E-Boxster/Cayman... Nooooo! - Page 5 - Boxster/Cayman - PistonHeads UK

Can't say I'm particularly looking forward to these unless they really resolve the obvious battery weight and range issues and hit the same price point... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKIzfJar41I

They should give them different names. About as appealing as stick in the eye

That's it, then. Goodbye Cayman, all hail Emira.

Fink-Nottle said: That's it, then. Goodbye Cayman, all hail Emira. Pretty much. I do wonder how the likes of Porsche are going to resolve the fact that they make sports cars for enthusiasts, and most enthusiasts don't want an EV as their toy. They want something engaging, visceral, mechanical... everything an EV isn't. I'm sure their marketing bods think it's just a case of keep flooding our customers with them and ideas of 'progress' and they'll eventually cave in, but for me there's just no way I'll be sinking the kind of money I'm happy spending on sports cars into EV sports cars. Looks like I'll be doing a lot of overpaying into the mortgage and other investments from 2030 onward Edited by david-j8694 on Wednesday 16th February 13:17

No complaints from me - in fact I'm looking forward to an EV Cayman and will probably buy one. I've got a Taycan and it's superb. The only downside for me is its size. IMO, the advantages that an EV brings to a daily work car but in a smaller package along with similar handling to a current Cayman/Boxster is very appealing. Particularly as battery/motor etc technology is constantly improving.

They sell plenty of cars to people who just want a Porsche I guess, so that will continue. For the enthusiast it'll be time to get yourself a nice 6-pot before prices start to rise potentially.

E-Cayster is Porsche's answer to all the people who were moaning about the four pot turbo engines...

david-j8694 said: Pretty much. I do wonder how the likes of Porsche are going to resolve the fact that they make sports cars for enthusiasts, and most enthusiasts don't want an EV as their toy. They want something engaging, visceral, mechanical... everything an EV isn't. I'm sure their marketing bods think it's just a case of keep flooding our customers with them and ideas of 'progress' and they'll eventually cave in, but for me there's just no way I'll be sinking the kind of money I'm happy spending on sports cars into EV sports cars. Looks like I'll be doing a lot of overpaying into the mortgage and other investments from 2030 onward Edited by david-j8694 on Wednesday 16th February 13:17 This exactly over the last 18 odd years I have been lucky enough to own BMW M cars & Porsches I dont think they can be replaced by an EV , Yes EV's are quick but its not the same

For the same reasons I cannot watch Formula E on the box but can watch ever minute of a Formula 1 race and enjoy it I would not want one. EVs can more than likely produce all the right numbers to paste into the brochure and impress, but they are worthless numbers if you don't enjoy producing them. Most times I go for a drive in my sportscar (not my daily) I do not need to travel to where I am going, whether I am driving to the Stelvio or Southend the only reason I am going there is for the drive. EVs are transportation and nothing more, big difference.

david-j8694 said: Pretty much. I do wonder how the likes of Porsche are going to resolve the fact that they make sports cars for enthusiasts, and most enthusiasts don't want an EV as their toy. They want something engaging, visceral, mechanical... everything an EV isn't. I'm sure their marketing bods think it's just a case of keep flooding our customers with them and ideas of 'progress' and they'll eventually cave in, but for me there's just no way I'll be sinking the kind of money I'm happy spending on sports cars into EV sports cars. Looks like I'll be doing a lot of overpaying into the mortgage and other investments from 2030 onward Edited by david-j8694 on Wednesday 16th February 13:17 Don't give up. Here's great potential tech for hyrdogen/electric: https://www.viritech.co.uk/technology I've had a Tesla Model S for 5 years. 1 trick pony re straight line acceleration and that's it. It's no all-round fun car as way too heavy.

I don't even want an electric lawn mower never mind Porsche sports car...as ever I'll be sticking with my lovely flat-6 987.2 Cayman S. Porsche have already shot themselves in the foot with the flat-4 beetle engine its an abomination of a thing, now a leccy motor...what the hell are they thinking about. Prices of flat-6 Boxster's and Cayman's will now rise.

I am sure that Porsche can make this a fun car to drive. However the elephant in the room to me is still range, not even mentioned in that video. Realistically the range is unlikely to exceed 250 miles, maybe 300 miles driven sensibly. Drive it like you should drive a Porsche sports car and that is going to drop a lot. I am not an electric car Luddite, Mrs BigM has an ID3 which we rack up quite big miles in. I just don’t want to have to feel compromised by the power unit choice of my fun car. Having just driven 5600KMs for fun in the last few days in my Spyder I don’t fancy doing that on battery power. It’s a no from me for now.

bigmowley said: Having just driven 5600KMs for fun in the last few days in my Spyder I don’t fancy doing that on battery power.

981Boxess said: bigmowley said: Having just driven 5600KMs for fun in the last few days in my Spyder I don’t fancy doing that on battery power. Cheeky. Write up on the “new Spyder/GT4 are here thread” PS I am looking at doing a track day at Monza in March for my next ride out.

bigmowley said: Cheeky. Write up on the “new Spyder/GT4 are here thread” PS I am looking at doing a track day at Monza in March for my next ride out. Bravo, sir!

Klippie said: I don't even want an electric lawn mower never mind Porsche sports car...as ever I'll be sticking with my lovely flat-6 987.2 Cayman S. Porsche have already shot themselves in the foot with the flat-4 beetle engine its an abomination of a thing, now a leccy motor...what the hell are they thinking about. Prices of flat-6 Boxster's and Cayman's will now rise. I have to ask have you actually driven a F4T powered car or are you just repeating the noise that a lot of morons make (particularly on this site) , I owned one for 3 years ,granted the sound isnt the best but the way it performed nothing wrong with that

Freakuk said: They sell plenty of cars to people who just want a Porsche I guess, so that will continue. For the enthusiast it'll be time to get yourself a nice 6-pot before prices start to rise potentially. Exactly. 100% this. This is why I believe used car prices will continue to climb over the next decade and beyond.

I am looking forward to see what is launched, it’s spec and how much it is. Pre-Covid I was doing 20 to 25k miles per year so I expect that I will need a pretty newish car when things get back to normal and this might fit the bill nicely. I fully intend to keep my GT3 though and maybe my little Yaris as well.

Selling EVs will allow Porsche to offset their carbon emissions (and sell cars in places like California after 2035). What this actually means is that they will have more scope for truly exciting ICE cars as they won't have to worry about the emissions on those (as a market sector) as much. Enthusiasts should be pleased that Porsche are making these as they'll likely make more and better ICE cars*, in a very similar way to what the Cayenne allowed. maybe, fewer limited run, buy-this-so-you-can-get-that cars as well - as in, anyone who wants a GT4 or GT3 can get one ... All IMO ...

Evo9lution said: Selling EVs will allow Porsche to offset their carbon emissions (and sell cars in places like California after 2035). What this actually means is that they will have more scope for truly exciting ICE cars as they won't have to worry about the emissions on those (as a market sector) as much. Enthusiasts should be pleased that Porsche are making these as they'll likely make more and better ICE cars*, in a very similar way to what the Cayenne allowed. maybe, fewer limited run, buy-this-so-you-can-get-that cars as well - as in, anyone who wants a GT4 or GT3 can get one ... All IMO ... As no combustion engine new cars can be sold from 2030, no matter what the emissions I can't see Porsche having a different business and production model just for another market which will no doubt succumb to the fear trend soon afterwards.

bigmowley said: I am sure that Porsche can make this a fun car to drive. However the elephant in the room to me is still range, not even mentioned in that video. Realistically the range is unlikely to exceed 250 miles, maybe 300 miles driven sensibly. Drive it like you should drive a Porsche sports car and that is going to drop a lot. I am not an electric car Luddite, Mrs BigM has an ID3 which we rack up quite big miles in. I just don’t want to have to feel compromised by the power unit choice of my fun car. Having just driven 5600KMs for fun in the last few days in my Spyder I don’t fancy doing that on battery power. It’s a no from me for now. I agree with a lot of the stuff in this thread, but I do think people need to rethink this range business. I've got a Tesla Model S Performance and a 718 GT4. The Model S has far greater range than the GT4! I drove from south Wales to Scotland and back 3 weeks ago in the Tesla. Yes, I had to stop to charge, but I had to stop more often for my bladder, and the charging was a non-issue and did not slow me down. The car charges at 120+ kW and by the time I've had a pee, grabbed a coffee and made a phone call it's good to go. Within a few years there will be far more 350kW chargers and it really will be a non-issue. The S is surprisingly good fun on nice roads too. Sure, it's no GT4, but it controls its weight well and it's got double the torque, all of it available instantly. I don't need a lecture on the joys of a high revving, naturally aspirated flat 6 and a manual box, I'm a fan. I just think people should try driving what Porsche come up with before making too many assumptions. Porsche aren't making these electric cars because they think we want them instead of GT3s and GT4s, it's through necessity. I agree that us enthusiasts will be hanging on to our toy cars, and I guess it's likely they'll hold their value all the better. But I'm looking forward to having a go in a smaller electric car with Porsche handling and build quality.

julian987R said: Evo9lution said: Selling EVs will allow Porsche to offset their carbon emissions (and sell cars in places like California after 2035). What this actually means is that they will have more scope for truly exciting ICE cars as they won't have to worry about the emissions on those (as a market sector) as much. Enthusiasts should be pleased that Porsche are making these as they'll likely make more and better ICE cars*, in a very similar way to what the Cayenne allowed. maybe, fewer limited run, buy-this-so-you-can-get-that cars as well - as in, anyone who wants a GT4 or GT3 can get one ... All IMO ... As no combustion engine new cars can be sold from 2030, no matter what the emissions I can't see Porsche having a different business and production model just for another market which will no doubt succumb to the fear trend soon afterwards. They still have the option of coming up with a hybrid version to spin it out another 5 years, regardless of what they may say today, if they think there is enough money in it for them to make the effort to do it, but come 2035 it will be game over. I think a lot of people running in to EVs like headless chickens to get something for nothing have not done their sums properly, I don't doubt there will be a minority who are currently saving money in fuel but the overall cost of running an EV is not cheaper. When we are finally all in them where do they think the government are going to find the shortfall in taxes that used to come from fuel sales, one thing is for sure they will be getting it from us one way or another. It wouldn't surprise me if the currently inflated fuel prices are being kept up there to convince the less financially astute that an EV would be cheaper than what they have now.

BobM said: but I do think people need to rethink this range business. I've got a Tesla Model S Performance and a 718 GT4. The Model S has far greater range than the GT4! I drove from south Wales to Scotland and back 3 weeks ago in the Tesla. Yes, I had to stop to charge, but I had to stop more often for my bladder, and the charging was a non-issue and did not slow me down. The car charges at 120+ kW and by the time I've had a pee, grabbed a coffee and made a phone call it's good to go. Within a few years there will be far more 350kW chargers and it really will be a non-issue. I often see this argument being made by the EVangelists but think it is a little more of an issue than just the range of one's bladder. Not to mention current ICE have none of these problems... Current charging infrastructure is not fit for purpose, chargers are often broken or connect briefly then fail, particularly the higher power ones Chargers can be in use. With the recent tax benefits there are a lot more Model 3's around, particularly here in the South East. Arriving at a busy service station can often mean you end up waiting for people to finish charging first. And they're not just 'filling up' for a couple of minutes either so is likely to be at least a half hour wait before a half hour charge, say, so at least an hour vs 2 minutes at the pumps. Limited numbers of high power chargers available Charge at home you say. Well yes except there are a few things there that affect range. I don't work for carwow, but their recent BEV analysis of what impacts actual range vs the "offical" manufacturer suggested one is quite significant, with 'real' ranges falling far below the official manufacturer figure by some considerable margin. Which means you can't rely on it at all, and this again doesn't help their case as they lose more credibility by quoting bulls t range figures. Using the heater, AC or even just the wipers when driving in the rain will have an impact. When your quoted 330 mile range actually works out to nearer ~150 charging is certainly going to add to your journey time, and home charging is also overnight not 30 minutes. Also, user choice I'm sure but I don't drive round usually in an economical manner at all. I've always been lead footed, getting 20 mpg is good going. If you drive 'enthusiastically' in an EV or at speed you will run down the batteries quicker. I don't want to drive in an economical manner. And finally as batteries age they become less efficient. Which means you need to lease because they are so expensive to replace, just look at that guy with the Mercedes hybrid whose battery failed... Now I'm a big fan of the EV performance and Taycan acceleration is great, but when when it weighs nearer two tonnes I do wonder how that will translate into a Porsche Cayman rather than just big SUVs and grand tourers. Currently it is simply not practical and a significant backward step vs ICE, perhaps except for very specific usage cases and where people have other vehicles available. What irritates is the 'stick' rather than the 'carrot' approach currently being pursued. When EVs are demonstrably better than ICE cars they won't need massive tax rebates in order to sell a lot of units, they will sell themselves. Edited by Lexington59 on Thursday 17th February 09:42

Porsche have two choices. Produce desirable cars which they can legally sell in its important markets. Die. Not migrating to EV means option 2. It's as simple as that.

otolith said: Porsche have two choices. Produce desirable cars which they can legally sell in its important markets. Die. Not migrating to EV means option 2. It's as simple as that. You are still thinking one dimensionally, and believing all the current virtue signalling bulls t from politicians around 2030 / 2035 etc that is simply never going to happen. Net zero is also going to die sooner or later. The sooner the better in my view.

Lexington59 said: You are still thinking one dimensionally, and believing all the current virtue signalling bulls t from politicians around 2030 / 2035 etc that is simply never going to happen. Net zero is also going to die sooner or later. The sooner the better in my view. Well, maybe you are smarter than the entire automotive industry, maybe you're not, but they agree with me and that's why they are doing what they are doing. I think you are falling victim to wishful thinking.

Lexington59 said: Currently it is simply not practical and a significant backward step vs ICE, perhaps except for very specific usage cases and where people have other vehicles available. A car that hardly ever leaves the city, for shopping, running the kids that cannot walk about, that you can charge at home with a half decent range for sensible money is the only scenario I see it working and I am not sure such a car currently exists. The current crop of 3 cyl city cars that run on fumes is probably doing a better job of that anyway.

otolith said: Well, maybe you are smarter than the entire automotive industry, maybe you're not, but they agree with me and that's why they are doing what they are doing. The automotive industry are in the business of selling cars, they will make whatever they can sell, it doesn't have to be any better than what is made today it just has to comply and make them money. Ultimately they won't pay if we are all worse off, nor will the government, we will.

981Boxess said: hey still have the option of coming up with a hybrid version to spin it out another 5 years, regardless of what they may say today, if they think there is enough money in it for them to make the effort to do it, but come 2035 it will be game over. I think a lot of people running in to EVs like headless chickens to get something for nothing have not done their sums properly, I don't doubt there will be a minority who are currently saving money in fuel but the overall cost of running an EV is not cheaper. When we are finally all in them where do they think the government are going to find the shortfall in taxes that used to come from fuel sales, one thing is for sure they will be getting it from us one way or another. It wouldn't surprise me if the currently inflated fuel prices are being kept up there to convince the less financially astute that an EV would be cheaper than what they have now. I wonder if I’m the minority running a Tesla model S saving money. 75 miles a day costs me about £2 to charge for approx 5 hours every night. OK, it’s a cheap rate that’s going up soon. I’ve done nearly 100,000 miles and reckon on saving about £15,000 in fuel costs so far. Never changed pads/discs, basic service every 40,000 miles and to cap it all free supercharging. Yaris GR for current fun, and Boxster GTS on order.

981Boxess said: otolith said: Well, maybe you are smarter than the entire automotive industry, maybe you're not, but they agree with me and that's why they are doing what they are doing. The automotive industry are in the business of selling cars, they will make whatever they can sell, it doesn't have to be any better than what is made today it just has to comply and make them money. Yep. But something like a Boxster is a discretionary purchase. It's not basic transport. So Porsche will have to find ways of making the cars desirable.

rossfitz said: I wonder if I’m the minority running a Tesla model S saving money. 75 miles a day costs me about £2 to charge for approx 5 hours every night. OK, it’s a cheap rate that’s going up soon. I’ve done nearly 100,000 miles and reckon on saving about £15,000 in fuel costs so far. Never changed pads/discs, basic service every 40,000 miles and to cap it all free supercharging. How much did you spend on a Tesla S to save £15k in fuel?

otolith said: But something like a Boxster is a discretionary purchase. It's not basic transport. So Porsche will have to find ways of making the cars desirable. There will be no other option, EV, take it or leave it.

981Boxess said: otolith said: But something like a Boxster is a discretionary purchase. It's not basic transport. So Porsche will have to find ways of making the cars desirable. There will be no other option, EV, take it or leave it. Exactly my point. And because a Boxster isn't an essential purchase, even if a car of some sort is, unless Porsche find a way to make an electric one desirable, people will leave it. So we are back to what I said, it's a matter of produce desirable cars which they can legally sell in their important markets, or die. People are buying Taycans, and seem to like them. I expect that they'll like and buy electric Boxsters and Caymans.

981Boxess said: rossfitz said: I wonder if I’m the minority running a Tesla model S saving money. 75 miles a day costs me about £2 to charge for approx 5 hours every night. OK, it’s a cheap rate that’s going up soon. I’ve done nearly 100,000 miles and reckon on saving about £15,000 in fuel costs so far. Never changed pads/discs, basic service every 40,000 miles and to cap it all free supercharging. How much did you spend on a Tesla S to save £15k in fuel? More accurately, over and above what he'd have bought otherwise.

otolith said: And because a Boxster isn't an essential purchase, even if a car of some sort is, unless Porsche find a way to make an electric one desirable, people will leave it. So we are back to what I said, it's a matter of produce desirable cars which they can legally sell in their important markets, or die. People are buying Taycans, and seem to like them. I expect that they'll like and buy electric Boxsters and Caymans. You are obviously sold on the idea, buy one. As a current owner I cannot see how an EV Boxster will ever appeal to me, I will be interested to drive whatever they come up with out of curiosity but I doubt very much I would ever buy one. There is more to driving a sportscar than the brochure 0 - 60 time. People are buying Taycans instead of buying Teslas and I am sure they are a great alternative, but that has nothing to do with this debate.

981Boxess said: ow much did you spend on a Tesla S to save £15k in fuel? I guessed this one was coming. £65K new, current worth about £38K.

981Boxess said: otolith said: And because a Boxster isn't an essential purchase, even if a car of some sort is, unless Porsche find a way to make an electric one desirable, people will leave it. So we are back to what I said, it's a matter of produce desirable cars which they can legally sell in their important markets, or die. People are buying Taycans, and seem to like them. I expect that they'll like and buy electric Boxsters and Caymans. You are obviously sold on the idea, buy one. As a current owner I cannot see how an EV Boxster will ever appeal to me, I will be interested to drive whatever they come up with out of curiosity but I doubt very much I would ever buy one. There is more to driving a sportscar than the brochure 0 - 60 time. People are buying Taycans instead of buying Teslas and I am sure they are a great alternative, but that has nothing to do with this debate. I don't want one, but then I don't want a petrol one either. Porsche are doing what they have to do. This is just reality. It's not going away. I don't expect them to go out of business.

981Boxess said: People are buying Taycans instead of buying Teslas and I am sure they are a great alternative, but that has nothing to do with this debate. Not so sure about that. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/29/porsche-tayca...

otolith said: 981Boxess said: People are buying Taycans instead of buying Teslas and I am sure they are a great alternative, but that has nothing to do with this debate. Not so sure about that. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/29/porsche-tayca... More prosaically I'd suspect some tax advantages may be helping there vs the Panamera at the end of it's usual model life. And replacing one expensive older model big, heavy grand tourer with another may work for some. I do wonder how they are adapting to the ~170 mile usable range however.

Suspect that most of them are mostly used to commute from a leafy suburb to a city centre, rather than actually being used as a grand tourer.

This is the best news for owners of both 6 pot and 4 pot Caymans - looking forward to my 981 GTS peaking at £100k value

Lexington59 said: I often see this argument being made by the EVangelists but think it is a little more of an issue than just the range of one's bladder. Not to mention current ICE have none of these problems... Current charging infrastructure is not fit for purpose, chargers are often broken or connect briefly then fail, particularly the higher power ones Chargers can be in use. With the recent tax benefits there are a lot more Model 3's around, particularly here in the South East. Arriving at a busy service station can often mean you end up waiting for people to finish charging first. And they're not just 'filling up' for a couple of minutes either so is likely to be at least a half hour wait before a half hour charge, say, so at least an hour vs 2 minutes at the pumps. Limited numbers of high power chargers available Charge at home you say. Well yes except there are a few things there that affect range. I don't work for carwow, but their recent BEV analysis of what impacts actual range vs the "offical" manufacturer suggested one is quite significant, with 'real' ranges falling far below the official manufacturer figure by some considerable margin. Which means you can't rely on it at all, and this again doesn't help their case as they lose more credibility by quoting bulls t range figures. Using the heater, AC or even just the wipers when driving in the rain will have an impact. When your quoted 330 mile range actually works out to nearer ~150 charging is certainly going to add to your journey time, and home charging is also overnight not 30 minutes. Also, user choice I'm sure but I don't drive round usually in an economical manner at all. I've always been lead footed, getting 20 mpg is good going. If you drive 'enthusiastically' in an EV or at speed you will run down the batteries quicker. I don't want to drive in an economical manner. And finally as batteries age they become less efficient. Which means you need to lease because they are so expensive to replace, just look at that guy with the Mercedes hybrid whose battery failed... Now I'm a big fan of the EV performance and Taycan acceleration is great, but when when it weighs nearer two tonnes I do wonder how that will translate into a Porsche Cayman rather than just big SUVs and grand tourers. Currently it is simply not practical and a significant backward step vs ICE, perhaps except for very specific usage cases and where people have other vehicles available. What irritates is the 'stick' rather than the 'carrot' approach currently being pursued. When EVs are demonstrably better than ICE cars they won't need massive tax rebates in order to sell a lot of units, they will sell themselves. Edited by Lexington59 on Thursday 17th February 09:42 EV cars will solve very little, they just move pollution around. I want to see the issues arise in a decade when the first-gen EV battery packs are being "recycled" (i.e. dumped into a quarry in the global south) and the sunken cost of ownership dawns on owners that once the battery degrades, meaning their car is worthless/£30k needed for a new battery. Secondly, something like 40% of all ocean plastic comes from cars. So trying to get all the ICE vehicles off the road to be "recycled" and replaced with EVs will do nothing to stem this issue. Thirdly, the mining and degradation required (again mainly in impoverished, third world nations) to keep up this new, mandated demand for batteries will have it's negative effects on the environment. Seems very short sighted and a solution for people's "idea" of green tech because we watched sci-fi movies thrity years back with electric vehicles.

Swine Enthusiast said: EV cars will solve very little, they just move pollution around. I want to see the issues arise in a decade when the first-gen EV battery packs are being "recycled" (i.e. dumped into a quarry in the global south) and the sunken cost of ownership dawns on owners that once the battery degrades, meaning their car is worthless/£30k needed for a new battery. Secondly, something like 40% of all ocean plastic comes from cars. So trying to get all the ICE vehicles off the road to be "recycled" and replaced with EVs will do nothing to stem this issue. Thirdly, the mining and degradation required (again mainly in impoverished, third world nations) to keep up this new, mandated demand for batteries will have it's negative effects on the environment. Seems very short sighted and a solution for people's "idea" of green tech because we watched sci-fi movies thrity years back with electric vehicles. Doesn't really matter whether you or I or Porsche believe that burning fossil fuels in cars contributes to dangerous climate change. The scientific community believes it, and governments are taking the lead from them. So that leads to policies which mean that it will be forced to stop. That means either you give up cars, or you find something else to run them on. Using non fossil fuel energy to make combustion fuels is disastrously inefficient which is a problem when you still don't have enough non fossil fuel energy to meet all your other needs. Burning fuels derived from crops appears to require too much land to be taken away from current use. So governments are overwhelmingly choosing the path of battery electric with a shift to renewable generation. This decision is out of the hands of the motor industry, for all their lobbying. Current UK policy is simply a programme to stop replacing old ICE cars with new ICE cars and let them decline through natural wastage, not a scrappage scheme.

Swine Enthusiast said: This is the best news for owners of both 6 pot and 4 pot Caymans - looking forward to my 981 GTS peaking at £100k value Is that when petrol is £100 per litre ?

Curledge said: Is that when petrol is £100 per litre ? Only if the government tax it like that. It is a concern for me long term, but as the ICE cars (will be) weekend cars by then milage will be low I'm really interested to see what they can don't with the Caymen - I have zero interest in actually buying one, but keen to see if they can make it fun with all that extra weight being carried about. A plus will be it'll be low down COG and should negate the extra weight. Outside of pistonheads types I'd wager most standard Caymen (and 911) owners rarely drive their cars fast through a set of twisting, challenging roads - most get floored coming out of roundabouts onto dual carriageways and the like, and the EV version will be perfect for 'winning' there.

rossfitz said: 981Boxess said: How much did you spend on a Tesla S to save £15k in fuel? I guessed this one was coming. £65K new, current worth about £38K. Lets face it we all have calculators and it isn't as if some have spotted an opportunity others have missed, the facts and figures are not a secret. So it isn't hard to work out why some people do and some don't buy EVs - it doesn't work out better for everyone, simple as that really.

Nothing in the video - comprising mostly of assumption and conjecture - about timing. Presumably at some point they'll be a 718.2, and the EV appears in time for the 2030 ban.

981Boxess said: It wouldn't surprise me if the currently inflated fuel prices are being kept up there to convince the less financially astute that an EV would be cheaper than what they have now. Absolutely... my thought too. But not those in terraced multi-million pound houses. No, they can't home charge. And so EVs will come... and go away as they cannot be recharged effectively. Hydrogen is the way forward. Not as efficient but extracting it cheaply is being improved day by day. BMW, Hyundai, and JLR all working on hydrogen as a solution. I'll wait for one of those.

Hydrogen is indeed a potential solution for people who want a very expensive slow electric car that doesn’t need to be plugged in.

Fair points ...or nuclear perhaps? I do get fed up with "save the planet" - the planet will survive long after the human race IS wiped out sooner or later. What they mean is "save the human race." We're just trying to add a teeny weeny percentage point to the time we have left on earth.

981Boxess said: here will be no other option, EV, take it or leave it. Well I for one will be leaving it , electric cars are for tree huggers & morons they hold absolutely no interest for me & resent being forced to buy one so 2029 im buying an ICE vehicle and that will last me till I die

I read somewhere that the E-Boxster/Cayman is going to be based on the Taycan platform, which is possibly even obvious given that Porsche won't go out of its way on the worst performing cars of its range. So the end result is going to be something similar to the Taycan in size and weight which will perhaps translate to a Taycan coupe and a Taycan convertible. The idea of a Taycan coupe' sounds alright, could even do a 2+2 lol. OK maybe not but I'd say a Taycan coupe' could sell well.

981Boxess said: Lexington59 said: A car that hardly ever leaves the city, for shopping, running the kids that cannot walk about, that you can charge at home with a half decent range for sensible money is the only scenario I see it working and I am not sure such a car currently exists. ...but how in cities can that be viable? in my area of london, in probably a square mile of where i live maybe 1% have off street parking or a garage. How does the overnight charge work, wires all over the pavements and through peoples letter boxes? They need to come at it like BT and Virgin did in the early 90s and be digging up every pavement in the country and installing charge points every X feet.

otolith said: 981Boxess said: otolith said: But something like a Boxster is a discretionary purchase. It's not basic transport. So Porsche will have to find ways of making the cars desirable. There will be no other option, EV, take it or leave it. Exactly my point. And because a Boxster isn't an essential purchase, even if a car of some sort is, unless Porsche find a way to make an electric one desirable, people will leave it..... ...they'll leave it and buy a second hand ICE, which is why ICE car prices are going to continue to go through the roof.

Swine Enthusiast said: This is the best news for owners of both 6 pot and 4 pot Caymans - looking forward to my 981 GTS peaking at £100k value you better believe it, £100K plus come 2035 for sure.

julian987R said: ...but how in cities can that be viable? in my area of london, in probably a square mile of where i live maybe 1% have off street parking or a garage. How does the overnight charge work, wires all over the pavements and through peoples letter boxes? They need to come at it like BT and Virgin did in the early 90s and be digging up every pavement in the country and installing charge points every X feet. The potential problem there is that it is increasingly the case that making high density urban living incompatible with private car ownership is seen by policymakers as a feature, not a bug. Car ownership and use as primary transport is dramatically lower in London than the rest of the UK. There are competing policy objectives in reducing car ownership and use in cities, and encouraging those who do own and use cars to go electric. It’s hard to predict which of those will win out.

julian987R said: ...they'll leave it and buy a second hand ICE, which is why ICE car prices are going to continue to go through the roof. Some will, certainly until the dwindling market for petrol starts to affect distribution network viability. I will be keeping my petrol car until it becomes a driveway ornament. Others won’t care.

julian987R said: you better believe it, £100K plus come 2035 for sure.

Lexington59 said: What irritates is the 'stick' rather than the 'carrot' approach currently being pursued. When EVs are demonstrably better than ICE cars they won't need massive tax rebates in order to sell a lot of units, they will sell themselves. Charlie_1 said: Well I for one will be leaving it , electric cars are for tree huggers & morons they hold absolutely no interest for me & resent being forced to buy one so 2029 im buying an ICE vehicle and that will last me till I die Glad I'm not the only one! What's really doing my head in at the moment is, if cars/transport/fossil fuel usage really was responsible for CO2 levels/warming, how come after the early days of covid when something like 80% of GLOBAL industry/shipping/flying/driving stopped, for many weeks, COMPLETELY! Nothing changed, CO2 levels carried on doing what they've been doing. No change whatsoever!!! Just hope I can afford the continued war on driving ICE cars...

Jim1556 said: Glad I'm not the only one! What's really doing my head in at the moment is, if cars/transport/fossil fuel usage really was responsible for CO2 levels/warming, how come after the early days of covid when something like 80% of GLOBAL industry/shipping/flying/driving stopped, for many weeks, COMPLETELY! Nothing changed, CO2 levels carried on doing what they've been doing. No change whatsoever!!! Just hope I can afford the continued war on driving ICE cars... Covid effect https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00090-3 Travel is about 20% of emissions, road travel about 15%, total drop for the year globally about 6%

otolith said: julian987R said: ...but how in cities can that be viable? in my area of london, in probably a square mile of where i live maybe 1% have off street parking or a garage. How does the overnight charge work, wires all over the pavements and through peoples letter boxes? They need to come at it like BT and Virgin did in the early 90s and be digging up every pavement in the country and installing charge points every X feet. The potential problem there is that it is increasingly the case that making high density urban living incompatible with private car ownership is seen by policymakers as a feature, not a bug. Car ownership and use as primary transport is dramatically lower in London than the rest of the UK. There are competing policy objectives in reducing car ownership and use in cities, and encouraging those who do own and use cars to go electric. It’s hard to predict which of those will win out. Not a POV shared by those who’s vote matters.

Curledge said: julian987R said: you better believe it, £100K plus come 2035 for sure. It’s happening already.

otolith said: Hydrogen is indeed a potential solution for people who want a very expensive slow electric car that doesn’t need to be plugged in. Oh they have been on about Hydrogen is just around the corner for over a decade now. It’s one b y big corner then isn’t it.

julian987R said: Not a POV shared by those who’s vote matters. Possibly. A slim majority of London households own a car at 56%, so they might swing it - however it’s not got a good record of electing politicians who don’t hate the motorist.

otolith said: Covid effect https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00090-3 Travel is about 20% of emissions, road travel about 15%, total drop for the year globally about 6% Not according to NOAA "the global average atmospheric carbon dioxide in 2020 was 412.5 parts per million (ppm for short), setting a new record high amount despite the economic slowdown due to the COVID-19 pandemic. In fact, the jump of 2.6 ppm over 2019 levels was the fifth-highest annual increase in NOAA's 63-year record." Full detail here: www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climat... I don't buy it (and won't while I have a choice!)... Edited by Jim1556 on Thursday 17th February 21:04

Emissions dropped by 6%. Turning the bath taps down by 6% doesn’t make the level drop.

Lexington59 said: I often see this argument being made by the EVangelists but think it is a little more of an issue than just the range of one's bladder. Not to mention current ICE have none of these problems... Current charging infrastructure is not fit for purpose, chargers are often broken or connect briefly then fail, particularly the higher power ones Chargers can be in use. With the recent tax benefits there are a lot more Model 3's around, particularly here in the South East. Arriving at a busy service station can often mean you end up waiting for people to finish charging first. And they're not just 'filling up' for a couple of minutes either so is likely to be at least a half hour wait before a half hour charge, say, so at least an hour vs 2 minutes at the pumps. Limited numbers of high power chargers available To suggest I'm an EV evangelist is somewhat disingenuous, I remain as petrolheaded as most in here, with a GT4 and a 1200cc bike. I completely agree current (non-Tesla) charging infrastructure is woefully inadequate, but the scenario we're discussing here is the future, when ICE Caymans are phased out for an electric version. As I said in my message, charging speeds are increasing, so people won't need to be on a charger for more than about 10 minutes. Charging hubs are starting to appear with much larger numbers of chargers. Tesla already have 16 at Wokingham, 24 at Heathrow, 24 at Westfield, Gridserve have 36 at Braintree. The M4 services 2 miles from me in sleepy south Wales has just gone from 2x50kW chargers to 6x350kW units. Lexington59 said: *Charge at home you say. Well yes except there are a few things there that affect range. I don't work for carwow, but their recent BEV analysis of what impacts actual range vs the "offical" manufacturer suggested one is quite significant, with 'real' ranges falling far below the official manufacturer figure by some considerable margin. Which means you can't rely on it at all, and this again doesn't help their case as they lose more credibility by quoting bulls t range figures. Using the heater, AC or even just the wipers when driving in the rain will have an impact. When your quoted 330 mile range actually works out to nearer ~150 charging is certainly going to add to your journey time, and home charging is also overnight not 30 minutes. And of course all the ICE manufacturer quoted economies are accurate Range only matters for a very small percentage of journeys - the long ones. If all you do is long journeys and you have no home charging then an EV definitely ain't for you. Who cares how long it takes to charge overnight? I plug in in the evening, it's charged in the morning. Lexington59 said: *Also, user choice I'm sure but I don't drive round usually in an economical manner at all. I've always been lead footed, getting 20 mpg is good going. If you drive 'enthusiastically' in an EV or at speed you will run down the batteries quicker. I don't want to drive in an economical manner. And your point is? I drive both my Tesla and the GT4 in a spirited manner. Like I said, unless I'm on a long trip, the range simply doesn't matter. 99% of my journeys are massively less than the car's range. Lexington59 said: *And finally as batteries age they become less efficient. Which means you need to lease because they are so expensive to replace, just look at that guy with the Mercedes hybrid whose battery failed... Please ... go away and do your research. And nobody with a Mercedes ever had to replace their engine, right? I sold my last Tesla with 45,000 miles on it at 3 years and the battery was still at about 96%. Modern EV batteries do not degrade significantly. Perhaps Mercedes guy should have done his research and bough a car with an 8 year drivetrain warranty. Lexington59 said: Now I'm a big fan of the EV performance and Taycan acceleration is great, but when when it weighs nearer two tonnes I do wonder how that will translate into a Porsche Cayman rather than just big SUVs and grand tourers. Again, if you do your research, the first car Tesla produced was the original Roadster, based on the Lotus Elise chassis. It can and will be done. They aren't going to be 1500kg like my GT4 I suspect, but likely not much more. My Model S is about 2300kg, but it's a massive car with 4 seats and a huge boot front and back. A 2 seater can be much smaller and won't need a 100kWh battery. The original Tesla Roadster was 1305kg. Lexington59 said: Currently it is simply not practical and a significant backward step vs ICE, perhaps except for very specific usage cases and where people have other vehicles available. In your humble opinion of course. In my opinion it's the other way round - I accept there are folks whose use case won't currently fit with an EV, but for the vast majority of us they work just fine, even now. But again, I remind you I was talking about a couple of years down the line.

Swine Enthusiast said: EV cars will solve very little, they just move pollution around. I want to see the issues arise in a decade when the first-gen EV battery packs are being "recycled" (i.e. dumped into a quarry in the global south) and the sunken cost of ownership dawns on owners that once the battery degrades, meaning their car is worthless/£30k needed for a new battery. Oh crikey, this again If you're going to charge your electric car from a diesel generator or a coal fired power station you have a point. But we generally don't. The percentage of our electricity supply coming from renewables is increasing year on year. Battery packs on modern EVs do not die after 10 years. Even where they have problems, there is a whole industry springing up repairing them economically. Bit like folks don't throw their Porsche away when the RMS fails ... And nobody ever has or ever will be throwing EV batteries in quarries

DJMC said: Hydrogen is the way forward. Not as efficient but extracting it cheaply is being improved day by day. BMW, Hyundai, and JLR all working on hydrogen as a solution. I'll wait for one of those. The energy required to produce hydrogen is simply too much to ever make it compete with using battery stored electricity as a fuel source. The efficiency may change a little but probably not by the margin required. Hydrogen isn't a terribly user-friendly fuel to be lugging round with you. Apparently there are over 100,000 car fires a year in the UK (and contrary to popular belief it's far more likely to happen to an ICE car than an EV). Good luck with that if you have a hydrogen tank on board. Hydrogen also isn't terribly easy stuff to transport and store. Electricity for BEVs on the other hand, is pretty easy to transport. Hydrogen may well be the fuel of the future, but not the near future. It's probably still decades away.

julian987R said: ...but how in cities can that be viable? in my area of london, in probably a square mile of where i live maybe 1% have off street parking or a garage. How does the overnight charge work, wires all over the pavements and through peoples letter boxes? They need to come at it like BT and Virgin did in the early 90s and be digging up every pavement in the country and installing charge points every X feet. To add a little balance to the debate we do already have a network of mains supply running down the pavements for street lighting. They have already started providing charge points on lamposts in some areas, no idea if it is fast/slow/silly money but I guess it is better than nothing. Our illustrious leaders have decided this is going to happen and regardless of if any of it makes any sense it will. Even if they have worked out it is a mistake they cannot turn back, too many EVs already sold now, so they have to make the best of a rubbish idea.

julian987R said: otolith said: Hydrogen is indeed a potential solution for people who want a very expensive slow electric car that doesn’t need to be plugged in. Oh they have been on about Hydrogen is just around the corner for over a decade now. It’s one b y big corner then isn’t it. To be fair there are hydrogen cars in existence, but they aren't very compelling. Lack of fuelling network, unavoidably high fuelling costs, very high purchase costs, modest performance, can't charge them at home, and at the end of the day they're still just an electric car so no engine fun. Edited by otolith on Friday 18th February 10:11

BobM said: Lexington59 said: I often see this argument being made by the EVangelists but think it is a little more of an issue than just the range of one's bladder. Not to mention current ICE have none of these problems... Current charging infrastructure is not fit for purpose, chargers are often broken or connect briefly then fail, particularly the higher power ones Chargers can be in use. With the recent tax benefits there are a lot more Model 3's around, particularly here in the South East. Arriving at a busy service station can often mean you end up waiting for people to finish charging first. And they're not just 'filling up' for a couple of minutes either so is likely to be at least a half hour wait before a half hour charge, say, so at least an hour vs 2 minutes at the pumps. Limited numbers of high power chargers available To suggest I'm an EV evangelist is somewhat disingenuous, I remain as petrolheaded as most in here, with a GT4 and a 1200cc bike. I completely agree current (non-Tesla) charging infrastructure is woefully inadequate, but the scenario we're discussing here is the future, when ICE Caymans are phased out for an electric version. As I said in my message, charging speeds are increasing, so people won't need to be on a charger for more than about 10 minutes. Charging hubs are starting to appear with much larger numbers of chargers. Tesla already have 16 at Wokingham, 24 at Heathrow, 24 at Westfield, Gridserve have 36 at Braintree. The M4 services 2 miles from me in sleepy south Wales has just gone from 2x50kW chargers to 6x350kW units. Yep, it’s a lightning roll out… https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10525039/... BobM said: Lexington59 said: *Charge at home you say. Well yes except there are a few things there that affect range. I don't work for carwow, but their recent BEV analysis of what impacts actual range vs the "offical" manufacturer suggested one is quite significant, with 'real' ranges falling far below the official manufacturer figure by some considerable margin. Which means you can't rely on it at all, and this again doesn't help their case as they lose more credibility by quoting bulls t range figures. Using the heater, AC or even just the wipers when driving in the rain will have an impact. When your quoted 330 mile range actually works out to nearer ~150 charging is certainly going to add to your journey time, and home charging is also overnight not 30 minutes. And of course all the ICE manufacturer quoted economies are accurate Range only matters for a very small percentage of journeys - the long ones. If all you do is long journeys and you have no home charging then an EV definitely ain't for you. ICE ranges are far more reliable. This is from a 330 quoted range. 100 miles from towing a paltry 884 kgs ! BobM said: Who cares how long it takes to charge overnight? I plug in in the evening, it's charged in the morning. Multiple trips out and about during the day will also kill the range, it doesn’t only apply to long distances. We can’t fast charge at home so if you’ll be using the car even locally all day you’ll need to factor in finding a charging station and hope that it is working. More inconvenience. BobM said: Lexington59 said: *Also, user choice I'm sure but I don't drive round usually in an economical manner at all. I've always been lead footed, getting 20 mpg is good going. If you drive 'enthusiastically' in an EV or at speed you will run down the batteries quicker. I don't want to drive in an economical manner. And your point is? I drive both my Tesla and the GT4 in a spirited manner. Like I said, unless I'm on a long trip, the range simply doesn't matter. 99% of my journeys are massively less than the car's range. I refer you to my answer above. BobM said: Lexington59 said: *And finally as batteries age they become less efficient. Which means you need to lease because they are so expensive to replace, just look at that guy with the Mercedes hybrid whose battery failed... Please ... go away and do your research. And nobody with a Mercedes ever had to replace their engine, right? I sold my last Tesla with 45,000 miles on it at 3 years and the battery was still at about 96%. Modern EV batteries do not degrade significantly. Perhaps Mercedes guy should have done his research and bough a car with an 8 year drivetrain warranty. Let’s check the Tesla warranty: “8 years or 160,000 km, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.” https://www.tesla.com/en_EU/support/vehicle-warran... As already mentioned current EV range is insufficient. If my fuel tank lost 30% capacity I’d be annoyed, to lose 30% of a very limited range to begin with over such a relatively short time line is pretty appalling really. Here’s the Mercedes Hybrid story for those who may have missed it… https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1556002/... BobM said: Lexington59 said: Now I'm a big fan of the EV performance and Taycan acceleration is great, but when when it weighs nearer two tonnes I do wonder how that will translate into a Porsche Cayman rather than just big SUVs and grand tourers. Again, if you do your research, the first car Tesla produced was the original Roadster, based on the Lotus Elise chassis. It can and will be done. They aren't going to be 1500kg like my GT4 I suspect, but likely not much more. My Model S is about 2300kg, but it's a massive car with 4 seats and a huge boot front and back. A 2 seater can be much smaller and won't need a 100kWh battery. The original Tesla Roadster was 1305kg. The original Tesla roadster had a quoted range of barely 200 miles. So barely 100 real world then… BobM said: Lexington59 said: Currently it is simply not practical and a significant backward step vs ICE, perhaps except for very specific usage cases and where people have other vehicles available. In your humble opinion of course. In my opinion it's the other way round - I accept there are folks whose use case won't currently fit with an EV, but for the vast majority of us they work just fine, even now. But again, I remind you I was talking about a couple of years down the line. I think we’ll need a few more than a couple of years… Apologies to others for multiple quoting. This is what happens when you get into a discussion with an EVangelist- to some defending EVs at all cost would appear to be a religion.

Lexington59 said: This is what happens when you get into a discussion with an EVangelist- to some defending EVs at all cost would appear to be a religion. Why bother?

981Boxess said: Lexington59 said: This is what happens when you get into a discussion with an EVangelist- to some defending EVs at all cost would appear to be a religion. Why bother? Very true, I don't usually but clearly I had too much spare time this morning...

DMZ said: I read somewhere that the E-Boxster/Cayman is going to be based on the Taycan platform, which is possibly even obvious given that Porsche won't go out of its way on the worst performing cars of its range. So the end result is going to be something similar to the Taycan in size and weight which will perhaps translate to a Taycan coupe and a Taycan convertible. The idea of a Taycan coupe' sounds alright, could even do a 2+2 lol. OK maybe not but I'd say a Taycan coupe' could sell well. The Cayman/Boxster replacement will be based on the Mission R concept, not much in common with the Taycan platform and utilises a different battery layout. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jDKtwXUkao It looks similar in size to the current 718 platform

Lexington59 said: BobM said: A 2 seater can be much smaller and won't need a 100kWh battery. The original Tesla Roadster was 1305kg. The original Tesla roadster had a quoted range of barely 200 miles. So barely 100 real world then… Although interestingly the battery upgrade to more modern batteries offered in 2016 increased the range to 340 miles. It would certainly be interesting to see what could be done with the same brief now, using the latest tech and a ground up EV rather than a modified ICE car. Edited by otolith on Friday 18th February 17:26

otolith said: julian987R said: otolith said: Hydrogen is indeed a potential solution for people who want a very expensive slow electric car that doesn’t need to be plugged in. Oh they have been on about Hydrogen is just around the corner for over a decade now. It’s one b y big corner then isn’t it. To be fair there are hydrogen cars in existence, but they aren't very compelling. Lack of fuelling network, unavoidably high fuelling costs, very high purchase costs, modest performance, can't charge them at home, and at the end of the day they're still just an electric car so no engine fun. Edited by otolith on Friday 18th February 10:11 That and electricity doesn't tend to leak out of a battery in the same way that hydrogen likes to leak out of anything you contain it in.

I think there are a few manufacturers who can figure out how to make an exciting, enjoyable electric sports car for money normal people can afford. Porsche, Lotus, Alpine. Probably Mazda if they can be arsed. Toyota and Honda could, but don’t look interested.

I think the the new Cayman / Boxster Ev could be amazing, but only for a few. Why ? Firstly you must have your own charger ... and you may need a three phase supply. Secondly the UK will need enough generating capacity so that owners do not worry about having their remaining charge "stolen" overnight when the car should be charging. Thirdly the car would likely be used only for comparatively short spirited runs within a limited distance of the home charger ... or between friends with compatible charging options. Me .... I could make it work ... with a GR Yaris as the "do-it-all" would work. I love the idea ... but with the above limitations and opportunities. Green guilt is a terrible thing. As for Hydrogen ... has anybody any real idea how dangerous liquid hydrogen is ? What the weight of the containment vessel would be ? How much energy is required to generate the Hydrogen and then compress it ? And how then would it be distributed ? My honest view is that synthetic hydrocarbons using carbon capture and excess green energy is the way to go .... for a GR Yaris or ? Edited by ChrisW. on Friday 18th February 21:08

I think this just shows what amazing value cars such as the MX5 are ... don't you think that Mazda would make it electric if they thought they could ? 2030 is going to be a big boost for the secondhand car market ... there will be a lot of people who simply cannot own a wholly electric car.

Manufacturers have got another 5-10 years of selling ICEs, they can’t generally build as many EVs at the moment as they could sell and they have significant investment in ICE and current models to sweat. I think sports cars will be the last lines to transition, especially amongst makers of ordinary volume stuff. Arguments maybe different for brands which want to be seen as cutting edge.

otolith said: Manufacturers have got another 5-10 years of selling ICEs, that’s what they want you to think… 2030 is a pipe dream..

Lexington59 said: that’s what they want you to think… 2030 is a pipe dream.. Bit parochial, look around the world. It’s not just us.

otolith said: Lexington59 said: that’s what they want you to think… 2030 is a pipe dream.. Bit parochial, look around the world. It’s not just us. I look every day, think I’ll be sourcing cars from many other places under the current 2030 net zero which will never happen anyway horses t…

Jim1556 said: Not according to NOAA "the global average atmospheric carbon dioxide in 2020 was 412.5 parts per million (ppm for short), setting a new record high amount despite the economic slowdown due to the COVID-19 pandemic. In fact, the jump of 2.6 ppm over 2019 levels was the fifth-highest annual increase in NOAA's 63-year record." Full detail here: www.climate.gov/news-features/understanding-climat... I don't buy it (and won't while I have a choice!)... Edited by Jim1556 on Thursday 17th February 21:04 Just shows that man-made activity doesn't have much of an impact on global CO2

MG Ant said: Just shows that man-made activity doesn't have much of an impact on global CO2 You put £100 a month in your savings. This month you only put in £94. Are you surprised to see your balance still went up?

Whatever model the last all ICE 911 is... be it the ST, 992.2, or whatever else comes out as their last hurrah... those ones are going to be fought over like crazy, even base models.

ChrisW. said: Me .... I could make it work ... with a GR Yaris as the "do-it-all" would work. I love the idea ... but with the above limitations and opportunities. Green guilt is a terrible thing. Who in their right mind would go out and buy a £70/80k sportscar to then set about 'making it work'? For me my Boxster is a toy, one I choose to have that I could do without, to go where I want, when I want, how I want, it used to be called freedom back in the day, no doubt it can be found on Google if you look hard enough. If I drive to Italy (eg) I want to go the route I want and stop where and when I want, there it is that freedom word again. I wouldn't mind betting the current price of fuel is not by accident, it is helping the less financially astute see the benefits(?) of EVs and it is probably working. Banning ICEs is the only way they will get people to own them once the price of electricity levels up to the current fuel costs, and it will, surely that says it all.

Maybe they should licence this from Toyota... https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-1...

Last month of 2021, 33% of cars sold in the UK were plug-in. 25% were pure electric. For the whole year, the numbers are 19% and 12%. Yet there are still people in denial that the ICE is circling the drain, and more weirdly getting angry at the idea that anyone is working on giving us something that’s still fun in that world.

otolith said: I think sports cars will be the last lines to transition, especially amongst makers of ordinary volume stuff. Arguments maybe different for brands which want to be seen as cutting edge. Not so sure. Lotus for example are not developing anymore ICE after the imminent Emira release. Will Porsche do another 911 gen after the 992? Possibly one more last harah - hopefully mass gt3/4 production of NAs :-)

Charlie_1 said: have to ask have you actually driven a F4T powered car or are you just repeating the noise that a lot of morons make (particularly on this site) , I owned one for 3 years ,granted the sound isnt the best but the way it performed nothing wrong with that Yes I have...its power delivery is the killer, you mentioned noise, awful thing...yes its quite quick, but the engine spoils a lovely car.

BobM said: Hydrogen may well be the fuel of the future, but not the near future. It's probably still decades away. Maybe not? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Q7nAYjAJY

otolith said: Last month of 2021, 33% of cars sold in the UK were plug-in. 25% were pure electric. For the whole year, the numbers are 19% and 12%. Yet there are still people in denial that the ICE is circling the drain, and more weirdly getting angry at the idea that anyone is working on giving us something that’s still fun in that world. Very easily explained, once the shepherds have decided where the sheep will go that is the field they will end up in.

bosshog said: otolith said: I think sports cars will be the last lines to transition, especially amongst makers of ordinary volume stuff. Arguments maybe different for brands which want to be seen as cutting edge. Not so sure. Lotus for example are not developing anymore ICE after the imminent Emira release. They are, but they are electrifying their new range of SUVs first, then their sports cars.

981Boxess said: otolith said: Last month of 2021, 33% of cars sold in the UK were plug-in. 25% were pure electric. For the whole year, the numbers are 19% and 12%. Yet there are still people in denial that the ICE is circling the drain, and more weirdly getting angry at the idea that anyone is working on giving us something that’s still fun in that world. Very easily explained, once the shepherds have decided where the sheep will go that is the field they will end up in. The factors driving it are irrelevant - the fact is that it’s happening.

otolith said: 981Boxess said: otolith said: Last month of 2021, 33% of cars sold in the UK were plug-in. 25% were pure electric. For the whole year, the numbers are 19% and 12%. Yet there are still people in denial that the ICE is circling the drain, and more weirdly getting angry at the idea that anyone is working on giving us something that’s still fun in that world. Very easily explained, once the shepherds have decided where the sheep will go that is the field they will end up in. The factors driving it are irrelevant - the fact is that it’s happening. I think that has been established you are not telling anyone something new, not sure what point you are making if any.

981Boxess said: think that has been established you are not telling anyone something new, not sure what point you are making if any. That people insisting that the transition to EV can’t or won’t happen are in denial of what is happening outside their windows. Just that.

otolith said: 981Boxess said: I think that has been established you are not telling anyone something new, not sure what point you are making if any. That people insisting that the transition to EV can’t or won’t happen are in denial of what is happening outside their windows. Just that. I think the only conclusion that has come from this thread is some people would be happy to buy one (in theory) and some wouldn't (eg me) and nothing more than that. But with all these things money talks and words are cheap, so time will tell.

Like I said, I plan to keep my petrol car (one of them) until it’s a driveway ornament, but I can see that it’s crucial to the future of companies like Porsche (and Lotus) to find ways of using this technology to make cars people will buy for enjoyment. Otherwise they’re stuffed.

Charlie_1 said: Klippie said: I don't even want an electric lawn mower never mind Porsche sports car...as ever I'll be sticking with my lovely flat-6 987.2 Cayman S. Porsche have already shot themselves in the foot with the flat-4 beetle engine its an abomination of a thing, now a leccy motor...what the hell are they thinking about. Prices of flat-6 Boxster's and Cayman's will now rise. I have to ask have you actually driven a F4T powered car or are you just repeating the noise that a lot of morons make (particularly on this site) , I owned one for 3 years ,granted the sound isnt the best but the way it performed nothing wrong with that Its interesting how you say "nothing wrong it" same as a beko dishwasher I guess. Point is when peple buy a porsche sport car they don't expect to say 'there is nothing wrong with this'. I would expect to feel like wow this thing just feels and is brilliant in all aspects of driving pleasure. I haven't ever knocked the 4 pot or the 2.5. Its fine as far as I know, I wouldn't have one personally but hardly anyone praises them like you should for a car of this calibre when it comes to the engine.

I think he's obviously trolling. For some reason PH does seem to have more than its fair share of accounts who seem to post absolute nonsense. Interestingly enough Porsche actually seem to have sold more F4Ts than 981s over similar periods. From Porsche's own sales figures: They really "shot themselves in the foot" didn't they... But anyway, please ignore the obvious trolling and let's get back to EVs...

Chamon_Lee said: Charlie_1 said: Klippie said: I don't even want an electric lawn mower never mind Porsche sports car...as ever I'll be sticking with my lovely flat-6 987.2 Cayman S. Porsche have already shot themselves in the foot with the flat-4 beetle engine its an abomination of a thing, now a leccy motor...what the hell are they thinking about. Prices of flat-6 Boxster's and Cayman's will now rise. I have to ask have you actually driven a F4T powered car or are you just repeating the noise that a lot of morons make (particularly on this site) , I owned one for 3 years ,granted the sound isnt the best but the way it performed nothing wrong with that Its interesting how you say "nothing wrong it" same as a beko dishwasher I guess. Point is when peple buy a porsche sport car they don't expect to say 'there is nothing wrong with this'. I would expect to feel like wow this thing just feels and is brilliant in all aspects of driving pleasure. I haven't ever knocked the 4 pot or the 2.5. Its fine as far as I know, I wouldn't have one personally but hardly anyone praises them like you should for a car of this calibre when it comes to the engine. +1

Demhcs said: I think he's obviously trolling. For some reason PH does seem to have more than its fair share of accounts who seem to post absolute nonsense. Interestingly enough Porsche actually seem to have sold more F4Ts than 981s over similar periods. From Porsche's own sales figures: They really "shot themselves in the foot" didn't they... But anyway, please ignore the obvious trolling and let's get back to EVs... Not sure the sale of 2.1% more 718’s than 981’s ‘over similar periods’ is a major factor. Secondhand prices and why a 3 year older car trades for similar £ is maybe worth considering. All great cars and as we’ve all agreed before there’s no right or wrong. Happy Driving

981SPYGANG said: Not sure the sale of 2.1% more 718’s than 981’s ‘over similar periods’ is a major factor. Secondhand prices and why a 3 year older car trades for similar £ is maybe worth considering. All great cars and as we’ve all agreed before there’s no right or wrong. Happy Driving Used market values are crazy right now whatever the cylinder count. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/20/o... But will EVs have the same appeal...?

Lexington59 said: 981SPYGANG said: Not sure the sale of 2.1% more 718’s than 981’s ‘over similar periods’ is a major factor. Secondhand prices and why a 3 year older car trades for similar £ is maybe worth considering. All great cars and as we’ve all agreed before there’s no right or wrong. Happy Driving Used market values are crazy right now whatever the cylinder count. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/20/o... But will EVs have the same appeal...? Yes the world is a strange place at the mo! Re the secondhand cars I think it’s fair to say some of the ‘froth’ has disappeared. Cars <12 months still attracting strong bids/interest but older stuff has definitely come off. In November we sold the Mrs 19 plate Mini to Cazoo for £20,350…….I looked last week and their bid was £16,750. Re electric prices I’ve not a clue just know I don’t want one. Prob be like diesel years ago…..tax incentives to get us all in and then move the goal posts once we are all committed.

Chamon_Lee said: Charlie_1 said: Klippie said: I don't even want an electric lawn mower never mind Porsche sports car...as ever I'll be sticking with my lovely flat-6 987.2 Cayman S. Porsche have already shot themselves in the foot with the flat-4 beetle engine its an abomination of a thing, now a leccy motor...what the hell are they thinking about. Prices of flat-6 Boxster's and Cayman's will now rise. I have to ask have you actually driven a F4T powered car or are you just repeating the noise that a lot of morons make (particularly on this site) , I owned one for 3 years ,granted the sound isnt the best but the way it performed nothing wrong with that Its interesting how you say "nothing wrong it" same as a beko dishwasher I guess. Point is when peple buy a porsche sport car they don't expect to say 'there is nothing wrong with this'. I would expect to feel like wow this thing just feels and is brilliant in all aspects of driving pleasure. I haven't ever knocked the 4 pot or the 2.5. Its fine as far as I know, I wouldn't have one personally but hardly anyone praises them like you should for a car of this calibre when it comes to the engine. ok i probably wasn't clear enough , let me have another try , you say no one praises it ,not quite right, 90 out of a 100 complain about the sound it makes but none of them talks about the rather amazing performance which means they are either focusing on the wrong thing or they are repeating s t they heard or read which makes makes them morons(like the original poster), to be totally clear I owned one for 3 years and yes the sound isnt brilliant but its not that bad and when it drives the way it does (brilliantly) is that really a problem , this will annoy some people but it was a much better car than the 981 which preceded it and I owned one of those to so know the differance Edited by Charlie_1 on Monday 21st February 22:53 Edited by Charlie_1 on Monday 21st February 22:56

Charlie_1 said: ...............90 out of a 100 complain about the sound it makes but none of them talks about the rather amazing performance which means they are either focusing on the wrong thing or they are repeating s t they heard or read which makes makes them morons(like the original poster), to be totally clear I owned one for 3 years and yes the sound isnt brilliant but its not that bad and when it drives the way it does (brilliantly) is that really a problem Who are you to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't be focusing on when they decide to buy a sportscar? I wanted a sportscar that goes well and sounds good, I believe the 981 ticks both boxes (for me) so I bought one, there is more to driving a sportscar than just the quoted 0 - 60 time. I have also driven both, I had the choice of owning either, I bought what I preferred, If I wanted a 4 pot I would have and still could go out and buy one, I don't. The things that the 718 does better (eg PCM) matter less to me than the engine note. If the 6 pot didn't exist I probably would have settled for the 4 pot, it is still a fine car. Until someone else starts to pay for my cars I will continue to buy what I want, keep in mind that my opinion is all that matters to me, your opinion only matters to you. I would agree that there are some people that just repeat what they read because they are not bright enough to have a valid opinion of their own, that is them, don't tar everyone with the same brush.

Charlie_1 said: Chamon_Lee said: Charlie_1 said: Klippie said: I don't even want an electric lawn mower never mind Porsche sports car...as ever I'll be sticking with my lovely flat-6 987.2 Cayman S. Porsche have already shot themselves in the foot with the flat-4 beetle engine its an abomination of a thing, now a leccy motor...what the hell are they thinking about. Prices of flat-6 Boxster's and Cayman's will now rise. I have to ask have you actually driven a F4T powered car or are you just repeating the noise that a lot of morons make (particularly on this site) , I owned one for 3 years ,granted the sound isnt the best but the way it performed nothing wrong with that Its interesting how you say "nothing wrong it" same as a beko dishwasher I guess. Point is when peple buy a porsche sport car they don't expect to say 'there is nothing wrong with this'. I would expect to feel like wow this thing just feels and is brilliant in all aspects of driving pleasure. I haven't ever knocked the 4 pot or the 2.5. Its fine as far as I know, I wouldn't have one personally but hardly anyone praises them like you should for a car of this calibre when it comes to the engine. ok i probably wasn't clear enough , let me have another try , you say no one praises it ,not quite right, 90 out of a 100 complain about the sound it makes but none of them talks about the rather amazing performance which means they are either focusing on the wrong thing or they are repeating s t they heard or read which makes makes them morons(like the original poster), to be totally clear I owned one for 3 years and yes the sound isnt brilliant but its not that bad and when it drives the way it does (brilliantly) is that really a problem , this will annoy some people but it was a much better car than the 981 which preceded it and I owned one of those to so know the differance Edited by Charlie_1 on Monday 21st February 22:53 Edited by Charlie_1 on Monday 21st February 22:56 Haha I think you might be reaching there a little. I agree with 981Boxess its a bit of a stretch - both versions are very good no doubt and as usual porsche will have had small incremental improvements in some departments on the 718 as should be expected. Everyone should enjoy their cars Happy motoring.

Chamon_Lee said: as usual porsche will have had small incremental improvements in some departments on the 718 as should be expected. Happy motoring. "Small incremental improvements" is incorrect. There were actually some significant changes and upgrades which I have posted in the 718 vs 981 thread.

Demhcs said: "Small incremental improvements" is incorrect. There were actually some significant changes and upgrades which I have posted in the 718 vs 981 thread. Agree, and I think I may have posted in the other thread that I have cheated, and have one of each. My 981 doesn't leave the garage when there's any danger of salt or ice, but in a few weeks' time I'll have the unenviable problem of deciding which to hop into on any given morning. Can't wait! The 718 (manual base Cayman) is objectively better in almost all ways. The 981 has a shedload of undeniable "character", especially as it's in GT4 guise. Both put a massive grin on my face almost every trip, each for slightly different reasons. Getting back on topic, I'm pretty intrigued by the idea of an electric Cayman, and might get my name down for one early. Certainly not about to sell the GT4 so I can own an electric one, but there have been some impressive attempts at high performance battery electric sports cars already. Porsche, I am certain, will be looking for an opportunity to redefine the category with something that performs and handles, but is really refined in every way. The base 718 is kind of "nuts" in first gear at mid revs. I think the electric version might be similarly (if not more) entertaining. Liam Edited by LiamH66 on Wednesday 2nd March 23:37

LiamH66 said: Both put a massive grin on my face almost every trip, each for slightly different reasons. There it is in a nutshell, both cars are better than the other in certain ways, assuming a buyer is smart enough to know what they want from their own car, they can then go off and buy the one they want. Unfortunately they will then probably spend the rest of their ownership days listening to posters on here who for some absurd reason seem to think they know what car they should be driving better than they do. Maybe people just buy what they want/prefer, just a thought.