encourage all potentially interested Cayman owners to inquire at [email removed] . Maybe collectively we can get 9ff to work on it again. I think their Kit-2 will eventually set a new standard of aftermarket performance modifications (9ff IS a performance company, recently setting a new "street legal" speed record in their 9ff modified Porsche turbo) and renewed interest in Cayman products might just help me too with this problem since they can still use my car to work out the remaining ECU problem which I cannot address myself without their help. Once the ECU problem is fixed I will like their system, and will tell them so in a Forum Report.

fafnir, If my camera can focus close enough (I don't have a lift) I will post pictures of the bypass valves. The exhaust itself is 70 mm, substantially larger in diameter than most (which are 60 mm). I am yet to dyno in the straight mode, but it feels faster and sounds nicer, so I think it, infact, may be producing 40+ HP at the crank. The original installation produced 30 more HP at the wheels on a Mustang 4 (Stock Cayman produce about 265 HP at the rear wheels, mine produced 295 at the rear wheels with the 9ff Kit-2).

TresX, There has also been a lot of conversation behind the scenes that you are unawareof TresX so I wouldn't jump to the conclusions you did, they are in error. We have also contacted 9ff on articsilver's behalf and requested that they make good on their kit or else their sponsorship will be removed. We are currently waiting on a reply, but in my opinion that reply is long long long overdue. We are just trying to be as fair as possible to them.

Charles, Ken gave us an update to your situation some time ago and I must say, you have shown REMARKABLE restraint. I hope things work out for you.

I am one of the 10 who canceled their order for the 9ff system. It was certainly not Charles (arcticsilver) who changed my mind. I read the reviews after Croctoberfest last year and got concerned. I contacted Charles by PM and he remained optimistic of 9ff's commitment to fixing the problem but I canceled my order until Charles' car was fixed. As time went by, I decided to go elsewhere. I now have the Milltek exhaust and headers, EVO filter and B&M short shifter and could not be happier. I remain grateful to the Cayman Club for the quick feed back on the 9ff system but its also the Cayman Club that lead me (and Charles) to think of modifications in the first place. Charles has been snake bit. I hope that the Cayman Club will continue its efforts to get him some help.

I have an appointment for next Tuesday to dyno test my new 9ff exhaust on a Mustang dyno at Midcoast Performance here in St. Louis. I have the original numbers with the old 9ff exhaust run on a Mustang dyno at Imagine Auto in KC. As it was done on a different dyno, with different conditions, it may be hard to resolve small differences between the two exhaust versions with mufflers (through the mufflers they look identicle), but it will be interesting to see how the straight exhaust compares with that routed through the mufflers. As I mentioned, I like the sound of the straight pipes better ... no resonances. I may end up cutting off the 9ff mufflers and replacing them with something quieter since I (hopefully) will have the power when the switch setting is in the straight position. Quiet will be nice when power is only a switch click away. I have figured a way to lift the rear of my Cayman so I can get pictures of the bypass system and I will post those along with the dyno results. As far as the ECU and error codes are concerned, I may have to do an Evo intake, replace the MAF sensor and do a GIAC flash to finally fix that, but I have a year before emission tests are needed.

I just put my Cayman with the new 9ff exhaust on the Mustang dyno at MidCoast Performance in St. Charles, MO. Very disappointing! The original 9ff exhaust dynoed at 295 rear wheel HP at Imagine Auto, KC last October. This was a different Mustang dyno and both the temperature and humidity are higher now. Even so, the first two runs indicated 269 peak HP, 224 ft-lb torque, with the mufflers bypassed and 268 HP, 220 ft-lbs torque, through the mufflers. The second two runs were even worse: 260 HP, 213 ft-lbs bypassed and 273 HP, 223 ft-lbs, through the mufflers. While these are quite variable, it is clear that 1) Bypassing the mufflers doesn't give more power and 2) There is even less power now than with the original 9ff muffler (although dikfferent dynos, different conditions, might make that less certain, the difference is significant). This, with the ECU error code which I can't clear, makes me wish I had never purchased from 9ff. Discussing the situation with two different several shops (Sharkwerks and a shop contacted by Reid Vann), both commented, without my asking, of others who had similar experiences with 911 turbos modified by 9ff (all kinds of problems that the company refused to address) with labels of "shoddy work" and "unresponsive" always coming up. I have to agree. It looks like I will be going back to stock to get the ECU right, then may consider some other mod, like MillTek/GIAC. Sorry for the bad news about 9ff.

Again, sorry you had this crappy 9ff experience. All I can do is make a mental note not ever to buy 9ff products (and I was interested in them, as I saw they were one of the few tuners that were offering a lsd) ! If everyone does the same it will force them out of business or to clean up their act !

How much did all this cost you? Perhaps you should sue. If they remain silent you can win by default and seize any assets they come into the country under certain conditions.

The original cost was $8400. I also paid $550 for 1/2 for the air freight to the US, $1500 for the 1st install (three times as much labor since it didn't fit without real-time, trial-and-error modification), $1000 + for the second install (still didn't fit). To diagnose the ECU error code, I have to go back to stock. I have to buy another Porsche intake box (or EVO or equvialent), buy another MAF sensor and reflash the ECU back to stock just to begin to track down the problem. The code indicates a missing or disconnected purge valve, so maybe I need that too. The problem is the 9ff engineer cut a lot of wires in the intake area without Reid Vann knowing what was done. 9ff no longer responds (the same story I heard from Alex at Sharkwerks about 9ff turbo modifications). It would be nice if I could get a judgement against 9ff in a US court without it costing me another arm and leg. However, enforcing any such judgement would be problematic. It might put 9ff on notice, but whether it would do any good in my case is pretty iffy.

What a nightmare! I had been looking at their products but now, 9ff can f itself out of business.

9ff articsilver - Almost a year ago the 9ff Cayman S upgrade was on my to-do list, it has long been taken OFF that list after hearing of your experience in KC at the 1st annual Croctoberfest. We all feel your pain. zornet :burnout:

Maybe file a better business bureau complaint.

I have now removed the 9ff intake side. I did not like the fact that the MAF sensor was removed by 9ff and the fuel/air ratio was all over the map when I dyno tested it. In order to replace the Porsche air box, cut out by 9ff, I had to drop the engine. I got a GIAC ECU flash and an EVO intake. Now it runs smoother with no "check engine" light. The downside was the $4800 additional cost for the parts and the two days to drop and replace the engine, but it now runs as it should. I think 9ff could be a good company, maybe even on the cutting edge of development, but it needs to have a local representative or a working relationship with some US installer. 9ff also needs to be more responsible and responsive to its customers. For the first US customer, a good company would have sent over an engineer to supervise the installation (which 9ff did), but then follow up all the problems that the first installation of this type created (which 9ff didn't do). For a botched installation that cost me $20K, a good company would cover my costs and work with me to get it right. 9ff has not even offered to reimburse me the original $8400 cost of the kit much less the $11,000 for the three installations (2 9ff nstallations and one 9ff removal). As I mentioned in my previous posts, I would have been happy to work with 9ff in order to perfect this kit for the US market. I got no response from 9ff at all after making this suggestion to them several times. To their credit they did supply a new exhaust complete with a muffler bypass vane. It, however, has some development problems that I could have helped them work out using my car, but you can't work with a non-responsive company. It should be noted that the cost of this disaster is almost what a 3.8 transplant would have been. If only I had known ...

arcticsilver, Glad to hear you are at least back on the road running properly, even it if was at a significant $$$ cost to you, at least you can enjoy the car again. You might see if the 9ff equipment will fetch $20K on Ebay, maybe some lucky bidder can take over your nightmare. I concur with others that at the very least you may want to engage an attorney to send a demand letter to 9ff to see what reaction (if any) you get.

Having first hand knowledge of Charles' (articsilver) reprehensible treatment by 9ff which, IMHO, displays not just gross incompetence by 9ff, but rudeness, arrogance & a total disregard of business ethics, I am puzzled why 9ff is still listed as a site sponsor. After all that has been posted, and 9ff's total disregard of the site admin's commendable efforts to get 9ff to exhibit some responsibility, I was saddened to see a 9ff banner ad today. Please tell me it was an oversight & this site is not still promoting a company that ripped off a CC member & continues to advertise for new victims.

9ff was given a timeframe in which to respond or their banner ad would be yanked, that timeframe has not expired as of yet but will shortly if they don't respond. As an attorney I'm sure you can appreciate affording them the opportunity to make good before yanking their advertisement.

Maybe CC can give some of the 9ff sponsorship money to articsilver to offset his loss, or to finance a lawsuit against 9ff...Okay I know the sponsorship money is likely too insignificant comparing to articsilver's loss but...Just a wild thought.

We've actually given him a lot of support in other ways than direct cash$, and in ways that have saved him some $. Besides what they paid last year for the lowest level sponsorship was a pittance after the banks took their cut of an international check from europe.

Charles, sorry to hear about your troubles with 9ff. I hope you can get some sort of agreeable resolution. I understand that you have been MORE than patient and fair. There was always something about 9ff when they first came on the scene here that gave me a weird, uneasy feeling. Just a feeling. But they just felt dodgey none the less. I was even excited about going their route for a while when I had the CS. I guess there was something of substance behind that aura... Good luck Charles.