One for the turbo boys - Page 3 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

If there is room ahead and someone wishes to pass I move over so unfortunately I am unable to answer. Very interesting question though. DAZ

I remember the first time I saw a 993TT on the M25 giving it some. He was sat parallel next to me in the outside lane at 70mph. The guy obviously put it in third and mashed the hammer, as this thing just took off. The acceleration was astounding. It almost looked as if the car stretched, just like the USS Enterprise. Deeply impressive party trick. (After talking to other enthusiasts about the various merits of TT v RS scenarios, one guy summed it all up quite well I thought; the RS is a nice sports car, but the TT is a true supercar, due to the vast differential in acceleration. Can't argue with that really).

RR, are you at Brunters on sunday? DAZ

No. I'd absolutely love to come along though. Unfortunately it seems all my mates are getting hitched this year! Bloody inconvenient of them. It does limit your number of 'wing men' when out on the town, doesn't it.

I would I'd say the RS is a nice road going race car, whilst the TT is a nice road going luxury supercar. After all, acceleration in itself doesn't just make a 'supercar'... which is why Bolt on Boy's 2.0 Calibra Turbo powered Nova (0-60 in 5.5 secs) is no supercar compared to a Ferrari 512 Berlinetta Boxer (7.2 secs according to this website www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.mv?file=car.mv#=158 ). Until you have driven both cars RR, you should keep your mind open. As superb as the TT is, it doesn't have the raw edge and spark of adrenalin tinged excitement that an RS can create in an instant... Don't ask the people in the pub, go out and drive the damn things That's why Ninja took the afternoon off to snoop around a Lamborghini showroom. You gotta admire a guy who bunks off work for that

I have just bought a 993 C4 (non turbo) but had a 420 bhp Skyline R34 before that which was as quick as a Twin Turbo 911, but my car was in a mild state of tune relative to some of the other ones in NE Scotland that I knew which were outrageously fast with true 600 and 730 bhp! The Skyline when properly mapped and modified is the one car that will humble any of the supercars. I enjoyed mine but it was too tempying to keep upping power by major increments (and now that my sons are grown up, I wanted back to a 911 as this is my 4th after a 17 year absence).

But the Ninja is his own boss!

Dom, your speaking out your RS again Turbo's are about torque (acceleration), RS's are about lateral G I would never bother trying to out corner an RS, nor would I expect to loose a drag race. Somewhere in the middle their paths cross Personally, I find it much more satisfying (and sensible) to be able to have fun in a straight line (at about 3000 rpm, in every gear), rather than cornering on the limit. How many turbo owners have disturbed the badger population recently? Don't need to risk it, you see Now it's exactly the reason above why, well to-do educated types, like myself, prefer a turbo, and pykie-lhd toe-rags like Dom prefer RS's Chalk and cheese (smelly french stuff) If you really care about 0.000001 of a second (or badger bating) get the RS. If you like distorting the torque-time-continuum strap a great big KKK to your intake RR, I hope this helps...

Uv....I hear your points but why would you never try to out corner an RS ?? I realise you are 2wd mode so your advantage on the straights is much more apparent than on the twisties. With respect to 993 & 996 TT...I feel they will corner as quickly (quicker) as an RS but not give that impression.Both TT are about how/did (?) that happen,,,the RS is about feel!

Howdy Paulus, I think in practice, any of the uber Audis or Benz viggens would give a fright to the TTs ito straight line urgency. (As will the 2004 M5.) Sort of related, EVO's latest shocking comparison pitched the much loathed Cayenne (Turbo) on some twisting road against the relatively lithe RS6 and the findings were seemingly against the laws of physics... Indeed, the 'shed' did ok against a new EVO VIII round a track, too. So 'the game' has moved on to the point where the standard rules of traditional (i.e. 308GTB versus Marina 1.3 Coupe) supercar engagement don't apply as readily. If you were ambling along in your then all-conquering 993TT in 1995, even the sight (and sound!) of an errant F355 could've been overcome with little more than mild right ankle twitchery and probably no recourse to drop-cog...the executive classes were entirely cannon fodder to be picked off with impunity. But not eight years on... A plethora of exceedingly hot saloons has made dominant life in the fast lane very much a case of watching the gear changes and ensuring fluffs 'r' hopefully not us...get it wrong against a smooth-shifting CL65 AMG - even in Ferdy's latest range toppers - and you will be very much a casualty of autobahn war. Frankly, even if you DO get it all Plato perfect, you'll need at least 550 of the most well trained Viennese thoroughbreds at your command to triumph in such tussles. In truth, the twisties are a different matter but, I suspect, more for the very experienced driver anyway. What has been said about the Skylines is quite correct; these are the most lethal useable road weapons given sufficient boost: even a 'mere' 600 bhp GTR-V Spec has few, if any predators. So Paul, whilst the TT is still in the top echelon of schnellhausen lane thuggerists, the rear view mirror now IS relevant. The only way to make it thoroughly redundant once more, is to speak to a chap called Uwe... Chin, chin.

UV, that was a superb post - very helpful, if a little technical at times.

De, It's damn irritating that the supremacy of the TT even comes into question these days. It's just not on. It seems you have to be a member of the 500 club just to keep above the water. Did you notice on the 'front page' of PH, there is a 500bhp Seat coming out. A bloody SEAT!! WTF?!! That is a depressing thought. I wonder how far Porsche is prepared to go to ward off these commoners? They had better instal 600 ponies or it'll be an utter waste of time wheeling it out of the factory doors. I really hope they don't rely on the overpriced boxter GT to wave the flag for our struggling TT. If the 997TT is to be of questionable poke, then a cheap 996TT and 8k in G-Forces's hand will see 550 reasons not to bother with it.

Domster, I AM TOTALLY open minded about the RS v TT situation. I would actually love both. Trouble is, I've just finished reading an article comparing the GT2 and TT, both pushing out 550 big ones. It really get's me thinking about the need for absolute power. If you really wanted to, then I guess the addition of a caterfield or xtr2, for about 10k, would compliment the TT nicely. Thus removing the RS from the equation all together. That would be a fine garage wouldn't it. It does seem power corrupts. Even reading juicy road tests about it too! Btw, I think your wrong about acceleration not being a fundamental requirement of a supercar. The elise is a fine sports car around the corners, just like the RS, but as every Top Trump player knows the elise is no supercar. For me a supercar has to have all bases covered: massive acceleration, cornering prowess, fine interior, sexy shape, exclusivity - which can only be brought about by high price, plus it must sound good. Lot's of fine sports cars cover some of those areas, but only those that have it all will attain supercar status. Therefore, I stick my neck out and state: the 911 Turbo is a true supercar, whilst The RS is one of the worlds greatest sportscars. >> Edited by Roadrunner on Saturday 26th April 11:17

You're sort of bang on the money there, Paul. I remember when I first ventured out in the 993TT and continually bouncing off the rev limiter at just under 7000 - very, very annoying - especially when fending off some pesky try it on merchant or other. Despite this, I recall a latenight, rainswept surge against a 996 Carrera being a satisfying first escapade... Later on, though, it became apparent that against the army of increasingly hostile performance cars that jostle for traffic light supremacy, 408 bhp just wasn't in the 'nuke 'em high' zone any more... I've said many times on PH that the memory of the Cerbera 4.5's explosive forays above 140 lingers heavily in my subconscious - that was and still is one helluva monster, a genuine beast amongst cars ubiquitously titled so. And yet with the current set-up, having got used to the additional 20% power hike, you do feel invincible on the straights...having heard about the G-Force 996TT mod putting out 550 bhp, though, maybe it is time to move on? For me personally, I think any future uber pork progress would probably lie via the GTR600 set-up from Gemballa...hopefully just treading the fine line between plain daft thrust and some driver adjustability/feel. And traction retention, too! The GTR750 EVO is too insane and anyway, one could spend the difference on psychiatric help.

Yep, that 750 evo must be right on the limit. Almost venturing near to the realms of TVR style ownership I expect. I agree that 600 has a nice ring to it. Best to keep on the safe side too.

Wasn't it you, Paul (or the fringemeister central himself, Shubert von Domster), who told me about some deranged Israeli bloke who had an 1100 bhp 911? Still, if you watch the last Clarkson video, he pilots a 1000 bhp Skyline which seems to have been both reliable & driveable. Guess it's all down to how the power is delivered/transmitted plus the effect of lag. Call me a wuss but if 600bhp isn't enough then perhaps a change of obsession is needed!

Exactly! I've been looking into high end hi-fi recently, if you want a new obsession. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll enlighten you to the joys of Mark Levinson and Krell. I imagine you'd be luck to see 30mpg when toting 600 gee gee's too. I expect 5 might be nearer the mark, unfortunately. There's a line in the sand somewhere between 500 and 600, unless your an Arab. Yep, that was me with the 1100 tale. That was from 9M btw.

LOL, good points from all once again - but there are two fundamental things I would like to reiterate as they are in danger of being lost: 1) Acceleration does not in itself make a supercar (IMHO) and vice versa. Would you not consider the Ferrari 512 BB a supercar, just because it can reach 187 mph but struggles to 60? You must look at the overall package and the 'je ne sais quois'... the 993 Turbo always sufferred from journalists saying 'ah, but it isn't a proper supercar' when they lined it up against Ferrari 456s and Jag XJ220s, even though it whipped plenty 'supercar' hides! This is a tad unfair, as although the 993tt didn't have that traditional supercar drama to look at (ie it resembled the beetle buggies coming out of Stutt for the previous 35 years) I would give it membership as the 911 is a classic design (like Dualit Toasters - an analogy for Nightmare ) and had all round humbling performance. 2) 993RSs are all about feel, and for me, it is the visceral side of things that tweak my glands and nodes into recognising supercardom. That can include a massive dollop of acceleration to stimulate the adrenal gland, but may just be something else... for example, I drove a BMW M1 and with 286bhp it is no rocket ship compared to modern day stuff... but what a car! Truest supercar I think I've driven so far - certainly more so than a Ferrari 355. Maybe it was just those black slats on the rear canopy that did it... Or the sound it made As UV says, the RSs are made for corners and that is where the thrills and spills are to be had. Maybe I place too much importance on what I have seen on the track... At Goodwood, I have seen an XJ220 lapping and it looked like a Nova would eat it up and spit it out! Not much drama at all. Not quick, sounded rubbish, rolled too much. It went down in my estimation whilst it went up on the wall as an Athena poster in teenage boys bedrooms. Saw a Lotus Carlton go around Donington, which had the four wheel supercar tag. Crap. Why I bought one I'll never know And then a few months ago I saw a very useful driver spank the RS off a 993RS around Goodwood. Jeez - that was an aggressive and awesome machine in action. You almost felt pity for the Diablo lapping simultaneously... So, maybe it is supercars for the king's road, and 'sports cars' for the race track. (I wouldn't call it a sports car as my mind thinks of Mazda MX5s and MGFs! - prefer road going track car or semi race car). If that means I am a pikey who prefers crumbling tarmac on forgotten airfields to the King's Rd, then so be it - at least that fits in with UV's analogy However, all that flashiness and obsession with top speeds and infinitessinal power outputs went out of the window with my Top Trumps and Countach duvet cover set. Last year. And since then, when I realised that a 180mph Lotus Carlton was a bit of an imposter and cost me a fortune to run; when I drove a 355 and was impressed by the build more than the acceleration; when I experienced big HP 911 Turbos and found thema bit dull; I have been looking for something else. I don't want to lose teh acceleration or the top speed as some of me is still clinging to the Countach duvet cover. But I need to live with my supercar and take it on track without fear of humiliation. I am off to Spain today, so this will be my last post for a few days at least. I look forward to this thread having wandered off into the realm of top trumps when I return PS DAZ and sb930 will still be keeping an eye on you, and I'm sure the RS posse will defend the realm on my behalf if necessary >> Edited by domster (moderator) on Saturday 26th April 12:04

Thanks, Paul: I knew it was from someone quite unstable . Btw, Mark Levinson does the system in my barge and jolly nice it is too. But electronics like Krell's legendary KSA-200 power amp, mated to some obscenely revealing Apoggee Scintalla ribbon speakers and the days of fantasising over tri-amping with tens of thousands of pounds worth of mono-bloc, outrageously heat-sinked industrial aesthetics are thankfully well behind me. I no longer possess the requisite facial hair nor questionable woolly sweater. And I have never been a fan of slightly warm, vaguely fermented moonshine. Stick to the jelly moulds; far, far more rewarding.

Domster - the saliency of your RS commentary is seminal - but please, the Kings Road jibe is too harsh. There is for me, an inherent quality in the megadom of high speed canonballing; your Ultima is as likely to thrill you at some insane lick down the Mulsanne Straight as it is cresting the brows at Oulton Park. Unless, of course, you genuinely do prefer pure 'lateral exploits' all the time? Don't get me wrong, fifteen minutes round Hethel with Gandalf Kershaw in a Sport 190 is enough to make the most dedicated motoring heretic wet themselves with unrestrained glee - but that is a fundamentally different thrill to the full bore, anvil down, Battlestar Galactica slinghottery of, say, Ultiamaic straightlinism. Oh bollocks, nobody will ever convince you! Horses for bleedin' courses, right Guv?

Well three of my collection of cars are particularly relevent, so I guess I can jump 'into the fray'. I have a 993RS. It is a beautiful classic Porsche, with awesome brakes, handling and sublime rawness. It is quick in a fluid way, rather than a sheer power way. This is my 'track' car. www.imgmag.org/images/guyratcliffe/993xRSxSmall.jpg I also have a Skyline GTR R34 which has had more money spent on the engine alone than the RS cost to purchase. It runs approximately 700bhp, on medium boost, through a massive single turbo. It also has 295/35/18 tyres front and rear and 10-pot brakes, so it can corner and stop reasonably well. It is my 'fast road' car. www.imgmag.org/images/guyratcliffe/BonnetxOpenxR34xSmall.jpg www.imgmag.org/images/guyratcliffe/FrontxxR34xSmall.jpg Another car of mine is an an all-out street-drag Skyline R32 GTR. This car is fully lightened (plastic windows, no abs, heater etc). It runs two massive turbos and has proven 950+bhp at the engine (it ran 831bhp at wheels with a mis-fire). This car has virtually locked drag diffs and a 6 speed clutchless sequential dogbox. It has run a quarter-mile in 9.6 seconds at over 150mph. Estimates for 0-60mph and 0-100mph are circa 2 seconds and 4 seconds respectively. This car is insane, it makes no boost until 6000rpm, then hits with circa 1000bhp. www.imgmag.org/images/guyratcliffe/R32xBonnetxOpen.jpg Guy

De, Don't even mention the ML in the lexus. What a bloody scam. That's just a very unfortunate piece of badge engineering I'm afraid, after the man himself departed the company. Not the stuff 390S dreams are made of. (944 with tartan trim). Mmm, woolly jumper and pipe, me thinks not. More a boss t and a toke kinda guy really. Anyway, now that Dom has left the building... What IS he on?

Guy, a very impressive toy box there. So, on reflection, what's your fave all round car. Let's say you have to keep only one. Throw us mere mortals a bone...

UV mentioned this, not me. I was merely using his scurrilous commentary against him I know you would rather run over Tamora Palmer Tompkinson in a fit of Northern pique than show off to her He called me a pikey for gawd's sake, when a dog on a bit of string is hardly the training one requires for penning a Bentley brochure

Dom is one of those hugely appealing and all too rare geezers wot is OD'd on life itself - and more power to his elbow and all who sail in him - Gawd bless 'im! Btw, Paul - sorry but I has to disagree, bud; the stez in mein Lexun is utterly fabulous - no, it really is. Not loud as in 'easy now, fanx' but possessing of a degree of genuine imaging capability. I've heard minutiae from umpteen favourite recordings that have previously not stood out (John Paul Jones' hypnotic bass line from Led Zep's balls out special, Communication Breakdown, on the Remasters CD is a good example of 'bloody hell - that sounds hugely different' [in a good way!]) Anyway, you should be far more sensitive to my inferiority complex about the barge, since it's blindingly obvious I should've had an M5! Bling, bling.

P.S Where HAVE you been all this time Guy? I want to hear some tales of utter automotive domination from you imminently! You simply must go along to the Brunters meet and humble ALL! It's your duty for God's sake! Don't be shy now...

GuyR - holy sh1t - INCREDIBLE! We need to hear from your good self a bit more, methinks. Stunning stuff, truly fabulous kit. I'm stunned.

I'm going tommorrow, but only I'm taking the 993RS. A better place is Elvington in Yorkshire, it's flatter, longer and much cheaper to hire. I went with some mates in GTRs and my friends R33 GTR did 209mph at the 1.5mile marker (certified timing beam). Braking from 209mph to standstill in 0.5miles is a bit hairy though. To be honest there's no fun to be had with many other cars, so those of us with 600+ bhp GTRs prefer to race motorbikes and give them a little surprise. It's surprising how bike acceleration tails off above 150mph............... I have done 200mph in the R34 with 3 adults and a bootful of luggage on the autobahn, so it's quite practical, although not as reliable as the Porker........ Guy

Quite. (Looking for rock to crawl back under)

There are some pictures and story of a trip of 6 Skylines to the Nurburgring 24 hr race last year on a mate of mines site: www.blowdog.com/html/events/nurburgring_310502.html My car has evolved significantly since that trip. It only had 672bhp then and I was finding the acceleration above 180mph to be a little inadequate........ Guy

LOL You are indeed a nutcase Guy. I think you have made a few friends here already Seeing off superbikes... I have been to Elvington myself - the nice thing is it has a decent air museum, so you can wander around there and get a chip butty if a piston goes into orbit on your first run. Bit bumpy some of those airfields though... maybe less of an issue with airplane rubber... Cheers Domster

Question to all: How do you all view these Skylines? Would you trade your 911 for one? Personally, I respect what they can achieve a great deal. As a total package though, I'd still go for the 'lesser' (!)911TT. Outrageous performance is good, but I'd also like the sexy shape and the total package it offers. Guy, Have you ever humbled anyone on the road big style?

Gotta shoot out now, so last post for a few hours. In terms of humbling other cars on the roads, I rarely get involved. I get plenty of challenges by the Evo/Subaru/Nova boys, but I usually ignore them (or vaporise them). The problem is that few 575s, 996TTs or Diablos are ever driven quickly, so I've never really needed to try against them. I'd like to meet a McLaren F1, but thats pretty unlikely. The R34 gets so fast so quickly that the most fun is short bursts of 60mph up to 160mph, which is achievable in very short order. Guy PS There is a babyseat in the GTR R34...........

Nice website too. Very clean and uncluttered.

Well I've just picked up the beetle, all nicely waxed from my pal who's a dab valetting geezer and I could cry, it looks so, well, perfectly formed. (What a crime it'll get caked in crap down the M6 tomorrow ) Just drove it back to my gaff and the feeling of 'oneness' and solidity was just pukka. Despite the iminent thrashing about to be meted out by Joust & Co, I think I love it anyway. If only I could drive! But to your question about Skylinism, Paul; you gotta hand it to the R30-something boys, haven't you? I mean, WHAT an incredible engine! Also, the chassis is truly staggering, more than capable of coping with the ridiculous globs of power Guy & Co chuck at 'em! Certainly, the feelings of absolute solidity referred to above were quite possibly superior to my 993; the way the R34s of my experience have delivered their immense payloads has always left me speechless...in a sort of vast GT way, rather than the mental bonkerism of the very best EVO/Scooby derivatives which probably rule the B roads... I'd certainly love a Guyesque R34 but not instead of, only as well as, the old 911. The Skyline has little of the cognescentis' kudos but any PHer with half an atomized ameboa's reactivity knows better than to throw down the gauntlet when that grim grille looms in the rear view...it simply demands immense respect. >> Edited by derestrictor on Saturday 26th April 15:06 >> Edited by derestrictor on Saturday 26th April 15:06

Well that got the post moving... Dom, you're still a pykie

UV, did you ever fit the T2 upgrades into your busy life of city play boy?

The only other problem with a highly tuned GTR is the fuel consumption, combined with a 60 litre tank means stopping every 150 miles or less for fuel, whereas my RS with the 92 litre tank goes for about 400 miles........... Guy

Guy, back to my lost question... You have 80k (ish) for one, and only one car. What would you keep /buy? I guess I'm asking: have you got this crazy bhp thing out of your system yet? Can you ever move on to 'normal' cars, or are you trapped by the power lust (insanity).

One car, £80k, the answer is 996 Turbo. With two cars I can satisfy both needs, extreme power (tuned R34) and also pure 911 (993 RS). The 996 Turbo is the best mixture of both, if you can only have it in one car. I had ordered a 996 Turbo X50, but cancelled it when I realised I didn't need the extreme power (I already have it in another car) and was therefore happy to satiate my 911 desire with the RS, which cost only 40% of the 996 X50's price and offered a purer, rawer experience. Mind you I'd probably end up taking the 996 Turbo to Ruf or G-Force............the voice on my shoulder demands 550bhp........... Guy

According to those that know (not me, doh!) the 996TT is THE all-round DADDY. Looks like the Ruf TR is as good as it gets right now. Unfortunately, they are DAMN expensive brand new, and never come up for sale used in RHD. For mortals or the sane, that only leaves G-Force's talents on a 'common' wide body. Such is life, eh?

RR, didn't get round to stage 2, upgraded the home cinema instead. I'm selling the car at the end of the year, and felt stage 2 would be too specialist for most people. Also thinking of basing myself out in Spain, so may need a LHD car soon...

Really? I'm into the home cineama a bit. What did you go for? I have cyrus, but fancy Tag btw. Spain eh? A mate that I mentioned a while ago (his other mate has the mega villa) wants to move to PB. It seems lots of people I've spoken to go there all the time. I'll prob be going out to PB this summer for the first time. Out of interest, how can you go there full time? I thought you were a permanent city trader. Have things changed? Will you still trade on line or something. I've been day dreaming about this kinda thing for a while too. Have relative in Belgium, with a pad in spain too as it goes, and others in Monaco. A good mate has sodded off to Aus to. Everyones doing it! Not sure what I'd do if I did move tho. Without the lingo I mean. I'm an Illustrator and retoucher btw....

Had a race against a german in a C4S who was tailgateing us at 60mph. When the road was clear shift to 3rd...we pulled about 150m on him to 110mph all the best adam

Have you ever come up against another car on the motorway that challenged your TT for sheer acceleration? I wonder how nippy those Audi RS6's and latest 500 pony AMG's might be in comparison. I don't suppose any of you have been humbled by any crazed exotica, have you?